That Spore Drive, isn't it amazing?! First they come up with a ridiculous Deus Ex Machina device, and then they (and half this forum with them) needs to spend the next year thinking on how to plausibly get rid of it again, because TOS.
TRIBBLE, you gotta love it for its brilliant writing!
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of a "plot arc", are you? ****, Babylon 5 took the better part of five years to "explain" some of the elements from its first year, because that's how the plot arc was set up to begin with. The first season of Disco seems to be set up in order to, among other things, explain why the Spore Drive was abandoned. (It was made plain from the beginning that without torturing a sapient being, it was limited to a few hundred klicks at most, and when you do engage in such torture, the sapient being involved might get... a bit testy.)
As for why nobody revived it later during the era of biogel-pack computers, I can see two clear reasons: first, you generally don't want to resurrect abandoned technologies, particularly tech as dangerous to the user as Spore Drive, unless it's an XK-class life-or-death-of-everything emergency; and second, it also seems to function in a fashion similar to the slipstream drive in Andromeda or E-level hyperspace in Brin's Five Galaxies, in that intuition counts for as much as computation in plotting and maintaining a course. Computers aren't really big on intuition.
You're not terribly familiar with the concept of Deus Ex Machina, are you? It's not about a long drawn-out plot arc, stretching over 5 years even, but rather the exact opposite. Though dating back to Greek tragedies even, it was used heavily in plays during the Middle Ages, as a cheap way to suddenly, miraculously extricate the 'crew' from an impossible corner they had painted themselves into. That is what the Spore Drive is. They needed a quick magical edge over the Klingons, so they could pop in- and out anywhere, unexpectedly. It's simply bad writing.
Problem with this particular Deus Ex Machina -- apart from all the usual objections -- is that it doesn't exist in TOS -- a series TRIBBLE professes to precede. So, hence my earlier comment, that now everyone is raking their brain over how to get rid of it again, plausibly. And that's another thing about Trek in general: way too often they encounter technology that's simply too good to ignore. So, no, the Spore Drive wouldn't have just been abandoned. Once you have access to something as powerful as a Mycellium network, you WILL use it. And if not you, then your enemies... which means you. They would have perfected the interface, and then used it from there on in.
Yes, Andromeda's slipstream drive required intuition to navigate; but using 'intuition' is ultimately just the opposite of a Deus Ex Machina device: instead of coming up with a quick solution, you just declare the matter unsolvable (to machines, at least). Which is equally weak: after all, intuition is little more than a feeling based on statistical data in your brain -- something which computers are eminently good at interpreting, actually.
In the final analysis, I feel the Deus Ex Machina device should be used as little as possible: if you can't explain it with tech, then it's weak; and if you CAN explain it will tech, then you can't reasonably explain how come you're suddenly not using it any more.
Well the whole loss of the spore drive is being set up pretty well if you actually saw S1.
The Terrans were using it as a power source and destroying the spore network, which would have been catastrophic as it could be affecting far more than just the jump travel.
And then there's the fact that it requires a living pilot to use properly, either a willing genetically engineered (and thus illegal) pilot, or a captive slave host like the tardigrade.
Plus there's also the fact that its use led to a potentially dangerous Terran Empire conflict or possible invasion so its use overall is pretty risky.
Ample opportunity to dump the drive project for many good reasons and for Starfleet to bury the evidence in a very deep, dark hole. It's not the first technology we've seen vanished and hidden from the rest of the galaxy; Genesis, Phase Cloaking, The Guardian of Tomorrow's planet (at least in STO), the stellar slingshot procedure and usable star systems.
S2 has not even started and we already have seen plenty of bad things that this technology brings with it and it's not too hard to see that dropping it is only a matter of time. It's not going to take much to develop a plot around it needing to be "vanished".
Ive just read that with AoD 2 new episode will be added but several will be removed, this will seem to slow down levelling considering the bulk of XP is through the mission reward.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
Some are being shuffled to being on the side rather than main story line, like Nimbus III.
I admit that my plan was to go Tellarite this time, given that I did the other three Federation starter races for Agents of Yesterday. Alas that is not in the cards! It also seems a damn shame that they featured the AoD Andorian character redesign in the promos for Age of Discovery, but then opted not to include the Andorians as a starter race?
Unlike the Klingorcs and the weird thing they try to pass off as Saurian, Discovery Andorians are probably too subtle a difference to really show on character models.
How many MMOs can say they are running concurrently with an active show?
That I can think of... only two others can make that claim.
Defiance
Star Wars: The Old Republic
However... TOR really can't take advantage of anything going on in any shows or movies because it is set so far back in time from even Episode 1. Defiance tried to be tied in real tight with the show, with events in the game affecting the show and vice versa. Now that Defiance is over, the MMO is kinda left on its own.
STO is actually in a position to take advantage of not just Discovery, but any other content related to any new Trek shows. And they have the means to actually DO it. Why wouldn't they jump at the chance?
I am not sure Defiance actually counts either since the game and the show never had much in common besides the races and similar names for technology that really did not work much alike at all. Coldfire weapons are a good example of that dissimilarity, and the EGO implants (which are essential to the game characters but considered almost a hazard by the show ones) are even worse.
[...]
Well, the energy of an object moving faster than light is actually... weird.
The relativistic energy for an object of mass m with a speed of v is E = mc² / SQRT(1-v²c²).
if v > c, the term under the squareroot becomes negative, which means there is no solution in the real numbers for this formula. Instead, the energy would need to be imaginary (or rather, complex). What it means if you collide with that, I dunno. Probably leads to even more complex numbers everywhere, and what these mean in the real world, I don't know.
Well we can probably agree that in the real world, they mean that superluminal speeds are just impossible.
Probably. But maybe not at warp speed, since the density is considerably higher and the deflector is probably not designed to handle head on collisions with planets at warp. So you would most likely lack a considerable stealth aspect.
That was my point: If it can handle the one, it can handle the other.
There is also the complication that ships do not really go superluminal in warp drive, they retain whatever velocity they had before engaging the drive but the space inside the warp field changes position, slipping along faster than lightspeed when seen from the outside. That is why they do not get things like the "starbow" effect or pick up infinite mass equivalent.
And any Klingon War missions being removed are going to be given a quality pass if I remember correctly.
Yes, some might be merged down as well. Like "city of the Edge of Never" and "Past Imperfect"
As it stands now, the Klingon War arc has 20 missions in it. Of those 20
-The five that make up the "Specters" featured series are being removed from the journal and made optional
-Temporal Ambassador is being moved to much later in the game as part of the "Yesterday's War" arc
-8 missions("Hide and Seek", "Stop the Signal", “The Kuvah'Magh”, “Treasure Trading Station”, “Task Force Hippocrates”, “The Ultimate Klingon”, “City on the Edge of Never”, and “Past Imperfect”) have all been removed for polish.
-The Klingon War arc, as it is on Tribble, consists of the remaining 6 missions(“Welcome to Earth Spacedock”, “Stranded In Space”, “Diplomatic Orders”, “Researcher Rescue”, “Secret Orders”, and “The Doomsday Device” )
I can easily see those 8 removed missions getting merged down into 4.
-"Hide and Seek" + "Stop the Signal"
-“The Kuvah'Magh” + “Treasure Trading Station”
-“Task Force Hippocrates” + “The Ultimate Klingon”
-“City on the Edge of Never” + “Past Imperfect”
Since most of those directly lead into the other anyways.
City on the Edge of Never at least used to automatically start Past Imperfect for you without you even leaving the mission! It was pretty obviously built as a single story that was split for gameplay purposes only.
Once you have access to something as powerful as a Mycellium network, you WILL use it. And if not you, then your enemies... which means you.
This isn't how technology, or technological development works, especially in Star Trek. See genetic augmentation for an example.
Genetic augmentation could make any species used on it into being many times greater then they are now. Yet humanity, and indeed the races that would later found the Federation, would ban it, and keep it banned, for hundreds of years, eve though they had encountered races like the Denobulans who had used genetic modification extensively without ill effect. And yet we don't see the Cardassians, or the Romulans, perfect the technology and use it, and while one small group of Klingons tried it, the moment it failed the entire technology was abandoned even among their species. They didn't spend years after trying to perfect the technology, it was just dropped.
Genetic augmentation is rather different. For one, because it's dangerous: you don't know exactly what you're getting (the subjects could wind up being psychotic, as happened in ENT as well). And you either enhance your species as a whole, or not at all: just augmenting a small groups means risking they'll turn against you ("Superior ability breeds superior ambition."). Think of it more like insisting on continue to use bow and arrows, whereas the universe around you invented gunpowder, and eventually fierce space weapons. No one would do that (unless your name is Lara Croft *g*).
The thing is....with sci-fiction as soon as you want something removed or introduced you simply make something up...you want spore drive remived...simple...its mycelial network and since fungus can be destroyed you simply invent a plot point that the klingon scientists found another alien that feeds on the navigator race from TRIBBLE by infecting and collapsing the mycelial network around them so they cant escape. Then the kling scientists weaponise this to collapse spore drive fields permanently....simple.
Genetic augmentaion...simple. Followwing a tragedy where a race died of genetic destabilisation an entire ecosystem devolved into primordial goo and all races have now stopped using it as its simply too dangerous. Or have a micro organism be discovered on a planet which spreads throughout the galaxy infecting everyone. Thise whose genetic codes are altered are killed by this micro organism while everyone else is unaffected by it but are all carriers...job done.
So that for me is the beauty of sci fi....you dont like something or need to change something....just make some stuff up...lol.
Genetic augmentaion...simple.
Followwing a tragedy where a race died of genetic destabilisation an entire ecosystem devolved into primordial goo and all races have now stopped using it as its simply too dangerous. Or have a micro organism be discovered on a planet which spreads throughout the galaxy infecting everyone. Thise whose genetic codes are altered are killed by this micro organism while everyone else is unaffected by it but are all carriers...job done.
Except genetic augmentation wasn't stopped by all races. The Statistical Probabilities episode from DS9 had Bashir interact with a bunch of genetically engineered people that had some problem with him. Bashir was the lucky one with his genetic engineering. Then there is the genetic engineering that the Founders did on the Jem'Hadar and Vorta. The Eugenics War is only known reason why the Federation banned genetic engineering. However, even in the Federation it is likely that a limited form of genetic engineering is used to remove hereditary diseases. There is no evidence one way or the other that other alien races don't use genetic engineering.
My point, which has actually already been made by others, is that there's no deus ex machina at play here. Starting from the moment Burnham was drafted by Lorca, it was made clear that this Spore Drive was both extremely experimental and highly classified. Starfleet wanted to use it for better exploration; Lorca wanted to use it to go home. The Glenn learned how to torture the pseudo-tardigrade into trying to escape by using the mycelial network - and that wound up with the ship hitting a cosmic string, horribly mutilating everyone on board, and freeing the PT to slaughter anyone still alive after that. Then when the Discovery finally "perfected" the drive, it ran for all of (IIRC) six months before the Discovery transited universes.
This is a failed technology. It does not work correctly. And as our heroes learn in the Mirror Universe, it apparently cannot work correctly - outfit all of Starfleet with Spore Drive, and before long the mycelial network dies. No more instant travel, no more mushrooms on your pizza...
Season One, along with being the story of Burnham seeking redemption for her mutiny and the First Klingon War, is also the story of why there's no Spore Drive. It's pretty clear from the beginning that this tech is fatally flawed; we're finding out, in the course of the show, just how badly flawed it is. That is, as noted above, pretty much the opposite of a deus ex machina, although I can see how you might imagine that it is - if you think everything has to be one-and-done in a single episode, rather than being part of a season-long arc. (You'd probably hate the BSG reboot.)
Has there been any word on which races will be playable for TRIBBLE characters? Are there any new ones, or just existing ones that make sense in that time period? Will Aliengen be available?
Has there been any word on which races will be playable for TRIBBLE characters? Are there any new ones, or just existing ones that make sense in that time period? Will Aliengen be available?
From what I've heard its human, vulcan, and aliengen.
Wow, even more limited than TOS, I'm surprised, I figured we'd at least get Andorian and Tellarite since they were in season 1.
No Liberated Borg for Discovery Starfleet and TOS Starfleet? Every 'faction' should have a Liberated Borg race for Lifers even if it makes absolutely no sense.
Comments
Well the whole loss of the spore drive is being set up pretty well if you actually saw S1.
The Terrans were using it as a power source and destroying the spore network, which would have been catastrophic as it could be affecting far more than just the jump travel.
And then there's the fact that it requires a living pilot to use properly, either a willing genetically engineered (and thus illegal) pilot, or a captive slave host like the tardigrade.
Plus there's also the fact that its use led to a potentially dangerous Terran Empire conflict or possible invasion so its use overall is pretty risky.
Ample opportunity to dump the drive project for many good reasons and for Starfleet to bury the evidence in a very deep, dark hole. It's not the first technology we've seen vanished and hidden from the rest of the galaxy; Genesis, Phase Cloaking, The Guardian of Tomorrow's planet (at least in STO), the stellar slingshot procedure and usable star systems.
S2 has not even started and we already have seen plenty of bad things that this technology brings with it and it's not too hard to see that dropping it is only a matter of time. It's not going to take much to develop a plot around it needing to be "vanished".
I usually hit max level around the Dyson Sphere missions without boosts, don't think it'll matter that much really.
Unlike the Klingorcs and the weird thing they try to pass off as Saurian, Discovery Andorians are probably too subtle a difference to really show on character models.
I am not sure Defiance actually counts either since the game and the show never had much in common besides the races and similar names for technology that really did not work much alike at all. Coldfire weapons are a good example of that dissimilarity, and the EGO implants (which are essential to the game characters but considered almost a hazard by the show ones) are even worse.
There is also the complication that ships do not really go superluminal in warp drive, they retain whatever velocity they had before engaging the drive but the space inside the warp field changes position, slipping along faster than lightspeed when seen from the outside. That is why they do not get things like the "starbow" effect or pick up infinite mass equivalent.
My character Tsin'xing
Genetic augmentation is rather different. For one, because it's dangerous: you don't know exactly what you're getting (the subjects could wind up being psychotic, as happened in ENT as well). And you either enhance your species as a whole, or not at all: just augmenting a small groups means risking they'll turn against you ("Superior ability breeds superior ambition."). Think of it more like insisting on continue to use bow and arrows, whereas the universe around you invented gunpowder, and eventually fierce space weapons. No one would do that (unless your name is Lara Croft *g*).
Genetic augmentaion...simple.
Followwing a tragedy where a race died of genetic destabilisation an entire ecosystem devolved into primordial goo and all races have now stopped using it as its simply too dangerous. Or have a micro organism be discovered on a planet which spreads throughout the galaxy infecting everyone. Thise whose genetic codes are altered are killed by this micro organism while everyone else is unaffected by it but are all carriers...job done.
So that for me is the beauty of sci fi....you dont like something or need to change something....just make some stuff up...lol.
Except genetic augmentation wasn't stopped by all races. The Statistical Probabilities episode from DS9 had Bashir interact with a bunch of genetically engineered people that had some problem with him. Bashir was the lucky one with his genetic engineering. Then there is the genetic engineering that the Founders did on the Jem'Hadar and Vorta. The Eugenics War is only known reason why the Federation banned genetic engineering. However, even in the Federation it is likely that a limited form of genetic engineering is used to remove hereditary diseases. There is no evidence one way or the other that other alien races don't use genetic engineering.
This is a failed technology. It does not work correctly. And as our heroes learn in the Mirror Universe, it apparently cannot work correctly - outfit all of Starfleet with Spore Drive, and before long the mycelial network dies. No more instant travel, no more mushrooms on your pizza...
Season One, along with being the story of Burnham seeking redemption for her mutiny and the First Klingon War, is also the story of why there's no Spore Drive. It's pretty clear from the beginning that this tech is fatally flawed; we're finding out, in the course of the show, just how badly flawed it is. That is, as noted above, pretty much the opposite of a deus ex machina, although I can see how you might imagine that it is - if you think everything has to be one-and-done in a single episode, rather than being part of a season-long arc. (You'd probably hate the BSG reboot.)
Wow, even more limited than TOS, I'm surprised, I figured we'd at least get Andorian and Tellarite since they were in season 1.