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Starfleet not a military?

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    Rodenberry was against the idea of a high-level Starfleet conspiracy, so they came up with the parasites. I don't agree with everyone being perfect and infailable, however I always liked the idea that stood true to the principles which made it strong in the first place. But new canon was more and more written with these principles being simply empty words and a bunch of fools resting on a bed of people that 'do what needs to be done' who keep things going. That's not inspiring at all.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Rodenberry was against the idea of a high-level Starfleet conspiracy, so they came up with the parasites. I don't agree with everyone being perfect and infailable, however I always liked the idea that stood true to the principles which made it strong in the first place. But new canon was more and more written with these principles being simply empty words and a bunch of fools resting on a bed of people that 'do what needs to be done' who keep things going. That's not inspiring at all.

    And in Season 7 on TNG, we had a high-level Starfleet conspiracy that developed the Phasing Cloaking Device.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    {Removed by poster, because it was typed like a month ago in response to something totally different, but this forum software sucks rocks.}
    Post edited by jonsills on
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Under the Holy Writ of St. Gene, you would never have seen DS9. There was interpersonal conflict, which he had forbidden by the time of TNG, and situations that had to be resolved by fighting because the opponents wouldn't listen to a Picard Speech. (I think that Nechayev's orders to Sisko, which spun into the famous "saints in paradise" speech, might have been a subtle shot at the Roddenberry doctrine; under that, the Maquis would have succumbed to a powerful speech from Our Heroes and come meekly back to the Federation fold.)

    Basically, that's not how evolution works, and if humans acted the way Roddenberry wanted them to, they'd have been a light snack for the Klingons and the Romulans, meriting mention in their histories only because of the war between the empires over that region of space.

    I don't see the point of your comment. Nobody has declared the original concepts to be the end-all to writing, we just stated facts. Rodenberrys decree of 'no interpersonal conflict' seems to be exaggerated though, as I was just reading the writer's bible for TNG which explicitly states that the characters are not without flaws, but usually hold true to their principles. So conflict could exist, it just should have been resolved later on because he was going for a "family" feel amongst the crew. Military conflicts should ultimately not be resolved by force, that is true, but that was part of the premise. It doesn't help to show people fantastic stories about people you just HAVE to shoot.

    Your conclusion however is false since Roddenberry had creative control over the beginning of TNG and the UFP was not "a light snack" for anyone, they prevailed through wars and conflicts time and time again. The Klingons were even supposed to have joined the UFP, although that was fortunately not mentioned again and later rejected. (It is however now a great scene of Picard mocking Wesley pig-2.gif ).

    In regards to this topic, the aforementioned writer's bible contains a sentence, bold and underlined: "Starfleet is not a military organization".​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    In regards to this topic, the aforementioned writer's bible contains a sentence, bold and underlined: "Starfleet is not a military organization".​​
    Yeah... how much of the writer's guide actually made it onto screen though? A lot of it is directly contradicted by what we do see.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
    Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
    when it's your head-canon... no.

    Direct citations from episodes are not headcanon.
    starswordc wrote: »
    url=https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonFodder]Canon Fodder[/url]. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.

    As a CM, you have the authority to deal with it using other ways than just getting annoyed. Just saying.

    As @starswordc points out that would be an abuse of power. If a mod thinks that bringing up the supposed military nature of Starfleet is on-topic then me endlessly debating that is also on-topic.
    starkaos wrote: »
    Personally, I don't count Enterprise or Into Darkness as evidence of the existence of Section 31. It is implied that Reed's former organization became Section 31 and maybe if there was a Season 5, then it might have been confirmed. However, implying something doesn't make it fact. Into Darkness is set in an alternate reality and events that happened before 2233 so it has no bearing on the Prime Universe. The only evidence that Section 31 exists in the Prime Universe is the "Welcome to Section 31" bonus scene from Discovery. Although that can change with Season 2 since I doubt we have seen the last of Empress Georgiou.

    As you well know the KT started in exactly 2233 so any concept that is older predated the timeline split.

    S31 is built into Earth Starfleet's founding charter and Earth Starfleet is the basis of the UFP's Starfleet (seriously, not a single bit of Vulcan or Andorian influence, real stupid of the ENT writers there). It's conducting officially sanctioned and funded building of massive dreadnoughts as part of Starfleet in an alternate timeline and is included in relevant chains of command by DS9.

    I don't really see why people are so dead set against the idea that S31 could exist. I mean sure we can probably all agree that committing genocide on the Founders or setting Harrison on the Klingons are not particularly nice actions, but they're no more an argument for their non-existence than Sisko's use of bio-weapons on the Marquis or Picard's S1&2 attitude of happily (and I mean happily) letting people die is evidence for Starfleet's non-existence.

    As for Roddenberry...?
    As his private brain-care specialist, Gag Halfrunt, says 'Vell, Gene's just zis guy, you know?'.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
    Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
    when it's your head-canon... no.
    Direct citations from episodes are not headcanon.
    The head-canon is the idea that quote A is more important than quote B...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • This content has been removed.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
    Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
    when it's your head-canon... no.
    Direct citations from episodes are not headcanon.
    The head-canon is the idea that quote A is more important than quote B...

    Not that's context not headcanon.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    starswordc wrote: »
    I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.
    Don't worry. I plan to keep it up because keeping things correct is better than keeping them on topic. All you'd have to do is change your wording to comply with canon and they you wouldn't have to get so annoyed.
    when it's your head-canon... no.

    Direct citations from episodes are not headcanon.
    starswordc wrote: »
    url=https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonFodder]Canon Fodder[/url]. I just get annoyed with people like @artan42 who constantly jump into unrelated topics and derail them because they can't resist the urge to "correct me" for describing Starfleet as the Federation's military.

    As a CM, you have the authority to deal with it using other ways than just getting annoyed. Just saying.

    As @starswordc points out that would be an abuse of power. If a mod thinks that bringing up the supposed military nature of Starfleet is on-topic then me endlessly debating that is also on-topic.
    starkaos wrote: »
    Personally, I don't count Enterprise or Into Darkness as evidence of the existence of Section 31. It is implied that Reed's former organization became Section 31 and maybe if there was a Season 5, then it might have been confirmed. However, implying something doesn't make it fact. Into Darkness is set in an alternate reality and events that happened before 2233 so it has no bearing on the Prime Universe. The only evidence that Section 31 exists in the Prime Universe is the "Welcome to Section 31" bonus scene from Discovery. Although that can change with Season 2 since I doubt we have seen the last of Empress Georgiou.

    As you well know the KT started in exactly 2233 so any concept that is older predated the timeline split.

    S31 is built into Earth Starfleet's founding charter and Earth Starfleet is the basis of the UFP's Starfleet (seriously, not a single bit of Vulcan or Andorian influence, real stupid of the ENT writers there). It's conducting officially sanctioned and funded building of massive dreadnoughts as part of Starfleet in an alternate timeline and is included in relevant chains of command by DS9.

    I don't really see why people are so dead set against the idea that S31 could exist. I mean sure we can probably all agree that committing genocide on the Founders or setting Harrison on the Klingons are not particularly nice actions, but they're no more an argument for their non-existence than Sisko's use of bio-weapons on the Marquis or Picard's S1&2 attitude of happily (and I mean happily) letting people die is evidence for Starfleet's non-existence.

    As for Roddenberry...?
    As his private brain-care specialist, Gag Halfrunt, says 'Vell, Gene's just zis guy, you know?'.​​

    pOint of order here, Som, Sisko used a chemical weapon, not a biological one. (Trilithium is a chemical, not a virus.)

    And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if it is Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical. What matters is the effectiveness of destruction and how much suffering it causes.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if it is Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical. What matters is the effectiveness of destruction and how much suffering it causes.
    I would argue that by the standards of the Geneva convention it would not be considered a war crime if it had been done as part of a war. As you said, "What matters is the effectiveness of destruction and how much suffering it causes." The Sisko's chosen chemical agent was a lot less deadly than VX. And required prolonged exposure to be a serious problem.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    starswordc wrote: »
    ryan218 wrote: »
    However, my first reaction to your post was laughter: it reminds me of an RN Submarine Arm joke I heard once (at the Surface Fleet's expense. There're two kinds of warship: submarines and targets.
    stopdroplol-com-6eefd6.jpg

    Yeah, I find interservice rivalries incredibly funny most of the time. There's more where that came from, here's a few of the cleaner ones:
    • Never Again Volunteer Yourself
    • Ain't Ready for Marines Yet
    • Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

    Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not Expected.

    When I was active duty Army, we referred to the National Guard as Nasty Guard or Nasty Girls.
    Coast Guard would be the Puddle Pirates. Navy is the most favorite #1 Uber for the Marines, and so on.

    Yes, Starfleet is a military. Sure, they explore, do space magic, and other ****. But they're also force projection. They're the mighty arm to impose the Federation's interests throughout the galaxy. And as the Federation is an empire, it requires such an arm to not only impose their will(including on those under the umbrella), but to survive.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    A federation is literally the opposite of an empire. But we're making TRIBBLE up to make this theory work, so go on I guess xD

    Interestingly though, the Klingon Empire in all canon actually showed little characteristics of a literal empire. STO and potentially DSC do a better job at this than canon.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
    no it isn't 'literally the opposite'

    em·pire
    [ˈemˌpī(ə)r]
    NOUN

    an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.
    "the Roman Empire"
    synonyms: kingdom · realm · domain · territory · province · commonwealth · federation · confederation · power · world power · superpower · jurisdiction · res publica

    synonym means SIMILAR to, not opposite​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    That's however false. A Empire has a centralized ruling structure with optional magistrates while a federation is composed of individual states with autonomous local governments. They are not functionally identical.

    EDIT: your list even goves "kingdom" as a synonym for empire which is impossible. A kingdom might be able to expand to an empire, but technically a kingdom cannot be an empire. It ceases to be one when it becomes the other.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • This content has been removed.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    An "empire" CAN be centrally controlled; however, one can easily speak of a "trade empire", which in our history is frequently distributed across a number of trading centers. One of them may well be the head office, but the various branch offices are usually more that mere satrapies of the center (else they wouldn't have been able to respond to changing conditions, back before electronic communications were a thing). Even the Roman Empire didn't exercise absolute control over all its provinces - that was why the regional governor of Germania was able to hire mercenary soldiers from the local tribes, for instance, or why the regional governor for Judea didn't have to send back to Rome for instructions on what to do with the various upstart "messiahs" the locals kept digging up. (The ones who tried to be the militant leaders most Jews looked for, of course, were executed as traitors to the Empire...)

    The United Federation of Planets is not an Empire, in the sense of having an absolute ruler called an Emperor; it is, however, an empire in the sociopolitical sense, where a central ruling authority passes laws that are supposed to be followed even unto the hinterlands. That's why Sisko was inspired to give his famous speech after having to put up with Admiral Nechayev, for example - she expected that the laws and regulations passed back on Earth by the Federation Council would be obeyed by the Maquis, just because they were Federation citizens. And Starfleet exists both as an organization dedicated to exploration, and as the law-enforcement and defense arm of the Federation as a whole.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    So this is just about colloquial use of a term. Okay, then I guess everything is an "empire", just like @patrickngo wrote. Because factually @jonsills the UFP is not an empire in the same sense the EU is not an empire and probably, as you intended, they are since it's just a term you apply to something expressing mostly negative connotations.

    In the actual meaning of the term it's a centralized political body spanning multiple states or cultures with expansionist attitude and strong militarism. This applies to the UFP only if you take a cynic, isolationist point of view and twist canon into something never shown to us. Not even Starfleet is overly militarised, the common populace is certainly not held in check by Starfleet and the often cited "assimilation" of worlds into the UFP remains a myth not supported by canon. On the contrary, more often than not we see willing applicants get rejected due to unresolved problems on their worlds. There isn't even such a thing as the often feared "Federation culture", we just basically never see any cultures of UFP species in the entirety of canon since we're always spending our time in Starfleet which is indeed a unified and uniformed service. But at least ENT made a little effort to show Andorians, Vulcans, Tellarites and Humans are far from uniform.

    DSC could actually establish that "Klingon" is more of a culture than a species and we get weird lizard Klingons, normal Klingons and "augment Klingons" (the way I see it, the whole Voq/Tyler thing halfway retconned the augment virus out of existence already...) are all part of a Empire with a seat of power on Qo'Nos.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • This content has been removed.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Does the Federation have an Emperor? If not then it's not an Empire.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,283 Arc User
    edited September 2018
    does the romulan star EMPIRE have an emperor? (and no, STO doesn't count) empires do not require the presence of emperors as heads of state

    (not that i actually think the federation IS an empire, but if you're going to make a point about something, make sure something in star trek canon hasn't already pre-contradicted it)​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    That's however false. A Empire has a centralized ruling structure with optional magistrates while a federation is composed of individual states with autonomous local governments. They are not functionally identical.

    EDIT: your list even goves "kingdom" as a synonym for empire which is impossible. A kingdom might be able to expand to an empire, but technically a kingdom cannot be an empire. It ceases to be one when it becomes the other.


    Let's look at your opening statement a bit here. Centralized ruling structure: Capital is...Earth, Paris, right? Big cheese in charge is Okeg, right? Everyone answers to Earth, turns their heads to Earth. Not Vulcan or the Andorian or Tellarite homeworlds so much, right? And the Federation seeks to expand their reach, their influences and interests, their territory even more. They may not conquer completely through violence, instead using diplomacy(with conditions) as their means. Putting lipstick on the pig, so to speak.

    Even the United States of America can be considered an empire. The EU is trying to become an empire, one that took a black eye with Brexit happening.

    How autonomous are the Andorians, Tellarites, Bajorans, Cardassians, Vulcans? Do they have their own militaries and navies? Or are they compelled to use Starfleet instead? Are they all brought together under one banner?
  • ichaerus1ichaerus1 Member Posts: 986 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Does the Federation have an Emperor? If not then it's not an Empire.​​

    Ford, Microsoft, EA, WWE all are considered empires, in the business sense, and they don't have emperors. Did the British Empire have an emperor? No. It had kings and queens. Still was considered an empire. Because of the reach and influence it commanded under its dominion.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    does the romulan star EMPIRE have an emperor? (and no, STO doesn't count) empires do not require the presence of emperors as heads of state

    (not that i actually think the federation IS an empire, but if you're going to make a point about something, make sure something in star trek canon hasn't already pre-contradicted it)

    It dosn't have a sitting Emperor no. Neither does the Klingon Empire. However both have the position for one in their hierarchy.
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    Ford, Microsoft, EA, WWE all are considered empires, in the business sense, and they don't have emperors.

    And... The Federation is a political entity not a business so colloquial definitions don't apply.
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    Did the British Empire have an emperor? No. It had kings and queens.
    ichaerus1 wrote: »

    Victoria was Empress of India.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    Since you called the EU an aspiring empire we're not really talking politics but just colloquial labeling. As such I'd say the federarion is a pie factory. Every ship and household equipped with a replicator? Check. Does it make pie? Check. People join you when offered pie? It's all there.

    In case you actually want to argue, the president is not an absolute ruler. The council makes decisions regarding external policies, the worlds themselves are autonomous. Canon gives us nothing to go by, half the founding members worlds we've never even seen, no word on how UFP politics work. We just have descriptions and unless you start to argue that everything said on-screen is a lie then no the federation is not an empire.
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Does the Federation have an Emperor? If not then it's not an Empire.​​
    The Klingon Empire didn't have an Emperor for an unspecified, but quite lengthy, period of time. Was it not an Empire then?
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    jonsills wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Does the Federation have an Emperor? If not then it's not an Empire.​​
    The Klingon Empire didn't have an Emperor for an unspecified, but quite lengthy, period of time. Was it not an Empire then?

    I mentioned that above. It still had the mechanisms for an Emperor even if it didn't have an incumbent.
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 36,106 Arc User
    The Oxford Dictionary definition:

    1. An extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a [b]sovereign state.[/b]

    1.1 Supreme political power over several countries when exercised by a single authority.

    So, Empire doesn't necessarily mean a political entity which has an Emperor. It can mean any Sovereign state which has supreme authority over several other states. Rome was an Empire before the Republic fell, for example.
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