Has something changed in space combat?

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  • warpangel
    warpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    kiralyn wrote: »
    [...]
    (of course, one can also argue that the STO game mechanics have gotten so complex with so many interacting parts, that even the devs don't really have a clue how it all works. Which means they can't really reign it in.)

    They could, by simply putting a hard cap on the damage a ship or ground character does'per second. It would be crude, but it would work.

    Then again, as many have said now, apparently all Cryptic games are like that, and when that is the case, there can only be one logical conclusion: They WANT it that way.

    I guess that means they earn more from those few who spend a lot than from those lots who only spend a little.

    Pretty much ALL F2P games lives on the back of whales over the casuals...barring phone games where casuals can still keep a game alive...but even than many of those need whales just as much as the casuals. So any suggestion that says TRIBBLE the whales for the casuals ain't gonna work...period.
    It isn't any different in the mobile space. The only F2P games that run on casuals are the ones that are mostly ad-supported. The rate of people who pay anything at all for F2P is very low, and the way they make up for that is by selling huge loads of stuff to the few people with more money than they can use.
  • pfft2
    pfft2 Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    kiralyn wrote: »
    [...]
    (of course, one can also argue that the STO game mechanics have gotten so complex with so many interacting parts, that even the devs don't really have a clue how it all works. Which means they can't really reign it in.)

    They could, by simply putting a hard cap on the damage a ship or ground character does'per second. It would be crude, but it would work.

    Then again, as many have said now, apparently all Cryptic games are like that, and when that is the case, there can only be one logical conclusion: They WANT it that way.

    I guess that means they earn more from those few who spend a lot than from those lots who only spend a little.

    Pretty much ALL F2P games lives on the back of whales over the casuals...barring phone games where casuals can still keep a game alive...but even than many of those need whales just as much as the casuals. So any suggestion that says TRIBBLE the whales for the casuals ain't gonna work...period. Not only that, this can doesn't even TRIBBLE over it's casuals in favor of the whales. You can get elite ready ships with no money spent and very little time investment. Like say 60 hours or so invested. You can have a 100+k ship with like 150 hours invested or so. Now that doesn't mean YOU will be elite ready or do 100+k damage. Just means your ship CAN do it. I have seen scimmies do as low as ~500 dps...in a none mega DPS run. That ship with the base gear it comes with should be able to do 10 times that. And considering that I saw all cannon fire, s/he did not have the base gear. So BEST s/he is able to extract 10% of what a ship can do. More likely s/he is doing something like 5%...and at worst fractions of a percent if s/he is using an actual DPS build.

    Emphasis mine. Well said.

    People don't like hearing that their excuses aren't valid. Of course by that I don't mean to say that all players who can't crack six figures need an excuse; there's nothing wrong with playing the game casually - but there is a certain segment of the game's population that simultaneously sucks at the game and believes themselves to be experts at it. This type can frequently be seen accusing high-end teammates of hacking, or smugly insisting on the forums that DPSers are helpless on maps that have non-DPS winning conditions. Presumably they think that high-end players are smart enough to optimize their ships and piloting, but too stupid to figure out how to close a portal.

    In any case, the notion that STO should impose harsh DPS caps is idiotic, and not just because of whales. Pretty much every MMO since the dawn of the industry has featured a significant character progression system, since long before F2P and cash shops came into being. A large part of what keeps players interested is the idea that they can make their toons stronger.

    As far as whales go, in my experience the whales largely aren't powergamers. Whales are usually chasing aesthetics, and/or they're collectors/completionists. That's not to say that there isn't some overlap between the two groups, but the popular belief that the highest end players are also tossing thousands of dollars at the game is a misconception, probably born of jealousy. DPSers strike me more as the types to figure out what are the best purchases to optimize performance, and then to figure out how to get them in the easiest/cheapest way possible. I personally know many of the best DPSers, and most of them got the bulk of their assets through optimized grinding and/or market PvP.

    Where we (again, referring generically to those dirty powergaming DPSers) add value to the game, is in spreading build/mechanics info to the playerbase, helping people learn/enjoy the progression system - hell, helping them learn how to play in the first place; STO does precious little to educate its players. I don't wanna overstate our importance, but I think that's a pretty big help to the community, and thus to Cryptic's bottom line.
  • alcaatraz
    alcaatraz Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Edit: fixed some spelling and grammar

    QFT. The enemy damage output in elite is mostly fine, however the problem is those times when the enemies decide to spike, horribly high. No ship in game can withstand a TS of 6 torps, each dealing 100k post-res dmg through shields, without the help of either immunities or something like Invincible. Same with WCBs doing 200k through shields, each. A dedicated healer can't react to those spikes either. It's especially bad in places like HSE's phase 2 where apparently aggro doesn't matter too much, no matter how much tank tries. I've seen some unfortunate cases of extremely high-end teams getting wiped against fights with pickles, as they decided that it's right time to attack everyone *but* the tank, and to add extra insult to injury, they pop FBP at that time too.

    Hm yea, I have been curious about that HSE stage 2 too. :/

    Do the unships use torpedo spreads as well which not only hit the tank but others in team at the same time? You know much like we do with the player’s spread reaching multiple targets.

    What do your more pro (than I am) tank friends think here, matter of fact aggro catching problem or more like nasty simultaneous attacks? :(
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    STO's problems are two fold in this situation.

    1) There's little actual in-game incentive to push your build harder, to achieve those big numbers, or fast times on missions. Outside of earning more resources to buy more powercreep what do ou gain from having a big DPS score, or completing Korfez or even HSE? Nothing. You don't gain a special title, or a nice shield cosmetic, or a unique boff for pushing yourself.
    STO consists of dungeons with no prizes at the end, so no wonder people don't feel the need to really push themselves.

    2) Everyone (top 1% and newbies alike) get dumped into the exact same content and instances. There's no real place for most players to run TFO's these days with dead channels and lack of good players to run and help in missions. So everyone is lumped into the Adv TFO's using the random system. That's like putting go-carts on the same track as F1 cars and expecting everyone to be in the same situation.

    ----

    So, I don't think I'm one of the best tanks in the game, though people keep telling me that, I do have a really long history with the subject, which I'm going to talk about here a bit.


    I started playing just a tad after Delta Rising (that november I believe). I had fun, got through the story, did fairly well (didn't die much), joined a growing fleet and helped get marks...and then I got to level 50 and had reputations open up. Well...elite marks as we now call them we're things you needed to get gear. So what do I do?

    I join for CSA, my very first Advanced queue...and we failed...we failed HARD. Now it could have been others it could have been me I don't know, there was no way for me to tell how I was doing...and someone in team chat was going on about how we all sucked or something or other.

    I decided then to start looking into how the game actually worked, in a maths sense, which I think is the key defining point in my STO 'career' (if you wish to call it that). I read up r/stobuilds for ages. I read threads going back years and years and years (back to when plasma consoles were adding flat plasma damage, the eras of the first tanks, and so on). I read about people I fly with and chit-chat now, and in my search came across tanks, and I really liked the idea. My fleet mates were dying all the time and if I could keep them alive they would enjoy the game better.

    So I got a cruiser, some idea what I was doing, and I probably pugged ISA 100000 times over a few months, constantly trying to get better at being a tank. Grabbed a parser and started deep diving logs. Iterative testing is something I'm rather good at if I don't say so myself, and it payed off. I got noticed in a pug, I made friends who do HSE all the time, these same people I had read about on reddit. They were truly amazing, I was getting heals, I wasn't dead, I had no idea what was happening.

    Time goes on, I do more, I learn, and by S11 I was starting to get into my own and main tank HSE. It was exciting...and once again I died and we failed horribly, but instead of being attacked I was congratulated for doing well...even though we all died and failed. It was a small ego booster that if this is how they acted when we lost imagine how happy they would be if we actually won!

    S11.5 rolls around, we get a taunt and more damage. AW2 changes the tank game, tanks can do more and do better. FBP is discovered. DPSers can do more and better, numbers go up. S12 arrives and the foray into exotics starts, catapulting the game into an endless string of compound buffs.

    Then we get hit with S13 and 90% of everything a tank was built on from here gets removed from being slottable (because in the world of tanking you really need to live on the edge to stay alive and hold threat). Healing power is reduced and it becomes harder to tank. Once again an exciting time. S13.5 comes around and there's some weird things happening. This is when I noticed drains were broke (and it took a year to fix), and here is when I notice some very strange interactions with threat.

    Threat in S13.5, with many many other unintended side effects, was 'off'. You could feel it. We had already removed most of the +th sources but this was a change that happened in a day. I don't know how to describe it other than a taunt which normally would have held the attention of something no longer did. This is something we've been stuck with since then.

    ----

    Did I have to give my entire sto history; not really, but context is for kings after all. So if I say that threat in the current state is wonky, weird, and doesn't seem to have any consistency, I want you to know that I do have some experience in this topic. And threat in its current state is indeed wonky, weird, and doesn't seem to have any consistency.

    ----

    Now, with respect to the other discussion of the game being too hard and the difference of opinion here, I think the very high end / late game players are suffering from a diluted sense that a new/early players have, one both of skill and tried and tested ideas and experiences.

    HSE is no longer difficult for me, I know the nuances and timing and thresholds for when to heal, where to be when activating certain abilities, and the flow the mission has. ISA I can fly with a stopwatch, my minimap, and my tray, as can several other queues.

    New players and people who haven't pushed their own numeric performance to the extremes don't tend to have this. They play for their fun to actually be engrossed in the game, for the visuals, for the canon, or just lack the incredibly fast paced atmosphere high level / end game players have. This isnt to say that a long time player is an end game player either. I love some people but dear lord I wouldn't want them in a HSE run where we're trying for numbers, and their happy with how they play and it's fine.

    What I guess I'm trying to say is that durability and the nuances needed in dealing damage are something people who try and teach then game sometimes forget about, since it's no longer an issue for us. We've been doing this for so long we forget how great of a contributor to durability Ablative Shell can be, or how simple the idea of using attack pattern beta/delta/omega with weapon enhancements might be, or how the DRR curve is absolute garbage when you want more resistances. We talk big games about how the net difference between types is like 5% from the top to the bottom we don't stop to think about the experiences we had to get here. My first time in HSE was so overloaded with heal consoles I wouldn't even use the same level now but I still did nothing compared to the people around me.

    The game is centrally driven by DPS. The last real 'puzzle' TFO we had was Assault on Terrok Nor; and we all know how great that went. I don't think the developers wanted this but its how the game has become. To get the best rewards you need to "do x in y seconds", which often involves killing everything in that time, or dealing z damage in y time (z/y = 'minimum DPS', this is actually a really complicated thing as you need to account for movement times, spawn times, if you die or not, and if you want some buffer room or not).

    Now in the face of overwhelming criticisms of "We don't like DPS focused queues" we get time gated things like swarm and SB1. It's not DPS driven...but its time gated.

    ----

    We all play the same game. I don't like fighting with other people, and I don't like tense conflicts. The player damage disparity only grows with each nerf (see S13), with the people with experience and knowledge playing right beside people who have no clue to their own numbers and not a care about it. The ideal situation would be more relatively obtainable sources of higher DPS boosters (mk XII to mk XV is a really big one), durability boosters (Energy Refrequencers Buff is a good one for that), and it would be great if the game did more to help people keep track of their own numbers or teach them more on how queues work or how to do them...but the game doesn't.

    There was an exercise into this a while ago with getting players to help out but the event was handled terribly by cryptic and even pushed these high end players out more.

    I think at the end of the day people, all of us, need to think not only about the experiences of others, and weigh the voices of others according to how we believe their voices weight should be. That guy in the queue telling you to 'get gud'...how much does his opinion and words really carry, and if you focus on it will it create the game experience more negative to you? It's up to all of us to play the game how we want, if some of us want to seek to get the highest of high numbers than so be it. If others want to space-barbie their characters than so be it; but if you really really really want to get the high numbers than go ask for help, and be patient. All things worthwhile are worth waiting for after all.
    --- @alcaatraz || I make tanks and do crazy maths stuffs ---
    "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    Hey @alcaatraz :)

    Thank you for the good post! I usualy don't log into forums during weekend but had to after reading it on my phone.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • seaofsorrows
    seaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,889 Arc User
    Great post @alcaatraz

    Thanks for that! :smile:
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • thlaylierah
    thlaylierah Member Posts: 2,979 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."

    I thought something had deslotted somewhere, good to know it's the game.
    Post edited by thlaylierah on
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Apart from the fact that nobody sa
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."
    [...]

    Or "it's as if you had slotted less expensive gear". :smiley:

    You dont get it and never will as you still bring in the same arguments as 2 years ago. Cryptic made it clear in October 2014 what they expect from thier players if they want to have a satisfactory game experience in endgame PvE. All this expencive gear (like invincible or whatever) is not there for us to take it easy. Its there for us to increase the expectations we have towards each other and ultimately for ourselves.

    Those who do their homework get rewarded as they can freely choose what to do in game and with whom to do it with. Those who don't can't and will end up being upset as others beat them on every battelfield of choice, much like Tune did in your pitiful patrol.

    I can and do challenge myself everywhere in game with whatever I do and with everybody I play. That's fun and will keep on beeing fun!

    Sadly you can't and I feel so sorry for you and only bother replying to you because of it.
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • revolution0214
    revolution0214 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Well said @alcaatraz

    If you still like tanking and want to pull more threat, then take a look at the trait from the Narendra class ship, History will remember, I think you'll like it.

    As one of the best tanks in the game, Jay is more than aware of this trait.

    I can also confirm it's massively beneficial for tanks as it increases threat generation, a small amount of damage (up to 30% Cat1 all damage), and increases Regen/Hull Cap.

    At max stacks, it's giving twice the amount of threat generation as a single embassy console, which makes it excellent for a tank wanting to ensure comfortably drawing aggro.
    ---@revolution0214 | Certified Clueless | Zone, Forums, and Facebook tri-branded Top Fleet Player™ |

    I'm pretty sure that even if you've not equipped AP but are doing x17 elitist hax dps, you're actually using AP. It's another coding quirk.
    verified by the forums, zone and top fleet players.
    -Nirett

    So TIL that SA didn't go from being a T H I C C damage bonus to a thicc damage bonus. Rather, what happened is that it went from T H I C C to merely flat. I guess I should be happy it was not turned into a flatter bonus. That would have been even more nerd-rage worthy. -Anonymous
  • tunebreaker
    tunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    [quote]As [Jay/alcaatraz is] one of the best tanks in the game,[/quote]

    Not to mention the foremost expert when it comes to the game mechanics in their entirety. And the pilot of an amazing T6 Amby build. So yeah, just like Rev mentioned, I believe it's safe to say he's aware of the trait and it's benefits. :D

    Edit: Vanilla forums need to git gud and not break the formatting.
  • revolution0214
    revolution0214 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    As [Jay/alcaatraz is] one of the best tanks in the game,

    Not to mention the foremost expert when it comes to the game mechanics in their entirety. And the pilot of an amazing T6 Amby build. So yeah, just like Rev mentioned, I believe it's safe to say he's aware of the trait and it's benefits. :D

    Edit: Vanilla forums need to git gud and not break the formatting.

    I also agree that the forums need to git gud...
    ---@revolution0214 | Certified Clueless | Zone, Forums, and Facebook tri-branded Top Fleet Player™ |

    I'm pretty sure that even if you've not equipped AP but are doing x17 elitist hax dps, you're actually using AP. It's another coding quirk.
    verified by the forums, zone and top fleet players.
    -Nirett

    So TIL that SA didn't go from being a T H I C C damage bonus to a thicc damage bonus. Rather, what happened is that it went from T H I C C to merely flat. I guess I should be happy it was not turned into a flatter bonus. That would have been even more nerd-rage worthy. -Anonymous
  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    I still think THE problem is : mixing players into one big gigantic mish mash.
    Even the program is having problems scaling with it.

    I don't think the programmer has the tools to adjust to the nuances of it all. Too much variance.
    So, the system sets it up as sometimes too easy, and sometimes impossible.
    How are the players to adjust themselves to it....up or down?

    You guys are arguing:
    Players at the high end gear need to come down.
    OR players at the lower end gear need to come up.
    But I don't think it would help, so much.

    How do players know what to do when there is no consistency?
    The NPC could kill you in one instance...be a cake walk the next? LOL!
    I am even seeing this in solo stuff. It is weird...the program is not right.
    Somewhere.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • where2r1
    where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Did they need to make this random system: random with Normal, random with Advanced, random with Elite?
    That way the scaling could stay level across the board? Then the system wouldn't be dealing with so much variance. I don't know.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
  • bendalek
    bendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Apart from the fact that nobody sa
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."
    [...]

    Or "it's as if you had slotted less expensive gear". :smiley:

    You dont get it and never will as you still bring in the same arguments as 2 years ago. Cryptic made it clear in October 2014 what they expect from thier players if they want to have a satisfactory game experience in endgame PvE. All this expencive gear (like invincible or whatever) is not there for us to take it easy. Its there for us to increase the expectations we have towards each other and ultimately for ourselves.

    Those who do their homework get rewarded as they can freely choose what to do in game and with whom to do it with. Those who don't can't and will end up being upset as others beat them on every battelfield of choice, much like Tune did in your pitiful patrol.

    I can and do challenge myself everywhere in game with whatever I do and with everybody I play. That's fun and will keep on being fun!

    Sadly you can't and I feel so sorry for you and only bother replying to you because of it.

    Yikes that one of the most sanctimonious and elitist posts I've read in a while.

    It may surprise you to learn that some people actually play games for this thing called "fun", and being vaped by OP enemies repeatedly, isn't fun. Neither is spending more hours in game than with family friends and/or work just to "grind" the gear at end-game, or spend half their wage to do it easier. I think perhaps most players would like the "option" at least to have a "fun" time, rather than what some call "challenging".

    If you want to be an elitist min-maxer, then good for you, but why should your opinion be the only valid one? It seems from my observation in game (and from the thousands of posts similar to this one over the years), that most players don't really think that way, which is yet another reason why the "tougher" TFO's were virtually dead, except for pre-mades, and why it's nigh on impossible to get more than 1 or 2 people in places like the Tzenkethi BZ/TFO's or even the Terran BZ or Iconian TFO's.

    The problem (and difficulty for the devs/programmes) is that higher level players, i.e. lvl 65 with good gear/skills, will just run "normal" TFO's to simply grind out daily marks, because ... well .. they don't want a challenge! They purposely spend time and money on the game to feel like a Space God, and the game goes out of it's way - narrative/story wise - to make you feel like one.

    Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be "challenging" games/content - heck some games/companies have made their entire reputation around "challenging" - But that's what the "Elite" TFO's were designed for, but this weird scaling that's been going on since the RTFO system dropped is a major bug, and it does need looking into ... Although I don't know what can be done to fix it (maybe a "gear score" system like they have in NW?)

    I'm not sure I do or don't trust Cryptic to resolve it though. Sometime they get stuff right, and other times ... well.
    Oh, hoho hohhhhh, Oh,, hoho, hohhhhh
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  • tunebreaker
    tunebreaker Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »

    Yikes that one of the most sanctimonious and elitist posts I've read in a while.

    It may surprise you to learn that some people actually play games for this thing called "fun"

    >Calls Pete's (totally reasonable and true, I might add) post "sanctimonious and elitist".
    >Implies that "elitist DPSers" don't play this game for fun.

    The Dunning-Kruger effect is real.
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Apart from the fact that nobody sa
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."
    [...]

    Or "it's as if you had slotted less expensive gear". :smiley:

    You dont get it and never will as you still bring in the same arguments as 2 years ago.

    No, you don't get it. You really don't.

    There is no fundamental difference at all between fighting an NPC that does 1,000 points of damage per second with a ship that has 50% resistances and one that does 500 points of damage per second with a ship that has 0% resistances.

    It's a con job: You get to buy expensive gear in order to beat artificially inflated foes, but the actual skill you need is not changed. Sure, you need to investigate all the new shiny gear, and be able to judge it, possibly adjust your firing sequence a bit. But in the end, you are playing a mathematically equivalent (or in other words: basically the same) game, just for more money - or time, if you grind it all.
    [...]
    I can and do challenge myself everywhere in game with whatever[...]

    So here's a challenge for you: Make a new Jem'Hadar. Don't give him any traits, gear, boffs, or ships that he doesn't start with, and don't upgrade anything!, just play him fresh out of the box at level 60 as if you were on a new account - you can rearrange the gear he starts with between ship and shuttle, though. And queue up for a HSE with four others who do the same challenge. Takes, what, 30 minutes in total to do this from creating the character to playing the HSE until it's over.

    Can you beat it? No, of course you cannot. No skill in the world, not even yours (even if it is as high as you say, or higher) will change the math.

    Now, take the same team and do HSA. You will find that it feels a lot more tense than HSE with your main captain. I would expect a seasoned player such as yourself to succeed in HSA under such circumstances, though probably not without deaths, and possibly not with all optionals. In the end, you'll see that you could have done better here and there, and maybe work on that. You'll have as much fun as you had with all the gear and additional specialization points.

    And then you will have really gotten the meaning my above remark. All for maybe an hour of game time.

    For as long as the conditions on a map stay the same the outcome if it is already decided b4 you enter. You can force some excitement out of not knowing what team you get and of course you can borderline edge it by gimping yourself when you do but it wont matter as far as the outcome is concerned. All my 12 toons, including my latest jemi had to learn that lesson.

    You can keep on running in circles about this topic faster and faster but it will not help you break the loop. If all you contribute to the excitment of others at the danger of devaluing this forum as a whole for some.

    This makes me even more sad but I cannot change it anyway it seems. ;)
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »

    Yikes that one of the most sanctimonious and elitist posts I've read in a while.

    It may surprise you to learn that some people actually play games for this thing called "fun"

    >Calls Pete's (totally reasonable and true, I might add) post "sanctimonious and elitist".
    >Implies that "elitist DPSers" don't play this game for fun.

    The Dunning-Kruger effect is real.

    :D
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    bendalek wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Apart from the fact that nobody sa
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."
    [...]

    Or "it's as if you had slotted less expensive gear". :smiley:

    You dont get it and never will as you still bring in the same arguments as 2 years ago. Cryptic made it clear in October 2014 what they expect from thier players if they want to have a satisfactory game experience in endgame PvE. All this expencive gear (like invincible or whatever) is not there for us to take it easy. Its there for us to increase the expectations we have towards each other and ultimately for ourselves.

    Those who do their homework get rewarded as they can freely choose what to do in game and with whom to do it with. Those who don't can't and will end up being upset as others beat them on every battelfield of choice, much like Tune did in your pitiful patrol.

    I can and do challenge myself everywhere in game with whatever I do and with everybody I play. That's fun and will keep on being fun!

    Sadly you can't and I feel so sorry for you and only bother replying to you because of it.

    Yikes that one of the most sanctimonious and elitist posts I've read in a while.

    It may surprise you to learn that some people actually play games for this thing called "fun", and being vaped by OP enemies repeatedly, isn't fun. Neither is spending more hours in game than with family friends and/or work just to "grind" the gear at end-game, or spend half their wage to do it easier. I think perhaps most players would like the "option" at least to have a "fun" time, rather than what some call "challenging".

    If you want to be an elitist min-maxer, then good for you, but why should your opinion be the only valid one? It seems from my observation in game (and from the thousands of posts similar to this one over the years), that most players don't really think that way, which is yet another reason why the "tougher" TFO's were virtually dead, except for pre-mades, and why it's nigh on impossible to get more than 1 or 2 people in places like the Tzenkethi BZ/TFO's or even the Terran BZ or Iconian TFO's.

    The problem (and difficulty for the devs/programmes) is that higher level players, i.e. lvl 65 with good gear/skills, will just run "normal" TFO's to simply grind out daily marks, because ... well .. they don't want a challenge! They purposely spend time and money on the game to feel like a Space God, and the game goes out of it's way - narrative/story wise - to make you feel like one.

    Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be "challenging" games/content - heck some games/companies have made their entire reputation around "challenging" - But that's what the "Elite" TFO's were designed for, but this weird scaling that's been going on since the RTFO system dropped is a major bug, and it does need looking into ... Although I don't know what can be done to fix it (maybe a "gear score" system like they have in NW?)

    I'm not sure I do or don't trust Cryptic to resolve it though. Sometime they get stuff right, and other times ... well.

    Thank you for judging me, I feel sorry for the creepy in game experiences you make too.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Apart from the fact that nobody sa
    It's not harder,

    It's "more challenging."
    [...]

    Or "it's as if you had slotted less expensive gear". :smiley:

    You dont get it and never will as you still bring in the same arguments as 2 years ago.

    No, you don't get it. You really don't.

    There is no fundamental difference at all between fighting an NPC that does 1,000 points of damage per second with a ship that has 50% resistances and one that does 500 points of damage per second with a ship that has 0% resistances.

    It's a con job: You get to buy expensive gear in order to beat artificially inflated foes, but the actual skill you need is not changed. Sure, you need to investigate all the new shiny gear, and be able to judge it, possibly adjust your firing sequence a bit. But in the end, you are playing a mathematically equivalent (or in other words: basically the same) game, just for more money - or time, if you grind it all.
    [...]
    I can and do challenge myself everywhere in game with whatever[...]

    So here's a challenge for you: Make a new Jem'Hadar. Don't give him any traits, gear, boffs, or ships that he doesn't start with, and don't upgrade anything!, just play him fresh out of the box at level 60 as if you were on a new account - you can rearrange the gear he starts with between ship and shuttle, though. And queue up for a HSE with four others who do the same challenge. Takes, what, 30 minutes in total to do this from creating the character to playing the HSE until it's over.

    Can you beat it? No, of course you cannot. No skill in the world, not even yours (even if it is as high as you say, or higher) will change the math.

    Now, take the same team and do HSA. You will find that it feels a lot more tense than HSE with your main captain. I would expect a seasoned player such as yourself to succeed in HSA under such circumstances, though probably not without deaths, and possibly not with all optionals. In the end, you'll see that you could have done better here and there, and maybe work on that. You'll have as much fun as you had with all the gear and additional specialization points.

    And then you will have really gotten the meaning my above remark. All for maybe an hour of game time.

    For as long as the conditions on a map stay the same the outcome if it is already decided b4 you enter [...]

    Don't give me platitudes, try the challenge I proposed. :)

    I'm sure you mean well but I have learned to set the challanges to overcome in this game for myself the past 7 years. I will keep on doing so and judging so far I managed to uphold the fun even after all those years.

    Keep on setting the right ones for yourself and try to do the same or you eventualy loose by not having fun. ;)
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • peterconnorfirst
    peterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    sophlogimo wrote: »

    When Cryptic gets my money, it's as an acknowledgement for having done a good job at entertaining me, not for some powercreep noise. :p

    What I like best at our chats here is when we at times reach a point where we agree to a 100% on something. Does not happen often, but at times. :)
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • lordsteve1
    lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    @sophlogimo You're just not listening to people here.

    You keep banging on about gear this and gear that and seem to act as if the only thing that affects performance is what shiny toys people are playing with. How hard is it to see that SKILL and PLAYER ABILITY has a huge affect on performance?!?!?

    Let me give you a current example:

    Right now in game i'm trying out the energy build that is in @tunebreaker 's signature. I've got 90% of the gear (though not at top end rarity yet) and guess what.....i'm utterly TRIBBLE compared to him.
    If gear was all that mattered then surely i'd be getting the 100k+ DPS scores in ISA that i know he's managed with said build, but i'm not. And it's because i'm not as skilled at flying, at ability activation, at reading the battlefield as he is.
    So skill absolutely is a massive part of the game, and it has a huge affect on how well you do with any given situation and build. I'd imagine at least 40% of the performance of a build is down to skill alone.

    So please stop banging on about gear all the time.
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