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Update on the DSC lawsuit

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,643 Community Moderator
    You know... other than Smoke... everyone in here advocating FOR the lawsuit is coming across as a crusader, whereas everyone saying its stupid and gonna get tossed out is actually being reasonable and providing viable counter arguments.

    Or am I the only one noticing this?
    And lazarus is making a very valid point.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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  • theyredeadjimtheyredeadjim Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    I wonder how long it will be before the NFL gets involved :p

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    valoreah wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...people don't care about truth or justice anymore...k

    No, they don't sadly. It's a sign of the times we live in with the rise of the millennial/snowflake generation.

    Well that's laughably stupid. A disregard for 'justice' has existed for as long as the concept of 'justice' has. A disregard for truth has existed for longer than the concept of truth.

    You know they used to hang witches right?​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,643 Community Moderator
    edited January 2019
    artan42 wrote: »
    You know they used to hang witches right?​​

    I thought that was burned at the stake?
    Also the "tests" they put suspected witches through were generally lethal as well. So innocent or not... you were dead.
    "If you survive being submerged in water you are a witch!"
    "Oh... she didn't survive. She's innocent and is now with God. NEXT!"
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 414 Community Moderator
    Okay, let's take it down a notch in here. Discussing the lawsuit is allowed. Insulting each other is not.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,643 Community Moderator
    Okay, let's take it down a notch in here. Discussing the lawsuit is allowed. Insulting each other is not.

    Might want to keep a close eye on this then. Subjects like this that are rather polarizing tends to devolve into camps sniping at each other.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • lazarus51166lazarus51166 Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So...assuming he did something wrong in the past, you are honestly claiming that HE stole the idea from essteedee?!? When he was PUBLICLY working on the game WAY before the release of essteedee?!? Seriously...that is what you want to imply with that first paragraph. There is exactly ZERO chance that he took the idea from essteedee. Even if he did steal the intro from Dune, that does not mean CBS gets to steal from him.

    No, that isn't what i'm saying. I'm saying that he has made deliberate attempts to try to make it look like cbs stole ideas from him. He changed several details retroactively to try to make things more in line with discovery. I'm also saying that he himself is a proven liar and thief of intellectual property, which proves nothing he claims is trustworthy. Particularly when you combine that knowledge with his retroactive changes to the game to try to give himself a reason to sue. The thing about liars is they tend to point fingers and accuse others of doing the things they themselves are guilty of

    In short? I'm saying he is a liar and trying to pull a scam. Likely hoping for a settlement offer
    While he does have to prove they did steal it from him, he does not have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a criminal case...but a civil one. Burden of proof is a lot less lax in these cases.

    The burden of proof in this case requires him to prove cbs both had knowledge of the game and deliberately ripped off his game in developing discovery. He can't do that and will never be able to do that. The burden on proof is on HIM to prove these things, not on them to disprove them, and in this case he must absolutely prove both occurred or he has no case.
    Also unlike in a criminal case, you can actually hold the fact that somebody will not give evidence against them. Like the lawyers for CBS being completely dodgy

    lol what? There is nothing 'dodgy' about anything the lawyers did. Do you think cbs - a multi billion dollar company, hires idiots as their legal team? But there very much is quite a bit dodgy about what the dev has been doing
    And you like many other people in this country have no idea what legal defamation is

    Oh really? Thats funny considering i've taken multiple people to court for defamation, and won every time. I guarantee you I have far more experience in that particular area than you do. But by all means, keep telling someone who has successfully taken multiple people to court for defamation, that they don't understand defamation
    There must be LEGAL malice. Legal malice means you must know 100% that what you said was false (good luck proving that from somebody just bring a suit against you)

    No. Malice doesn't mean what you think it means. As far as any court is concerned, attempting to TRIBBLE somebody over in a way that leads to or attempts to lead to your financial gain is more than sufficient malice to take him to court for defamation. I'll say it again - i've done it. It does not require '100%' proving you knew it was false when you made your defamatory statement. That would be absurd and virtually impossible in any case. All cbs has to do is prove he didn't make a reasonable effort to prove what he said was true before he said it. and he didn't. He not only was very quick to make the accusation, he took the steps of altering his own work and made statements to deliberately make people think they ripped him off AND took them to court to hammer in his point.

    In this case, all a court will care about in a defamation suit is whether this case was dismissed, which it will be. Plenty of people have sued for defamation after having a false claim against them dismissed. It happens all the time

    To put it simply, if you're going to accuse a multi billion dollar company of stealing your concept and making money off it, you had better have some pretty strong proof of it, or they can sue you for defamation. Its very much just that simple.
    Also there must be damages. Not legal fees...but actual damages

    Costing you a fortune in legal fees IS damages. That aside, shall we start with the fact that making public accusations to the point of dragging them into court results in significant damage to the reputation of the accused and therefore cost them money as a business? Hint: that alone is legally considered damages and grounds for monetary compensation. You are making it clear you don't know what defamation is or why you can sue people for it
    Look, the nuiances of the legal system is pretty damn complex...but the basics are not

    and the basics are: if you accuse somebody of stealing from you publicly you are giving them grounds for a defamation lawsuit. if you take them to court and lose, you're giving them further grounds, backed up by a court verdict that what you claimed was not true
    Being moved to discovery is a big deal in this case

    No it isn't. Not in the slightest. What it actually means is that the judge is saying: 'you use tartigrades and they use tartigrades and you are making an accusation that they stole stuff from you. now prove they stole from you within x number of days or the case is going to be dismissed on the spot'
    getting it dismissed entirely would have been bloody easy for CBS to do.

    No it wouldn't. If anything it would have violated the developers legal rights to dismiss it on the spot like that. Why? Because a plaintiff has the legal right to attempt to prove their case, no matter how legit the case may or may not be. In this case that means being able to access the development history of discovery, which would contain any such evidence. The developer can't gain access to that information in order to attempt to prove his case on his own, which requires entering the discovery phase, which requires cbs to turn over the relevant information relating to the development process of the series. It got that far because it literally had to
    All CBS had to do was tell a yarn about how they came about the story development in a semi believable manner and the case would have been dropped...like immediately

    Nope, and I just explained why this is not true. Because of the nature of the case, he can't even attempt to prove his case, which is his legal right, without entering the discovery phase to get access to the relevant info
    If they are not guilty...it's even easier as they could show various production notes and once again that is that

    Nope. That would allow them to cherry pick what information was provided to the court. The plaintiff has a legal right to access all relevant information, not just what notes cbs wants to show them at their discretion
    CBS does the one thing that makes them look guilty as all hell

    No it doesn't
    Does this mean CBS did it 100%? Once again no. But it sure LOOKS like it to any juror with any critical thinking skill

    No it doesn't
    It was bad...really bad. Luckily for CBS, it seem people these day seem rather incapable of any sort of critical thinking.

    No it wasn't. and considering what you've claimed so far I wouldn't point fingers about lacking critical thinking skills at anybody

    Yeah...so much wrong with this....

    You are so tribal on your side that things like facts mean nothing to you. No really. Legal fee is NOT DAMAGES. This is one of the reasons why our law system is so frakked up. Big companies can legal fee your case away because since they are not damages, you generally don't get them back, Only in the most extreme cases does the judge award legal fees as well as damages. Malice when in legal term does not mean malice. No once again really. If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer. Why? Because I did. And you are just plain wrong here. As for burden of proof...no...in civil cases there is fault. You assign fault to a claimant...or claimants in cases where there is a counter suit. The discovery phase isn't to get proof...it's to collect proof to assign fault. I have been in civil litigation before...you basically know nothing. Now if you can't prove that there was even a remote chance that they did it...well...yeah there is no fault and the case gets dismissed...but that was what this first hearing was about. One that really should have ended in the case getting dismissed if not for the terribly dodgy way CBS went about it. Read the transcript...even the judge said several times to the CBS lawyer that what they were saying wasn't relevant to the complaint and to get back to the complaint topic. So yeah...I don't like essteedee...and I was for this whole thing getting tossed out UNTIL this motion.

    LOL

    No. You have no idea what you are talking about. I'll say it again: in many cases, legal fees are part of the damages. Did you miss the part about personal experience being involved here? Only in extreme cases the judge awarding legal fees and damages? Are you serious? Try damn near every case where the plaintiff successfully proves their case. As part of the damages. Claiming you don't generally get your legal fees back in defamation suits is nuts and doesn't even make rational sense. How exactly do you expect one would be able to finance such a lawsuit in the first place if this were even remotely true? I'll say it again: been there done that, more times than I care to think about.

    Malice in legal terms explicitly means malice. That is to say intent to harm or do harm to the person who is suing you. Either explicitly financial harm, which is grounds for compensation, or other forms of damage such as physical, mental, emotional, or in this case, to your public image. All of those are grounds for monetary compensation because there was malice of intent. As in you deliberately tried to do harm to the person in some way or another. Which in this case, as I just said, is the developer trying, with malice of intent, to damage the public reputation of cbs by claiming they ripped off his property and made money off of it. Don't even try to tell me that there is no malice of intent behind falsely claiming a company is ripping you off and suing them.
    If you don't believe me, ask a lawyer. Why? Because I did

    I very much doubt that, because no competent lawyer would tell you what you just tried to tell me. Even a public defender is more competent than that
    As for burden of proof...no...in civil cases there is fault.

    and that fault gets assigned based on proof of wrong doing. if you think there is no burden of proof on a person making a claim in a civil case you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about
    The discovery phase isn't to get proof...it's to collect proof to assign fault.

    In other words its to get proof. Do you hear yourself? You need to reconsider what you just said. I explicitly explained to you why it went to the discovery phase and why it had to, in order to gain access to evidence, assuming any exists in the first place.
    I have been in civil litigation before...you basically know nothing

    Did I not just explain that i've taken people to court over defamation several times? So far nothing you have said has been accurate and you've talked in circles and directly contradicted yourself several times in that reply alone. I do know what i'm talking about. You clearly do not, as has already been explained to you
    Now if you can't prove that there was even a remote chance that they did it...well...yeah there is no fault and the case gets dismissed

    Remote chance? In this lawsuit, for this guy to win he is going to have to find some pretty concrete proof. Not a 'remote possibility' or its going to get dismissed as soon as the discovery phase is over
    One that really should have ended in the case getting dismissed if not for the terribly dodgy way CBS went about it

    No it shouldn't have, and I have now repeatedly explained to you exactly why it didn't. Because it legally couldn't be dismissed without allowing the plaintiff access to the information necessary to attempt to prove his case, which in this situation flat out requires direct access to it, and therefore requires entering the discovery phase. This isn't complicated. Nor did anything 'dodgy' go on. Do you not understand how lawyers operate in court or something?
    Read the transcript...even the judge said several times to the CBS lawyer that what they were saying wasn't relevant to the complaint and to get back to the complaint topic. So yeah...I don't like essteedee...and I was for this whole thing getting tossed out UNTIL this motion

    It will get tossed out, short of finding the equivalent of a smoking gun, he won't be able to prove a thing. I'll say it again, do you not understand how lawyers operate in court? They made a deflective attempt to get it dismissed that didn't work. Lawyers do that all the time. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the specifics of the case and the judge. There is absolutely nothing shady about it. Virtually nothing they said or did at this point would have prevented the judge from ordering the discovery phase to start. For the last time, It. Had. To. Go. That. Way. You might even consider it something of a technicality because it had to go that way, because of the specifics of the case
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,035 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    ..Legal fee is NOT DAMAGES...

    Legal fees can absolutely 100% be considered "damages".

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  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    Well as long as the concepts are not the exact same as those found in the game that is the one being the one suing. GIven how big discovery is, though and that you can buy it in stores now. I don't think they will be stopped directly on it. IF anything might have to do some changes. Stamats being bisexual instead of homosexual could work if one of the problems is a same sex couple that is like the one found in the game. The Tardigrade was only used for a couple of episodes, as a space creature. Tardigrades are real life creatures. As such copyright would not apply to them I think. GIving key differences between the two could work out for them. But I think it might be settled out of court. If anything, or the lawsuit would drag on till the one suing is forced to drop it but given there is a lot of dislike for discovery and cbs, for what they did to fan films and the klingons within discovery might help fund the tardigrade game makers lawsuit.

    So anything could happen. I do hope the both sides work it out so, discovery won't be forced off the air or something like that. But yeah I think Cbs should have handled it better then they did. As there is similarities between the game and the show but also differences. It might be some of those making the show borrowed or remixed elements found in the video game that is sueing Cbs Discovery. But the thing about Movies pretty much everything is a remix of something. Starwars the first three movies are known for doing it. Using stuff from other movies in their scenes like Leia and Luke holding onto a rope to swing to the other side came from another movie along with other things. Could this lawsuit succeed int the sueing parties favor yes. I don't think any of the big networks are worried about this happening. But could it happen yes it can. So Cbs should be prepared for it happening yes.
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 637 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Well as long as the concepts are not the exact same as those found in the game that is the one being the one suing. GIven how big discovery is, though and that you can buy it in stores now. I don't think they will be stopped directly on it. IF anything might have to do some changes. Stamats being bisexual instead of homosexual could work if one of the problems is a same sex couple that is like the one found in the game. The Tardigrade was only used for a couple of episodes, as a space creature. Tardigrades are real life creatures. As such copyright would not apply to them I think. GIving key differences between the two could work out for them. But I think it might be settled out of court. If anything, or the lawsuit would drag on till the one suing is forced to drop it but given there is a lot of dislike for discovery and cbs, for what they did to fan films and the klingons within discovery might help fund the tardigrade game makers lawsuit.

    So anything could happen. I do hope the both sides work it out so, discovery won't be forced off the air or something like that. But yeah I think Cbs should have handled it better then they did. As there is similarities between the game and the show but also differences. It might be some of those making the show borrowed or remixed elements found in the video game that is sueing Cbs Discovery. But the thing about Movies pretty much everything is a remix of something. Starwars the first three movies are known for doing it. Using stuff from other movies in their scenes like Leia and Luke holding onto a rope to swing to the other side came from another movie along with other things. Could this lawsuit succeed int the sueing parties favor yes. I don't think any of the big networks are worried about this happening. But could it happen yes it can. So Cbs should be prepared for it happening yes.

    There is ZERO chance that essteedee will be taken off the air or they need to change anything. If he win, he gets a boatload of money. So if you like essteedee, there is no threat of it going away. Well at least from this. From it being just plain bad...yeah that can still happen.

    From what I'm getting at hes trying to get it to stop being sold as well.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,643 Community Moderator
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Also the only place I am even hearing about this attempt to stop sales is from the midnight's edge circle of morons...which I wouldn't take with mountain of salt.

    I'll see your mountain of salt and raise you a PLANET of salt.
    latest?cb=20180404165219
    ;)
    Seriously... ANYTHING Midnight's Edge seems to be highly biased and unreliable.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,026 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Also the only place I am even hearing about this attempt to stop sales is from the midnight's edge circle of morons...which I wouldn't take with mountain of salt.

    I'll see your mountain of salt and raise you a PLANET of salt.
    latest?cb=20180404165219
    ;)
    Seriously... ANYTHING Midnight's Edge seems to be highly biased and unreliable.

    Let's be fair here...

    See, here's the thing Cold. THe difference between Midnight's Edge's bias and the bias of the DSC fans you're talking to here (and, in truth, most of the DSC haters here too) is that we try to be fair and balanced. Bias is unavoidable (which is why my uni has a minimum of six different authors for a history essay), but the point is to attempt to be balanced - to weigh both sides. I, and the other DSC fans to whom I refer (you know who they are) all acknowledge DSCs flaws (the Klingon redesign, the overly dramatic Burnham redemption story, the *twitch* photosensitive eyes...

    By contrast, ME doesn't even attempt to find anything positive in DSC. In fact, the YouTube community in general has gotten to the point where I can't even watch a video on the technical merits of the Galaxy-Class without a video on how the Federation is an alien-dominated dystopia and how women/homosexuals/liberals/communists/SJWs have destroyed Star Trek coming up in my recommended list: despite me actively avoiding anything even remotely political or related to DSC (because I don't find angry rants entertaining - I find them depressing: that's how I respond to my own anger - I become depressed).

    That's why ME is a hack: he's not a journalist, or a balanced critic - he's a YouTube personality. And balanced opinions don't get views or likes - hate-filled ranting and incoherent screeching about everything bad does. Even Trekyards are guilty of this. The difference is that since the two presenters on Trekyards have different views on DSC, and aren't Sith-level passionate about Star Trek (yes, I know that phrase is heresy), there is an attempt at balance in their content.

    (I include Trekyards as an example just to give an example of a balanced anti-DSC party.)
  • lazarus51166lazarus51166 Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Well as long as the concepts are not the exact same as those found in the game that is the one being the one suing. GIven how big discovery is, though and that you can buy it in stores now. I don't think they will be stopped directly on it. IF anything might have to do some changes. Stamats being bisexual instead of homosexual could work if one of the problems is a same sex couple that is like the one found in the game. The Tardigrade was only used for a couple of episodes, as a space creature. Tardigrades are real life creatures. As such copyright would not apply to them I think. GIving key differences between the two could work out for them. But I think it might be settled out of court. If anything, or the lawsuit would drag on till the one suing is forced to drop it but given there is a lot of dislike for discovery and cbs, for what they did to fan films and the klingons within discovery might help fund the tardigrade game makers lawsuit.

    So anything could happen. I do hope the both sides work it out so, discovery won't be forced off the air or something like that. But yeah I think Cbs should have handled it better then they did. As there is similarities between the game and the show but also differences. It might be some of those making the show borrowed or remixed elements found in the video game that is sueing Cbs Discovery. But the thing about Movies pretty much everything is a remix of something. Starwars the first three movies are known for doing it. Using stuff from other movies in their scenes like Leia and Luke holding onto a rope to swing to the other side came from another movie along with other things. Could this lawsuit succeed int the sueing parties favor yes. I don't think any of the big networks are worried about this happening. But could it happen yes it can. So Cbs should be prepared for it happening yes.

    There is ZERO chance that essteedee will be taken off the air or they need to change anything. If he win, he gets a boatload of money. So if you like essteedee, there is no threat of it going away. Well at least from this. From it being just plain bad...yeah that can still happen.

    That isn't how it works at all. If he were somehow able to prove they stole those concepts from him, he very much could force them to change those aspects if he wanted them to
    Even if he proves they stole every aspect of his game word for word, that won't happen. They give him damages and that is all.

    False. Not that I believe they stole anything, but assuming for the sake of argument they did 'steal every aspect of his game word for word' and he could prove such, that would be blatant theft from an IP he owns. He would have every legal right to force them to shut down production, until they either removed or changed the infringing material. They could not force him to accept any payment. He wouldn't even have to take them to court again to do it, he would only need to serve them with a cease and desist order for IP infringement. You know, the same thing cbs themselves has done a fair bit of with several unauthorized star trek projects. Disney as well with star wars. Thats what you have the right to do when someone tries to steal your property and pass it off as theirs for financial gain. If they failed to comply at that point they would be looking at a civil suit and criminal prosecution
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,005 Arc User
    So let’s take the spin out of it....Abdin now has to prove that Discovery got the idea from him. You cannot be sued for coincidence. They have to prove that Discovery stole from him. I admit I like Discovery and may be biased but I don’t see how that’s a good thing for Abdin.
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  • lazarus51166lazarus51166 Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited January 2019
    I'm sorry...but I'm not sure where you are getting the essteedee fans are any less biased and rabid than midnight's edge. Hell, we have one right here in this thread who thinks that it's okay for CBS to go after Aziz just because he is suing them and he personally thinks there is no merit to the case

    Excuse me? It IS ok for cbs to go after him for defamation. I explained this to you multiple times. and there is no merit to the case. This has also been explained to you, multiple times by multiple people.

    You better stop and take a good look at your own behavior before you go accusing others of being 'based and rabid' you have proven you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about and are now trying to act like a twit with sideways attacks like that
    Despite the fact that a judge disagreed enough to allow the discovery phase to start. If there really was no merit to the case, it would have been dismissed. Or not even REMOTELY attempting talk about why CBS is not using concurrent development in this motion when that would have ended this whole thing right now

    Dude, stop. Just stop. You are making a complete fool of yourself. You don't listen to a word anybody says to you. I explained to you multiple times why BY LAW the judge had to allow it to proceed to discover because BY LAW a plaintiff has a guaranteed legal right to attempt to make their case, which in this particular situation can't be done without information that can only be provided via information obtained in the discover phase. It would not have mattered in the slightest what cbs's lawyer tried to argue

    This is not complicated, you need to stop talking nonsense and listen to things when they are explained to you
    So let’s take the spin out of it....Abdin now has to prove that Discovery got the idea from him. You cannot be sued for coincidence. They have to prove that Discovery stole from him.

    Exactly. He has to prove it, and unless there is some kind of smoking gun flat out talking about the game in some writers notes somewhere that turns up during discovery, he doesn't stand a chance of proving anything
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,026 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Also the only place I am even hearing about this attempt to stop sales is from the midnight's edge circle of morons...which I wouldn't take with mountain of salt.

    I'll see your mountain of salt and raise you a PLANET of salt.
    latest?cb=20180404165219
    ;)
    Seriously... ANYTHING Midnight's Edge seems to be highly biased and unreliable.

    Let's be fair here...

    See, here's the thing Cold. THe difference between Midnight's Edge's bias and the bias of the DSC fans you're talking to here (and, in truth, most of the DSC haters here too) is that we try to be fair and balanced. Bias is unavoidable (which is why my uni has a minimum of six different authors for a history essay), but the point is to attempt to be balanced - to weigh both sides. I, and the other DSC fans to whom I refer (you know who they are) all acknowledge DSCs flaws (the Klingon redesign, the overly dramatic Burnham redemption story, the *twitch* photosensitive eyes...

    By contrast, ME doesn't even attempt to find anything positive in DSC. In fact, the YouTube community in general has gotten to the point where I can't even watch a video on the technical merits of the Galaxy-Class without a video on how the Federation is an alien-dominated dystopia and how women/homosexuals/liberals/communists/SJWs have destroyed Star Trek coming up in my recommended list: despite me actively avoiding anything even remotely political or related to DSC (because I don't find angry rants entertaining - I find them depressing: that's how I respond to my own anger - I become depressed).

    That's why ME is a hack: he's not a journalist, or a balanced critic - he's a YouTube personality. And balanced opinions don't get views or likes - hate-filled ranting and incoherent screeching about everything bad does. Even Trekyards are guilty of this. The difference is that since the two presenters on Trekyards have different views on DSC, and aren't Sith-level passionate about Star Trek (yes, I know that phrase is heresy), there is an attempt at balance in their content.

    (I include Trekyards as an example just to give an example of a balanced anti-DSC party.)

    I'm sorry...but I'm not sure where you are getting the essteedee fans are any less biased and rabid than midnight's edge.

    I'm not surprised, because that's not what I wrote. I said the DSC fans you are talking to here are trying to be fair and balanced.
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