I noticed in another thread some people vehemently denying starfleet is a military. My question is how is it not?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
aside from all that, all of the characters on the show continuously call Starfleet a military. Not to mention Carol Markus bitching about the military always imposing their will on scientists in the Wrath of Khan. People who say that SF isnt military are just denying it because they like to believe that it's possible to FORCE people to be peaceful without a military, but it's not.
aside from all that, all of the characters on the show continuously call Starfleet a military.
[Citation needed].
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I noticed in another thread some people vehemently denying starfleet is a military. My question is how is it not?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
aside from all that, all of the characters on the show continuously call Starfleet a military. Not to mention Carol Markus bitching about the military always imposing their will on scientists in the Wrath of Khan. People who say that SF isnt military are just denying it because they like to believe that it's possible to FORCE people to be peaceful without a military, but it's not.
Carol Marcus never said any such thing. Her son David did complain, when the dominated Chekov called them to tell them to turn over the Genesis research, "It's what I've been saying all along! Scientists have always been pawns of the military!"
It may be worth noting that nobody tried to correct him on that - Carol just refused to believe that Jim Kirk had anything to do with the "order".
Remember that we're dealing with people 300 - 400 years from now. How they define a "military" may be different from how we define a military. It could be broader, or it could be narrower. Similarly (but not quite the same), the duties of an organization labeled as a military may also be broader or narrower.
That's the point. Starfleet clearly provides the defence of the Federation that, what is currently defined as, a military would however it's also clear that the definition of military in the future does not include Starfleet.
In which case, this whole debate boils down to whether you want to use their definition or our definition. Given that we're discussing this with 21st century humans and not 24th century humans, it probably makes more sense to use our definition.
Well any discussion of Starfleets role necessitates canonical information not what we want it to be. Thus we need to work out and use their definitions. Otherwise you're just forcing your own headcanon onto irrelevant situations.
Case in point was all that wittering about how Starfleet was somehow violating 21st century US military particulars despite it being explicitly not a military at all US based or otherwise.
A difference in terminology is not a question of what's canon or non-canon, it's a question of communicating clearly with the people you're speaking to. The things that happened in Star Trek episodes do not change depending on whether we call Starfleet a military or not, but people's understanding of what Starfleet does will. If our definition of military fits Starfleet, then it's accurate to call Starfleet a military even if it's not considered a military in the 24th century, because you're not talking to people in the 24th century.
If people in the 24th century don't think Starfleet is a military, that's worth knowing, but it doesn't mean somebody from the 21st century would be wrong to call Starfleet a military according to a 21st century definition.
For example, if you go by the Wikipedia definition that "A military or an armed force is a professional organization formally authorized by a sovereign state to use lethal or deadly force and weapons to support the interests of the state", then Starfleet clearly qualifies because whatever else they do, they are certainly authorized by the Federation to use lethal or deadly force to support the Federation's interests.
That doesn't make sense. They repeatedly tell you this to make sure you get it, it is a important part of the story you are watching. Scotty doesn't need to tell Kirk that, it's exposition. Everyone knows the nature of the job one does. If anyone thinks that's 'distespectfull' it's on them, one could walk away from the thing one feels insults one's values. But making stuff up so it fits headcanon again is just that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
DAVID: (and others) Who the hell, do they think they are?
CAROL: Will you please be quiet! Commander Chekov, this is completely irregular.
CHEKOV (on viewscreen): I have my orders.
DAVID: Pin him down, Mother. Who gave the order?
CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk.
DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> @khan5000 said: > Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan: > > DAVID: (and others) Who the hell, do they think they are? > CAROL: Will you please be quiet! Commander Chekov, this is completely irregular. > CHEKOV (on viewscreen): I have my orders. > DAVID: Pin him down, Mother. Who gave the order? > CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk. > DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
Holy squeal, batman! Completely new evidence! We need to reevaluate everything!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I already covered the TWoK thing about two pages ago.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I disagree it's a military, in that an ability to defend itself isn't automatically military, but Starfleet is flexible enough to act in a military fashion where needed i.e. Dominion War. Primarily though they are a humanitarian and scientific organisation. At least that's how I see it.
"We've learned that friendship isn't always easy. But there's no doubt it's worth fighting for."
The only military in the Federation is the Military Assault Command Operations (MACO).
The MACO don't exist in the Federation. They were an Earth military that was disbanded when the Federation was founded.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I noticed in another thread some people vehemently denying starfleet is a military. My question is how is it not?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
If you look at organizations like Police Forces (esp. SWAT and Special Forces), Customs, Border and Coast Guards in most countries, they would also qualify as "military" per your definition. Armoured vehicles, tanks, heavy machine guns, military aircraft, armed ships and a strict military-like rank and organizational structure. Even their training and missions often reflect that of a "true" military, yet they're legally not military, but don't consider themselves civilian either.
Since we only have bits and pieces from the canon, on which everyone is able to make their own (valid) definition on weather Starfleet is military or not, mine is that they are a non-military organization,but, much like or modern day, civilian security forces, have become virtually indistiguishable from the military in purpose and appearance.
I noticed in another thread some people vehemently denying starfleet is a military. My question is how is it not?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
If you look at organizations like Police Forces (esp. SWAT and Special Forces), Customs, Border and Coast Guards in most countries, they would also qualify as "military" per your definition. Armoured vehicles, tanks, heavy machine guns, military aircraft, armed ships and a strict military-like rank and organizational structure. Even their training and missions often reflect that of a "true" military, yet they're legally not military, but don't consider themselves civilian either.
Since we only have bits and pieces from the canon, on which everyone is able to make their own (valid) definition on weather Starfleet is military or not, mine is that they are a non-military organization,but, much like or modern day, civilian security forces, have become virtually indistiguishable from the military in purpose and appearance.
Blame the nebulous nature of our current conflicts and the militarism that's gotten into us since 9/11 for a lot of that: your average police department has next to zero actual need for an MRAP. However, police forces, border patrol etc. still aren't usually expected to fight long-term conflicts against similarly equipped opponents. Conversely, in the US you can draw one very explicit distinction, and that's that the US military is prohibited from taking part in domestic law enforcement duties (outside of law enforcement inside the military itself, obviously). That has to do with the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed following the War of Southern Aggression. (The National Guard and Coast Guard are gray areas—the National Guard technically answers to state governments rather than the President, while the Coasties are under the Department of Homeland Security.)
This is a significant difference, but you can probably it down to the nature of space in the Star Trek universe: Starfleet appears to have authority to enforce federal law, but it's in a similar fashion to organizations such as the Royal Navy being the only law available in much of the pre-WWI British Empire (again, the Age of Sail referencing).
Really, I find the debate to be mostly academic, although it makes good Canon Fodder. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That doesn't make sense. They repeatedly tell you this to make sure you get it, it is a important part of the story you are watching. Scotty doesn't need to tell Kirk that, it's exposition. Everyone knows the nature of the job one does. If anyone thinks that's 'distespectfull' it's on them, one could walk away from the thing one feels insults one's values. But making stuff up so it fits headcanon again is just that.
I can't tell, were you addressing the post I made right above yours, or something else?
I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Imagine Earth had no other nation than the USA, and there was simply no way the USA would ever fight in a war again.
Would the Navy, Army or Air FOrce still exist? I think not, because the primary purpose they were made for is dealing with war and military conflicts. You certainly still want a disaster relief and recovery service, a police, fire brigades and the like. But you wouldn't really need an army or air force for that. You would probably still have something like the NASA, because space exploration requires professionals, due to how difficult and dangerous it is.
Imagine a Star Trek world where the Federation is the only place you can find sapient beings, there is proof there was no other alien life, hostile or friendly anywhere. Would Starfleet still exist? I think yes, because you still need to explore space and it's still a frigging dangerous thing you need professionals for. You probably even still need phasers, photon torpedoes and shields because some negative space wedgies can be dealt with only that way.
And, in the other direction:
If all your country has are police officers and firemen and disaster relief workers but no soldiers, when a war breaks out, you might call upon them to defend your country.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
url=https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonFodder]Canon Fodder[/url]. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
As a CM, you have the authority to deal with it using other ways than just getting annoyed. Just saying.
I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
It's a military as much as they say it's not...I'm gonna take the word of people who deny Section 31hahaha yeaaahh if Star Fleet isn't a military I have a bridge to sell you in Lakarian City
Chairman of the Tal'Shiar Koval ,explained the S31 situation very well ,
" ... There is no Section 31. Sloan, in fact, works for Starfleet Intelligence. Far from being the master of a rogue agency, he is simply one of many operatives in the employ of the Federation. He's had a long career, most of which is still unknown to us. However, there is one interesting element that we do know. He was the protégé of the late Vice Admiral Fujisaki. Sloan did not take the death of his mentor well. He came to believe he was murdered by the Tal'Shiar. In his eyes, the assassination of a Starfleet admiral was stepping over the line. Isn't that the phrase? After Fujisaki's death, he was confronted with a dilemma. How could he seek vengeance without violating the Federation laws? His answer was to invent Section 31, a rogue organisation that answered to no one. ... "
Chairman of the Tal'Shiar Koval ,explained the S31 situation very well ,
" ... There is no Section 31. Sloan, in fact, works for Starfleet Intelligence. Far from being the master of a rogue agency, he is simply one of many operatives in the employ of the Federation. He's had a long career, most of which is still unknown to us. However, there is one interesting element that we do know. He was the protégé of the late Vice Admiral Fujisaki. Sloan did not take the death of his mentor well. He came to believe he was murdered by the Tal'Shiar. In his eyes, the assassination of a Starfleet admiral was stepping over the line. Isn't that the phrase? After Fujisaki's death, he was confronted with a dilemma. How could he seek vengeance without violating the Federation laws? His answer was to invent Section 31, a rogue organisation that answered to no one. ... "
...
It would have been easy to label Section 31 as the delusions of a broken man except for the fact that Into Darkness and Discovery has Section 31. Into Darkness is in an alternate reality so it could be a mere coincidence that Section 31 existed as a delusion of Sloan and as an actual organization created as a result of Nero's actions or it could have existed since before 2233.
With Discovery, it depends on if Section 31 existed during TOS or TNG, but never mentioned or if Discovery is part of a new timeline. I could easily see the Borg not invading 21st Century Earth and no Section 31 in the original timeline and the Borg invasion giving some of the survivors of the attack, the drive to protect Earth at any cost resulting in a clandestine organization preceding Section 31 in the new timeline.
Canon Fodder. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
As a CM, you have the authority to deal with it using other ways than just getting annoyed. Just saying.
[Mod Hat] I'm not willing to use my position as community moderator to simply shut down people who disagree with me; I consider that abuse of authority. I made an exception for No True Scotsmans re: DSC and KT because I found a convincing argument that they're personally insulting to people who enjoy those series (ergo they're flame bait), but outside of that I don't even want to look like I'm trying to censor opposing views.
And this is technically discussion of moderation, so that's all I'm going to say about it. /topic [/Mod Hat]
Chairman of the Tal'Shiar Koval ,explained the S31 situation very well ,
" ... There is no Section 31. Sloan, in fact, works for Starfleet Intelligence. Far from being the master of a rogue agency, he is simply one of many operatives in the employ of the Federation. He's had a long career, most of which is still unknown to us. However, there is one interesting element that we do know. He was the protégé of the late Vice Admiral Fujisaki. Sloan did not take the death of his mentor well. He came to believe he was murdered by the Tal'Shiar. In his eyes, the assassination of a Starfleet admiral was stepping over the line. Isn't that the phrase? After Fujisaki's death, he was confronted with a dilemma. How could he seek vengeance without violating the Federation laws? His answer was to invent Section 31, a rogue organisation that answered to no one. ... "
...
One character's opinion, and given that Koval is himself a mole for Starfleet Intelligence, I don't find that opinion a trustworthy source.
I do, however, prefer the interpretation that Section 31 isn't an organization that is supposed to exist, as much as a one-off black project that got out of hand and took on an ultranationalist ideology. That seems truer to the spirit of Star Trek and I think it makes for better commentary.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
> starswordc said:
> tunebreaker wrote: »
>
> starswordc wrote: »
>
>
> Chairman of the Tal'Shiar Koval ,explained the S31 situation very well ,
>
> " ... There is no Section 31. Sloan, in fact, works for Starfleet Intelligence. Far from being the master of a rogue agency, he is simply one of many operatives in the employ of the Federation. He's had a long career, most of which is still unknown to us. However, there is one interesting element that we do know. He was the protégé of the late Vice Admiral Fujisaki. Sloan did not take the death of his mentor well. He came to believe he was murdered by the Tal'Shiar. In his eyes, the assassination of a Starfleet admiral was stepping over the line. Isn't that the phrase? After Fujisaki's death, he was confronted with a dilemma. How could he seek vengeance without violating the Federation laws? His answer was to invent Section 31, a rogue organisation that answered to no one. ... "
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
> One character's opinion, and given that Koval is himself a mole for Starfleet Intelligence, I don't find that opinion a trustworthy source.
>
> I do, however, prefer the interpretation that Section 31 isn't an organization that is supposed to exist, as much as a one-off black project that got out of hand and took on an ultranationalist ideology. That seems truer to the spirit of Star Trek and I think it makes for better commentary.
For better or worse (I personally despise S31), it is now firmly implanted into the fabric of Trek. Enterprise, The Kelvin Timeline, and Discovery all include it. If it had never come back up after Sloan's death then yeah one man's delusion, but no thats not the way its worked out.
Personally, I don't count Enterprise or Into Darkness as evidence of the existence of Section 31. It is implied that Reed's former organization became Section 31 and maybe if there was a Season 5, then it might have been confirmed. However, implying something doesn't make it fact. Into Darkness is set in an alternate reality and events that happened before 2233 so it has no bearing on the Prime Universe. The only evidence that Section 31 exists in the Prime Universe is the "Welcome to Section 31" bonus scene from Discovery. Although that can change with Season 2 since I doubt we have seen the last of Empress Georgiou.
ent s31 op , rogue officer wanted to sell stuff to the klingons ...
kelvin ... , the admiral was not right in the head ...
dscvry ... , the man wanted some action ...
However, we do see 2 black badges in Discovery. One worn by some guard when Burnham first boards the Discovery in her prisoner garb and the other when the 'Section 31' agent gives it to Empress Georgiou. Even if there is no Section 31 in Discovery, the guard and the human pretending to be Trill belong to the same clandestine organization or at least have access to the badges for the same clandestine organization.
@mustrumridcully0 True. Just change US into UN, and you have roughly what the idea of the UFP and Starfleet was based on.
Regarding the S31 side topic, it was meant to be a one-off enemy within, but it became a cornerstone of the franchise. People became uncomfortable with the idea of a 'better society' and wanted the UFP only to exist because it does the same shady stuff that everyone else does. Cynicism is what it's all about.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Regarding the S31 side topic, it was meant to be a one-off enemy within, but it became a cornerstone of the franchise. People became uncomfortable with the idea of a 'better society' and wanted the UFP only to exist because it does the same shady stuff that everyone else does. Cynicism is what it's all about.
And I doubt that Roddenberry would have allowed Section 31 to be a thing in the idealistic future of Star Trek if he was still around. 24th Century Humans were supposed to have evolved beyond the need for clandestine organizations that does the dirty work that Starfleet doesn't want to do. I believe that the popularity of Section 31 is due to the same reason why Game of Thrones is popular, peace is boring to watch while conflict is fun to watch.
Comments
aside from all that, all of the characters on the show continuously call Starfleet a military. Not to mention Carol Markus bitching about the military always imposing their will on scientists in the Wrath of Khan. People who say that SF isnt military are just denying it because they like to believe that it's possible to FORCE people to be peaceful without a military, but it's not.
[Citation needed].
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It may be worth noting that nobody tried to correct him on that - Carol just refused to believe that Jim Kirk had anything to do with the "order".
A difference in terminology is not a question of what's canon or non-canon, it's a question of communicating clearly with the people you're speaking to. The things that happened in Star Trek episodes do not change depending on whether we call Starfleet a military or not, but people's understanding of what Starfleet does will. If our definition of military fits Starfleet, then it's accurate to call Starfleet a military even if it's not considered a military in the 24th century, because you're not talking to people in the 24th century.
If people in the 24th century don't think Starfleet is a military, that's worth knowing, but it doesn't mean somebody from the 21st century would be wrong to call Starfleet a military according to a 21st century definition.
For example, if you go by the Wikipedia definition that "A military or an armed force is a professional organization formally authorized by a sovereign state to use lethal or deadly force and weapons to support the interests of the state", then Starfleet clearly qualifies because whatever else they do, they are certainly authorized by the Federation to use lethal or deadly force to support the Federation's interests.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
DAVID: (and others) Who the hell, do they think they are?
CAROL: Will you please be quiet! Commander Chekov, this is completely irregular.
CHEKOV (on viewscreen): I have my orders.
DAVID: Pin him down, Mother. Who gave the order?
CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk.
DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
> Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan:
>
> DAVID: (and others) Who the hell, do they think they are?
> CAROL: Will you please be quiet! Commander Chekov, this is completely irregular.
> CHEKOV (on viewscreen): I have my orders.
> DAVID: Pin him down, Mother. Who gave the order?
> CHEKOV (on viewscreen): The order comes from Admiral James T. Kirk.
> DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
Holy squeal, batman! Completely new evidence! We need to reevaluate everything!
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The MACO don't exist in the Federation. They were an Earth military that was disbanded when the Federation was founded.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you look at organizations like Police Forces (esp. SWAT and Special Forces), Customs, Border and Coast Guards in most countries, they would also qualify as "military" per your definition. Armoured vehicles, tanks, heavy machine guns, military aircraft, armed ships and a strict military-like rank and organizational structure. Even their training and missions often reflect that of a "true" military, yet they're legally not military, but don't consider themselves civilian either.
Since we only have bits and pieces from the canon, on which everyone is able to make their own (valid) definition on weather Starfleet is military or not, mine is that they are a non-military organization,but, much like or modern day, civilian security forces, have become virtually indistiguishable from the military in purpose and appearance.
Blame the nebulous nature of our current conflicts and the militarism that's gotten into us since 9/11 for a lot of that: your average police department has next to zero actual need for an MRAP. However, police forces, border patrol etc. still aren't usually expected to fight long-term conflicts against similarly equipped opponents. Conversely, in the US you can draw one very explicit distinction, and that's that the US military is prohibited from taking part in domestic law enforcement duties (outside of law enforcement inside the military itself, obviously). That has to do with the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed following the War of Southern Aggression. (The National Guard and Coast Guard are gray areas—the National Guard technically answers to state governments rather than the President, while the Coasties are under the Department of Homeland Security.)
This is a significant difference, but you can probably it down to the nature of space in the Star Trek universe: Starfleet appears to have authority to enforce federal law, but it's in a similar fashion to organizations such as the Royal Navy being the only law available in much of the pre-WWI British Empire (again, the Age of Sail referencing).
Really, I find the debate to be mostly academic, although it makes good Canon Fodder. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Would the Navy, Army or Air FOrce still exist? I think not, because the primary purpose they were made for is dealing with war and military conflicts. You certainly still want a disaster relief and recovery service, a police, fire brigades and the like. But you wouldn't really need an army or air force for that. You would probably still have something like the NASA, because space exploration requires professionals, due to how difficult and dangerous it is.
Imagine a Star Trek world where the Federation is the only place you can find sapient beings, there is proof there was no other alien life, hostile or friendly anywhere. Would Starfleet still exist? I think yes, because you still need to explore space and it's still a frigging dangerous thing you need professionals for. You probably even still need phasers, photon torpedoes and shields because some negative space wedgies can be dealt with only that way.
And, in the other direction:
If all your country has are police officers and firemen and disaster relief workers but no soldiers, when a war breaks out, you might call upon them to defend your country.
As a CM, you have the authority to deal with it using other ways than just getting annoyed. Just saying.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
and they would not blindly follow each order.
My character Tsin'xing
" ... There is no Section 31. Sloan, in fact, works for Starfleet Intelligence. Far from being the master of a rogue agency, he is simply one of many operatives in the employ of the Federation. He's had a long career, most of which is still unknown to us. However, there is one interesting element that we do know. He was the protégé of the late Vice Admiral Fujisaki. Sloan did not take the death of his mentor well. He came to believe he was murdered by the Tal'Shiar. In his eyes, the assassination of a Starfleet admiral was stepping over the line. Isn't that the phrase? After Fujisaki's death, he was confronted with a dilemma. How could he seek vengeance without violating the Federation laws? His answer was to invent Section 31, a rogue organisation that answered to no one. ... "
...
It would have been easy to label Section 31 as the delusions of a broken man except for the fact that Into Darkness and Discovery has Section 31. Into Darkness is in an alternate reality so it could be a mere coincidence that Section 31 existed as a delusion of Sloan and as an actual organization created as a result of Nero's actions or it could have existed since before 2233.
With Discovery, it depends on if Section 31 existed during TOS or TNG, but never mentioned or if Discovery is part of a new timeline. I could easily see the Borg not invading 21st Century Earth and no Section 31 in the original timeline and the Borg invasion giving some of the survivors of the attack, the drive to protect Earth at any cost resulting in a clandestine organization preceding Section 31 in the new timeline.
[Mod Hat] I'm not willing to use my position as community moderator to simply shut down people who disagree with me; I consider that abuse of authority. I made an exception for No True Scotsmans re: DSC and KT because I found a convincing argument that they're personally insulting to people who enjoy those series (ergo they're flame bait), but outside of that I don't even want to look like I'm trying to censor opposing views.
And this is technically discussion of moderation, so that's all I'm going to say about it. /topic [/Mod Hat]
One character's opinion, and given that Koval is himself a mole for Starfleet Intelligence, I don't find that opinion a trustworthy source.
I do, however, prefer the interpretation that Section 31 isn't an organization that is supposed to exist, as much as a one-off black project that got out of hand and took on an ultranationalist ideology. That seems truer to the spirit of Star Trek and I think it makes for better commentary.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Personally, I don't count Enterprise or Into Darkness as evidence of the existence of Section 31. It is implied that Reed's former organization became Section 31 and maybe if there was a Season 5, then it might have been confirmed. However, implying something doesn't make it fact. Into Darkness is set in an alternate reality and events that happened before 2233 so it has no bearing on the Prime Universe. The only evidence that Section 31 exists in the Prime Universe is the "Welcome to Section 31" bonus scene from Discovery. Although that can change with Season 2 since I doubt we have seen the last of Empress Georgiou.
kelvin ... , the admiral was not right in the head ...
dscvry ... , the man wanted some action ...
However, we do see 2 black badges in Discovery. One worn by some guard when Burnham first boards the Discovery in her prisoner garb and the other when the 'Section 31' agent gives it to Empress Georgiou. Even if there is no Section 31 in Discovery, the guard and the human pretending to be Trill belong to the same clandestine organization or at least have access to the badges for the same clandestine organization.
Regarding the S31 side topic, it was meant to be a one-off enemy within, but it became a cornerstone of the franchise. People became uncomfortable with the idea of a 'better society' and wanted the UFP only to exist because it does the same shady stuff that everyone else does. Cynicism is what it's all about.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And I doubt that Roddenberry would have allowed Section 31 to be a thing in the idealistic future of Star Trek if he was still around. 24th Century Humans were supposed to have evolved beyond the need for clandestine organizations that does the dirty work that Starfleet doesn't want to do. I believe that the popularity of Section 31 is due to the same reason why Game of Thrones is popular, peace is boring to watch while conflict is fun to watch.