Was thinking of something more easy like cloning Stamets with his all of his knowledge copied. It wouldn't be difficult for Section 31 to get a sample of his blood and his memories through a routine medical examination.
That's assuming his knowledge is also genetic memory if they go the straight DNA route. There's no way Discovery's crew is going to let anyone take Stamets without a fight either.
Also... taking his knowledge runs the risk of copying his personality as well, which includes a loyalty to USS Discovery and her crew. Yea he started out as a jerk, but he's grown since then and actually cares about the crew.
Too many variables to consider to make that a viable route.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Also, the human navigator seems to undergo considerably changes that could make him unsuitable to do his job in the long run (a few hundred jumps or so?). And we don't know if the genes alone are enough - if you also need to be well versed on the theory of the Mycelium Network, it becomes hard to get or create qualified and yet trustworthy slaves for the job.
When has human sacrifice ever stopped unethical organizations or races? The only reason why it would stop Section 31 is if the navigators became a threat to the Federation.
These navigators might at the minimum become a threat to your mission, if they go "weird" at the wrong time. And it's not just about the unethical nature, but also the impractical nature of having to train people in an advanced theoretical field of science, only to throw them away every hundred or so jumps. This isn't like grabbing a bunch of untrained people and having them work to death as slaves. It's more like picking people with a university degree to send them on a life-threatening missions into irradiated territory. You might be far better off putting talented people like that on some actual research. Maybe they invent a spore drive navigation computer, or a genesis device, or quantum torpedoes, or a cure for Space Herpes.
Was thinking of something more easy like cloning Stamets with his all of his knowledge copied. It wouldn't be difficult for Section 31 to get a sample of his blood and his memories through a routine medical examination.
Well, that does not actually sound more easy. Normally in Star Trek, cloning doesn't copy memories (and biologically speaking, it really shouldn't, but there is that one ENT episode where it did). But then you have a full-on Stamets. Who is to say he'd cooperate fully?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Also, the human navigator seems to undergo considerably changes that could make him unsuitable to do his job in the long run (a few hundred jumps or so?). And we don't know if the genes alone are enough - if you also need to be well versed on the theory of the Mycelium Network, it becomes hard to get or create qualified and yet trustworthy slaves for the job.
When has human sacrifice ever stopped unethical organizations or races? The only reason why it would stop Section 31 is if the navigators became a threat to the Federation.
These navigators might at the minimum become a threat to your mission, if they go "weird" at the wrong time. And it's not just about the unethical nature, but also the impractical nature of having to train people in an advanced theoretical field of science, only to throw them away every hundred or so jumps. This isn't like grabbing a bunch of untrained people and having them work to death as slaves. It's more like picking people with a university degree to send them on a life-threatening missions into irradiated territory. You might be far better off putting talented people like that on some actual research. Maybe they invent a spore drive navigation computer, or a genesis device, or quantum torpedoes, or a cure for Space Herpes.
Was thinking of something more easy like cloning Stamets with his all of his knowledge copied. It wouldn't be difficult for Section 31 to get a sample of his blood and his memories through a routine medical examination.
Well, that does not actually sound more easy. Normally in Star Trek, cloning doesn't copy memories (and biologically speaking, it really shouldn't, but there is that one ENT episode where it did). But then you have a full-on Stamets. Who is to say he'd cooperate fully?
Never stated that you could transfer memories through cloning. Get some blood to clone Stamets and copy the memories through some machine. Might be able to copy memories through the 23rd Century version of a MRI. Edit the memories so the Stamets clones are loyal Section 31 employees. Transporter records might provide the memory scans of every transported individual since Transporters have to record the position of every single neuron. Transporters would be a way to clone a ton of Stamets that have the same memories as the original.
Also, the human navigator seems to undergo considerably changes that could make him unsuitable to do his job in the long run (a few hundred jumps or so?). And we don't know if the genes alone are enough - if you also need to be well versed on the theory of the Mycelium Network, it becomes hard to get or create qualified and yet trustworthy slaves for the job.
When has human sacrifice ever stopped unethical organizations or races? The only reason why it would stop Section 31 is if the navigators became a threat to the Federation.
These navigators might at the minimum become a threat to your mission, if they go "weird" at the wrong time. And it's not just about the unethical nature, but also the impractical nature of having to train people in an advanced theoretical field of science, only to throw them away every hundred or so jumps. This isn't like grabbing a bunch of untrained people and having them work to death as slaves. It's more like picking people with a university degree to send them on a life-threatening missions into irradiated territory. You might be far better off putting talented people like that on some actual research. Maybe they invent a spore drive navigation computer, or a genesis device, or quantum torpedoes, or a cure for Space Herpes.
Was thinking of something more easy like cloning Stamets with his all of his knowledge copied. It wouldn't be difficult for Section 31 to get a sample of his blood and his memories through a routine medical examination.
Well, that does not actually sound more easy. Normally in Star Trek, cloning doesn't copy memories (and biologically speaking, it really shouldn't, but there is that one ENT episode where it did). But then you have a full-on Stamets. Who is to say he'd cooperate fully?
Never stated that you could transfer memories through cloning. Get some blood to clone Stamets and copy the memories through some machine. Might be able to copy memories through the 23rd Century version of a MRI. Edit the memories so the Stamets clones are loyal Section 31 employees. Transporter records might provide the memory scans of every transported individual since Transporters have to record the position of every single neuron. Transporters would be a way to clone a ton of Stamets that have the same memories as the original.
Oh, "some machine". Sure, they can do that. They can also use "some machine" to navigate the Spore Drive without a living navigator.
I mean, we can make up all kinds of fantastic tech that could be useful in any given situation, but it seems it is not a trivial thing to copy someone's body and mind, otherwise we'd seen it a bit more often. The one clear case we have of it is basically the Voq/Tyler thing, and we know that did not turn out so well.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
I expect lots of bugs in the new content, server issues and older stuff breaking all over the place because that's just generally how new "factions" are implemented.
I remember how quickly the bare chest (where the badge/commbadge is located, on the left side) when transporting bug was fixed, which happens a lot for Star Fleet. When the game started, and for the Delta Recruits. So when the DR was reintroduced, there was no bare chest bug. But for AoY/TOS Starfleet, the bare chest bug lingers even today (just tested it a few moments ago).
Hopefully they'll keep an eye out this bug when the Discovery faction goes Live. Since it's not available (as far as I can see with an open slot to make such a character for testing), I don't know if they'll be bugged in this way or not.
*Fingers crossed* Maybe they'll look into fixing AoY/TOS characters while they are at it....
Any news of a Discovery recruiting event? I guess they might pass on that now?
If they roll out the species available like they said (Humans, Vulcans, and Aliens first), I hope they have the recruiting event long enough to make characters of other species that (hopefully) will be made available as the mini-expansions or whatever rolls out.
Didn't Lt. Reed say in Enterprise that without the Deflector, the next grain of sand or whatever small particle they hit would leave a hole in the hull the size of his fist?
"But we have deflectors or that!" Sure, but if the deflector can do that, it can just as well deflect the sand and stones of the planetary body.
No deflector is powerful enough to protect against something that big and compacted. Otherwise the Enterprise-E would have either bounced or slid off the Scimitar rather than burying her nose into her.
One of the reasons why ships generally jump out of warp when it comes to engagements.
Though, thanks to Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we might end up seeing ships in Discovery doing the same thing as Holdo ramming into the Snoak's ship instead of what happened with Enterprise-E/Scimitar, 'because it looked cool' or something.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
One of the reasons why ships generally jump out of warp when it comes to engagements.
Though, thanks to Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we might end up seeing ships in Discovery doing the same thing as Holdo ramming into the Snoak's ship instead of what happened with Enterprise-E/Scimitar, 'because it looked cool' or something.
Well... I don't think we're gonna see many attempts at FTL Ramming because Star Trek ships are a lot more maneuverable than oversized Star Destroyers. And we also have to consider that it might not be a viable tactic because of other factors such as Warp Drive being knocked out.
Looks cool, but mechanically a lot more complicated than it looks.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Also, the human navigator seems to undergo considerably changes that could make him unsuitable to do his job in the long run (a few hundred jumps or so?). And we don't know if the genes alone are enough - if you also need to be well versed on the theory of the Mycelium Network, it becomes hard to get or create qualified and yet trustworthy slaves for the job.
When has human sacrifice ever stopped unethical organizations or races? The only reason why it would stop Section 31 is if the navigators became a threat to the Federation.
These navigators might at the minimum become a threat to your mission, if they go "weird" at the wrong time. And it's not just about the unethical nature, but also the impractical nature of having to train people in an advanced theoretical field of science, only to throw them away every hundred or so jumps. This isn't like grabbing a bunch of untrained people and having them work to death as slaves. It's more like picking people with a university degree to send them on a life-threatening missions into irradiated territory. You might be far better off putting talented people like that on some actual research. Maybe they invent a spore drive navigation computer, or a genesis device, or quantum torpedoes, or a cure for Space Herpes.
Was thinking of something more easy like cloning Stamets with his all of his knowledge copied. It wouldn't be difficult for Section 31 to get a sample of his blood and his memories through a routine medical examination.
Well, that does not actually sound more easy. Normally in Star Trek, cloning doesn't copy memories (and biologically speaking, it really shouldn't, but there is that one ENT episode where it did). But then you have a full-on Stamets. Who is to say he'd cooperate fully?
Never stated that you could transfer memories through cloning. Get some blood to clone Stamets and copy the memories through some machine. Might be able to copy memories through the 23rd Century version of a MRI. Edit the memories so the Stamets clones are loyal Section 31 employees. Transporter records might provide the memory scans of every transported individual since Transporters have to record the position of every single neuron. Transporters would be a way to clone a ton of Stamets that have the same memories as the original.
Oh, "some machine". Sure, they can do that. They can also use "some machine" to navigate the Spore Drive without a living navigator.
I mean, we can make up all kinds of fantastic tech that could be useful in any given situation, but it seems it is not a trivial thing to copy someone's body and mind, otherwise we'd seen it a bit more often. The one clear case we have of it is basically the Voq/Tyler thing, and we know that did not turn out so well.
The problem with the Voq/Tyler thing is forcing the personality of one individual into another. Inserting a personality into another person is just asking for a psychotic breakdown. Klingon brains might be more resilient, but it is a matter of the psychotic breakdown happening in a few months instead of a few days. Clones, on the other hand, don't have a personality to worry about so copying the personality of an individual that is in a body completely identical to the original personality would not have any psychotic breakdowns from the procedure. So if Klingons could transfer the personality of Tyler into Voq and make Voq look like Tyler, then Section 31 could create a bunch of Stamets' clones with identical or almost identical personalities.
Starfleet, however, may decide to shut it down. As of right now, there is only one known ship with a Spore Drive, and that is Discovery. I don't see her using it often now.
This isn't really a plausible explanation. Historically, no technology has ever been abandoned merely because its discoverer decided it was "unethical". Once something has been shown to be possible, people will work to replicate it even you refuse to share or use it anymore. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle.
But Star Trek is the story where the idealists won and build a grand and benevolent Galactic Nation.
Phase Cloak worked at least as well as the Mycelium Drive (with less requirements to modify the ship or have any genetically altered personnel), and the Federation (nor Section 31, or Starfleet Intelligence) is not using it during the Dominion War, either. Nor are the Romulans using it, despite having worked on something similar.
In Star Trek, sometimes technology is invented only by very few groups, is not reinvented elsewhere, and can be abandonded to be never used again. Why - That is left as an exercise to the fans.
I think the limitations and drawbacks shown in Discovery already make it plausible that the Federation has to give up on the technology, as cool as it was. You need a genetically modified navigator, and that genetically modified navigator is undergoing strange and unforseeable changes that alter his perception of reality and his clarity of mind. Increased use seems dangerous. If you need to throw out your navigator every 100 jumps for having become catatonic, the spore drive becomes kinda impractical. Especally should it be that it's not enough to just have the genetic makeup, but you also must have the specialized type of knowlege Stamets and maybe Tilly have. You might run out of disposable geniuses quickly, and training people the long way around and then still throwing them away after a few dozens jumps would be a difficult propsition
And of course, using it in the Dominion War isn't done so easily, since your ship must be modified significantly to install a spore drive. I don't think counter-spinning saucers are standard. You need to roll out a completely new ship class (even if it's "just" a retrofit of the Crossfield Class with modern shields, weapons, warp core.
I also think that it's plausible to believe that other galatic nations fail to "steal" the technology. The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar might be feared, but the Tal Shiar did know nothing about the Pegasus project, and both organization suffered setbacks over time. (The Dominion probably bringing the most significant one.)
So ther cultures might have to invent it the long way around. And I would posit that the Romulans, Cardassians or Klingons tend to be a bit less creative here than the Federation. Quite possible because they are all so militaristic and focus on immediate practical implications - the whole Mycelium Network thing sounds like some weird science topic that has only esotoric uses - until you stumble upon the Spore Drive idea. In short, they migth never get their foundational research far enough to actually see the possibilities.
My few thoughts on all this. First the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were more secret police than intelligence agencies. So them finding a long ago filed experimental drive for salvage is not likely. Heck, by TNG it would be historians that would see it. SFDebris points out Dominion War. We know how to time travel. Why don't we go back in time and turn defeats into victories? Or even using time travel for 'real time' intelligence? The enemy has X ships in Y system right now. Send scouts so we find out in a week per the time loop.
Star Fleet simply does not do that. As to developing a technology or shelving it. We on Earth had the concepts and prototypes for electric cars since as I recall the 70's. But neither electric motors nor batteries were good enough to be more than science fiction. Put on a shelf for thirty years, a new gas crunch comes along and the old idea is dusted off and, Hey now we have gotten past some of those early hurdles. So some can go on the roads now. So they may shelve the spore drive and be waiting for technology to make it genuinely practical.
I would also point out that Star Fleet also sees another set of technology to be Transwarp now. Borg use trans warp to go faster than current fleet models say is possible. But they have not figured out how.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
The primary sticking point for the Spore Drive is the need for a Tartegrade or Human with Tartegrade DNA to act as a navigator. Without that, the maximum effective range is not even interstellar. Its a couple hundred Kilometers.
Pretty sure that Starfleet has yet to crack that. And by the 24th Century... probably forgot about it entirely.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The primary sticking point for the Spore Drive is the need for a Tartegrade or Human with Tartegrade DNA to act as a navigator. Without that, the maximum effective range is not even interstellar. Its a couple hundred Kilometers.
Pretty sure that Starfleet has yet to crack that. And by the 24th Century... probably forgot about it entirely.
Personally, it sounds like a computational problem of 23rd Century technology vs. 24th Century technology. If Data with his Positronic Brain was piloting a starship with a Spore Drive, then there is no need for a biological component. If a biological component was needed to use the Spore Drive, then Discovery wouldn't have been able to do their initial short jumps.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
The main issue with Data though, is he's a unique individual. HOWEVER... It IS possible that Bio-Neural Circuitry as seen in ships like Voyager might make it more viable. I believe Bio-Neural Gel Packs had better computational capability over pure Isolinear.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
One of the reasons why ships generally jump out of warp when it comes to engagements.
Though, thanks to Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we might end up seeing ships in Discovery doing the same thing as Holdo ramming into the Snoak's ship instead of what happened with Enterprise-E/Scimitar, 'because it looked cool' or something.
Well... I don't think we're gonna see many attempts at FTL Ramming because Star Trek ships are a lot more maneuverable than oversized Star Destroyers. And we also have to consider that it might not be a viable tactic because of other factors such as Warp Drive being knocked out.
Looks cool, but mechanically a lot more complicated than it looks.
Including, but not limited to: being able to see it coming! Seriously warp fields are easy to see coming.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
Easiest way to curb a Warp Ram is to shoot out the Warp Nacelle. An episode of TNG had Cardassians shooting the Warp Nacelles of both the Enterprise and a Vor'cha to disable them so they couldn't jump to warp. Enterprise however was able to shrug it off because of quick thinking. The Vor'cha on the other hand was not so lucky.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Easiest way to curb a Warp Ram is to shoot out the Warp Nacelle. An episode of TNG had Cardassians shooting the Warp Nacelles of both the Enterprise and a Vor'cha to disable them so they couldn't jump to warp. Enterprise however was able to shrug it off because of quick thinking. The Vor'cha on the other hand was not so lucky.
I thought that was a Romulan that did that not a cardi?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,672Community Moderator
Nope. The Romulans didn't show up until they found the last piece, being the sneaky ninjas they are. I believe the Cardassian commander was Gul Occet or something along those lines.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
You mean explain why transwarp isn't ultimately reliable? Thankfully the same movie that premiered the Klingon cloaking device has them covered.
"Oh look the mycelial network is reshaping itself/dying/turning into Tardigrades. That or Stamets has started calling himself God Emperor. Better start working on a mechanical substitute. Cut to: rough diagram of the Excelsior and a bucket filled with the tragic hopes of Starfleet Engineers."
(Poking for plot holes =/= cogent literary analysis, one loses the ability to appreciate themes and narrative connections [which tend to be what people most take away from a story] that may be directly relevant to the question you're trying to pose.)
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Nope. The Romulans didn't show up until they found the last piece, being the sneaky ninjas they are. I believe the Cardassian commander was Gul Occet or something along those lines.
Ocett, and yeah, that ep basically had a running theme of "Who's gonna show up next?" One thing I found interesting was that the most ruthless of them was actually the Klingon captain. Then the Romulans are like "SURPRISE! we're here to help!"
That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of a "plot arc", are you? TRIBBLE, Babylon 5 took the better part of five years to "explain" some of the elements from its first year, because that's how the plot arc was set up to begin with. The first season of Disco seems to be set up in order to, among other things, explain why the Spore Drive was abandoned. (It was made plain from the beginning that without torturing a sapient being, it was limited to a few hundred klicks at most, and when you do engage in such torture, the sapient being involved might get... a bit testy.)
As for why nobody revived it later during the era of biogel-pack computers, I can see two clear reasons: first, you generally don't want to resurrect abandoned technologies, particularly tech as dangerous to the user as Spore Drive, unless it's an XK-class life-or-death-of-everything emergency; and second, it also seems to function in a fashion similar to the slipstream drive in Andromeda or E-level hyperspace in Brin's Five Galaxies, in that intuition counts for as much as computation in plotting and maintaining a course. Computers aren't really big on intuition.
Ocett, and yeah, that ep basically had a running theme of "Who's gonna show up next?" One thing I found interesting was that the most ruthless of them was actually the Klingon captain. Then the Romulans are like "SURPRISE! we're here to help!"
"The Chase" was such a weird episode….
I actually found it to be a very interesting episode meyself. Seeing the Romulan Commander be someone who is actually VERY reasonable despite violating the Neutral Zone... In a way it kinda linked back to a bit of the more honorable side they had back in TOS.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Babylon 5 took the better part of five years to "explain" some of the elements from its first year, because that's how the plot arc was set up to begin with.
That actually starts with the OPENING CREDITS. B4 mysteriously disappears... we don't find out why until years later.
Ocett, and yeah, that ep basically had a running theme of "Who's gonna show up next?" One thing I found interesting was that the most ruthless of them was actually the Klingon captain. Then the Romulans are like "SURPRISE! we're here to help!"
"The Chase" was such a weird episode….
I actually found it to be a very interesting episode meyself. Seeing the Romulan Commander be someone who is actually VERY reasonable despite violating the Neutral Zone... In a way it kinda linked back to a bit of the more honorable side they had back in TOS.
Any news of a Discovery recruiting event? I guess they might pass on that now?
If they roll out the species available like they said (Humans, Vulcans, and Aliens first), I hope they have the recruiting event long enough to make characters of other species that (hopefully) will be made available as the mini-expansions or whatever rolls out.
i would love to have news on this. because yes, new players and all, but as they expect us to start yet another toon, why not make it special? For us, the old players, as for the new players too. We invest in these, so a bag of goodies and / or unlocks would be nice.
That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of a "plot arc", are you? ****, Babylon 5 took the better part of five years to "explain" some of the elements from its first year, because that's how the plot arc was set up to begin with. The first season of Disco seems to be set up in order to, among other things, explain why the Spore Drive was abandoned. (It was made plain from the beginning that without torturing a sapient being, it was limited to a few hundred klicks at most, and when you do engage in such torture, the sapient being involved might get... a bit testy.)
As for why nobody revived it later during the era of biogel-pack computers, I can see two clear reasons: first, you generally don't want to resurrect abandoned technologies, particularly tech as dangerous to the user as Spore Drive, unless it's an XK-class life-or-death-of-everything emergency; and second, it also seems to function in a fashion similar to the slipstream drive in Andromeda or E-level hyperspace in Brin's Five Galaxies, in that intuition counts for as much as computation in plotting and maintaining a course. Computers aren't really big on intuition.
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of Deus Ex Machina, are you? It's not about a long drawn-out plot arc, stretching over 5 years even, but rather the exact opposite. Though dating back to Greek tragedies even, it was used heavily in plays during the Middle Ages, as a cheap way to suddenly, miraculously extricate the 'crew' from an impossible corner they had painted themselves into. That is what the Spore Drive is. They needed a quick magical edge over the Klingons, so they could pop in- and out anywhere, unexpectedly. It's simply bad writing.
Problem with this particular Deus Ex Machina -- apart from all the usual objections -- is that it doesn't exist in TOS -- a series TRIBBLE professes to precede. So, hence my earlier comment, that now everyone is raking their brain over how to get rid of it again, plausibly. And that's another thing about Trek in general: way too often they encounter technology that's simply too good to ignore. So, no, the Spore Drive wouldn't have just been abandoned. Once you have access to something as powerful as a Mycellium network, you WILL use it. And if not you, then your enemies... which means you. They would have perfected the interface, and then used it from there on in.
Yes, Andromeda's slipstream drive required intuition to navigate; but using 'intuition' is ultimately just the opposite of a Deus Ex Machina device: instead of coming up with a quick solution, you just declare the matter unsolvable (to machines, at least). Which is equally weak: after all, intuition is little more than a feeling based on statistical data in your brain -- something which computers are eminently good at interpreting, actually.
In the final analysis, I feel the Deus Ex Machina device should be used as little as possible: if you can't explain it with tech, then it's weak; and if you CAN explain it will tech, then you can't reasonably explain how come you're suddenly not using it any more.
That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of a "plot arc", are you? ****, Babylon 5 took the better part of five years to "explain" some of the elements from its first year, because that's how the plot arc was set up to begin with. The first season of Disco seems to be set up in order to, among other things, explain why the Spore Drive was abandoned. (It was made plain from the beginning that without torturing a sapient being, it was limited to a few hundred klicks at most, and when you do engage in such torture, the sapient being involved might get... a bit testy.)
As for why nobody revived it later during the era of biogel-pack computers, I can see two clear reasons: first, you generally don't want to resurrect abandoned technologies, particularly tech as dangerous to the user as Spore Drive, unless it's an XK-class life-or-death-of-everything emergency; and second, it also seems to function in a fashion similar to the slipstream drive in Andromeda or E-level hyperspace in Brin's Five Galaxies, in that intuition counts for as much as computation in plotting and maintaining a course. Computers aren't really big on intuition.
or you can express it differently;
"It's Magic". Like "the Force" or interstellar-range telepathy, it's a poorly thought out magic system. (warp itself is a magic system, but has enough scientific 'rivets' to be good space-opera.) spore drive requires "The Chosen One" to operate, hence why nobody with lesser morals or a more reckless culture has been using it to subjugate the universe.
Star Trek is full of magic. It is just framed as technology.
And there's absolutely nothing wring with 'magic' masquerading as tech. It's all just a matter of suspension of disbelief, really: the tech can be good, but not ridiculously so (to the point where the disbelief is immediate).
Comments
That's assuming his knowledge is also genetic memory if they go the straight DNA route. There's no way Discovery's crew is going to let anyone take Stamets without a fight either.
Also... taking his knowledge runs the risk of copying his personality as well, which includes a loyalty to USS Discovery and her crew. Yea he started out as a jerk, but he's grown since then and actually cares about the crew.
Too many variables to consider to make that a viable route.
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Well, that does not actually sound more easy. Normally in Star Trek, cloning doesn't copy memories (and biologically speaking, it really shouldn't, but there is that one ENT episode where it did). But then you have a full-on Stamets. Who is to say he'd cooperate fully?
Never stated that you could transfer memories through cloning. Get some blood to clone Stamets and copy the memories through some machine. Might be able to copy memories through the 23rd Century version of a MRI. Edit the memories so the Stamets clones are loyal Section 31 employees. Transporter records might provide the memory scans of every transported individual since Transporters have to record the position of every single neuron. Transporters would be a way to clone a ton of Stamets that have the same memories as the original.
Oh, "some machine". Sure, they can do that. They can also use "some machine" to navigate the Spore Drive without a living navigator.
I mean, we can make up all kinds of fantastic tech that could be useful in any given situation, but it seems it is not a trivial thing to copy someone's body and mind, otherwise we'd seen it a bit more often. The one clear case we have of it is basically the Voq/Tyler thing, and we know that did not turn out so well.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
I remember how quickly the bare chest (where the badge/commbadge is located, on the left side) when transporting bug was fixed, which happens a lot for Star Fleet. When the game started, and for the Delta Recruits. So when the DR was reintroduced, there was no bare chest bug. But for AoY/TOS Starfleet, the bare chest bug lingers even today (just tested it a few moments ago).
Hopefully they'll keep an eye out this bug when the Discovery faction goes Live. Since it's not available (as far as I can see with an open slot to make such a character for testing), I don't know if they'll be bugged in this way or not.
*Fingers crossed* Maybe they'll look into fixing AoY/TOS characters while they are at it....
If they roll out the species available like they said (Humans, Vulcans, and Aliens first), I hope they have the recruiting event long enough to make characters of other species that (hopefully) will be made available as the mini-expansions or whatever rolls out.
One of the reasons why ships generally jump out of warp when it comes to engagements.
Though, thanks to Star Wars: The Last Jedi, we might end up seeing ships in Discovery doing the same thing as Holdo ramming into the Snoak's ship instead of what happened with Enterprise-E/Scimitar, 'because it looked cool' or something.
Well... I don't think we're gonna see many attempts at FTL Ramming because Star Trek ships are a lot more maneuverable than oversized Star Destroyers. And we also have to consider that it might not be a viable tactic because of other factors such as Warp Drive being knocked out.
Looks cool, but mechanically a lot more complicated than it looks.
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The problem with the Voq/Tyler thing is forcing the personality of one individual into another. Inserting a personality into another person is just asking for a psychotic breakdown. Klingon brains might be more resilient, but it is a matter of the psychotic breakdown happening in a few months instead of a few days. Clones, on the other hand, don't have a personality to worry about so copying the personality of an individual that is in a body completely identical to the original personality would not have any psychotic breakdowns from the procedure. So if Klingons could transfer the personality of Tyler into Voq and make Voq look like Tyler, then Section 31 could create a bunch of Stamets' clones with identical or almost identical personalities.
My few thoughts on all this. First the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order were more secret police than intelligence agencies. So them finding a long ago filed experimental drive for salvage is not likely. Heck, by TNG it would be historians that would see it. SFDebris points out Dominion War. We know how to time travel. Why don't we go back in time and turn defeats into victories? Or even using time travel for 'real time' intelligence? The enemy has X ships in Y system right now. Send scouts so we find out in a week per the time loop.
Star Fleet simply does not do that. As to developing a technology or shelving it. We on Earth had the concepts and prototypes for electric cars since as I recall the 70's. But neither electric motors nor batteries were good enough to be more than science fiction. Put on a shelf for thirty years, a new gas crunch comes along and the old idea is dusted off and, Hey now we have gotten past some of those early hurdles. So some can go on the roads now. So they may shelve the spore drive and be waiting for technology to make it genuinely practical.
I would also point out that Star Fleet also sees another set of technology to be Transwarp now. Borg use trans warp to go faster than current fleet models say is possible. But they have not figured out how.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Pretty sure that Starfleet has yet to crack that. And by the 24th Century... probably forgot about it entirely.
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Personally, it sounds like a computational problem of 23rd Century technology vs. 24th Century technology. If Data with his Positronic Brain was piloting a starship with a Spore Drive, then there is no need for a biological component. If a biological component was needed to use the Spore Drive, then Discovery wouldn't have been able to do their initial short jumps.
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My character Tsin'xing
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I thought that was a Romulan that did that not a cardi?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
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You mean explain why transwarp isn't ultimately reliable? Thankfully the same movie that premiered the Klingon cloaking device has them covered.
"Oh look the mycelial network is reshaping itself/dying/turning into Tardigrades. That or Stamets has started calling himself God Emperor. Better start working on a mechanical substitute. Cut to: rough diagram of the Excelsior and a bucket filled with the tragic hopes of Starfleet Engineers."
(Poking for plot holes =/= cogent literary analysis, one loses the ability to appreciate themes and narrative connections [which tend to be what people most take away from a story] that may be directly relevant to the question you're trying to pose.)
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"The Chase" was such a weird episode….
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As for why nobody revived it later during the era of biogel-pack computers, I can see two clear reasons: first, you generally don't want to resurrect abandoned technologies, particularly tech as dangerous to the user as Spore Drive, unless it's an XK-class life-or-death-of-everything emergency; and second, it also seems to function in a fashion similar to the slipstream drive in Andromeda or E-level hyperspace in Brin's Five Galaxies, in that intuition counts for as much as computation in plotting and maintaining a course. Computers aren't really big on intuition.
I actually found it to be a very interesting episode meyself. Seeing the Romulan Commander be someone who is actually VERY reasonable despite violating the Neutral Zone... In a way it kinda linked back to a bit of the more honorable side they had back in TOS.
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i would love to have news on this. because yes, new players and all, but as they expect us to start yet another toon, why not make it special? For us, the old players, as for the new players too. We invest in these, so a bag of goodies and / or unlocks would be nice.
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of Deus Ex Machina, are you? It's not about a long drawn-out plot arc, stretching over 5 years even, but rather the exact opposite. Though dating back to Greek tragedies even, it was used heavily in plays during the Middle Ages, as a cheap way to suddenly, miraculously extricate the 'crew' from an impossible corner they had painted themselves into. That is what the Spore Drive is. They needed a quick magical edge over the Klingons, so they could pop in- and out anywhere, unexpectedly. It's simply bad writing.
Problem with this particular Deus Ex Machina -- apart from all the usual objections -- is that it doesn't exist in TOS -- a series TRIBBLE professes to precede. So, hence my earlier comment, that now everyone is raking their brain over how to get rid of it again, plausibly. And that's another thing about Trek in general: way too often they encounter technology that's simply too good to ignore. So, no, the Spore Drive wouldn't have just been abandoned. Once you have access to something as powerful as a Mycellium network, you WILL use it. And if not you, then your enemies... which means you. They would have perfected the interface, and then used it from there on in.
Yes, Andromeda's slipstream drive required intuition to navigate; but using 'intuition' is ultimately just the opposite of a Deus Ex Machina device: instead of coming up with a quick solution, you just declare the matter unsolvable (to machines, at least). Which is equally weak: after all, intuition is little more than a feeling based on statistical data in your brain -- something which computers are eminently good at interpreting, actually.
In the final analysis, I feel the Deus Ex Machina device should be used as little as possible: if you can't explain it with tech, then it's weak; and if you CAN explain it will tech, then you can't reasonably explain how come you're suddenly not using it any more.
And there's absolutely nothing wring with 'magic' masquerading as tech. It's all just a matter of suspension of disbelief, really: the tech can be good, but not ridiculously so (to the point where the disbelief is immediate).