Voyager, the show that could of been

talonxv · November 2018

Well since I am flatly done beating the DSC horse, let's talk about another series where I think the Star Trek team really didn't take a show to its full potential. Voyager.

So many missed opportunities. Honestly I saw a YouTube video that summed up my issues nicely with Voyager. It was TNG light with a premise that could of been so much more.

IMHO Voyager should of had a lot more like Year of Hell or the Equinox 2 parter. More principals vs survival.

Issues I have with the show.

1. How in the name of hell does that crew keep the Voyager looking like she just left spacedock? I mean by year 7, Voyager should look as Beat up as Enterprise did after fighting the Reliant. I mean Torres should be tearing her hair out just keeping that ship together.

2. Janeway was never really pushed to the limit except for Year of Hell, then got the reset button hit. In Fact someone said it best. Easy to have that moral high ground when your belly is full, and your ship is in great working order.

3. 7 of 9. I swear every time she learned a lesson, next day, info dump and reset button is hit and she gains nothing from the experience. Would of been fun to really see her adapt to being a human.

4. Criminal under use of Harry Kim. And the guy SHOULD OF BEEN PROMOTED. Tuvok was. Same with Chakotay.

5. Also massive under usage of Equinox. Could of done so much more with the ship. Just give Torres 2 weeks and plenty of resources. Ship would be better than new. /sarcasm

All and all, Voyager needed some real quandaries, struggle and hardship.

My 2 cents.

brian334 · November 2018

Voyager wasn't a case of viewer fatigue, it was a case of writer fatigue.

There absolutely could have been so much more to the story. The potential was there, the production and acting talent was there, (arguably,) but what was missing was science fiction. Where was the speculative fiction like you can see in any old issue of Galaxy?

Hollywood writers are good at soap operas and cop shows. They are lost when it comes to sci fi. they don't read it, they don't understand it, and they have no clue what a sci fi audience wants.

Asimov said it best: sci fi is romance, history, drama, horor, comedy, and every other branch of storytelling there is, but most of all it is wonder! Without that element, without the core belief in the magic of the universe, sci fi is just talking robots and spaceships.

luminaire · November 2018

I'm pretty much in agreement. Voyagers biggest problem was never embracing it's premise (a starship, lost, on the far side of the galaxy, no reinforcements, no resources, no nothing), and instead just coming across as TNG 2.0.

You could watch like a good 98% of Voyager and, aside from the lack of annoying Admirals and 'set course for Starbase Yadayada", never really have any reason to think that they're supposedly stranded or far from the Federation, because it was really only the focus of a few episodes and the odd line of dialogue.

talonxv wrote: »

IMHO Voyager should of had a lot more like Year of Hell or the Equinox 2 parter. More principals vs survival.

Funnily enough Year of Hell was supposed to be a season long arc, but they chickened out and made it a 2 parter instead.

1. How in the name of hell does that crew keep the Voyager looking like she just left spacedock? I mean by year 7, Voyager should look as Beat up as Enterprise did after fighting the Reliant. I mean Torres should be tearing her hair out just keeping that ship together.

2. Janeway was never really pushed to the limit except for Year of Hell, then got the reset button hit. In Fact someone said it best. Easy to have that moral high ground when your belly is full, and your ship is in great working order.

Agreed on both.

3. 7 of 9. I swear every time she learned a lesson, next day, info dump and reset button is hit and she gains nothing from the experience. Would of been fun to really see her adapt to being a human.

I would disagree, there were some missteps, particularly in the last season, but overall I think 7 ended up being one of the best developed characters on the show, especially in her interactions with the Doctor. (OTP!)

4. Criminal under use of Harry Kim. And the guy SHOULD OF BEEN PROMOTED. Tuvok was. Same with Chakotay.

This was due to the behind the scenes drama rampant on Voyager iirc. Apparently Garret Wang had a habit of showing up for work drunk(possibly high?), late, forgetting his lines, etc. They were originally just going to kill him off entirely, but apparently he developed a bit of a fan base so they kept him on, but made him the resident punching bag.

5. Also massive under usage of Equinox. Could of done so much more with the ship. Just give Torres 2 weeks and plenty of resources. Ship would be better than new. /sarcasm

Eh, honestly, if the goal is to actually embrace the premise of 70,000 light years from the nearest shipyard, the best thing they could have done with the the Equinox was tear it to pieces, cannibalize every last bit for useful tech/parts etc.

luminaire · November 2018

talonxv wrote: »

Well since I am flatly done beating the DSC horse, let's talk about another series where I think the Star Trek team really didn't take a show to its full potential. Voyager.

So many missed opportunities. Honestly I saw a YouTube video that summed up my issues nicely with Voyager. It was TNG light with a premise that could of been so much more.

Pretty much agree, Voyagers biggest failure was never embracing the premise and simply rehashing TNG.

You could really watch like 98% of it and, aside from the lack of annoying Admirals and "Set course for Starbase Yadayada", never have any reason to think that that they were in a ship stranded 70,000 light years from the Federation or any help, because it was really only the focus of a handful of episodes and the odd line of dialogue.

IMHO Voyager should of had a lot more like Year of Hell or the Equinox 2 parter. More principals vs survival.

Ironically Year of Hell was supposed to be a season long arc, but they chickened out and did a 2 parter instead.

1. How in the name of hell does that crew keep the Voyager looking like she just left spacedock? I mean by year 7, Voyager should look as Beat up as Enterprise did after fighting the Reliant. I mean Torres should be tearing her hair out just keeping that ship together.

2. Janeway was never really pushed to the limit except for Year of Hell, then got the reset button hit. In Fact someone said it best. Easy to have that moral high ground when your belly is full, and your ship is in great working order.

Agreed on both

3. 7 of 9. I swear every time she learned a lesson, next day, info dump and reset button is hit and she gains nothing from the experience. Would of been fun to really see her adapt to being a human.

I would disagree. While there were some missteps, particularly in the last season, overall I think 7 was one of the best developed characters on the show, especially in her interactions with the Doctor. (OTP!)

4. Criminal under use of Harry Kim. And the guy SHOULD OF BEEN PROMOTED. Tuvok was. Same with Chakotay.

This was iirc due the behind the scenes drama that was rampant on Voyager. Garrett Wang apparently had a habit of showing up late/wasted for filming, and they were planning to outright kill him off, but he somehow developed a fan base so they kept him around, but made him the punching bag of the universe.

5. Also massive under usage of Equinox. Could of done so much more with the ship. Just give Torres 2 weeks and plenty of resources. Ship would be better than new. /sarcasm

Well, I mean, if we're actually going to embrace the premise of being 70,000 light years from the nearest shipyard or starbase, the best thing they could have done with the Equinox is tear it to pieces, cannibalize every last bit for useful tech/parts.

jonsills · November 2018

Ron Moore cut his TV teeth writing for Trek, starting with "The Bonding" for TNG (he and Brannon Braga shared a Hugo for "All Good Things..."). He is credited with most of the development of Klingons in TNG and DS9, and was on the production staff for DS9 starting in season three (as well as co-writing "Trials and Tribble-ations"). He moved to VOY after DS9 ended; rather famously, he tried to bring some sense of realism to the show, including rough-drafting an episode that would have explained how they managed to replace all those shuttles and whatnot. Reportedly, Rick Berman told him not to bother, saying, "We don't worry about that here. This is Star Trek."

He apparently managed to take out all of his frustrations at that while executive-producing the BSG reboot, which is one of the reasons the Galactica looked worse and worse as time went by (especially after the Psychotic Act of Badassery at New Caprica), and one reason why they had so very many episodes centering on shortages of food, water, and Vipers (including specifically mentioning transferring all of Pegasus' fighters to Galactica during the escape from New Caprica).

If he'd been given his head, and VOY had been allowed to have a serious arc, one can only imagine what could have been...

starswordc · November 2018

I can overlook some of the logistical stuff: a lot of those are rendered moot by replicator technology. Lack of character development is a problem, and protagonist-centered morality an even bigger one. Everything Janeway does is Always Right®, even if it's the complete opposite action and reasoning from what they did last week, and even if by any sensible measure it's idiotic, immoral, and/or flat-out illegal (killing Tuvix and her treasonous actions in "Scorpion" to name but two).

talonxv · November 2018

Wow. I rag on DSC and I get read the riot act. I point out my issues with Voyager, and those same people nod and go "what might of been". What a strange world I live in. But love the discussion.

talonxv · November 2018

> @jonsills said:
> Ron Moore cut his TV teeth writing for Trek, starting with "The Bonding" for TNG (he and Brannon Braga shared a Hugo for "All Good Things..."). He is credited with most of the development of Klingons in TNG and DS9, and was on the production staff for DS9 starting in season three (as well as co-writing "Trials and Tribble-ations"). He moved to VOY after DS9 ended; rather famously, he tried to bring some sense of realism to the show, including rough-drafting an episode that would have explained how they managed to replace all those shuttles and whatnot. Reportedly, Rick Berman told him not to bother, saying, "We don't worry about that here. This is Star Trek."
>
> He apparently managed to take out all of his frustrations at that while executive-producing the BSG reboot, which is one of the reasons the Galactica looked worse and worse as time went by (especially after the Psychotic Act of Badassery at New Caprica), and one reason why they had so very many episodes centering on shortages of food, water, and Vipers (including specifically mentioning transferring all of Pegasus' fighters to Galactica during the escape from New Caprica).
>
> If he'd been given his head, and VOY had been allowed to have a serious arc, one can only imagine what could have been...

And that's one of the big reasons I like the BSG reboot. By the 4th season, feels like Galactica is being held together by bailing wire, duck tape, and gorilla glue. And she looks as bad as she feels.

Voyager. NAAA 70k light years from home and she's peachy keen.

starswordc · November 2018

> @talonxv said:
> Wow. I rag on DSC and I get read the riot act. I point out my issues with Voyager, and those same people nod and go "what might of been". What a strange world I live in. But love the discussion.

Well, DSC has only had one season to be middling to lousy so far, and I've watched a lot of TV shows that got really good after that, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt for a couple of years (that's apart from the fact I think a lot of the objections either don't make sense and/or are missing the forest for the trees). Whereas I actually think VOY's first season was middling to decent—my favorite episode of the series, "Prime Factors", is in the first season—and most of my objections didn't become apparent until way later.

Unknown · November 2018

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jonsills · November 2018

Part of the problem, Val, was that the initial episodes attempted to set up future stress by pointing up limitations. For instance, holodeck time was rationed to save power; their Native Guide had to set up an airponics bay to grow vegetables to supplement the limited food replicator supplies; and most famously, the pilot episode took pains to tell us that the ship had a limited number of photon torpedoes "and no way to get any more".

Yet the holodeck saw so much use that we could learn that there were only three safe programs (the beach, the pool hall, and da Vinci's studio); Neelix's cooking was played for laughs, with people turning it down rather than grimly shoveling the available food into their mouths to avoid starving; and someone kept count of the torpedoes fired, and wound up with a total remaining number of -33. (I suspect, but cannot prove, that Moore nodded at this in the second episode of nBSG, with Cylon attacks coming every 33 minutes).

See, it doesn't bother me that the visuals were incompatible with previous shows (the uniforms, for instance, were "wrong" for shipboard use at that time, by a strict examination of timelines), nor that they (as far as I can recall) invented "compression phaser rifles" (compressing what? You can't "compress" energy), nor the weirdness of the biogel computers that didn't seem to have any advantages over the optical matrix systems of the Ent-D. What bothered me was that they couldn't seem to be bothered to maintain their own internal logic. Janeway's wild emotional swings, Seven's inability to learn over the long term, the attempt to set up a tension with the mixed Starfleet/Maquis crew only for the entire concept to be completely ignored and everyone to act just like they'd graduated from the Academy when the chips were down... (At least Burnham suffered from continued prejudice against her for quite some time after the incident aboard the Shenzhou (and it helps that she may well have been correct - if the Klingon ships had arrived to find one dead sarcophagus ship and one Starfleet vessel calmly repairing a comms relay, they would likely have gone right back to Imperial space to continue their internecine conflict).)

rattler2 · November 2018

Long range perhaps, but not 70k Lightyears.

And the main thing that bugs me about people bashing Voyager is resupply. Like you said they were able to trade, but some are so strict that apparently even TRADE in a SURVIVAL situation is banned by the Prime Directive. Pretty sure a Tricorder can be replaced easily, especially when dealing with a species that has equivelent tech. And I can see Voyager trading for components to build their own photon torpedo to replenish their supply.

There's only so much a replicator can do. Otherwise shipyards would be massive replicators pumping out starships faster than they can get crews.

I do agree that Voyager should have at least looked somewhat beat up rather than the pristine, unmarked hull she had 99% of the time.

Unknown · November 2018

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talonxv · November 2018

> @valoreah said:
> jonsills wrote: »
>
> Part of the problem, Val, was that the initial episodes attempted to set up future stress by pointing up limitations. For instance, holodeck time was rationed to save power; their Native Guide had to set up an airponics bay to grow vegetables to supplement the limited food replicator supplies; and most famously, the pilot episode took pains to tell us that the ship had a limited number of photon torpedoes "and no way to get any more".
>
>
>
>
> Well, sure. I don't disagree at all. No question it's just plain bad writing as it was never followed up on later, however not following story points is nothing new to Star Trek. Despite this, it is still reasonable to believe Voyager would be faring better than Galactica given in-universe "science and technology".
> rattler2 wrote: »
>
> Long range perhaps, but not 70k Lightyears.
>
>
>
>
> That would depend on what Starfleet considers "long range".

Galaxy class ships were considered long range and they were never really more than 1-200 light years away from where they could return and get help. Even when they went to the Gamma Quadrant.

So no the Intrepid's mission profile(or any ship's profile) would allow it to operate at peak efficiency 70,000 light years from home. Just not happening.

talonxv · November 2018

> @rattler2 said:
> Long range perhaps, but not 70k Lightyears.
>
> And the main thing that bugs me about people bashing Voyager is resupply. Like you said they were able to trade, but some are so strict that apparently even TRADE in a SURVIVAL situation is banned by the Prime Directive. Pretty sure a Tricorder can be replaced easily, especially when dealing with a species that has equivelent tech. And I can see Voyager trading for components to build their own photon torpedo to replenish their supply.
>
> There's only so much a replicator can do. Otherwise shipyards would be massive replicators pumping out starships faster than they can get crews.
>
> I do agree that Voyager should have at least looked somewhat beat up rather than the pristine, unmarked hull she had 99% of the time.

I'm sorry but I must interject. Even with replicators, still need someone to mount the parts on the damn ship. About what 150 or so people give or take? Maybe what 30% of the crew or so is engineering(and that's being generous). Only so many people to carry out maintenance while still trying to maintain warp and still get along home.

It's not so much a matter of resupply, find a nice asteroid field and then replicators can take the matter from there.

It's the actual manpower Voyager has to begin with to do actual repairs and keep the ship functioning that well for that long.

I'm calling bullcrap that the engineering department could get it done, for that long, doing that great of a job. It's not even realistic by Star Trek standards.

starswordc · November 2018

We may not know specifically what Starfleet considers a "long range" mission but it's definite canon that they sometimes send ships into deep space well away from the Federation for years at a time (USS Olympia [sp?] in "The Sound of Her Voice" to name one). The problem is that Voyager specifically wasn't equipped for it: they were on a mission that shouldn't have even taken them out of spitting distance of Deep Space 9 and didn't even bring a ship's counselor along (one of the key staff billets in TNG).

rattler2 · November 2018

starswordc wrote: »

We may not know specifically what Starfleet considers a "long range" mission but it's definite canon that they sometimes send ships into deep space well away from the Federation for years at a time (USS Olympia [sp?] in "The Sound of Her Voice" to name one). The problem is that Voyager specifically wasn't equipped for it: they were on a mission that shouldn't have even taken them out of spitting distance of Deep Space 9 and didn't even bring a ship's counselor along (one of the key staff billets in TNG).

Not only that, A lot of Voyager's original senior staff were killed in transit, including pretty much the entire medical staff.

talonxv wrote: »

It's not so much a matter of resupply, find a nice asteroid field and then replicators can take the matter from there.

You're assuming Voyager has INDUSTRIAL replicators. Yea going up to an asteroid field might be viable if that was the case, but as far as we know, the Intrepid class does NOT have industrial replicators on board. The replicators in the mess hall aren't meant for making replacement components for a phaser strip or impulse manifolds.

artan42 · November 2018

'Could have been'.

talonxv · November 2018

> @rattler2 said:
> starswordc wrote: »
>
> We may not know specifically what Starfleet considers a "long range" mission but it's definite canon that they sometimes send ships into deep space well away from the Federation for years at a time (USS Olympia [sp?] in "The Sound of Her Voice" to name one). The problem is that Voyager specifically wasn't equipped for it: they were on a mission that shouldn't have even taken them out of spitting distance of Deep Space 9 and didn't even bring a ship's counselor along (one of the key staff billets in TNG).
>
>
>
>
> Not only that, A lot of Voyager's original senior staff were killed in transit, including pretty much the entire medical staff.
> talonxv wrote: »
>
> It's not so much a matter of resupply, find a nice asteroid field and then replicators can take the matter from there.
>
>
>
>
> You're assuming Voyager has INDUSTRIAL replicators. Yea going up to an asteroid field might be viable if that was the case, but as far as we know, the Intrepid class does NOT have industrial replicators on board. The replicators in the mess hall aren't meant for making replacement components for a phaser strip or impulse manifolds.

Indeed. But the only way to make enough parts to build the Delta Flyer as fast as they did, Voyager HAD to have atleast 1 onboard.

talonxv · November 2018

> @artan42 said:
> 'Could have been'.

Damn it man. I'm a US Marine/Truck driver! Not an English teacher!

starswordc · November 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

talonxv wrote: »

It's not so much a matter of resupply, find a nice asteroid field and then replicators can take the matter from there.

You're assuming Voyager has INDUSTRIAL replicators. Yea going up to an asteroid field might be viable if that was the case, but as far as we know, the Intrepid class does NOT have industrial replicators on board. The replicators in the mess hall aren't meant for making replacement components for a phaser strip or impulse manifolds.

There's really no sensible reason they couldn't be reprogrammed to do that, though (at least for the smaller parts that don't involve exotic matter: there's probably a limit to how physically big an item you could make on a rec room replicator). At its most basic the replicator is just a modified transporter that rearranges protons, neutrons, and electrons instead of simply moving/replicating them* in the same order and placement, so making things like circuitry and torpedo casings ought to be easy. Antimatter for the engines and warheads is harder, but the TNG Technical Manual says that Galaxy-class ships at least have onboard antimatter generation (which is uneconomical compared to the larger systems at starbases, but beggars can't be choosers).

* However they're said to work this week.

talonxv · November 2018

> @starswordc said:
> rattler2 wrote: »
>
> talonxv wrote: »
>
> It's not so much a matter of resupply, find a nice asteroid field and then replicators can take the matter from there.
>
>
>
>
> You're assuming Voyager has INDUSTRIAL replicators. Yea going up to an asteroid field might be viable if that was the case, but as far as we know, the Intrepid class does NOT have industrial replicators on board. The replicators in the mess hall aren't meant for making replacement components for a phaser strip or impulse manifolds.
>
>
>
>
> There's really no sensible reason they couldn't be reprogrammed to do that, though (at least for the smaller parts that don't involve exotic matter: there's probably a limit to how physically big an item you could make on a rec room replicator). At its most basic the replicator is just a modified transporter that rearranges protons, neutrons, and electrons instead of simply moving/replicating them* in the same order and placement, so making things like circuitry and torpedo casings ought to be easy. Antimatter for the engines and warheads is harder, but the TNG Technical Manual says that Galaxy-class ships at least have onboard antimatter generation (which is uneconomical compared to the larger systems at starbases, but beggars can't be choosers).
>
> * However they're said to work this week.

Well, they did get installed on Tuesday.

rattler2 · November 2018

I can see them making the components for a torpedo easily, so the limited torpedos is not really an issue. Same goes for tricorders and other tools. But for repairing holes in the hull... that I do find to be a pretty big stretch.

The only way I can even headcanon that away is to assume that they were able to stop at a station between episodes for repairs somehow. But then we hit the issue of how the Delta Quadrant is pretty much the wild west of the Galaxy. Up until Benthan territory at least there's not much in the way of major civilizations that would be willing to help that have the technological capability.

And I do agree that the Delta Flyer is another anomaly. And they actually built two I believe, as the first was destroyed if I remember correctly.

talonxv · November 2018

> @rattler2 said:
> I can see them making the components for a torpedo easily, so the limited torpedos is not really an issue. Same goes for tricorders and other tools. But for repairing holes in the hull... that I do find to be a pretty big stretch.
>
> The only way I can even headcanon that away is to assume that they were able to stop at a station between episodes for repairs somehow. But then we hit the issue of how the Delta Quadrant is pretty much the wild west of the Galaxy. Up until Benthan territory at least there's not much in the way of major civilizations that would be willing to help that have the technological capability.
>
> And I do agree that the Delta Flyer is another anomaly. And they actually built two I believe, as the first was destroyed if I remember correctly.

They did indeed build 2 of them. But there are major discrepancies with both the Delta Flyer and Voyager, but I will not tackle them now.

And even if there were places that was advanced rough to repair Voyager, why would they?

starswordc · November 2018

talonxv wrote: »

They did indeed build 2 of them. But there are major discrepancies with both the Delta Flyer and Voyager, but I will not tackle them now.

And even if there were places that was advanced rough to repair Voyager, why would they?

Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's another place where I think VOY missed out: aside from people like the Sikarians in "Prime Factors" (who traded for a copy of Voyager's onboard fiction library), what Voyager has that's valuable is its technology. Which means there's room for further plots exploring the Prime Directive via the impact of introducing new technology to regional states (the kind of thing "Caretaker" and "State of Flux" alluded to re: Janeway objecting to technology exchange with the Kazon).

Either that, or they're trading services for supplies, e.g. fighting pirates and Kazon or providing humanitarian aid to planets they pass. Which, too, is fodder for more episodes (episodes that are potentially more interesting than the Space Anomaly of the Week).

mustrumridcully0 · November 2018

I think all the improvements come down to: Assume the premise of an understaffed ship being far away from home and without any established allies or supply lines trying to get home is real, and see what stories unfold.

There is certainly room for the anomaly of the week. but there is also plenty of potential in stories revolving around making it all work, and the compromises and sacrifices this requires.
It wouldn't neccessarily need to make the show as "dark" as BSG was. Especially since there are aliens in the Star Trek universe, there is more opportunity to make new friends and allies, and to influence others positively.

My personal "Year of Hell" episode would of course be a full season. I might not even use the Annorax/TIme Travel aspect at all, and instead use two things:
- THe incident where the Voyager loses her warp core. What if they can't get it back, and instead need to find a way to build a new one. They get stuck in a region for much longer than usual.
- They later find out that a Borg Cube is en route to these worlds, and they decide to stay and help them, even if they have no idea at first how they could do it.
They will prevail in the end, but they will lose a lot of their new friends and allies.

rattler2 · November 2018

Descrepencies like SIZE. In the hanger the Delta Flyer has LOTS of room around it, but then we have scenes where the Flyer BARELY clears the bay doors.

alexmakepeace · November 2018

The best Voyager I remember wasn't on TV. It was a video game: Elite Force. Encountering new species, exploring abandoned ships, beaming onto wrecked ships to try to make use of them, and the only support you could usually rely on were your teammates. It's still one of my favorite games and it managed to be both good Star Trek and a decent FPS, which is hard.

rattler2 · November 2018

Honestly Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force was actually better than Elite Force 2. And the fact they were able to get the entire cast to reprise their roles rather than just having Picard and Tuvok for EF2...

alexmakepeace · November 2018

Yeah, EF2 was just kind of... generic. I don't like it as much as the first one.

And they took my compression rifle away in favor of a rapid-fire peashooter and a shotgun with a range of 6 inches! Come on!

starkaos · November 2018

talonxv wrote: »

1. How in the name of hell does that crew keep the Voyager looking like she just left spacedock? I mean by year 7, Voyager should look as Beat up as Enterprise did after fighting the Reliant. I mean Torres should be tearing her hair out just keeping that ship together.

Which is why I thought SGU was more realistic than Voyager for the first few episodes. It took a few episodes to get their ship livable. Although, they did overplay the Communication Stones especially with the lets bring a leading expert from Earth to help with our current problem.

Voyager, the show that could of been

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