P2W additionally means that the ONLY way to pass certain portions of the game is to pay for it - which in STO's case, is 100% provably - and proven - false
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
P2W additionally means that the ONLY way to pass certain portions of the game is to pay for it - which in STO's case, is 100% provably - and proven - false
I watched that last PvP Bootcamp Tournament. So, not 100%
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
no, you can still beat someone in PvP without buying a single thing too, even if they used a credit card so much its turned into a smoking pile of ash - it just takes actual SKILL
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Any one of those players could have achieved their performance without spending a dime, no matter what their performance level is. Rattler has gotten the big expansion pack at least once with Dilithium, over on console you can do that with LTS. It doesn't matter what it is in STO, you can do it without money with the sole exception of LTS on PC.
Only one I haven't snapped up was the Legacy of Romulus Pack. Problem is I got most of the stuff in it already by now anyways so not really worth getting.
I kinda like being the Nut who ground out packs. At least I don't burn out anymore like I used to.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,596Community Moderator
This difficulty spike only exists if you don't invest in specs and setup rep traits. It's there because player power growth is also no longer a flat line.
I saw the difficulty spike after Delta Rising. I had to add Personal Traits or I had a hard time. So, I added personal traits. Anyone already using them, they would have had seen the spike but had nothing to offset it.
I have not seen the difficulty spike this time. I finally figured out it is where the gear is from. The stuff that comes from the missions, fleet, Rep, starship consoles....helps greatly off set this spike.
I been removing Specializations and ignoring Rep in Space and Starship Traits for the last month or so. Because I want to see what is going on.
Tonight I finally took a closer look at where all my stuff comes from. Very specifically. Removed Rep, Fleet, Mission Rewards from missions above Cardassian arc (where I was playing) and went plain jane gear. It is like night and day.
I am sure eventually, down the road, not having Specialization or Starship traits will be an issue. But I will wait until that time to add them back when it really is required. So I still have room to offset another spike.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Wow, sounds like Delta Rising had some useful consequences after all.
I test differently than you do. LOL! You guys keep piling on to push the limits.
I keep taking things off until I figure out where the breaking even point is.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
and finally, the giving-me-something-I-asked-for. When you look at the timing of the ship releases in August, and what ships they released, that really doesn't suggest the policies they've stuck to are doing the job. The fact the Vor'cha at Tier six is pretty much line for line what I was asking for feels weird-there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it...except that that is a radical behavior change and I can't parse it with how I've seen them operating for the last six years.
It only feels radical if you actually believe that drek about him hating the Vorcha….
I saw the difficulty spike after Delta Rising. I had to add Personal Traits or I had a hard time. So, I added personal traits.
Wow, sounds like Delta Rising had some useful consequences after all.
Hehe
But joking aside I never could straighten out for myself if or to what extend DR had any good impact on PvE or none at all. Most of the trouble started back in October 2014 so 4 years ago with its release. So what happened?
-> opposed to how it has been advertised “new” advanced was not the same as old elite. It was actually twice as hard with the new elite even being thrice or even up to five times as hard as old elite (take FEZ).
-> As a consequence the player-base “had to” undertake roughly twice the effort (via level 60+, specs, upgrades, ship traits) from what they had previously invested just to get the same pre-DR gaming experience out of it in “new” advanced as they had in old elite. For new or current elite mode a player needs to go the full spectrum to have it play smoothly so we really look at 3-5 times the effort you need to put into a toon to make it ready for FEZ today than you had to undertake in order to shine in old NWS for example. My respective builds cost a fraction of what they cost now.
-> What this boils down to is the bottom line question: Is it worth it for the player base to bring like 5 times the investments (for elite) or even 2 times (for advanced) just in order to have the same experience as back in 2012? Looking at the empty queue list only allows for a “hardly at best” as answer here and for a videogame this is as embarrassing as it can get.
For most of the players in STO endgame PvE today is simply not worth the effort to participate in while it has been back in 2012.
Cryptic has 2 choices. Either make PvE endgame 5 times as exciting (which is not going to happen) or try to “sell it” 5 times as “cheap” for it consumers which could be done through rewards/effort ratios easily. From all I can see the latter part works just fine on the respective maps and would just need to be expanded on those maps that are mentioned in your OP.
The way I see it, it would repair it. It would work. For you, me, the veteran, the beginner, the DPSer, the leecher and the AFKer. Peeps would queue up for whatever reason and we would get to play as a result.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
and finally, the giving-me-something-I-asked-for. When you look at the timing of the ship releases in August, and what ships they released, that really doesn't suggest the policies they've stuck to are doing the job. The fact the Vor'cha at Tier six is pretty much line for line what I was asking for feels weird-there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it...except that that is a radical behavior change and I can't parse it with how I've seen them operating for the last six years.
It only feels radical if you actually believe that drek about him hating the Vorcha….
Yeah, the problem seeems to me making a lot of assumptions and interpreting comments in a particular way that could be interpreted in many ways, and making that your "head canon" of how Cryptic operates and how its developers think.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Cryptic has 2 choices. Either make PvE endgame 5 times as exciting (which is not going to happen) or try to “sell it” 5 times as “cheap” for it consumers which could be done through rewards/effort ratios easily. From all I can see the latter part works just fine on the respective maps and would just need to be expanded on those maps that are mentioned in your OP.
The way I see it, it would repair it. It would work. For you, me, the veteran, the beginner, the DPSer, the leecher and the AFKer. Peeps would queue up for whatever reason and we would get to play as a result.
The problem with the current reward model is that it suffers from two major problems:
1. Homogeneity: Everything pays the same stuff: Marks, Widgets, Minerals. This means that only the most optimized content within a given reward class even has a place: Everything else is pointless.
2. Satiety: There is only use for a limited amount of what queues offer. Let us imagine for the sake of argument that the rewards on queues are increased. We might consider that this would make it more desirable to play the queues. But let's imagine that a queue awards over 9000 marks. This is absolutely massive. But how much will I play it? Once. What would I even do with over 9000 marks? My work here is done.
So you see how the solution being implemented now is critically flawed: It doesn't address any of these points. It doesn't offer me anything I want, nor can I sell what I don' t want to someone who does. There's nothing I can expect to actually gain after I've filled my quotas.
Rule of Acquisition #13: Anything worth doing is worth doing for money.
Rule of Acquisition #29: What's in it for me?
Well I agree with you. Your reward arguments are sound but even under current conditions we do have such a thing as maps getting played despite of it you know? For example here are half a dozen advanced space ones I can get to pop easily (or find peeps in chans for):
- CCA
- ISA
- CSA
- KSA
- UAA
- TFA
Now while the first two are STO forum’s victims of choice for too good effort/reward ratios why do I not have trouble getting players for the others as well?
Is it the Borg marks? The not quite so good as ISA but still okay Dil rewards? Crafting mats from undine? No. I don’t think so.
What it is is that people just like to pew pew for the fun of it, at least some of us do. We grind, we open boxes, we buy traits, we unlock gear and we all put it together on ships we like to… well “play” at the end of the day in a game which is about space pew pew. We have to do it somewhere and at the very least for those 25 minutes where ISA and CCA are on CD seem to accept certain other maps while so many more we could pick get not even considered.
Don’t get me wrong here, you arguments of distributed rewards are in the equation still somewhere, even for me, but it is not all of it.
I bet for every ISA that pops there are probably multiple reasons of the different participants at play here. One is in for build testing, the other one needs a plain DPS check, yet another one is on his way to get the omega rep done, another one needs the cutting beam and the 5th is just there to leech Dil.
If that what we already have works in ISA and a handful of other maps it can work elsewhere too without that much head scratching done by the devs.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Those maps @peterconnorfirst listed are one I play regularly. Why? Because they are ALL that pops. I dont have hours to sit and wait for a favourite to pop because my time to play is limited some days. So if o want to play anything I’m shoehorned into the usual suspects. And I think someone touched on it upthread too, why should I be trying to play the elite stuff if it’s so damned expensive to get a build and the rewards are TRIBBLE to boot. Plus finding people to run with is a nightmare for those of us outside of the top end circles. There’s just no incentive or engagement at end game in STO anymore, so we’re all just stuck farming resources to buy some pokey new lockbox ship, hoping it might bring us some enjoyment.
The most fun in STO is the levelling experience as a new player I feel, the end game is a depressing drudge filled with endless grinding and a lack of social interactions. No wonder people leave to play other games.
Those maps @peterconnorfirst listed are one I play regularly. Why? Because they are ALL that pops. I dont have hours to sit and wait for a favourite to pop because my time to play is limited some days. So if o want to play anything I’m shoehorned into the usual suspects.
And I think someone touched on it upthread too, why should I be trying to play the elite stuff if it’s so damned expensive to get a build and the rewards are **** to boot. Plus finding people to run with is a nightmare for those of us outside of the top end circles.
There’s just no incentive or engagement at end game in STO anymore, so we’re all just stuck farming resources to buy some pokey new lockbox ship, hoping it might bring us some enjoyment.
The most fun in STO is the levelling experience as a new player I feel, the end game is a depressing drudge filled with endless grinding and a lack of social interactions. No wonder people leave to play other games.
Yep it is really sad. The past 4 years I spend a long time hoping that perhaps just after the next iteration of power creep a break-even point of a sort for elite space maps would be reached. A point where the average player in game if you will feels encouraged enough to just queue up for space elites and mixed teams consisting of DPSer, averages and peeps at the beginning of the learning curve could have a rewarding and successful experience playing together there but it isn’t happening.
Unfortunately even the alternate view of things, "elite maps only for elite teams", isn’t happening either. Oh DPSer enjoy HSE a great deal and even a FEZ once in a while but as for the rest? Sadly not! Even if you manage get the right team of masochists for the other maps together and had some fun your reward wallet will make you cry after an hour and wonder why you just didn’t stick to admiralty instead.
Debugging this situation will be tricky and, what should be more than clear by now, won’t be done with just the next iteration of power creep.
But yea as others have pointet out, Cryptic would first need to see that the situation is worth to be resolved or fixed but for as long as Geko is at the helm I'm afraid we will still sit here in 2022 having the same discussion while the ISA DPS leqaderboard reads records of 900k DPS.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
What it is is that people just like to pew pew for the fun of it, at least some of us do. We grind, we open boxes, we buy traits, we unlock gear and we all put it together on ships we like to… well “play” at the end of the day in a game which is about space pew pew. We have to do it somewhere and at the very least for those 25 minutes where ISA and CCA are on CD seem to accept certain other maps while so many more we could pick get not even considered.
See, there's the flaw in your line of thinking. Everyone is not like you. Some of us don't "have to do it somewhere." Some of us look at the game, see that there's nothing we need to do in it, nothing to gain but more of the same, no meaningfull progress to make...and go do something else instead.
They don't need to attract people who "just like to pew pew for the fun of it." You guys are already playing the queues. They need to attract everyone else.
And turning everything into ISA lookalikes isn't going to do that.
Now while the first two are STO forum’s victims of choice for too good effort/reward ratios why do I not have trouble getting players for the others as well?
I don't really think I need to talk about the first two, so I'll just skip ahead: I've never actually seen anyone playing CSA or KSA, these are both pretty dead, but ultimately they're almost as easy and straightforward as ISA, and perhaps have some degree of nostalgia factor from the old guard. Not entirely sure why anyone bothers with these, though, since by the time you've finished ISA, you're into the daily penalty for Borg rep as there are no other reward choices from this.
UAA is, of course, another high-reward case where you can get a lot of marks for relatively little effort, although one that is not widely known. Watch it get nerfed because you HAD to bring that up. TFA is only a thing at all because of the dire state of the Lukari rep sources: This is pretty much the only one that people consider to be even playable at all.
Well yea for whatever the reasons they get played and picked by me (and oviously others) each day for private and public matches alike. Rewards may play into it but are not the entire story here.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I watched that last PvP Bootcamp Tournament. So, not 100%
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Only one I haven't snapped up was the Legacy of Romulus Pack. Problem is I got most of the stuff in it already by now anyways so not really worth getting.
I kinda like being the Nut who ground out packs. At least I don't burn out anymore like I used to.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I saw the difficulty spike after Delta Rising. I had to add Personal Traits or I had a hard time. So, I added personal traits. Anyone already using them, they would have had seen the spike but had nothing to offset it.
I have not seen the difficulty spike this time. I finally figured out it is where the gear is from. The stuff that comes from the missions, fleet, Rep, starship consoles....helps greatly off set this spike.
I been removing Specializations and ignoring Rep in Space and Starship Traits for the last month or so. Because I want to see what is going on.
Tonight I finally took a closer look at where all my stuff comes from. Very specifically. Removed Rep, Fleet, Mission Rewards from missions above Cardassian arc (where I was playing) and went plain jane gear. It is like night and day.
I am sure eventually, down the road, not having Specialization or Starship traits will be an issue. But I will wait until that time to add them back when it really is required. So I still have room to offset another spike.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Wow, sounds like Delta Rising had some useful consequences after all.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I test differently than you do. LOL! You guys keep piling on to push the limits.
I keep taking things off until I figure out where the breaking even point is.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My character Tsin'xing
Hehe
But joking aside I never could straighten out for myself if or to what extend DR had any good impact on PvE or none at all. Most of the trouble started back in October 2014 so 4 years ago with its release. So what happened?
-> opposed to how it has been advertised “new” advanced was not the same as old elite. It was actually twice as hard with the new elite even being thrice or even up to five times as hard as old elite (take FEZ).
-> As a consequence the player-base “had to” undertake roughly twice the effort (via level 60+, specs, upgrades, ship traits) from what they had previously invested just to get the same pre-DR gaming experience out of it in “new” advanced as they had in old elite. For new or current elite mode a player needs to go the full spectrum to have it play smoothly so we really look at 3-5 times the effort you need to put into a toon to make it ready for FEZ today than you had to undertake in order to shine in old NWS for example. My respective builds cost a fraction of what they cost now.
-> What this boils down to is the bottom line question: Is it worth it for the player base to bring like 5 times the investments (for elite) or even 2 times (for advanced) just in order to have the same experience as back in 2012? Looking at the empty queue list only allows for a “hardly at best” as answer here and for a videogame this is as embarrassing as it can get.
For most of the players in STO endgame PvE today is simply not worth the effort to participate in while it has been back in 2012.
Cryptic has 2 choices. Either make PvE endgame 5 times as exciting (which is not going to happen) or try to “sell it” 5 times as “cheap” for it consumers which could be done through rewards/effort ratios easily. From all I can see the latter part works just fine on the respective maps and would just need to be expanded on those maps that are mentioned in your OP.
The way I see it, it would repair it. It would work. For you, me, the veteran, the beginner, the DPSer, the leecher and the AFKer. Peeps would queue up for whatever reason and we would get to play as a result.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Well I agree with you. Your reward arguments are sound but even under current conditions we do have such a thing as maps getting played despite of it you know? For example here are half a dozen advanced space ones I can get to pop easily (or find peeps in chans for):
- CCA
- ISA
- CSA
- KSA
- UAA
- TFA
Now while the first two are STO forum’s victims of choice for too good effort/reward ratios why do I not have trouble getting players for the others as well?
Is it the Borg marks? The not quite so good as ISA but still okay Dil rewards? Crafting mats from undine? No. I don’t think so.
What it is is that people just like to pew pew for the fun of it, at least some of us do. We grind, we open boxes, we buy traits, we unlock gear and we all put it together on ships we like to… well “play” at the end of the day in a game which is about space pew pew. We have to do it somewhere and at the very least for those 25 minutes where ISA and CCA are on CD seem to accept certain other maps while so many more we could pick get not even considered.
Don’t get me wrong here, you arguments of distributed rewards are in the equation still somewhere, even for me, but it is not all of it.
I bet for every ISA that pops there are probably multiple reasons of the different participants at play here. One is in for build testing, the other one needs a plain DPS check, yet another one is on his way to get the omega rep done, another one needs the cutting beam and the 5th is just there to leech Dil.
If that what we already have works in ISA and a handful of other maps it can work elsewhere too without that much head scratching done by the devs.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
And I think someone touched on it upthread too, why should I be trying to play the elite stuff if it’s so damned expensive to get a build and the rewards are TRIBBLE to boot. Plus finding people to run with is a nightmare for those of us outside of the top end circles.
There’s just no incentive or engagement at end game in STO anymore, so we’re all just stuck farming resources to buy some pokey new lockbox ship, hoping it might bring us some enjoyment.
The most fun in STO is the levelling experience as a new player I feel, the end game is a depressing drudge filled with endless grinding and a lack of social interactions. No wonder people leave to play other games.
Yep it is really sad. The past 4 years I spend a long time hoping that perhaps just after the next iteration of power creep a break-even point of a sort for elite space maps would be reached. A point where the average player in game if you will feels encouraged enough to just queue up for space elites and mixed teams consisting of DPSer, averages and peeps at the beginning of the learning curve could have a rewarding and successful experience playing together there but it isn’t happening.
Unfortunately even the alternate view of things, "elite maps only for elite teams", isn’t happening either. Oh DPSer enjoy HSE a great deal and even a FEZ once in a while but as for the rest? Sadly not! Even if you manage get the right team of masochists for the other maps together and had some fun your reward wallet will make you cry after an hour and wonder why you just didn’t stick to admiralty instead.
Debugging this situation will be tricky and, what should be more than clear by now, won’t be done with just the next iteration of power creep.
But yea as others have pointet out, Cryptic would first need to see that the situation is worth to be resolved or fixed but for as long as Geko is at the helm I'm afraid we will still sit here in 2022 having the same discussion while the ISA DPS leqaderboard reads records of 900k DPS.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
My character Tsin'xing
They don't need to attract people who "just like to pew pew for the fun of it." You guys are already playing the queues. They need to attract everyone else.
And turning everything into ISA lookalikes isn't going to do that.
Well yea for whatever the reasons they get played and picked by me (and oviously others) each day for private and public matches alike. Rewards may play into it but are not the entire story here.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.