does the romulan star EMPIRE have an emperor? (and no, STO doesn't count) empires do not require the presence of emperors as heads of state
(not that i actually think the federation IS an empire, but if you're going to make a point about something, make sure something in star trek canon hasn't already pre-contradicted it)
The shows seem to indicate the RSE to be a parliamentary state, albeit one more akin to the USSR or PRC than modern Finland or Germany (or France, but France also has a quasi-ceremonial president so not quite the same thing). Diane Duane portrayed it in Rihannsu as a "noble republic", governed by a triad of aristocratic councils called the Tricameron with no head of state at all (a variation on the Roman Republic).
According to the novels, the Andorian Empire is actually a parliamentary republic: the last Empress deliberately died childless in the 19th century CE to ensure a transition to democracy.
We can plainly see on Earth that countries can call themselves whatever they want without it having much actual bearing on how they behave (reference the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea": the only really 100% accurate word in that is "of"). The central difference to my mind between a "federation" and an "empire" is that both are nations made up of nations, but the "federation" gives significantly more autonomy to its sub-nations than the "empire". Probably the best example IRL is the United States: foreigners are frequently taken aback by just how much power individual states wield -- they even have their own military forces (legally the National Guard in each state answers to its governor, not to POTUS). The US has become quite a bit more centralized over time, but we're still fundamentally a union of semi-autonomous republics with a superior central government, not a unitary state like France.
As far as expansionism, that's almost a tautology -- all populations are expansionist. Here again, the difference between "federation" and "empire" is one of practice: the UFP expands by colonization of uninhabited worlds and voluntary admission of members, not by conquest and subjugation of unwilling states. Whereas the Klingon Empire, well...
"We are Klingons, Worf. We don't embrace other cultures, we conquer them."
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm honestly surprised that current writers haven't sought to do a drastic reorganizing of the Federation's government structure, what with all the other reimaging going on.
There is the obvious case of Earth being the central attraction, with the seat of political and military power both being centered there and humanity practically running Starfleet. Its something that has actually been commented on by various aliens in the novels. In the old days it was done simply for convenience and budgetary reasons, but there really isn't any compelling reason anymore for Earth to be the seat of power for the Federation government. Whether it be a space station or colony the seat of power could easily be located in a neutral location.
Lets face it, on its worst days the Federation indulges in some pretty dubious things. In general I've always been pretty disturbed by how much unilateral authority starship captains can exercise when dealing with civilians. Captains have always seemed to have the ability to do whatever they pleased to citizens, particularly colonists. The part that makes it disturbing is that we see regularly that when a starship rolls in the colonists generally have little to no legal protections when a Captain starts barking orders and demands at them. Once the decision is made Federation citizens seem to have little recourse to challenge it.
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
That's part of the "societal differences" thing that Sisko yelled impotently about, and that Patrickngo and the others are getting at in the Masterverse stories - most Federation citizens, at least the Human ones, apparently typically do simply abandon worlds when the Council says so. The Maquis were being regarded by Starfleet Command as unreasonable, not rebellious, up until the guns came out. (And even then Admiral Nechayev was smugly certain that all they needed was a reminder of the Federation's position, and they'd fall into line - "They're still Federation citizens, aren't they?")
It's not the Federation that's authoritarian - it's the society at large. We have, however, seen occasions when civilian populations have been a headache for Our Heroes when they arrive, even when the demands Our Heroes make seem very reasonable (cf Omicron Ceti III, which the Enterprise was sent to evacuate upon the discovery of the lethal properties of the Berthold radiation Omicron Ceti produced, in TOS:"This Side of Paradise").
(And speaking of TOS, that's one aspect of it I miss as regards Federation rulership - in TOS, there was no "capital planet", but instead Federation Council meetings were held in other locations. In TOS:"Journey to Babel", the Enterprise was conveying several Federation ambassadors to a Council meeting on an asteroid dubbed "Babel" for a conference regarding a new world's application for Federation membership.)
Also, the President never has been a human for all we know and even if a council is supposed to make decisions.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
It doesn't happen often IRL, but it HAS happened. IF the colonists were an independent political entity you would have a valid point. But, they're not, they're a part of the Federation.
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
It doesn't happen often IRL, but it HAS happened. IF the colonists were an independent political entity you would have a valid point. But, they're not, they're a part of the Federation.
The problem is that the Federation tries to claim that it respects the rights of its member worlds to self-govern at the local level. From the way it was always described it sounded like this also included colony worlds. However with the Maquis worlds the central government unilaterally stripped away the right of self governance from those colonies and declared that if anyone defied this decree they would be treated as criminals.
That would be like if the EU's governing body ordered a member country to abandon a city so it could be given away to North Korea. Expecting everyone to just happily pack their bags and ship out is absurd.
I also find it a bit odd that after all this time we really haven't seen much in the way of a law enforcement apparatus for the Federation. It can't simply be left up to local jurisdictions, a criminal would simply have to jump to the next planet to avoid arrest. There would have to be some kind of Interpol style organization for law enforcement to function properly in the Federation. Having Starfleet, the defacto military, do it just rubs me the wrong way. A nations soldiers should never be ordered to turn their weapons against their own countrymen.
Gee, it's almost as if Starfleet doesn't function analogous to your military of choice? That's a real pickle!
Canonical infornation is sparse. There is, supposedly, a Federation Security agency which according to Okuda's DVD commentary of ST III is not Starfleet, yet the one agent wears insignia and Bones is later guarded by Starfleet Security despite him not being actively serving any more (I think?). Regardless, every serious pointer in canon suggests Starfleet Security polices Federation Space. I would say it's the same reason they perform defence: Because they have the manpower, resources and infrastructure for it. They double as a federal police but member worlds still have local law enforcement.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
It doesn't happen often IRL, but it HAS happened. IF the colonists were an independent political entity you would have a valid point. But, they're not, they're a part of the Federation.
The problem is that the Federation tries to claim that it respects the rights of its member worlds to self-govern at the local level. From the way it was always described it sounded like this also included colony worlds. However with the Maquis worlds the central government unilaterally stripped away the right of self governance from those colonies and declared that if anyone defied this decree they would be treated as criminals.
You don't seem to understand how self governance works. It means that the colony gets to make all decisions that affect the colony and only the colony. This however is a matter of interstellar treaty and falls outside that limited scope of self governance.
That would be like if the EU's governing body ordered a member country to abandon a city so it could be given away to North Korea. Expecting everyone to just happily pack their bags and ship out is absurd.
Except that's basically what happened when the DMZ between North and South Korea was created. Every city and town in the DMZ was abandoned.
And central Europe's current borders are a direct result of the world wars. In particular, Poland, which was on the winning side of WWII (in theory), had to give up its eastern half to the Russian SSR (i.e. the state of Russia that was part of the USSR). In exchange they got a similarly sized chunk of eastern Germany. So you had a bunch of Poles get unlanded and resettling in what had been Deutsch clay, and the Germans who had lived there were pretty much left to twist in the wind.
In the Federation's defense, it's implied that part of what brought on the Federation-Cardassian war was in fact a disputed border that resulted in Cardassian and Federation colonies getting jumbled together. Part of the peace settlement was to officially draw a clear border, but that meant frakking with the people on BOTH sides who lived there. (Which is not to say that the Federation necessarily made the right call, only that you can't please everyone.)
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'm not trying to say that land grabs and political oppression don't happen in real life. I'm simply pointing out that it is disheartening that we see this from a fictional nation that is constantly cited as this utopian paradise that holds the rights and freedoms of its citizens as sacred.
----
As for the Federation-Cardassian border wars, that whole can of worms never made sense to me. We know that the Federation at that point in time was pretty timid when it came to confrontations, so I really doubt they would start plunking down colonies if the Cardassian's had made any type of prior claim to the region. Based on what we know of the Cardassians it seems more likely that they saw the infrastructure being built and decided to seize it for themselves, counting on the Federation Council to choose appeasement rather than doing their own duty to defend their borders.
What seems to be being left out with regards to the Maquis is that they weren't criminalised for not leaving their homes, were they? They were criminalised for shooting down Cardassian civilian transports. Slightly different.
"The Federation disbanded it's military because an organization of people with heavily armed ships and combat equipment trained and organized in a strict command hierarchy responsible for defending the Federation and it's interests with force didn't fit their ethos. So instead they created an organization of people with heavily armed ships and combat equipment, trained and organized in a strict command hierarchy responsible for defending the Federation and it's interests with force, but who are peaceful explorers! See? It's TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!"
Starfleet by any definition serves the military of the Federation, it just so happens that the political and cultural conditions in the Federation mean it has a heavier emphasis on humanitarian and exploration activities than it's combat role.
The only reason this really seems to be an issue is that Gene apparently had some hangup about 'military=bad wrong evil scary primitive', so no way would his enlightened 24th century humans have one! They would have a peaceful exploration not-military..that just happens to do everything a military does.
What seems to be being left out with regards to the Maquis is that they weren't criminalized for not leaving their homes, were they? They were criminalized for shooting down Cardassian civilian transports. Slightly different.
Well, that was the crime that required a firm immediate response. But it came after they decided that they didn't want to leave. Also the specific reason for attacking Cardassian ships is that the Cardassians were trying to occupy the planets that had been ceded to them by the treaty, often peacefully.
I'm not trying to say that land grabs and political oppression don't happen in real life.
Does this count as oppression? I would argue that it doesn't. This is creating a formally recognized border.
As for the Federation-Cardassian border wars, that whole can of worms never made sense to me. We know that the Federation at that point in time was pretty timid when it came to confrontations, so I really doubt they would start plunking down colonies if the Cardassians had made any type of prior claim to the region. Based on what we know of the Cardassians it seems more likely that they saw the infrastructure being built and decided to seize it for themselves, counting on the Federation Council to choose appeasement rather than doing their own duty to defend their borders.
that's just it, it's not clear that the Feds were innocent in this. The TNG ep made it seem like prior to the war there was no formally recognized border. Thus the conflict came about because the Cardassians and Feds couldn't agree on who owned the various planets. As an old saying goes: "possession is 9/10ths of the law." The source of this? well, land grabs. People on both sides saw systems as unclaimed simply because they were uninhabited. In the case of Dorvan V, it was settled DESPITE knowing the Cardassians claimed it.
that's just it, it's not clear that the Feds were innocent in this. The TNG ep made it seem like prior to the war there was no formally recognized border. Thus the conflict came about because the Cardassians and Feds couldn't agree on who owned the various planets. As an old saying goes: "possession is 9/10ths of the law." The source of this? well, land grabs. People on both sides saw systems as unclaimed simply because they were uninhabited. In the case of Dorvan V, it was settled DESPITE knowing the Cardassians claimed it.
It would be interesting to see how borders would work if the aliens in Star Trek were truly diverse. If the Cardassians were methane breathers, then there would be no point in the Cardassians colonizing Earth-like planets. There would be conflicts based on resources, but not land. For extremely alien species like ones that live in gas giants, they might not even care what humanoids are in their star systems as long as the humanoids don't do something extremely stupid like use their children as warp fuel. Let the humanoids colonize the rocky planets while the alien that live in gas giants colonize gas giants.
that's how the tholian assembly operates - the worlds they inhabit are uncolonizable by the majority of carbon-based life, so they don't need to worry about anyone invading their territory and stealing worlds from them
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
that's how the tholian assembly operates - the worlds they inhabit are uncolonizable by the majority of carbon-based life, so they don't need to worry about anyone invading their territory and stealing worlds from them
But they do have to worry since within their territory might be prime real estate for humanoids. Of course, it is possible that they Tholian-form all the planets in their territory.
that's how the tholian assembly operates - the worlds they inhabit are uncolonizable by the majority of carbon-based life, so they don't need to worry about anyone invading their territory and stealing worlds from them
But they do have to worry since within their territory might be prime real estate for humanoids. Of course, it is possible that they Tholian-form all the planets in their territory.
Well, the Tholians' entire schtick is that nobody has any real idea what their schtick actually is, so anything's possible.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There is some hint in "Ensigns of Command" that the Sheliak treaty covered specific planets and not entire solar systems. So maybe it DOES sometimes work that way. But that implies a level of trust that some races don't have. The Cardassians just didn't like having neighbors within a solar system. Also there's the question of who owns the solar system. You have Sheliak on world A, Cardassians on B, who owns the asteroid belt? This of course can be settled with treaty stipulations. It does make the situation more interesting though.
Federation is not a military... Starfleet IS military. Each member world of the Fed can also have it's own Military/SDF. It would be like the UN if it had it's own standing military force... then they wouldn't need to have member states voluntary their forces to do various "peace keeping" assignments.
[Mod Hat] Already a thread for this active in the last 30 days; it's on the second page right now. [/Mod Hat]
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
The shows seem to indicate the RSE to be a parliamentary state, albeit one more akin to the USSR or PRC than modern Finland or Germany (or France, but France also has a quasi-ceremonial president so not quite the same thing). Diane Duane portrayed it in Rihannsu as a "noble republic", governed by a triad of aristocratic councils called the Tricameron with no head of state at all (a variation on the Roman Republic).
According to the novels, the Andorian Empire is actually a parliamentary republic: the last Empress deliberately died childless in the 19th century CE to ensure a transition to democracy.
We can plainly see on Earth that countries can call themselves whatever they want without it having much actual bearing on how they behave (reference the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea": the only really 100% accurate word in that is "of"). The central difference to my mind between a "federation" and an "empire" is that both are nations made up of nations, but the "federation" gives significantly more autonomy to its sub-nations than the "empire". Probably the best example IRL is the United States: foreigners are frequently taken aback by just how much power individual states wield -- they even have their own military forces (legally the National Guard in each state answers to its governor, not to POTUS). The US has become quite a bit more centralized over time, but we're still fundamentally a union of semi-autonomous republics with a superior central government, not a unitary state like France.
As far as expansionism, that's almost a tautology -- all populations are expansionist. Here again, the difference between "federation" and "empire" is one of practice: the UFP expands by colonization of uninhabited worlds and voluntary admission of members, not by conquest and subjugation of unwilling states. Whereas the Klingon Empire, well...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
There is the obvious case of Earth being the central attraction, with the seat of political and military power both being centered there and humanity practically running Starfleet. Its something that has actually been commented on by various aliens in the novels. In the old days it was done simply for convenience and budgetary reasons, but there really isn't any compelling reason anymore for Earth to be the seat of power for the Federation government. Whether it be a space station or colony the seat of power could easily be located in a neutral location.
Lets face it, on its worst days the Federation indulges in some pretty dubious things. In general I've always been pretty disturbed by how much unilateral authority starship captains can exercise when dealing with civilians. Captains have always seemed to have the ability to do whatever they pleased to citizens, particularly colonists. The part that makes it disturbing is that we see regularly that when a starship rolls in the colonists generally have little to no legal protections when a Captain starts barking orders and demands at them. Once the decision is made Federation citizens seem to have little recourse to challenge it.
The simple fact that the Maquis situation happened at all speaks volumes to this. Stripping a colony of its right to exist and criminalizing the colonists ability to challenge the decision is absurdly authoritarian.
It's not the Federation that's authoritarian - it's the society at large. We have, however, seen occasions when civilian populations have been a headache for Our Heroes when they arrive, even when the demands Our Heroes make seem very reasonable (cf Omicron Ceti III, which the Enterprise was sent to evacuate upon the discovery of the lethal properties of the Berthold radiation Omicron Ceti produced, in TOS:"This Side of Paradise").
(And speaking of TOS, that's one aspect of it I miss as regards Federation rulership - in TOS, there was no "capital planet", but instead Federation Council meetings were held in other locations. In TOS:"Journey to Babel", the Enterprise was conveying several Federation ambassadors to a Council meeting on an asteroid dubbed "Babel" for a conference regarding a new world's application for Federation membership.)
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The problem is that the Federation tries to claim that it respects the rights of its member worlds to self-govern at the local level. From the way it was always described it sounded like this also included colony worlds. However with the Maquis worlds the central government unilaterally stripped away the right of self governance from those colonies and declared that if anyone defied this decree they would be treated as criminals.
That would be like if the EU's governing body ordered a member country to abandon a city so it could be given away to North Korea. Expecting everyone to just happily pack their bags and ship out is absurd.
I also find it a bit odd that after all this time we really haven't seen much in the way of a law enforcement apparatus for the Federation. It can't simply be left up to local jurisdictions, a criminal would simply have to jump to the next planet to avoid arrest. There would have to be some kind of Interpol style organization for law enforcement to function properly in the Federation. Having Starfleet, the defacto military, do it just rubs me the wrong way. A nations soldiers should never be ordered to turn their weapons against their own countrymen.
Canonical infornation is sparse. There is, supposedly, a Federation Security agency which according to Okuda's DVD commentary of ST III is not Starfleet, yet the one agent wears insignia and Bones is later guarded by Starfleet Security despite him not being actively serving any more (I think?). Regardless, every serious pointer in canon suggests Starfleet Security polices Federation Space. I would say it's the same reason they perform defence: Because they have the manpower, resources and infrastructure for it. They double as a federal police but member worlds still have local law enforcement.
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In the Federation's defense, it's implied that part of what brought on the Federation-Cardassian war was in fact a disputed border that resulted in Cardassian and Federation colonies getting jumbled together. Part of the peace settlement was to officially draw a clear border, but that meant frakking with the people on BOTH sides who lived there. (Which is not to say that the Federation necessarily made the right call, only that you can't please everyone.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
----
As for the Federation-Cardassian border wars, that whole can of worms never made sense to me. We know that the Federation at that point in time was pretty timid when it came to confrontations, so I really doubt they would start plunking down colonies if the Cardassian's had made any type of prior claim to the region. Based on what we know of the Cardassians it seems more likely that they saw the infrastructure being built and decided to seize it for themselves, counting on the Federation Council to choose appeasement rather than doing their own duty to defend their borders.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Starfleet by any definition serves the military of the Federation, it just so happens that the political and cultural conditions in the Federation mean it has a heavier emphasis on humanitarian and exploration activities than it's combat role.
The only reason this really seems to be an issue is that Gene apparently had some hangup about 'military=bad wrong evil scary primitive', so no way would his enlightened 24th century humans have one! They would have a peaceful exploration not-military..that just happens to do everything a military does.
My character Tsin'xing
It would be interesting to see how borders would work if the aliens in Star Trek were truly diverse. If the Cardassians were methane breathers, then there would be no point in the Cardassians colonizing Earth-like planets. There would be conflicts based on resources, but not land. For extremely alien species like ones that live in gas giants, they might not even care what humanoids are in their star systems as long as the humanoids don't do something extremely stupid like use their children as warp fuel. Let the humanoids colonize the rocky planets while the alien that live in gas giants colonize gas giants.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
But they do have to worry since within their territory might be prime real estate for humanoids. Of course, it is possible that they Tholian-form all the planets in their territory.
Well, the Tholians' entire schtick is that nobody has any real idea what their schtick actually is, so anything's possible.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/