This reminds me...were the descriptions for all the PvPrep queues written by Ilwrath? Because I cannot help but imagine text written like that being spoken in that voice.
And yeah, that opportunistic queuing is pretty much the dominant reason I'll ever queue Binary Circus. I'm NOT going to assemble and then just stand there until I die of old age, I have things to do. I will join if, and only if, I see that it has a snowball's chance in hell of popping.
NO! You get stuck with Druuge, or Thraddash. Or the VUX. Anything else would be a suspicion of you having fun.
Sadly most combat logs in pugs of ISA and CCA look the same. 1-2 players do like 70% (if not more) of the map there on thier own.
I think everybody can guess for himself who most likely queues up for build testing purposes and who just to grab some dil...
This is true of everything in life: 80% of everything is done by the 20%.
73.6% of statistics are made up.
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Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
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Over the years STF's went from healthy player counts to almost nothing except for a few of them. I think the general issue plaguing STO is the lack of carrot on the stick. Most MMO's instanced pve content has some form of RNG loot system at the end. STO really does not have that anymore. Back when you had a chance of getting a set item in a STF they were pretty active. Now days it's marks and there are faster ways to get marks then trying to do many of the STF's.
I think they need to add back RNG loot system back into STF's be it rare cosmetic rewards to even a small chance to get a set item out side of spending marks and dilithium.
With this new random STF system there adding it would seem like that would be a good time to add rare rewards out side of marks and dilithium. Give a very small chance to get a item from the factions rep rewards to even some very rare cosmetic rewards or ship skins. I think that would help a bit in the end game STO stagnation that has plagued the game since it went to 100% mark and dilithium system.
I know people complained about the old rng system but I think it was a mistake to remove it entirely. I think they should keep the earning system through rep while spicing up the STF loot table with a chance at a RNG reward. This would also allow them to target less used STFs with rewards as well.
On a last note I think they need to stream line how many STF's we have. I think each rep should only have one type to farming STF for space and ground and the rest so be in the random rotation.
This all could have been prevented with unbound drops that would provide a self-balancing market.
I do not believe this will never happen.
Reason: Cryptic is solidly in the camp that offering new gear and ships is THE incentive to get players to come to play the game and pay.
Hence: constant events for long term players and fancy promos to gain new players.
The funny thing is that the last time I tried ISA figuring it would be an easy one-click stop for Borg Marks, it turns out that ISA is now a complete shitshow since the DPS leagues abandoned it for HSE.
There was a time when there were "rules", or steps, players would constantly repeat to those new to STFs (uh, what the hell are they calling them now? SFOs? Whatever). I believe it was more dependent on players working together to get the objectives. Now, it has become focused on bring one thing: DPS. And this is what is going to happen when people don't.
Relying on one "fail safe" with no alternative is that a good thing?
Time to come up with a back up plan of action...or everyone is going to turtle up in their caves, again.
Do those older "rules" no longer apply?
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
By older rules I guess you means things like the !0% rule, or all going L-R?
Lack of DPS heavy players might mean such things are needed again i guess, but tbh even without players like the OP around in the pug runs, most are an easy enough victory. Powercreep has seen to it that most of the old rules are ignored now. Even with mediocre DPS you can still see a pug team at least complete a mission (optionals are obviously....optional)
Over the years STF's went from healthy player counts to almost nothing except for a few of them. I think the general issue plaguing STO is the lack of carrot on the stick. Most MMO's instanced pve content has some form of RNG loot system at the end. STO really does not have that anymore. Back when you had a chance of getting a set item in a STF they were pretty active. Now days it's marks and there are faster ways to get marks then trying to do many of the STF's.
I think they need to add back RNG loot system back into STF's be it rare cosmetic rewards to even a small chance to get a set item out side of spending marks and dilithium.
With this new random STF system there adding it would seem like that would be a good time to add rare rewards out side of marks and dilithium. Give a very small chance to get a item from the factions rep rewards to even some very rare cosmetic rewards or ship skins. I think that would help a bit in the end game STO stagnation that has plagued the game since it went to 100% mark and dilithium system.
I know people complained about the old rng system but I think it was a mistake to remove it entirely. I think they should keep the earning system through rep while spicing up the STF loot table with a chance at a RNG reward. This would also allow them to target less used STFs with rewards as well.
On a last note I think they need to stream line how many STF's we have. I think each rep should only have one type to farming STF for space and ground and the rest so be in the random rotation.
I loved the fact the Rep items were built and earned from Salvaged tech. It made the value of those items far great and gave a greater sense of achievement. The problem with current awards isn't a case of lack of, it's that players will ALWAYS want more reward. Give it a few months of the new RTFO rewards and you'll see people complain it's still not enough. It's just the way of the world.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
By older rules I guess you means things like the !0% rule, or all going L-R?
Lack of DPS heavy players might mean such things are needed again i guess, but tbh even without players like the OP around in the pug runs, most are an easy enough victory. Powercreep has seen to it that most of the old rules are ignored now. Even with mediocre DPS you can still see a pug team at least complete a mission (optionals are obviously....optional)
The thing is, the people who came up with and spread those "rules" were the experienced players of the time. The rules arose from the fact that players who knew what they were doing well enough to invent such tactics, needed them.
Players who know what they are doing don't need those rules anymore. They can simply faceroll the content with DPS. And the players who don't know what they're doing and could therefore use the rules...don't know what they're doing.
Catch-22. The low-performance players would need to learn the game better to rediscover those tactics. But if they learn the game, they won't be low-performance players anymore and won't need the tactics.
> @peterconnorfirst said: > tunebreaker wrote: » > > rattler2 wrote: » > > peterconnorfirst wrote: » > > > And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate! > > You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror incursion where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil. > > The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content? > > Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests. > > > > > I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped. > > > > > Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again. > > > > > Guilty as charged!
I am too guilty of this probably done it 50x cause i needed the practice and the challenge
> @peterconnorfirst said: > redvenge wrote: » > > They do not enjoy the queues. There is also a large number of players who hate Ground content. Borticus asked players awhile ago "what do you like about STO?". Most people in the thread talked about "story driven content", which is not the majority of queues. Feel free to browse the thread. > > > > > Facenating! Erm.. sorry but do we have any story driven content in game that has you log more than once in a while every few months? Anything?! I mean I was done with ViL new stories after like 4h of play time...
I myself playing since 2012, once i finish an episode i never want to do it again. If i do it's only because i had to
> @tunebreaker said: > meimeitoo wrote: » > > > > I had to think of this (imaginary) convo from The Traveler: > > TRAVELER: "Wesley understands things others don't." > WESLEY: "Like that DPS and knowledge are not the separate things ppl think they are?" > > I'd like to believe tunebreaker et al. are knowledgeable next to doing a lot of DPS. One might even conclude they they're doing a lot of DPS because they're knowledgeable. > > > > > Nah, nothing like that. We DPSers are just mindlessly blasting away, completely missing the nuanced and carefully mastered tactics developed by those who are knowledgeable™. Furthermore, DPS numbers are actually completely made up and those "parses" people are posting sometimes into chat are just completely random. If map is actually completed fast, definitely suspect hacking, cause it's known that using legit tactics an ISA simply can't be quicker than 15 minutes. > Confirmed by zone, forums, and top fleet players.
Umm guess i TRIBBLE it and all i did was buff like hell and spacebar like hell heh
> @ruinthefun said: > warpangel wrote: » > > You don't need to do anywhere near 100k to make the game a piece of cake. > > > > You don't? I dare you try to HSE, then. Your sub-100K isn't going to cut it there, HSE is like 200K DPS to pass.
120k minimum total team dps to avoid fail as confirmed by hellspawny When i first stopped failing it my dps was 40k then with the top dpser doing like 70k and we had minutes to spare
> @warpangel said: > ruinthefun wrote: » > > warpangel wrote: » > > You don't need to do anywhere near 100k to make the game a piece of cake. > > > > You don't? I dare you try to HSE, then. Your sub-100K isn't going to cut it there, HSE is like 200K DPS to pass. > > > > HSE is a waste of time, more profit faster running ISA+CCA.
Miner Elite and Undine Assault instead for me due to holdings to build up efficient fm payout for the time invested plus a challenge with the risk if fail at the sane time
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> @lordsteve1 said: > I’ve always felt the big queues like Big Dig, Breaking the Planet and Starbase Fleet Defense would be better as a sort of persistent mini battle zone that just resets after each successful mission. That way the map could adjust to how many players are there and you could run it with as many or few as we’re present. > No more nightmare trying to get 20 players together with that. >
> @ruinthefun said: > rattler2 wrote: » > > As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication. > > > > This goes back to that brain drain issue. Once a player has become experienced and knowledge about a queue, they will likely have exhausted any reason to play the queue and leave forever. > > Take the Assault on Terok Nor queue. Most people have no idea how to play it. I spent a weekend studying this queue. I asked what few people who knew anything about it questions, I formed a premade just to poke and prod its nooks and crannies. I know its bugs and its strategies. At this point, I'm pretty much the game's foremost expert on this queue, knowing things nobody else does. It's actually not even a bad queue. > > But I have no real reason to actually play it. There's simply nothing I can gain from doing so. Now if there was some kind of worthwhile shiny to obtain from the highest-end version of this, something people wanted, this would justify my regular attendance.
Ive done this with all optionals including the engineers health on advanced and quickly did getting shield down sequence but very low payout still for all that effort
> @seaofsorrows said: > reyan01 wrote: » > > How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez). > > > > > Fair point indeed. > > The best way I can explain that is.. it's cryptic.. not everything makes sense. > > That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
Sadly they do indeed and sometimes results in an automatic fail not by thr system just because not enough dps in it. Ive done korez maybe four times failed once. Barely got it twice. Until i have 250k dps i cant see myself doing fez much heh
> @patrickngo said: > baddmoonrizin wrote: » > > patrickngo wrote: » > > tunebreaker wrote: » > > meimeitoo wrote: » > > patrickngo wrote: » > > meimeitoo wrote: » > > seaofsorrows wrote: » > > I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds. > > I honestly don't know a good way to do it. > > > > > > Well, one way, albeit draconian (not including RA's) is to simply bar better players from doing Normals. "Reach lv 50? No more Normals for you!" And then step up the rewards for Normals a bit. But I can already see the forum rage, if they ever did that. > > > > > problem being, your 'Normals' AND YOUR ADVANCED are both starting at 50 now. > > When "Normal" started at 45, that might've been one way to gate it. > > but it's a weak gating mechanism, since story progression now goes all the way up. > > Better solution: > > Normals open at level 40 (or 45, if you must) as they used to. > > to 'qualify' for Advanced, you have to beat the 'normals' in each grouping first. all of them, both ground and space, with Optionals. > > set it up so you only have to do it once, but use that as your 'qualifying round' for Advanced, and offer 'down rated' versions of STF gear (mark x or mark XI maybe) in the rep store until you're actually qualled for Advanced, with a Level lock (50) > > > > > > The problem, the way I see it (or, rather, if I understood @seaofsorrows correctly), is not so much inexperienced players doing Advanced queues, but better players steam-rolling Normal queues (if the rewards for Normals were any good). So, ideally, you want to prevent the latter. And not allowing you to do Normals any more, above, say, lv 50, would open the way for Cryptic to hand out some decent rewards in Normals too. And then, ironically, inexperienced players wouldn't feel the urge any more to do Advanced queues before they're really ready. > > There's also nothing inherently wrong with gating it both ways, and do your 'Qualification Test' to gain entry to Advanced. Although I believe -- player resistance wise -- ppl will find it more palatable/fair for the more experienced players to just no longer have access to Normals. > > > > > Problem with that is, I would believe you'd hit level 50 (or even 65) before you'll have the chance to get into queues in the first place, given how much storyline missions we have these days. So, saying we do restrict the access, we should be doing it with a different criteria - but what would that be? Furthermore, this poses another problem, say I want to take my weaker ship and show out to someone how a queue works, in normal, cause they feel they are not ready for advanced (or Cryptic has implemented the "qualification test" as you said). What would be my solution then? > > And talking about something that rewards well in advanced (say Infected or Crystalline), are ISN and CCN really *that* bad? How much less marks do they give? > Also, I don't think Normal getting a reward boost would do anything to drive more experienced players in it, if the rewards for Advanced and Elite stay competitively better. And plenty of those self-proclaimed "experienced" players *should* actually be doing normal in the first place. > > > > > > here's your answer to the gating mechanism... > > you have to complete the relevant storyline missions before the queue unlocks. and it only unlocks to "Normal" mode until you've beaten all the 'normal' modes, both ground and space from that set. > > (AKA for the Borg STFs the 'borg' mission set, Dyson sphere the Dyson story set, etc.) You have to finish the relevant story-arc, then you get to queue for the "Normal" missions. > > To Queue for 'Advanced' you have to beat the 'normal' queue missions (with all optionals) once. That means all six of the original STF's (Infected, Khitomer, and Cure, with optionals in "Normal" before you can advance to 'Advanced", and again, all six with optionals, before you can queue for 'elite' and unlock Hive ground and Space.) > > My proposal is kinda punitive though-to prevent sandbaggers from ruining it for people honestly trying to advance, the Rep store should offer the following: > > MkX (Purple) gear until you've qualified for 'Advanced'. (trade-able) > MkXII (Purple)gear until you've qualified for "Elite" (account trade able-you can give it to your alts) > Mk XIV or Gold Mk XIII for Elites.(Character Locked) > > yes, this means including lower-tier versions of sets, like we used to have, and to keep it 'spicy', the upgrade paths for "normal" have different stat boosts than for 'Advanced', and both have different upgrade/customizing paths from 'Elite'. > > This lets Borticus and Geko fool around with different powercreep metas, while giving crafters something to do, and for players who don't want to grind dil for upgrade tokens, there's a path to 'decent' gear by straight up pew-pewing PVE. > > basically opening gates. the accolade hunters get to hunt accolades, the people who want fail conditions and a sense of exclusivity get their merit-based pay, and the queues get...well, we have to eliminate the "all marks" boxes from Red Alerts. Seriously. need to go. > > but staging it (finish all of a given queue set before progressing to the next tier) is really kinda basic-you have to beat normal to do Advanced, you have to beat advanced to risk Elite, you need to be well-rounded to tackle the final, Elite mission because it's fundamentally LONGER than the warmups-and has additional mechanics, methods of success, and paths to failure. > > Thus, creating that draw-progression. > > And I'll hammer the one exception in the reps; > > Competitive. Should be open at level 30, with tiered rewards and skill points, set up as an alternate leveling/progression from re-doing story missions on alts, or as a sop to try and bring back a PvP community that's dead-and-gone, but only because it's dead and gone and yet still advertised. There really IS no way to scale between normal/advanced/elite with the comp rep missions because the challenge comes from other players. Unlocking perhaps additional mission types by succeeding may be an option, and thus, you can eliminate the unused levels of PvP, by converting those into 'advanced' and 'elite' style maps for competitive rep players-but only with some serious work. > > > > > > > > > > I actually like this.^ > > > > > thanks. I don't think my ideas have any traction-they break a lot of the 'metas' that seem to dominate in Cryptic-Studios-land, and they might actually be too complicated to implement, but there's no harm in making a suggestion nobody will listen to. > > But I've watched the social changes in the game since early 2012/late 2011, and I took notes on some things, including how some things hit the community vs. how they were apparently intended to. > > Rep was initially apparently supposed to make grinding easier by eliminating the random drops-that was the initial 'sell' for creating it, but what was traded away, was the sense of accomplishment people got from the sets, leaving just the game-stats and some dilithium, and five almost-dead queues after a fairly short time. (ten if you count the "normals", three ground, two space). > > In every Rep so far, the pattern's happened the same way-as soon as it got easier to gen marks by doing Red Alerts, or by doing the braindead-easiest queue, the rest whithered away, no matter how good, satisfying, or challenging they were. > > and complaints mounted here, and we saw the rise of a DPS "elite" (not how they describe themselves, but how others see them all too often.) > > but that was just replacing the old "STF Elite" and "PvP Elite" communities. Human beings crave validation, they crave a sense of progression, and that's been largely removed from the intrinsic side of the queues, leaving behind a feeling of 'working a grindy job' to move a slider from left to right. > > I don't think that was the devs intent-not when I'm being honest, at least, but I feel that's probably the outcome that has shaken out, and the system needs a shaking up as a result. > > Piling on "hitpoints as difficulty" didn't work so hot either-as someone above me in this thread pointed out, it didn't make those queues more challenging, it just made them take longer to beat the exact same way. > > There's gotta be a way to provide a sense of progression. Sometimes this means chucking some popular ideas, and revisiting what words mean. > > "Normal difficulty"-you low mean average difficulty. 5K DPS and you don't have to think real hard and you'll beat it. > > "Advanced Difficulty"-this is your high-average, say a floor of 18K or so DPS, with a small number of fail conditions, because it's for advanced players, which isn't a "level" thing so much as a "Thinking" thing-a rudimentary understanding of the basic mechanics, knowing or being able to guess out the basic objectives, fundamental reading comprehension, that sort of thing, it's not 'normal' and it's not 'elite'. > > "Elite Difficulty"-should be a real challenge of both game mechanics, and players' ability to think,read, and understand what's going on in any given scenario, it's for dedicated gamers, not for 'average' players and not for players that didn't really understand what was going on in the first place. There should be failure conditions, and there should be (built in) mechanics that allow alternate strategies for players who look sideways instead of straight on ahead-elite options should include elements that make, for example, Cloaking a viable tactic instead of a short-lived crit bonus with a long cooldown, for ground, "Elite" should maybe include roguelike elements as an available strategy (bypassing pickets to assassinate under-bosses, making use of mobility and terrain instead of massed fire, etc..) It should press on ALL commonly available mechanics or careers, and that's true for both space and ground in my honest opinion...and it should be LONGER. Not with timegates, but multiple objectives, like the old pre-divided STF's, playing Elite should NOT be about grinding rewards, it should be about a sense of achieving things, the sort of group mission fleetmembers plan out to run, stock up on snacks, take a day (or night) off from work for...and brag about in the morning. > > with visible stuff to show off in game that you can't get from Normal, or Advanced, no matter how many billion marks you've accumulated. > > and teh same should apply to that unwanted, redheaded step-cousin known as PvP/Competitive Rep. It should be hard, and you should absolutely NOT get rewarded for not playing it with the rewards for playing it. > > basically, the multimarks boxes in Red Alerts are why a vast majority of queues are empty, and the reason the vast majority of "normal" queues are empty, is that you can skip right to 'advanced' without ever playing them-and there's an incentive for doing so, which leads to a lot of the problems-both 'unfair AFK' and 'trolling the queue' problems. > > but if there were a progression, if players have to earn their access to those higher rewards, you'd see a lot more involvement and a lot fewer people sporting KHG suits they got doing Borg Red Alert on repeat.
Agreed except advanced I'd make it more like 10k. Which is basically the beginning of fun in space in the queues and allows then to finally get materials like borg neural processors needed for reputation etc
> @kyle223cat said: > meimeitoo wrote: » > > markhawkman wrote: » > > lordsteve1 wrote: » > > Genuine difficulty, the kind i'm sure most players are talking about would be things like giving the enemies the same abilities as players, random actions, faster movements, better pathing, improved AI. > > > > Have you forgotten the tears of rage that flooded the forums with the Voth and Kazon? > > Voth were a simple to explain one since it's a matter of them being able to kill players with reflected damage. Mostly an issue with spike DPS builds though. > > Kazon are a hilarious one because they actually DO have less predictable behaviors than most NPCs. Most hilarious is how they'll activate evasive maneuvers seemingly at random during fights. > > > > > > What's hilarious, is anyone thinking the Kazon are an issue. I have the 'Friends in unlike places' mission open, on all my 3 major toons, just so I can run Argala, repeatedly and fast, with ONLY Kazon. > > > > > I get annoyed by the pesky Hirogen in Argala, with their subnukes and other debuffs.
Science Team Boff FTW in there against the hirogen pop it after they placate you
The problem lies in defining what "reward" is. Sure, there's the simple, obvious "something players want", but the question is WHY they want them.
That's not a hard question. Players are people, and want the same things as people in general want:
1. Things that are necessary/useful for something they're doing or want to do
2. Things that look good and make them look good
3. Things that most other people don't have because they're rare, expensive or otherwise hard to get
It just occured to me maybe if all elites paid the same x marks payout. And all the advanced same thing same marks across the board they could all be equally popular again if tuneeaker's suggestions are implemented as well.
Random TFOs Sould have the choice marks only for all marks in the game. The individual queues having their indigenious marks or fleet marks as choices.
Advanced should be like 200ish marks IMHO and Elites probably 400ish. Normals we can make them great again by also having no mats but do as many of an objective to reach a possible 500 marks potentially with hard teamwork. Also i think TFOs should pay like elite due to taking the risk but be advanced maps.
Comments
I think so as well.
Also an isE release would surely kill isA all together.
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I think everybody can guess for himself who most likely queues up for build testing purposes and who just to grab some dil...
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NO! You get stuck with Druuge, or Thraddash. Or the VUX. Anything else would be a suspicion of you having fun.
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65.7% of all people know that already.
I think they need to add back RNG loot system back into STF's be it rare cosmetic rewards to even a small chance to get a set item out side of spending marks and dilithium.
With this new random STF system there adding it would seem like that would be a good time to add rare rewards out side of marks and dilithium. Give a very small chance to get a item from the factions rep rewards to even some very rare cosmetic rewards or ship skins. I think that would help a bit in the end game STO stagnation that has plagued the game since it went to 100% mark and dilithium system.
I know people complained about the old rng system but I think it was a mistake to remove it entirely. I think they should keep the earning system through rep while spicing up the STF loot table with a chance at a RNG reward. This would also allow them to target less used STFs with rewards as well.
On a last note I think they need to stream line how many STF's we have. I think each rep should only have one type to farming STF for space and ground and the rest so be in the random rotation.
I do not believe this will never happen.
Reason: Cryptic is solidly in the camp that offering new gear and ships is THE incentive to get players to come to play the game and pay.
Hence: constant events for long term players and fancy promos to gain new players.
There was a time when there were "rules", or steps, players would constantly repeat to those new to STFs (uh, what the hell are they calling them now? SFOs? Whatever). I believe it was more dependent on players working together to get the objectives. Now, it has become focused on bring one thing: DPS. And this is what is going to happen when people don't.
Relying on one "fail safe" with no alternative is that a good thing?
Time to come up with a back up plan of action...or everyone is going to turtle up in their caves, again.
Do those older "rules" no longer apply?
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Lack of DPS heavy players might mean such things are needed again i guess, but tbh even without players like the OP around in the pug runs, most are an easy enough victory. Powercreep has seen to it that most of the old rules are ignored now. Even with mediocre DPS you can still see a pug team at least complete a mission (optionals are obviously....optional)
I loved the fact the Rep items were built and earned from Salvaged tech. It made the value of those items far great and gave a greater sense of achievement. The problem with current awards isn't a case of lack of, it's that players will ALWAYS want more reward. Give it a few months of the new RTFO rewards and you'll see people complain it's still not enough. It's just the way of the world.
Players who know what they are doing don't need those rules anymore. They can simply faceroll the content with DPS. And the players who don't know what they're doing and could therefore use the rules...don't know what they're doing.
Catch-22. The low-performance players would need to learn the game better to rediscover those tactics. But if they learn the game, they won't be low-performance players anymore and won't need the tactics.
> tunebreaker wrote: »
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> rattler2 wrote: »
>
> peterconnorfirst wrote: »
>
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> And I was just jumping at your example cuz it highlights perfectly why the situation is so desolate!
>
> You want me to say that every map, no matter how bad it is designed has its price? Yea sure it does! I mean look at mirror incursion where dozen or hundreds of players endure it afk to grab marks and dil.
>
> The question is just, do you want a game that plays that way? Progress your characters only through boring and annoying content?
>
> Well I dont! Hence the thought of simply making the dead maps better, more fun or at least endurable and that through a few minor adjustments the OP suggests.
>
>
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>
> I wasn't saying anything like that. I was highlighting the one big contributor to the problem. Reward Payout. I won't deny some of the older STFs need some work to make them more fun. Azura Nebula being one of them. But as it stands now... quick payout trumps all. Until that is addressed, there is no incentive to play anything else, even if it is revamped.
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> Yet people are totally happy playing HSE for hours straight, warping out before scanning the escape pods. Thus not getting any rewards at all, but escaping the 30min CD to play the same mission again and again.
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> Guilty as charged!
I am too guilty of this probably done it 50x cause i needed the practice and the challenge
> redvenge wrote: »
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> They do not enjoy the queues. There is also a large number of players who hate Ground content. Borticus asked players awhile ago "what do you like about STO?". Most people in the thread talked about "story driven content", which is not the majority of queues. Feel free to browse the thread.
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>
> Facenating! Erm.. sorry but do we have any story driven content in game that has you log more than once in a while every few months? Anything?! I mean I was done with ViL new stories after like 4h of play time...
I myself playing since 2012, once i finish an episode i never want to do it again. If i do it's only because i had to
> meimeitoo wrote: »
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>
>
> I had to think of this (imaginary) convo from The Traveler:
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> TRAVELER: "Wesley understands things others don't."
> WESLEY: "Like that DPS and knowledge are not the separate things ppl think they are?"
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> I'd like to believe tunebreaker et al. are knowledgeable next to doing a lot of DPS. One might even conclude they they're doing a lot of DPS because they're knowledgeable.
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>
> Nah, nothing like that. We DPSers are just mindlessly blasting away, completely missing the nuanced and carefully mastered tactics developed by those who are knowledgeable™. Furthermore, DPS numbers are actually completely made up and those "parses" people are posting sometimes into chat are just completely random. If map is actually completed fast, definitely suspect hacking, cause it's known that using legit tactics an ISA simply can't be quicker than 15 minutes.
> Confirmed by zone, forums, and top fleet players.
Umm guess i TRIBBLE it and all i did was buff like hell and spacebar like hell heh
My character Tsin'xing
> warpangel wrote: »
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> You don't need to do anywhere near 100k to make the game a piece of cake.
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>
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> You don't? I dare you try to HSE, then. Your sub-100K isn't going to cut it there, HSE is like 200K DPS to pass.
120k minimum total team dps to avoid fail as confirmed by hellspawny
When i first stopped failing it my dps was 40k then with the top dpser doing like 70k and we had minutes to spare
> ruinthefun wrote: »
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> warpangel wrote: »
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> You don't need to do anywhere near 100k to make the game a piece of cake.
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> You don't? I dare you try to HSE, then. Your sub-100K isn't going to cut it there, HSE is like 200K DPS to pass.
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> HSE is a waste of time, more profit faster running ISA+CCA.
Miner Elite and Undine Assault instead for me due to holdings to build up efficient fm payout for the time invested plus a challenge with the risk if fail at the sane time
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> I’ve always felt the big queues like Big Dig, Breaking the Planet and Starbase Fleet Defense would be better as a sort of persistent mini battle zone that just resets after each successful mission. That way the map could adjust to how many players are there and you could run it with as many or few as we’re present.
> No more nightmare trying to get 20 players together with that.
>
This could totally work i agree
> rattler2 wrote: »
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> As of right now, the main source of knowledge on how to run a STF is from other players. But again this highlights a problem in the community. Communication.
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>
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> This goes back to that brain drain issue. Once a player has become experienced and knowledge about a queue, they will likely have exhausted any reason to play the queue and leave forever.
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> Take the Assault on Terok Nor queue. Most people have no idea how to play it. I spent a weekend studying this queue. I asked what few people who knew anything about it questions, I formed a premade just to poke and prod its nooks and crannies. I know its bugs and its strategies. At this point, I'm pretty much the game's foremost expert on this queue, knowing things nobody else does. It's actually not even a bad queue.
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> But I have no real reason to actually play it. There's simply nothing I can gain from doing so. Now if there was some kind of worthwhile shiny to obtain from the highest-end version of this, something people wanted, this would justify my regular attendance.
Ive done this with all optionals including the engineers health on advanced and quickly did getting shield down sequence but very low payout still for all that effort
> reyan01 wrote: »
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> How do we become "proficient in the Normal and Advanced versions of the events" which don't HAVE Normal or Advanced versions? (Korfez).
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> Fair point indeed.
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> The best way I can explain that is.. it's cryptic.. not everything makes sense.
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> That aside, the intent of Elite Queues is obvious.. it's even discernible from the name 'Elite.' I think most players would know that new or under geared players should probably not queue for something called 'Elite.'
Sadly they do indeed and sometimes results in an automatic fail not by thr system just because not enough dps in it. Ive done korez maybe four times failed once. Barely got it twice. Until i have 250k dps i cant see myself doing fez much heh
> Just try and keep it civil and on topic, guys. I've no interest in shutting down a discussion about the issues with queues.
Agreed thanks
> baddmoonrizin wrote: »
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> patrickngo wrote: »
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> tunebreaker wrote: »
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> meimeitoo wrote: »
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> patrickngo wrote: »
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> meimeitoo wrote: »
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> seaofsorrows wrote: »
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> I have to admit.. I sympathize with Cryptic here because I honestly don't have a solution for this problem. How do you make Normal rewarding enough for new players to play it while not leaving it open to exploitation from well geared players? Ideally, you want to attract new and under geared players to normals, and more experienced and a little better geared players into advanced. The problem is, this is a lot harder then it sounds.
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> I honestly don't know a good way to do it.
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>
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> Well, one way, albeit draconian (not including RA's) is to simply bar better players from doing Normals. "Reach lv 50? No more Normals for you!" And then step up the rewards for Normals a bit. But I can already see the forum rage, if they ever did that.
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>
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> problem being, your 'Normals' AND YOUR ADVANCED are both starting at 50 now.
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> When "Normal" started at 45, that might've been one way to gate it.
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> but it's a weak gating mechanism, since story progression now goes all the way up.
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> Better solution:
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> Normals open at level 40 (or 45, if you must) as they used to.
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> to 'qualify' for Advanced, you have to beat the 'normals' in each grouping first. all of them, both ground and space, with Optionals.
>
> set it up so you only have to do it once, but use that as your 'qualifying round' for Advanced, and offer 'down rated' versions of STF gear (mark x or mark XI maybe) in the rep store until you're actually qualled for Advanced, with a Level lock (50)
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> The problem, the way I see it (or, rather, if I understood @seaofsorrows correctly), is not so much inexperienced players doing Advanced queues, but better players steam-rolling Normal queues (if the rewards for Normals were any good). So, ideally, you want to prevent the latter. And not allowing you to do Normals any more, above, say, lv 50, would open the way for Cryptic to hand out some decent rewards in Normals too. And then, ironically, inexperienced players wouldn't feel the urge any more to do Advanced queues before they're really ready.
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> There's also nothing inherently wrong with gating it both ways, and do your 'Qualification Test' to gain entry to Advanced. Although I believe -- player resistance wise -- ppl will find it more palatable/fair for the more experienced players to just no longer have access to Normals.
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> Problem with that is, I would believe you'd hit level 50 (or even 65) before you'll have the chance to get into queues in the first place, given how much storyline missions we have these days. So, saying we do restrict the access, we should be doing it with a different criteria - but what would that be? Furthermore, this poses another problem, say I want to take my weaker ship and show out to someone how a queue works, in normal, cause they feel they are not ready for advanced (or Cryptic has implemented the "qualification test" as you said). What would be my solution then?
>
> And talking about something that rewards well in advanced (say Infected or Crystalline), are ISN and CCN really *that* bad? How much less marks do they give?
> Also, I don't think Normal getting a reward boost would do anything to drive more experienced players in it, if the rewards for Advanced and Elite stay competitively better. And plenty of those self-proclaimed "experienced" players *should* actually be doing normal in the first place.
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> here's your answer to the gating mechanism...
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> you have to complete the relevant storyline missions before the queue unlocks. and it only unlocks to "Normal" mode until you've beaten all the 'normal' modes, both ground and space from that set.
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> (AKA for the Borg STFs the 'borg' mission set, Dyson sphere the Dyson story set, etc.) You have to finish the relevant story-arc, then you get to queue for the "Normal" missions.
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> To Queue for 'Advanced' you have to beat the 'normal' queue missions (with all optionals) once. That means all six of the original STF's (Infected, Khitomer, and Cure, with optionals in "Normal" before you can advance to 'Advanced", and again, all six with optionals, before you can queue for 'elite' and unlock Hive ground and Space.)
>
> My proposal is kinda punitive though-to prevent sandbaggers from ruining it for people honestly trying to advance, the Rep store should offer the following:
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> MkX (Purple) gear until you've qualified for 'Advanced'. (trade-able)
> MkXII (Purple)gear until you've qualified for "Elite" (account trade able-you can give it to your alts)
> Mk XIV or Gold Mk XIII for Elites.(Character Locked)
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> yes, this means including lower-tier versions of sets, like we used to have, and to keep it 'spicy', the upgrade paths for "normal" have different stat boosts than for 'Advanced', and both have different upgrade/customizing paths from 'Elite'.
>
> This lets Borticus and Geko fool around with different powercreep metas, while giving crafters something to do, and for players who don't want to grind dil for upgrade tokens, there's a path to 'decent' gear by straight up pew-pewing PVE.
>
> basically opening gates. the accolade hunters get to hunt accolades, the people who want fail conditions and a sense of exclusivity get their merit-based pay, and the queues get...well, we have to eliminate the "all marks" boxes from Red Alerts. Seriously. need to go.
>
> but staging it (finish all of a given queue set before progressing to the next tier) is really kinda basic-you have to beat normal to do Advanced, you have to beat advanced to risk Elite, you need to be well-rounded to tackle the final, Elite mission because it's fundamentally LONGER than the warmups-and has additional mechanics, methods of success, and paths to failure.
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> Thus, creating that draw-progression.
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> And I'll hammer the one exception in the reps;
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> Competitive. Should be open at level 30, with tiered rewards and skill points, set up as an alternate leveling/progression from re-doing story missions on alts, or as a sop to try and bring back a PvP community that's dead-and-gone, but only because it's dead and gone and yet still advertised. There really IS no way to scale between normal/advanced/elite with the comp rep missions because the challenge comes from other players. Unlocking perhaps additional mission types by succeeding may be an option, and thus, you can eliminate the unused levels of PvP, by converting those into 'advanced' and 'elite' style maps for competitive rep players-but only with some serious work.
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> I actually like this.^
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> thanks. I don't think my ideas have any traction-they break a lot of the 'metas' that seem to dominate in Cryptic-Studios-land, and they might actually be too complicated to implement, but there's no harm in making a suggestion nobody will listen to.
>
> But I've watched the social changes in the game since early 2012/late 2011, and I took notes on some things, including how some things hit the community vs. how they were apparently intended to.
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> Rep was initially apparently supposed to make grinding easier by eliminating the random drops-that was the initial 'sell' for creating it, but what was traded away, was the sense of accomplishment people got from the sets, leaving just the game-stats and some dilithium, and five almost-dead queues after a fairly short time. (ten if you count the "normals", three ground, two space).
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> In every Rep so far, the pattern's happened the same way-as soon as it got easier to gen marks by doing Red Alerts, or by doing the braindead-easiest queue, the rest whithered away, no matter how good, satisfying, or challenging they were.
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> and complaints mounted here, and we saw the rise of a DPS "elite" (not how they describe themselves, but how others see them all too often.)
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> but that was just replacing the old "STF Elite" and "PvP Elite" communities. Human beings crave validation, they crave a sense of progression, and that's been largely removed from the intrinsic side of the queues, leaving behind a feeling of 'working a grindy job' to move a slider from left to right.
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> I don't think that was the devs intent-not when I'm being honest, at least, but I feel that's probably the outcome that has shaken out, and the system needs a shaking up as a result.
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> Piling on "hitpoints as difficulty" didn't work so hot either-as someone above me in this thread pointed out, it didn't make those queues more challenging, it just made them take longer to beat the exact same way.
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> There's gotta be a way to provide a sense of progression. Sometimes this means chucking some popular ideas, and revisiting what words mean.
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> "Normal difficulty"-you low mean average difficulty. 5K DPS and you don't have to think real hard and you'll beat it.
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> "Advanced Difficulty"-this is your high-average, say a floor of 18K or so DPS, with a small number of fail conditions, because it's for advanced players, which isn't a "level" thing so much as a "Thinking" thing-a rudimentary understanding of the basic mechanics, knowing or being able to guess out the basic objectives, fundamental reading comprehension, that sort of thing, it's not 'normal' and it's not 'elite'.
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> "Elite Difficulty"-should be a real challenge of both game mechanics, and players' ability to think,read, and understand what's going on in any given scenario, it's for dedicated gamers, not for 'average' players and not for players that didn't really understand what was going on in the first place. There should be failure conditions, and there should be (built in) mechanics that allow alternate strategies for players who look sideways instead of straight on ahead-elite options should include elements that make, for example, Cloaking a viable tactic instead of a short-lived crit bonus with a long cooldown, for ground, "Elite" should maybe include roguelike elements as an available strategy (bypassing pickets to assassinate under-bosses, making use of mobility and terrain instead of massed fire, etc..) It should press on ALL commonly available mechanics or careers, and that's true for both space and ground in my honest opinion...and it should be LONGER. Not with timegates, but multiple objectives, like the old pre-divided STF's, playing Elite should NOT be about grinding rewards, it should be about a sense of achieving things, the sort of group mission fleetmembers plan out to run, stock up on snacks, take a day (or night) off from work for...and brag about in the morning.
>
> with visible stuff to show off in game that you can't get from Normal, or Advanced, no matter how many billion marks you've accumulated.
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> and teh same should apply to that unwanted, redheaded step-cousin known as PvP/Competitive Rep. It should be hard, and you should absolutely NOT get rewarded for not playing it with the rewards for playing it.
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> basically, the multimarks boxes in Red Alerts are why a vast majority of queues are empty, and the reason the vast majority of "normal" queues are empty, is that you can skip right to 'advanced' without ever playing them-and there's an incentive for doing so, which leads to a lot of the problems-both 'unfair AFK' and 'trolling the queue' problems.
>
> but if there were a progression, if players have to earn their access to those higher rewards, you'd see a lot more involvement and a lot fewer people sporting KHG suits they got doing Borg Red Alert on repeat.
Agreed except advanced I'd make it more like 10k. Which is basically the beginning of fun in space in the queues and allows then to finally get materials like borg neural processors needed for reputation etc
> meimeitoo wrote: »
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> markhawkman wrote: »
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> lordsteve1 wrote: »
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> Genuine difficulty, the kind i'm sure most players are talking about would be things like giving the enemies the same abilities as players, random actions, faster movements, better pathing, improved AI.
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> Have you forgotten the tears of rage that flooded the forums with the Voth and Kazon?
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> Voth were a simple to explain one since it's a matter of them being able to kill players with reflected damage. Mostly an issue with spike DPS builds though.
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> Kazon are a hilarious one because they actually DO have less predictable behaviors than most NPCs. Most hilarious is how they'll activate evasive maneuvers seemingly at random during fights.
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> What's hilarious, is anyone thinking the Kazon are an issue.
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> I get annoyed by the pesky Hirogen in Argala, with their subnukes and other debuffs.
Science Team Boff FTW in there against the hirogen pop it after they placate you
> FYI: I pointed this thread out to Kael for feedback suggestions.
Awesome thanks
That's not a hard question. Players are people, and want the same things as people in general want:
1. Things that are necessary/useful for something they're doing or want to do
2. Things that look good and make them look good
3. Things that most other people don't have because they're rare, expensive or otherwise hard to get
Random TFOs Sould have the choice marks only for all marks in the game. The individual queues having their indigenious marks or fleet marks as choices.
Advanced should be like 200ish marks IMHO and Elites probably 400ish. Normals we can make them great again by also having no mats but do as many of an objective to reach a possible 500 marks potentially with hard teamwork. Also i think TFOs should pay like elite due to taking the risk but be advanced maps.