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Starfleet not a military?
crimsonlena
Member Posts: 58 Arc User
in Ten Forward
I noticed in another thread some people vehemently denying starfleet is a military. My question is how is it not?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
Military grade weapons, equipment, and that whole ar-558 situation , it is steeped in Naval Tradition, Doctrine and protocol.
I mean aside rank having naval ranks, they act like how a real navy would, even just the way fleets are organized is how a military would be, I can’t imagine anyone who has served in any nations navy could say they don’t see a military in starfleets form and function.
In other words, if it looks, walks and talks like a duck, isn’t it a duck?
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It's "not a military" same way the real life Japanese Self-Defense force is "not a military", yes for all practical intents Starfleet is a military organization (granted one with a large non-military branch) however they deny being a military as political way of saying "we won't shoot first".
That's what it is a political way of "saying when we say "we come in peace" we mean it and with no string attached".
We really only hear this from a subset of Earthborn humans, especially Picard. From whom I think the most key line comes at the very end of his narrative, to Shinzon in Nemesis:
"I prefer to think of myself as an explorer."
Okay, so, the theory in a nutshell: Starfleet is a de facto military force, but the Earth-human personnel we mainly interact with, i.e. who have most of the speaking roles in the franchise, dislike thinking of it as one for largely cultural reasons: they've grown up terrified of what humanity used to be like.
Earth-humans in Star Trek love to tell us (via various alien species representing different aspects of RL-humanity) how they've grown beyond material motivations and imperialism and desire for revenge and so on and so forth, right? But then you get to the stuff that doesn't fit: the paragon of Star Trek humanity, Jean-Luc Picard, going all "Captain Ahab" on the Borg, and Jake Sisko repeating the "party line" about money WRT the baseball card he wanted to get his dad as a present (and then getting caught flat-footed when Nog pointed out the obvious flaw in the argument). Plus the Maquis, post-space humans acting very territorial indeed about "their land" (regardless of how justified they are: I actually sympathize with the Maquis in cause if not in actions but that's mostly beside the point).
Put it all together, what it tells me is that while Star Trek humanity has improved their technology in very significant and IMHO good ways (e.g. no hunger, no shortage of energy, little disease aside from whatever Kirk happens to pick up from random alien women), they haven't so much improved themselves as they are desperate to believe that they have: that they're no longer these barbarians who nuked themselves back to the Stone Age for the (to them, and probably to me as well) stupidest of reasons back in the day. For an analogy, the philosophy of globalism that spawned the UN came largely out of the post-World War II reaction to "great power politics" that had killed an estimated 3% of the world's population in six years. (Worth noting, Gene Roddenberry served in combat in the Pacific theatre, and James Doohan lost a finger on Juno Beach.)
So, the UE Starfleet (the Federation Starfleet seemingly inherited most of its structures) isn't a "military" organization, they're a "peacekeeping" and "exploration" organization. Because "militaries" (in their minds) attack and conquer and do terrible things in the name of country, but "peacekeeping" and "exploration" groups are about protecting people and expanding knowledge. That these "peacekeepers" and "explorers" are carrying around sufficient firepower to glass a planet, a procedure for which is explicitly in their book of regs (and which individual captains are evidently allowed to enact without checking up the chain of command first)? "Um... Oh, look, a protomatter emission nebula!"
Related article: https://www.npr.org/sections/monkeysee/2013/05/21/185774613/the-starfleet-divide-the-star-trek-universe-revisits-one-of-its-great-debates
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Starfleet serves as the UFPs armed service but is not a military organization. Yes that works. No it's not a politic lie. How you ask? Watch the shows, they tell you. I'm tired of this squealing dumb carousel ride.
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Effectively, if the entire international community decides that a 'defence force' isn't a military because it doesn't go on the offensive, then what makes them wrong in saying the JSDF, or the Garda, aren't militaries? The definitions of words change all the time on an historical scale (the term 'military' has changed in meaning from effectively synonymous with army to any armed force just within the past 200 years!)
So, Starfleet classifies itself as a 'defence force', because in its human eyes, it sees 'militaries' as serving both a defensive and offensive function, and as the Federation doesn't (supposedly*) project its power with military force, Starfleet doesn't fit the definition.
*Except Starfleet sent several starships to Coridan to 'show the flag' during that planet's admission into the Federation. That can definitely be interpreted as 'power projection'.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
so yeah - anything anyone in star trek - or out of it, for that matter - says for or against starfleet being a military carries about as much weight as a piece of used toilet paper - only the EVIDENCE matters, and statements are NOT admissible as evidence
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I DID offer up evidence, Starfleet follows strict Naval Traditions, Doctrines and procedures identical to not just the US Navy, but to other nations navies. Heck, even in the show, Starfleet operates pretty much exactly like any other Race's fleet and there is plenty of documented evidence, Starfleet will attack first and project power. Theres many times in both TNG, DS9 and movies about "Showing the flag" off.
How about Starfleet even operating an Military Intelligence division, seemingly separate from Federation Security and perhaps the smoking gun, Starfleet uses the JAG (Judge Advocate General) Legal System, where a Flag Officer acts as Judge during legal matters, and court martials rather then submitting to the civilian Federation based Legal system. Its also canon, if civilians had issue with Starfleet, they had to go through the Starfleet JAG's Office rather then civilian court systems.
This all leads up to Starfleet essentially being its own entity within the Federation, as any Military would. Starfleet only answers to the Fed President and the Fed Council much like the US Navy answering to the President and Congress. I do agree with the idea though, it seems a political thing humans don't call Starfleet a military, it thought it was striking myself, that throughout TNG picard talks about human evolution but in First Contact, he gets nearly fully consumed with the idea of Revenge and killing borg in obvious rage and hate. That could just be bad writing, but its canon never the less.
They also don't got buzzcuts.
They don't yell at the top of their lungs when spoken too. (thank goodness)
They don't shout "Sir!" at the beginning and end of each reply. (again thank goodness)
And with all the exploration and scientific stuff, I see a big difference.
This is true. You might also look at the interpretation I prefer for the Prime Directive, which is that it's supposed to be an anti-imperialist/anti-colonialist measure. E.g. Don't try to overthrow other governments, avoid messing with the internal workings of other governments, respect other cultures' mores and traditions, etc.
The Federation is expansionist, like any population ever. The difference is, they're not supposed to expand by military conquest, but by voluntary admission. They'll absolutely do their damnedest to convince you to join, but it's ultimately still your decision, and even afterwards they give considerable leeway in governance of internal matters.
Behold:
Neither of these is really a thing in real-life military forces, either, except in basic training or if they're getting chewed out. On the other hand, see Nog getting called to Sisko's office in "Homefront", where this exact thing happens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Beagle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Exploring_Expedition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_submarine_NR-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA
And in continuation of my earlier point, again: we mostly only hear from Earthborn humans when Starfleet insists it isn't a military, and not consistently--Jim Kirk openly referred to himself as a soldier. Would an Andorian Starfleet officer share that opinion? The Imperial Guard is a big deal back home. Would a Bajoran share that opinion? They fought fifty years of guerrilla war to force the Cardassians off their world; I doubt Kira Nerys, Sito Jaxa, or Ro Laren considered themselves anything but soldiers. How about a Trill? We don't know what their past consists of. An Efrosian? A Denobulan?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I stand corrected. I was doing a tone of research on different forms of neutrality a few years ago, and must have confused Ireland with another Armed-Neutral state.
But yeah, I think it's a case of how one defines a 'military', a distinction we see even today, with countries like Japan being allowed what many of us would call a 'military', but under the guise of a defence force, so long as it is not used in an offensive capacity. Starfleet doesn't regard itself as operating in an offensive capacity, so it doesn't classify as a military by their reasoning, which could be taken as a progression of the distinction we see today between 'militaries' and 'defence forces'.
(I would also argue that participating in a 'blue-helmet' force isn't necessarily offensive action, since UN Peacekeeping missions typically exist to prevent military encounters, but that's getting really pedantic (not to mention debatable)).
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Every navy of that period did exploration, such as the Dutch, Portuguese, and Spanish Navies (who all did as much, if not more exploration than the RN). However, it's worth noting that the navies of that age were not organised navies as we know them today (although the RN was much more organised at Cook's time).
During the Age of Discovery (approx. 1400-1700) navies tended to be loose groups of ships which were privately owned in peacetime but conscripted into the service of the sovereign in wartime (the Spanish Armada Real was an exception, largely due to the sheer funds the New World provided (and thus the naval power it demanded)). The English Royal Navy in particular (it didn't become British until the very early 1700s) was basically formed up of merchant captains who were given a commission by the Crown to attack England's enemies.
What all this meant was that while these countries' navies did do a lot of early exploration, this was largely because individual Mariners needed money from the Crown for such voyages, and the Crown wanted a cut of whatever the explorers found when they got there (I.e. First claims on new land). There was no 'organised' exploration as we'd know it. It was the 'navy' doing the exploration only in the sense that the explorer in charge had a letter from the King/Queen saying he was acting on behalf of the Crown.
Now, the RN was much more organised by Cook's time, and yes, Cook was sent by the navy to find Australia, but this was also one of the last exploratory voyages until the Antarctic voyages of the late 1800s, and most of the exploration of the New World (and the 'East Indies') had closed over a century earlier, before Pepys' reforms turned the RN into an organised military force similar to what we know today.
/historical-but-off-the-top-of-my-head-and-thus-probably-not-100%-accurate-definitely-not-academic-quality-essay
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
> Theres some good, thought provoking comments in this thread, thanks to those who actually offered ideas, then just "Its not a military, end or story."
It is simple as that, end of story. See, you didn't have a new idea with this thread. This debate goes on in this forum for at least seven years. With the same people repeating the same points over and over again. If you want more than "just that" use the search function and read the hundreds of topics if you like. If people like their fanfiction better than the actual show, have to say the dialogue in said show are lies told by the characters and the creators are delusional so be it. Make up your mind if that reasoning is good enough. I do acknowledge that Trek's 'anti-military' stance is bold for a US show given it comes from a culture with straight out worship of all things martial. But it still doesn't change the fact that even the most recent movie reinforced that Starfleet is not meant to be a military organization, despite including it in their function. That's what I mean with the duck equivalence principle displaying glaring ignorance: it shows you are from the beginning unwilling to acknowledge subtle and not-so-subtle differences as something unique, classifying a hundred species of water fowl with one term. That's ignorance.
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As we know from Beyond the Federation scrapped Earth's military upon formation and doesn't have a replacement.
As Starfleet is an organisation that happens to have a lot of weapons (you know, as anyone operating in dangerous territory does) and is organised along paramilitary lines (i.e. vauge similarities in structure and rank as a range of military forces from the last few centuries so stop complaining when they don't act like carbon copies of your particular favourite military) and I'm sure there's no multi-territory spanning, resources intensive, highly organised organisations that aren't paramilitary in some way to improve efficiency.
So you've got an organisation that's heavily armed and already organised in a paramilitary fashion hanging around in a political territory that disbanded its own military upon creation. Obviously Starfleet are going to have to form a militia and defend the Federation, who else is going to do it?
It's only a de jure military in the eyes of people who lack the imagination to picture fictional worlds and have a nasty habit of calling actual characters liars as the 'evidence' that exists in their own heads is more important that what the fictional world is actually portraying.
Real navies leave the homeworld (well nation) entirely undefended almost constantly? Pack their warships with families? Act as single units for the entirety of their existence outside of combat? I can't see that nation surviving very long.
People also see shapes in clouds and stars. It dosn't mean it's true, it just means people look for patterns.
No. It's not a military in the way that's it's not military. It only functions as one due to needing the various criteria for its actual function. If it only operated in the Sol System it wouldn't need to be so well armed. If it only operated in the Northern Hemisphere it wouldn't need to be paramilitary organised. It's the Federation's only option because it is the only one that can function well enough.
This is the single and only piece of semi-interesting argument people have ever put up to defend their space marines. However it's clear that as Star Trek is set in the future it's just a slight shift in language. Starfleet are already going along with paramilitary rankings and so on so why not crip it all. UFP Starfleet is also a carbon copy of UE Starfleet so it likely absorbed all of UES' procedures and the UES contained the MACO who were explicitly a military force (it's ambiguous if UES itself was a military or not, even more ambiguous than the UFP one) so I assume the MACO had all the standard military procedures of Earth militaries as they were an Earth military.
Also, phaser cannons are not cannons, they don't fire large stone projectiles due to the explosion of black powder. Language shifts meaning but retains the words.
Starfleet has made a grand total of one pure warship. The Dreadnought class USS Vengeance. Every single other ship it's made has been an explorer or support ship. Being able to pick a handful of military ships that were later purposed into doing non-military research is so far away from being the same thing it's almost the complete opposite.
Did he ever claim not to be?
Even though they aren't'? If Starfleet didn't do it who would? And there's a reason the word militia exists. Not everyone who fights for a nation and/or organisation is a military.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Please go and look up what "militia" means. The very fact that all Starfleet members have to complete Starfleet Academy training before fully accepted into it makes it absolutely impossible to call Starfleet a militia.
Maquis would be militia, True Way would be militia - not Starfleet.
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My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Starfleet are civilians, check. Supplement a regular military, not check (the Federations doesn't have one). In an emergency, check the only time Starfleet functions as a military is if the Federation is attacked.
Again, the UFP disbanded their militaries as of their foundation. Explicitly the MACO and likely the Andorian Imperial Guard as well. Because of this Starfleet can't supplement a military but have to function as it.
Uuum wot!? The fact that an organisation requires a minimum entry level standard makes them unable to be called to defend a entity in times of emergency?
Really? And how do you figure that? The Marquis are secessionists who are willing to fight. That makes them the military arm of whatever government the Marquis have.
The True Way are a political entity that wants to remove the current Federation friendly government of Cardassia.
Militia dosn't mean 'military force of something tunebreaker doesn't consider a legitimate political entity'.
Unless you have conscription then a military is a force of people who have chosen to fight for their political entity. The Marquis and the True Way have chosen to fight against the Cardassians and Federation separate from the civilians (Non-Cardassian occupants of the Neutral Zone or Cardassians respectively).
A militia is when you get civilians supplementing the military (though technically conscription could form militias inside the
volunteer military it just isn't really thought of in that way.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Citation needed.
And Starfleet is not raised from anywhere only in times of emergency - it exists constantly. Hence, it can't be called a militia. "But they only fight when they have to" - yeah, that's what militaries in the current times do too - no one is at war 24/7, throughout hundreds of years, yet they are still militaries. And the "civil population" means either people who haven't had any military training or have passed it, but are currently not in service. Again, members of Starfleet are seen to be constantly in service.
But whatever, you seem to lack a basic comprehension in order to have a proper conversation with you.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
This is correct. However, that doesn't mean Starfleet is designated as "military". Emergency service personnel are also non-civilians and can even be combatants. A service with a special status that serves as the latter if need be is really not hard to imagine.
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On one side you have mountains of evidence that support the argument that Starfleet is the Federation's military. On the other you have mere words stating that Starfleet is not the military and suggesting it is somehow better without that label, a notion i personally find offensive to anyone who has or will serve in an IRL military. There's literally nothing outside of dialog that you can point to to support your claim, and there's even dialog that supports Starfleet being military in TWoK, a movie universally agreed to be one of the best Trek movies ever made. In that movie David explicitly refers to Starfleet as 'the military'.
> The Defiant is a warship, i think that solves the whole conundrum, doesn't it?
Actually what really solves it is that the Defiant is OFFICIALLY designated an "escort vessel", apparently because "frigate" or "corvette" or "light destroyer" (any of which describes its design role better than merely "warship") are too militaristic. This goes back to my notion that it's just a political distinction insisted on by upper class Earthers.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I personally find TWoK overrated.
I have identified the problem
I'd like to generally honestly ask: Is it the feeling of someone stepping on your toes the reason for more people in this argument to argue the way they do?
Starfleet has frigates. The USS New Orleans is one. It still doesn't make a military that they use certain designations, because even though they do so it stands the written word that they simply aren't. They do these things, but they aren't.
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