I'm glad it's 3/5. I'm getting tired of everything having 5/3. Even freaking 'normal' cruisers are getting 5/3 instead of 4/4.
I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
I'm glad it's 3/5. I'm getting tired of everything having 5/3. Even freaking 'normal' cruisers are getting 5/3 instead of 4/4.
I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
5/3 can be devastating on a cruiser.
If done right, you don't need massive turn rate to keep cannons on target. For example, the highest DPS ship I currently have is a Kelvin Dread (Vengeance) running cannons in the front and turrets in the aft. It works fantastic.. chews things up. The extra front mounted hard point combined with it's fantastic intel seating really makes the ship shine over any other cruiser for a front facing build. Even better then the mighty Scimitar. I use the Withering Barrage trait to keep CSV up at near 100% which gives it a 90' front firing arc. It's actually pretty easy to fly.
Honest truth here.. I can't play cannons on an escort. I just can't.. I can't stay alive.. I am just completely terrible. I admit it full on.. you give me a front facing build in a light ship and I crumble like a house of cards. In a big cruiser though like the Vengeance, it's such a durable ship that it's forgiving of my piloting mistakes. The only quick ship I can pull off with cannons is the Morrigu because that ship can tank better then most cruisers (seriously, it's almost invincible.)
I also have one ship that started off as a joke.. it's a build that shouldn't work, on paper it's terrible.. but it works great. I am running Dual Cannons.. on a Jupiter. Yeah..the big, slow pig of a Jupiter.. and it's.. fantastic. Pull everything in with a Gravity Well 3, unleash a scatter volley from a parked position and when my shields start to drop.. improved tachyon beam. It's a blast. I would love if the ship had more front hard points.. but I get it.. it's a carrier and I am using it in a 'non standard' way.
Honestly, if the Vorgon ship had 2 hangar bays, I would love it. 3 front cannons, 5 turrets and 2 pet hangars.. sure.. that would be fun. I would just park back about 5km from the swarm and let my pets go while I unleash scatter volley after scatter volley. I guess you could do something like that with the ship as it is now.. but again.. it would still perform better with a standard 4/4. A ship with 3 front weapons and only one hangar bay.. no.. just.. no.
It would be different if I was trading that hard point placement for a 2nd hangar bay, but as it is.. it feels like trading it for absolutely nothing.
I'm glad it's 3/5. I'm getting tired of everything having 5/3. Even freaking 'normal' cruisers are getting 5/3 instead of 4/4.
I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
5/3 can be devastating on a cruiser.
If done right, you don't need massive turn rate to keep cannons on target. For example, the highest DPS ship I currently have is a Kelvin Dread (Vengeance) running cannons in the front and turrets in the aft. It works fantastic.. chews things up. The extra front mounted hard point combined with it's fantastic intel seating really makes the ship shine over any other cruiser for a front facing build. Even better then the mighty Scimitar. I use the Withering Barrage trait to keep CSV up at near 100% which gives it a 90' front firing arc. It's actually pretty easy to fly.
Honest truth here.. I can't play cannons on an escort. I just can't.. I can't stay alive.. I am just completely terrible. I admit it full on.. you give me a front facing build in a light ship and I crumble like a house of cards. In a big cruiser though like the Vengeance, it's such a durable ship that it's forgiving of my piloting mistakes. The only quick ship I can pull off with cannons is the Morrigu because that ship can tank better then most cruisers (seriously, it's almost invincible.)
I also have one ship that started off as a joke.. it's a build that shouldn't work, on paper it's terrible.. but it works great. I am running Dual Cannons.. on a Jupiter. Yeah..the big, slow pig of a Jupiter.. and it's.. fantastic. Pull everything in with a Gravity Well 3, unleash a scatter volley from a parked position and when my shields start to drop.. improved tachyon beam. It's a blast. I would love if the ship had more front hard points.. but I get it.. it's a carrier and I am using it in a 'non standard' way.
Honestly, if the Vorgon ship had 2 hangar bays, I would love it. 3 front cannons, 5 turrets and 2 pet hangars.. sure.. that would be fun. I would just park back about 5km from the swarm and let my pets go while I unleash scatter volley after scatter volley. I guess you could do something like that with the ship as it is now.. but again.. it would still perform better with a standard 4/4. A ship with 3 front weapons and only one hangar bay.. no.. just.. no.
It would be different if I was trading that hard point placement for a 2nd hangar bay, but as it is.. it feels like trading it for absolutely nothing.
Hehe, I love it when ppl's experiences and playstyles can be so different. Me, I can't fly a Cruiser like an Escort. I just can't. I am just completely terrible. I admit it full on. I keep trying, then angrily toss the layout aside, realize I'm fighting windmills. And, oddly enough, my survivability in Escorts is much better than in Cruisers. Even in the lowly T5U bugship, with DHC's, I stay alive much better than in the big, bad warship.
Your different experience just goes to show there's hope here: just because I don't fully know how to make a fine 3/5 mine boat, doesn't mean someone else won't.
“3/5 Dread is an interesting concept, and easy to kit. I'm gonna be throw some Resonating Tets on front with a torp (not decided which yet), 1 Resonating Tet, 2 Omni Tet's, Torp and KCB on Aft. Thought about trying 2 Tet Turrets and 1 Omni Tet as something different, providing I can get decent cooldown on CRF/CSV. Plenty of Tet Weapon sets to try in-game thankfully.”
The thing is though if you use omni or turrets in the rear you are not making use of the 3/5 concept you are working around the limitation. For example the build you mentioned would function identical on a 5/3 or 4/4/ ship.
The problem is not coming up with something that works. The problem it coming up with something that makes use of and benefits from 3/5
“If you can parse at least 10k in a PUG run... you're doing something right and can do most Advanced queues just fine. Its when you start gunning for Elite that you might want to bump it up closer to 30k.”
Assuming we are talking about the queues without a long pause in combat like ISA then that was true years ago but not today. If you are only getting 10k at level 65 you are doing something very wrong. These days an Engineer or Sci captain in a cruiser without weapons and without bridge officer powers on a bare ship gets 10k just from captain skills. If you are using a few weapons and a few bridge powers even casually you should be well over 10k. In my last queue I run as an Engineer the captain skill just by itself did 17k and that’s upboosted completely independent of the ship and equipment.
If you are only doing 10k in ISA you don’t have enough DPS to kill the new higher level NPC’s with extra hit points within the 15min time limit.
It’s not Elitism its maths and the minimum level you need to achieve the objectives within the time limits.
EDIT: To put it another way the ViL expansion has increased the base line and increase the minimum amount needed to do ISA and advanced queues.
People still using the 10k rule need to realize that rule no longer applies.
The 10k threshold was set prior to Delta Rising. It was set at a time when T5 fleet was the best of the best. There was no T5U, there was certainly no T6. There were no specialist stations, there were no starship traits, it was under the old skill system.. that rule absolutely does not apply anymore. That 10k bar is obsolete and has been for years.
To those saying they don't parse but only run about 10k, no.. you don't. Pets by themselves parse more then that in ISA these days. You can take a ship, launch your fighters.. even 1 hangar and never fire a shot and parse at least 10k doing nothing but healing yourself. If you're using any type of abilities at all, you are breaking this barrier and without chasing DPS at all, you're probably closer to 20-25k and don't even realize it.
No one is being 'elite' or telling you that you suck. You don't, you are just doing far more then you think you are. Being totally honest, 10k is such a low bar right now that the only way you could go that low would be to limit yourself intentionally. You're all doing a lot more damage then you think you are. If you want to play 'your way' without chasing DPS.. then that's fine. No one has a problem with that, the DPS crowd does not have a problem with that.. no one has a problem with that. DPS chasers are doing it for their own fun, it's not a judgment against anyone else, it never has been.
Everyone can do what they want, play how they want.. it's fine. If you're being effective and having fun, then no one has any problem with anything you're doing. The 10k bar is now closer to 20-25k for the minimum and anyone that's using any type of logic at all in their builds is easily hitting it. 20k is effortless, if you're contributing.. you're breaking the 'barrier.'
This honestly isn't even an issue, we should stop making it one. You're all doing just fine and no one has any problem with anything you're doing. The only thing that's changed is that the numbers have inflated with power creep. If you were fine then, you're fine now.
It's not an issue. If you're running 5/3, 4/4, or even this crazy 3/5 you can still contribute and still complete content. The issue.. again.. is that there is no benefit to the 3/5 layout over any other layout. Unless they introduce some new item or mechanic that takes advantage of this layout then it's silly at best, sub optimal at worst. You can still complete content just fine, you can just do it better and easier using any other ship. That is the problem here, not DPS numbers.
It's not an issue. If you're running 5/3, 4/4, or even this crazy 3/5 you can still contribute and still complete content. The issue.. again.. is that there is no benefit to the 3/5 layout over any other layout. Unless they introduce some new item or mechanic that takes advantage of this layout then it's silly at best, sub optimal at worst. You can still complete content just fine, you can just do it better and easier using any other ship. That is the problem here, not DPS numbers.
This is also what I am keeping in mind. We're just now barely a month into the season. With how things went with this whole Hur'q thing, I'm expecting a fleet holding on about mid-season. Plus, another FE or two is possible. Home gives a look at potential weaponry to come out.
With the introduction of this ship now, with the minimal amount of gear we have for such a setup. Looking forward at what has yet to come, there is a lot of potential. Which is where people are going, "It sucks." They're wanting it right now, and not even bothering to think of what is ahead. It pretty much the standard lack of instant gratification, means instant dislike, even hatred. Mostly just lots of complaints.
With the introduction of this ship now, with the minimal amount of gear we have for such a setup. Looking forward at what has yet to come, there is a lot of potential. Which is where people are going, "It sucks." They're wanting it right now, and not even bothering to think of what is ahead. It pretty much the standard lack of instant gratification, means instant dislike, even hatred. Mostly just lots of complaints.
That is pretty much the opposite of what is happening. We have all acknowledged that something new could possibly be on the horizon. Most of us who are not thrilled with this ship, myself included, have advocated doing the event anyway because you never know what will be great tomorrow.
The issue is that as the game sits right now, this ship is a dud. Those of us that have given our reasons for not liking it have had our constructive criticism and concerns labeled in an insulting fashion similar to what you just did (not saying you did it on purpose.) People are allowed to have differing views and trying to put a label on them or attacking them personally instead of actually addressing the issue is something that should stop.
Our opinions are based on the game structure as it sits today and we have valid reasons for the way we feel. This forum is intended for discussion and that's what we're doing.. discussing.
With the introduction of this ship now, with the minimal amount of gear we have for such a setup. Looking forward at what has yet to come, there is a lot of potential. Which is where people are going, "It sucks." They're wanting it right now, and not even bothering to think of what is ahead. It pretty much the standard lack of instant gratification, means instant dislike, even hatred. Mostly just lots of complaints.
That is pretty much the opposite of what is happening. We have all acknowledged that something new could possibly be on the horizon. Most of us who are not thrilled with this ship, myself included, have advocated doing the event anyway because you never know what will be great tomorrow.
The issue is that as the game sits right now, this ship is a dud. Those of us that have given our reasons for not liking it have had our constructive criticism and concerns labeled in an insulting fashion similar to what you just did (not saying you did it on purpose.) People are allowed to have differing views and trying to put a label on them or attacking them personally instead of actually addressing the issue is something that should stop.
Our opinions are based on the game structure as it sits today and we have valid reasons for the way we feel. This forum is intended for discussion and that's what we're doing.. discussing.
Yeah, I was writing that while waiting for some asprin to kick in and kill a headache. So I could have worded it better.
As you said, looking at it now, yeah, it's not the best. But, it's not a complete dud. Sure, as the game sits now, this will be subpar, nowhere near optimal. Though it is viable. I mean we can all agree that currently, it's not going to be super high DPS boat. Looking at it right now, given it hull and boff seating, one has to consider the possibility of this being more of tanker/support craft. Which one can currently build for. Because, we can all admit, with the Gamma BZ and the Swarm, the number of people getting blown up is on the rise. Which, a tanker can help alleviate. I know, not the dps craze as normal, I'm mentioning a tank here after all. Just emphasizing that there is more than one thing you can do with a ship, you can hunt me down and lynch me later for stepping away from the DPS boats with this.
That's how I'm looking at. I'm looking it from all sides, not just from the DPS boat side of it. There is more to the game than that. This is one ship, where you have to step outside of the DPS boat, and consider the other avenues of approach. Because I read something on this, and if I remember correctly, it has the third highest amount of health for this type of ship.
With the introduction of this ship now, with the minimal amount of gear we have for such a setup. Looking forward at what has yet to come, there is a lot of potential. Which is where people are going, "It sucks." They're wanting it right now, and not even bothering to think of what is ahead. It pretty much the standard lack of instant gratification, means instant dislike, even hatred. Mostly just lots of complaints.
I think you might be a mite unfair here. In fact, I think ere the opposite is true: Cryptic, driven by a typical marketing impulse to pretend to instantly gratify its customers, just releases a ship quickly, with a not-even-hinted-to promise of 'more being on the horizon.' This all against the backdrop of veteran players knowing full-well, that once Cryptic has released something, they won't go back and change it (the odd bug notwithstanding). So, I'm not surprised some ppl here -- me included -- are scratching their heads a bit, politely, when looking at this ship, seeing no obvious way to make it truly viable with its current boff layout. Maybe those Science Mine abilities I suggested earlier are 'on the horizon,' but, if not...
The thing is though if you use omni or turrets in the rear you are not making use of the 3/5 concept you are working around the limitation. For example the build you mentioned would function identical on a 5/3 or 4/4/ ship.
The problem is not coming up with something that works. The problem it coming up with something that makes use of and benefits from 3/5
That's because there ISN'T any. There are no real great options for rear-slot-only weapons. Everything you can do with a rear slot, you can do better in a front slot, whereas not everything in a front slot can be done in a rear slot at all. There's only one uniquely rear-slot weapon: Mines...and they are terrible, and will pretty much always be terrible, because they are a conceptually flawed weapon.
Why? Because there's only two things you can do with mines: Treat them as extremely short range, extremely slow, targetable torpedoes that you can't control with an extremely long activation time, or treat them as bombs. Neither of these involves actually using mines as MINES. Just as slapping turrets into rear slots is a workaround for the fact that rear slots are inferior without actually utilizing the concept of a rear slot, using mines as clumsy missiles or bombs is working around the fact that mines are a useless concept.
And since this is the ONLY option for rear-slot-specific weaponry, and it is a fail at the most basic level, the 3/5 layout is similarly a total negative that goes nowhere.
And if rear cannons DID exist, all we'd get is a 5/3 that is limited to 25% speed because it is really a 3/5 flown backwards. Which is, again, a workaround.
I think the main problem with mines, isn't their damage. It's their Chase range, which is 3.5km. Now add to this tethered mines that you can drag around, makes them delivery bombs. Little more that a pop-n-drop, or satchel charge, a Combat Engineer might use. Other than one set of tethered mines, which are in the lobi store. All other mines are moored, i.e. set and forget. These then become limpet, or magnentic, mines when a enemy passes within the chase range.
Now, if we had other mines, namely drifting, remote controlled, or mobile mines(torpedo delivered to target area), we would see them having a bit more effectiveness. We'd also see a bit more effectiveness, if they increased the chase range. Mines cover a wide area, 3.5km in space, in not a very wide area. These should cover a good 10km, the same range as every other ship weapon. And yes, a speed increase on the chase as well. The propulsion systems in Star Trek would allow for it.
So on the fundamental level the mines themselves are not flawed. It's more that they're applying Naval Mines to space. Which is understandable, mines are not easy to understand. You might think they are. But, I was a Combat Engineer in the Army. It was my job to set up and clear mine fields. And we don't have much in the way of crawler mines now. But, these are pretty spot on for an anti-personnel mine. Their detonation radius, or kill range, is right at 5-15 meter. We do have anti-tank mines as well. These you can find on Kobali, and generally come with a 35 meter kill range. They're just overly large. With current explosives, a 35 meter kill range land mine, weighs 30 pounds, 25 pounds of high explosives and a 5 pound casing, and would be about the size of a scanner/fax/printer you use at home. I digress here, back on to what i was saying,
With the systems inherent to Star Trek, there should be a wide variety of mines. Not just the pop-n-drops we have. Using the crawler mine as example, mobile space mines are not that far fetched. As a matter of fact, given that it is space, I'd say mines would be quiet mobile, in order to cover a larger area. So the mines themselves aren't flawed. Just their utilization is.
omi's w/cutting beam in front, beam arrays in rear. maybe a torp at rear for torp spread.
can't really do a cannon build unless you go all turrets. all rep turrets & the heavy turrets from mission rewards I guess, include 1 crafted turret. /shrug
The thing is though if you use omni or turrets in the rear you are not making use of the 3/5 concept you are working around the limitation. For example the build you mentioned would function identical on a 5/3 or 4/4/ ship.
The problem is not coming up with something that works. The problem it coming up with something that makes use of and benefits from 3/5
That's because there ISN'T any. There are no real great options for rear-slot-only weapons. Everything you can do with a rear slot, you can do better in a front slot, whereas not everything in a front slot can be done in a rear slot at all. There's only one uniquely rear-slot weapon: Mines...and they are terrible, and will pretty much always be terrible, because they are a conceptually flawed weapon.
Why? Because there's only two things you can do with mines: Treat them as extremely short range, extremely slow, targetable torpedoes that you can't control with an extremely long activation time, or treat them as bombs. Neither of these involves actually using mines as MINES. Just as slapping turrets into rear slots is a workaround for the fact that rear slots are inferior without actually utilizing the concept of a rear slot, using mines as clumsy missiles or bombs is working around the fact that mines are a useless concept.
And since this is the ONLY option for rear-slot-specific weaponry, and it is a fail at the most basic level, the 3/5 layout is similarly a total negative that goes nowhere.
And if rear cannons DID exist, all we'd get is a 5/3 that is limited to 25% speed because it is really a 3/5 flown backwards. Which is, again, a workaround.
I think the main problem with mines, isn't their damage. It's their Chase range, which is 3.5km. Now add to this tethered mines that you can drag around, makes them delivery bombs. Little more that a pop-n-drop, or satchel charge, a Combat Engineer might use. Other than one set of tethered mines, which are in the lobi store. All other mines are moored, i.e. set and forget. These then become limpet, or magnentic, mines when a enemy passes within the chase range.
There is nothing wrong with chase range. You can increase general mines up to 7km range, photon mines futher and with Master of the mines for limited times frame 15km+ range. There is also kinetic Magnet as another option.
As for Tethered Quantum mines I found those terrible they do half the damage of normal mines. I wouldn’t recommend anyone use them. I found swapping from Tethered Quantum mines to basic normal Quantum mines doubled my damage output. They really need a balance pass.
I kind of like the idea. Head toward target, hit it with a few light turrets or omnis, activate all your abilities and debuffs, then do a 180 and blast em. Might be a viable layout and at least it’s something different.
The thing is though if you use omni or turrets in the rear you are not making use of the 3/5 concept you are working around the limitation. For example the build you mentioned would function identical on a 5/3 or 4/4/ ship.
The problem is not coming up with something that works. The problem it coming up with something that makes use of and benefits from 3/5
That's because there ISN'T any. There are no real great options for rear-slot-only weapons. Everything you can do with a rear slot, you can do better in a front slot, whereas not everything in a front slot can be done in a rear slot at all. There's only one uniquely rear-slot weapon: Mines...and they are terrible, and will pretty much always be terrible, because they are a conceptually flawed weapon.
Why? Because there's only two things you can do with mines: Treat them as extremely short range, extremely slow, targetable torpedoes that you can't control with an extremely long activation time, or treat them as bombs. Neither of these involves actually using mines as MINES. Just as slapping turrets into rear slots is a workaround for the fact that rear slots are inferior without actually utilizing the concept of a rear slot, using mines as clumsy missiles or bombs is working around the fact that mines are a useless concept.
And since this is the ONLY option for rear-slot-specific weaponry, and it is a fail at the most basic level, the 3/5 layout is similarly a total negative that goes nowhere.
And if rear cannons DID exist, all we'd get is a 5/3 that is limited to 25% speed because it is really a 3/5 flown backwards. Which is, again, a workaround.
I think the main problem with mines, isn't their damage. It's their Chase range, which is 3.5km. Now add to this tethered mines that you can drag around, makes them delivery bombs. Little more that a pop-n-drop, or satchel charge, a Combat Engineer might use. Other than one set of tethered mines, which are in the lobi store. All other mines are moored, i.e. set and forget. These then become limpet, or magnentic, mines when a enemy passes within the chase range.
There is nothing wrong with chase range. You can increase general mines up to 7km range, photon mines futher and with Master of the mines for limited times frame 15km+ range. There is also kinetic Magnet as another option.
As for Tethered Quantum mines I found those terrible they do half the damage of normal mines. I wouldn’t recommend anyone use them. I found swapping from Tethered Quantum mines to basic normal Quantum mines doubled my damage output. They really need a balance pass.
Yeah I didn't say the tethered ones were any good. Just pointing out we had them. For me a tethered mine would be more of a trait or console, not the mine itself. So that it would be an option for all mines. I'd almost say a boff abitliy, with say a 30 second cooldown, maybe a one minute cd.
The tethered mine doing less damage always bothered me. As someone that has been trained in the use of explosives, I can say, attaching a tow string to an explosive device, does not lower it explosive potential. So that is one mistake they did make with the tethered mines.
And, with what I'm seeing in this thread, and you mentioning it. There are people looking at mines in conjunction with this ship. Which, sort of accomplishes that damage pass. I expect to see more than a few posts about it, when people start toying around with it.
And like most here, I'm not expecting this to be some super ship. Given the setup, and the lack of available rear weaponry. So, I'm expecting subpar with it, starting out. But, keeping a bit of hope, we may get some improvements out of it.
As for Tethered Quantum mines I found those terrible they do half the damage of normal mines. I wouldn’t recommend anyone use them. I found swapping from Tethered Quantum mines to basic normal Quantum mines doubled my damage output. They really need a balance pass.
Additionally, they only get half the mines that Dispersal Patterns give to other mines, further reducing their damage. There is one DOff that gives you a 20% chance to spawn one additional Tethered Mine when you activate a Dispersal Pattern! That totally makes up for the discrepancy... right?
I don't know how this would work but if I had to outfit that ship this is what I'd do. I don't think it would work very well but oh well.
The idea was to reduce weapon power use to allow for more shield, engine, and aux power. Tractor mines to lock something down along with web mines while the clusters do their thing. Front arc could spam plasma torpedoes like a machine gun.
If you're going for an all-turret build, you might as well use turrets with PEN.
I will say that that the Vorgon pets only use beams, so using Coordinating Strike would be out of the question on a cannon/turret build.
The ship is worth getting for the A.S.S. Card if nothing else. Broadside, at the moment, seems to be the best build for this ship. It would be interesting to see if someone could pull off a mine build off this ship.
The ship is worth getting for the A.S.S. Card if nothing else. Broadside, at the moment, seems to be the best build for this ship. It would be interesting to see if someone could pull off a mine build off this ship.
A mine build could be made to work but it would be below average at best. Far below the top mine ships. It doesn't really offer anything useful for a mine build.
Wow where did the discussion of the ridiculous 3front 5aft weapons ship go? Yeah i m one of the guys who think a 3/5 set up with 5 aft weapons is nonsense. I guess i start practicing flying a ship backwards now...
I wanted the carrier! Not some Babylon 5 White Knight reject design!
Well, you got half of what you wanted since the ship looks nothing like anything from Babylon 5.
On topic, has to be a type-o.. a 3/5 layout would be awful.
Overall, I honestly don't care.. it's nothing but a free admiralty card to me either way.
Actually it would not be bad, it is basically a 3/3 hybrid carrier arrangement with two extra hardpoints for mines or turrets/omnis reminiscent of the phalanx turrets on present day ships. It is an interesting sounding change of pace from the usual forward oriented cannon based ships.
Problem. You CAN'T mount that many Omnis. At best we can mount 2. 3 if we count the Omega Rep Kinetic Cutting Beam.
The changeling-gun (which supposedly morphs into a turret or omnibeam depending on what BOFF power you use) from the new episode appears to mount alongside a crafted omni & reward omni. Of course, then you're stuck with polarons. And killing millions of Hurq running Home a couple more times to complete the set.
(I haven't actually test-fired the thing yet, sooo.....)
The changeling gun has a problem now, while it would slot alongside another mission omni at first it no longer does so. However, there still is no restriction on turrets so it is still possible to use as many weapon slots as you want for omnidirectional weapons as long as no more than two of them are normal omnibeam.
> @ruinthefun said: > echatty wrote: » > > Personally, I see no reason to go into the hundreds of thousands in the DPS chase. That is simply way overkill when 10k gets the job done nicely. > > > > This isn't true at all. 10K is functionally indistinguishable from AFK. Just try to do even ISA with only 10K. You will fail. Just by the numbers alone, with somewhere around 50M HP that have to be blasted off within 15 minutes, you're looking at a minimum of 35K. Otherwise you may as well be AFK, since you're entirely reliant on someone else to carry you through it. And that's easymode content. You just won't cut it endgame that way. Something like HSE pushes into the range of 200K+ needed.
Thus, 35k is an exaggeration, and 10k may not be a perfectly equal share, but it's not far off. 35k might be more of a comfort issue, but it is not a completion issue.
Actually it would not be bad, it is basically a 3/3 hybrid carrier arrangement with two extra hardpoints for mines or turrets/omnis reminiscent of the phalanx turrets on present day ships. It is an interesting sounding change of pace from the usual forward oriented cannon based ships.
You conveniently left out the fact that 3/3 ships have 2 hangar bays.. this has one.
> @meimeitoo said: > dracounguis wrote: » > > I'm glad it's 3/5. I'm getting tired of everything having 5/3. Even freaking 'normal' cruisers are getting 5/3 instead of 4/4. > > > > > > I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
5/3 has a small advantage on approach, 3/5 has a small advantage on retreat. Problem Solved
Both are functionally identical on broadside, and 3/5 means you're not as weak turning away when you need to pull back for healing. Just slot a rank 1 copy of BO or Target Subsystems to be used when something is in your aft or when you turn to expose different shield facings.
Comments
I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
5/3 can be devastating on a cruiser.
If done right, you don't need massive turn rate to keep cannons on target. For example, the highest DPS ship I currently have is a Kelvin Dread (Vengeance) running cannons in the front and turrets in the aft. It works fantastic.. chews things up. The extra front mounted hard point combined with it's fantastic intel seating really makes the ship shine over any other cruiser for a front facing build. Even better then the mighty Scimitar. I use the Withering Barrage trait to keep CSV up at near 100% which gives it a 90' front firing arc. It's actually pretty easy to fly.
Honest truth here.. I can't play cannons on an escort. I just can't.. I can't stay alive.. I am just completely terrible. I admit it full on.. you give me a front facing build in a light ship and I crumble like a house of cards. In a big cruiser though like the Vengeance, it's such a durable ship that it's forgiving of my piloting mistakes. The only quick ship I can pull off with cannons is the Morrigu because that ship can tank better then most cruisers (seriously, it's almost invincible.)
I also have one ship that started off as a joke.. it's a build that shouldn't work, on paper it's terrible.. but it works great. I am running Dual Cannons.. on a Jupiter. Yeah..the big, slow pig of a Jupiter.. and it's.. fantastic. Pull everything in with a Gravity Well 3, unleash a scatter volley from a parked position and when my shields start to drop.. improved tachyon beam. It's a blast. I would love if the ship had more front hard points.. but I get it.. it's a carrier and I am using it in a 'non standard' way.
Honestly, if the Vorgon ship had 2 hangar bays, I would love it. 3 front cannons, 5 turrets and 2 pet hangars.. sure.. that would be fun. I would just park back about 5km from the swarm and let my pets go while I unleash scatter volley after scatter volley. I guess you could do something like that with the ship as it is now.. but again.. it would still perform better with a standard 4/4. A ship with 3 front weapons and only one hangar bay.. no.. just.. no.
It would be different if I was trading that hard point placement for a 2nd hangar bay, but as it is.. it feels like trading it for absolutely nothing.
Hehe, I love it when ppl's experiences and playstyles can be so different.
Your different experience just goes to show there's hope here: just because I don't fully know how to make a fine 3/5 mine boat, doesn't mean someone else won't.
The problem is not coming up with something that works. The problem it coming up with something that makes use of and benefits from 3/5
Assuming we are talking about the queues without a long pause in combat like ISA then that was true years ago but not today. If you are only getting 10k at level 65 you are doing something very wrong. These days an Engineer or Sci captain in a cruiser without weapons and without bridge officer powers on a bare ship gets 10k just from captain skills. If you are using a few weapons and a few bridge powers even casually you should be well over 10k. In my last queue I run as an Engineer the captain skill just by itself did 17k and that’s upboosted completely independent of the ship and equipment.
If you are only doing 10k in ISA you don’t have enough DPS to kill the new higher level NPC’s with extra hit points within the 15min time limit.
It’s not Elitism its maths and the minimum level you need to achieve the objectives within the time limits.
EDIT: To put it another way the ViL expansion has increased the base line and increase the minimum amount needed to do ISA and advanced queues.
The 10k threshold was set prior to Delta Rising. It was set at a time when T5 fleet was the best of the best. There was no T5U, there was certainly no T6. There were no specialist stations, there were no starship traits, it was under the old skill system.. that rule absolutely does not apply anymore. That 10k bar is obsolete and has been for years.
To those saying they don't parse but only run about 10k, no.. you don't. Pets by themselves parse more then that in ISA these days. You can take a ship, launch your fighters.. even 1 hangar and never fire a shot and parse at least 10k doing nothing but healing yourself. If you're using any type of abilities at all, you are breaking this barrier and without chasing DPS at all, you're probably closer to 20-25k and don't even realize it.
No one is being 'elite' or telling you that you suck. You don't, you are just doing far more then you think you are. Being totally honest, 10k is such a low bar right now that the only way you could go that low would be to limit yourself intentionally. You're all doing a lot more damage then you think you are. If you want to play 'your way' without chasing DPS.. then that's fine. No one has a problem with that, the DPS crowd does not have a problem with that.. no one has a problem with that. DPS chasers are doing it for their own fun, it's not a judgment against anyone else, it never has been.
Everyone can do what they want, play how they want.. it's fine. If you're being effective and having fun, then no one has any problem with anything you're doing. The 10k bar is now closer to 20-25k for the minimum and anyone that's using any type of logic at all in their builds is easily hitting it. 20k is effortless, if you're contributing.. you're breaking the 'barrier.'
This honestly isn't even an issue, we should stop making it one. You're all doing just fine and no one has any problem with anything you're doing. The only thing that's changed is that the numbers have inflated with power creep. If you were fine then, you're fine now.
It's not an issue. If you're running 5/3, 4/4, or even this crazy 3/5 you can still contribute and still complete content. The issue.. again.. is that there is no benefit to the 3/5 layout over any other layout. Unless they introduce some new item or mechanic that takes advantage of this layout then it's silly at best, sub optimal at worst. You can still complete content just fine, you can just do it better and easier using any other ship. That is the problem here, not DPS numbers.
Don't see that this would make it actually better, but at least more options to try.
I can already imagine nice ship names.
U.S.S. Glorious Retreat
U.S.S. Runaway
I.K.S. Federation Tactics
This is also what I am keeping in mind. We're just now barely a month into the season. With how things went with this whole Hur'q thing, I'm expecting a fleet holding on about mid-season. Plus, another FE or two is possible. Home gives a look at potential weaponry to come out.
With the introduction of this ship now, with the minimal amount of gear we have for such a setup. Looking forward at what has yet to come, there is a lot of potential. Which is where people are going, "It sucks." They're wanting it right now, and not even bothering to think of what is ahead. It pretty much the standard lack of instant gratification, means instant dislike, even hatred. Mostly just lots of complaints.
Sounds like my Jem'hadar.
First Pay'Me, aka Wallet Warrior in the D.V. Cash Shop, or currently the D.V. Cash Register
That is pretty much the opposite of what is happening. We have all acknowledged that something new could possibly be on the horizon. Most of us who are not thrilled with this ship, myself included, have advocated doing the event anyway because you never know what will be great tomorrow.
The issue is that as the game sits right now, this ship is a dud. Those of us that have given our reasons for not liking it have had our constructive criticism and concerns labeled in an insulting fashion similar to what you just did (not saying you did it on purpose.) People are allowed to have differing views and trying to put a label on them or attacking them personally instead of actually addressing the issue is something that should stop.
Our opinions are based on the game structure as it sits today and we have valid reasons for the way we feel. This forum is intended for discussion and that's what we're doing.. discussing.
Don't forget Picard's addition to that from First Contact
I.K.S. or better U.S.S. Pull Back or We Pull Back
Yeah, I was writing that while waiting for some asprin to kick in and kill a headache. So I could have worded it better.
As you said, looking at it now, yeah, it's not the best. But, it's not a complete dud. Sure, as the game sits now, this will be subpar, nowhere near optimal. Though it is viable. I mean we can all agree that currently, it's not going to be super high DPS boat. Looking at it right now, given it hull and boff seating, one has to consider the possibility of this being more of tanker/support craft. Which one can currently build for. Because, we can all admit, with the Gamma BZ and the Swarm, the number of people getting blown up is on the rise. Which, a tanker can help alleviate. I know, not the dps craze as normal, I'm mentioning a tank here after all. Just emphasizing that there is more than one thing you can do with a ship, you can hunt me down and lynch me later for stepping away from the DPS boats with this.
That's how I'm looking at. I'm looking it from all sides, not just from the DPS boat side of it. There is more to the game than that. This is one ship, where you have to step outside of the DPS boat, and consider the other avenues of approach. Because I read something on this, and if I remember correctly, it has the third highest amount of health for this type of ship.
I think you might be a mite unfair here. In fact, I think ere the opposite is true: Cryptic, driven by a typical marketing impulse to pretend to instantly gratify its customers, just releases a ship quickly, with a not-even-hinted-to promise of 'more being on the horizon.' This all against the backdrop of veteran players knowing full-well, that once Cryptic has released something, they won't go back and change it (the odd bug notwithstanding). So, I'm not surprised some ppl here -- me included -- are scratching their heads a bit, politely, when looking at this ship, seeing no obvious way to make it truly viable with its current boff layout. Maybe those Science Mine abilities I suggested earlier are 'on the horizon,' but, if not...
I think the main problem with mines, isn't their damage. It's their Chase range, which is 3.5km. Now add to this tethered mines that you can drag around, makes them delivery bombs. Little more that a pop-n-drop, or satchel charge, a Combat Engineer might use. Other than one set of tethered mines, which are in the lobi store. All other mines are moored, i.e. set and forget. These then become limpet, or magnentic, mines when a enemy passes within the chase range.
Now, if we had other mines, namely drifting, remote controlled, or mobile mines(torpedo delivered to target area), we would see them having a bit more effectiveness. We'd also see a bit more effectiveness, if they increased the chase range. Mines cover a wide area, 3.5km in space, in not a very wide area. These should cover a good 10km, the same range as every other ship weapon. And yes, a speed increase on the chase as well. The propulsion systems in Star Trek would allow for it.
So on the fundamental level the mines themselves are not flawed. It's more that they're applying Naval Mines to space. Which is understandable, mines are not easy to understand. You might think they are. But, I was a Combat Engineer in the Army. It was my job to set up and clear mine fields. And we don't have much in the way of crawler mines now. But, these are pretty spot on for an anti-personnel mine. Their detonation radius, or kill range, is right at 5-15 meter. We do have anti-tank mines as well. These you can find on Kobali, and generally come with a 35 meter kill range. They're just overly large. With current explosives, a 35 meter kill range land mine, weighs 30 pounds, 25 pounds of high explosives and a 5 pound casing, and would be about the size of a scanner/fax/printer you use at home. I digress here, back on to what i was saying,
With the systems inherent to Star Trek, there should be a wide variety of mines. Not just the pop-n-drops we have. Using the crawler mine as example, mobile space mines are not that far fetched. As a matter of fact, given that it is space, I'd say mines would be quiet mobile, in order to cover a larger area. So the mines themselves aren't flawed. Just their utilization is.
can't really do a cannon build unless you go all turrets. all rep turrets & the heavy turrets from mission rewards I guess, include 1 crafted turret. /shrug
As for Tethered Quantum mines I found those terrible they do half the damage of normal mines. I wouldn’t recommend anyone use them. I found swapping from Tethered Quantum mines to basic normal Quantum mines doubled my damage output. They really need a balance pass.
Yeah I didn't say the tethered ones were any good. Just pointing out we had them. For me a tethered mine would be more of a trait or console, not the mine itself. So that it would be an option for all mines. I'd almost say a boff abitliy, with say a 30 second cooldown, maybe a one minute cd.
The tethered mine doing less damage always bothered me. As someone that has been trained in the use of explosives, I can say, attaching a tow string to an explosive device, does not lower it explosive potential. So that is one mistake they did make with the tethered mines.
And, with what I'm seeing in this thread, and you mentioning it. There are people looking at mines in conjunction with this ship. Which, sort of accomplishes that damage pass. I expect to see more than a few posts about it, when people start toying around with it.
And like most here, I'm not expecting this to be some super ship. Given the setup, and the lack of available rear weaponry. So, I'm expecting subpar with it, starting out. But, keeping a bit of hope, we may get some improvements out of it.
I was thinking this on page 3 but nobody said anything so I figured it was really bad.
The idea was to reduce weapon power use to allow for more shield, engine, and aux power. Tractor mines to lock something down along with web mines while the clusters do their thing. Front arc could spam plasma torpedoes like a machine gun.
I will say that that the Vorgon pets only use beams, so using Coordinating Strike would be out of the question on a cannon/turret build.
The ship is worth getting for the A.S.S. Card if nothing else. Broadside, at the moment, seems to be the best build for this ship. It would be interesting to see if someone could pull off a mine build off this ship.
You can. There's a Trait for that.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Non-Linear_Progression
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
https://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Multi-Target_Tractor_Arrays
Actually it would not be bad, it is basically a 3/3 hybrid carrier arrangement with two extra hardpoints for mines or turrets/omnis reminiscent of the phalanx turrets on present day ships. It is an interesting sounding change of pace from the usual forward oriented cannon based ships.
The changeling gun has a problem now, while it would slot alongside another mission omni at first it no longer does so. However, there still is no restriction on turrets so it is still possible to use as many weapon slots as you want for omnidirectional weapons as long as no more than two of them are normal omnibeam.
> echatty wrote: »
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> Personally, I see no reason to go into the hundreds of thousands in the DPS chase. That is simply way overkill when 10k gets the job done nicely.
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> This isn't true at all. 10K is functionally indistinguishable from AFK. Just try to do even ISA with only 10K. You will fail. Just by the numbers alone, with somewhere around 50M HP that have to be blasted off within 15 minutes, you're looking at a minimum of 35K. Otherwise you may as well be AFK, since you're entirely reliant on someone else to carry you through it. And that's easymode content. You just won't cut it endgame that way. Something like HSE pushes into the range of 200K+ needed.
Hmm, 50m/5 = 10m. 15min = 900s. 10,000,000/900 ~ 11.1k
Thus, 35k is an exaggeration, and 10k may not be a perfectly equal share, but it's not far off. 35k might be more of a comfort issue, but it is not a completion issue.
You conveniently left out the fact that 3/3 ships have 2 hangar bays.. this has one.
> dracounguis wrote: »
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> I'm glad it's 3/5. I'm getting tired of everything having 5/3. Even freaking 'normal' cruisers are getting 5/3 instead of 4/4.
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> I never truly understood the benefit of a 5/3 layout on Cruisers, as you're generally broadsiding anyway (unless you're trying to turn it into an Escort, like I often do, and watch that fail miserably, LOL). Theoretically, there should be a small advantage on approach, where 5 fore would benefit you briefly; but otherwise I don't see it.
5/3 has a small advantage on approach, 3/5 has a small advantage on retreat. Problem Solved
Both are functionally identical on broadside, and 3/5 means you're not as weak turning away when you need to pull back for healing. Just slot a rank 1 copy of BO or Target Subsystems to be used when something is in your aft or when you turn to expose different shield facings.