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Forced to do Kobali missions?

lexusk19lexusk19 Member Posts: 1,415 Arc User
Why are we forced to do the Kobali ground missions? Im lvl 60 and trying to skip the the Iconian war arc, but am stuck playing the Kobali ground stuff... I dont care about them at all, wish the Vaadwaur would wipe them all out. >.>
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Comments

  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,215 Arc User
    The only mission arcs I hate being forced to do is Future Proof and Yesterday's War.
    I stream on Twitch, look for Avoozl_
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,669 Community Moderator
    I honestly like ground stuff. And that Kobali Crossbow is a pretty decent weapon. Just wish the weapon sounds were more like what the NPCs use.

    And I THINK it still shifts to the stock Polaron Rifle for a bit after doing a melee with it.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    I also like ground. Kobalistan isn't the greatest ground area but it isn't bad TBH. I quite enjoy myself there.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,669 Community Moderator
    My main's Enterprise era MACO outfit loves it there too. :D
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
    normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
    colored text = mod mode
  • byozuma#0956 byozuma Member Posts: 502 Arc User
    I feel your pain. As soon as I got to the first plot point my sense of morality was challenged... and by the third one I was wishing I could switch sides and help the Vaadwuar... even the major NPC was thinking like I was at the end. Guess war crimes can be added to the list of the Federation's 'accomplishments'.
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  • gjohnny1990gjohnny1990 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    Kobalistan

    I'm using that from now on.

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  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
    Once was enough with these sicking body snatchers.

    After going through with this on the other 5 toons, sheesh!

    Protomatter bomb, AWAY!!!

    From a Terran point of view, that would work. I'd also side with the Vaadduar and expose the Kobali's true colors to the whole galaxy.
    NMXb2ph.png
      "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
      -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
    • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,803 Arc User
      I find it difficult to sympathize with the Vaadwuar given their preference for chemical warfare and genocide. The Kobali were jerks not giving their people back, but that's a matter for diplomacy, not chemical castration of a species.
    • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
      jexsamx wrote: »
      I find it difficult to sympathize with the Vaadwuar given their preference for chemical warfare and genocide. The Kobali were jerks not giving their people back, but that's a matter for diplomacy, not chemical castration of a species.

      Both sides are not exactly angels, Terran diplomacy to this problem is strong arm the Kobali into returning the Vaadwaur their people and then make the Kobali sign a treaty saying they have to ask permission first. The Vaadwaur can be dealt with later.
      NMXb2ph.png
        "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
        -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
      • arionisaarionisa Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
        Please, not yet another thread on the morality of the kobali arc, a topic which I do believe is already in the FCTs.

        @baddmoonrizin
        LTS and loving it.
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      • kjwashingtonkjwashington Member Posts: 2,529 Arc User
        jexsamx wrote: »
        I find it difficult to sympathize with the Vaadwuar given their preference for chemical warfare and genocide. The Kobali were jerks not giving their people back, but that's a matter for diplomacy, not chemical castration of a species.

        Both sides are not exactly angels, Terran diplomacy to this problem is strong arm the Kobali into returning the Vaadwaur their people and then make the Kobali sign a treaty saying they have to ask permission first. The Vaadwaur can be dealt with later.

        Wasn't that essentially what happened at the end of the Kobali missions? The alliance pressured the Kobali to release the Vaadwaur (though as an offer to the Vaadwaur for a ceasefire) and only turn willing people into Kobali.
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        Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
      • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
        The issue is that we're attempting to apply black and white morals to Blue and Orange morality, as far as the Kobali can tell most species just abandon a dead body, dead bodies they require to procreate, on top of this they've found a vault of cryogenically frozen Vaadwaur where several of the cryogenics have failed. Can you blame them for taking advantage of this.

        Now it's been a while since I played the missions, but last I checked, the Kobali only took Vaadwaur bodies that were already dead and didn't purposely sabotage the cryogenic chambers, the Vaadwaur then returned and demanded that the Kobali leave the temple and that all Kobali made from Vaadwaur be returned to them, the Kobali were willing to concede to the first point (leave the temple and never return) but not the second (hand over a large part of their population based on their ancestry).

        I'm digressing a little, but the fact is that the Kobali see nothing wrong with "recycling" the bodies of the dead, it's a necessity for them to continue as a species after all. And whilst it's easy to sympathise with the Vaadwaur's opinions over their dead being raised as Kobali, they fired the first shots when the Kobali refused to forcibly hand over those made from Vaadwaur against their will and had other options when it came to preventing Kobali use of their dead like vaporising their dead or recovering the bodies themselves. Instead they chose to turn all their people into biological weapons.

        Am I saying that the Kobali were 100% in the right, no, but they acted as they did out of a desire to continue their own species, they were more than willing to step back when the Vaadwaur returned and only fought the war out of self defence when the Vaadwaur decided that the perfectly reasonable offer of the rest of their surviving soldiers being returned wasn't good enough.

        In response to the Kobali not immediately rolling over and submitting to their demands, the Vaadwaur attacked an otherwise peaceful species, they turned their own soldiers into biological weapons and only stood down when the alliance forced their kobali allies to submit to Vaadwaur demands.

        Were the Kobali right to act as they did, no, but I do feel they had some moral high ground over the Vaadwaur.
      • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,545 Arc User
        edited May 2018
        I'll take Kobalistan any day over any mission where I have to hear 'Kurland here' more than once in five seconds. I'll also take Kobalistan over any mission where I have to listen to Tovan Khev go on forever about his sister or his ex girlfriend who went all Tal Shiar on him. Or a mission where I have to listen to Hakeev declare once again about how powerful he is. Or anything at all within a half light year of Empress Sela.

        There are things in this game far, far worse than Kobalistan.
        A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
      • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
        Kobalistan has one big problem, the enemy keeps respawning faster than you can drop them
        NMXb2ph.png
          "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
          -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
        • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 11,007 Community Moderator
          arionisa wrote: »
          Please, not yet another thread on the morality of the kobali arc, a topic which I do believe is already in the FCTs.

          @baddmoonrizin

          Actually, no, this is not in the FCT.
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        • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,899 Arc User
          You're only forced into going to the planet to talk to the guy for the first bit then everything is skippable after that.
        • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,669 Community Moderator
          I want the Kobali outfit back man...
          That thing has nice parts and not all my characters have it.
          db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
          I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
          The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
          normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
          colored text = mod mode
        • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,286 Arc User
          edited May 2018
          The worst thing about Kobali ground is the MUSIC IMO. It is so tiresome in the background not like the one in Dino land. Devs should swap that one or mute it all together.​​
          tumblr_ncbngkt24X1ry46hlo1_400.gif
        • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,669 Community Moderator
          storules wrote: »
          The worst thing about Kobali ground is the MUSIC IMO. It is so tiresome in the background not like the one in Dino land. Devs should swap that one or mute it all together.​​

          You could always put on your own music too.
          db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
          I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
          The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
          normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
          colored text = mod mode
        • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
          edited May 2018
          jexsamx wrote: »
          I find it difficult to sympathize with the Vaadwuar given their preference for chemical warfare and genocide. The Kobali were jerks not giving their people back, but that's a matter for diplomacy, not chemical castration of a species.

          And I find it difficult to sympathize with the Klingons in this game because less than five years ago they were conducting ethnic cleansing operations and the Klingon PC canonically tortures a man to death. But they're the Federation's allies now because reasons.

          And as far as the Vaads' use of chemical weapons goes, get over your knee-jerk reaction and look at what they actually did. First, they inoculated themselves against the virus the Kobali use to make more of themselves. That's simply good strategy: it denies their enemy a source of reinforcements. And it's more thorough than simply burning their dead: the Vaadwaur can't possibly recover every dead man or badly wounded POW so I would've suggested the same thing if it was Starfleet fighting the Kobali. After that, they launched a tactical chemical attack against enemy ground troops, using a weapon that, from screen evidence, kills quickly and painlessly. Compare that to the effects of the World War I chlorine, mustard, and phosgene gas attacks that actually prompted Earth's chemical weapons bans. It's peanuts.

          Now compare that with the Kobali. Not only are they graverobbers, they reproduce by r*pe, non-consensually infecting humanoid corpses with a virus regardless of the wishes of the decedent's family or larger culture. And forget the wishes of the decedent, which they become capable of expressing when brought back: if you don't like it, they devote military assets to bring you back into the fold at gunpoint, and try to passive-aggressively guilt-trip you into compliance if you manage to get back to your own people. A friend-of-a-friend who was date-r*ped basically said that was equivalent to saying that she should be forced to live out the rest of her life with her attacker.

          Which leads into the next point: the Kobali are a net drain on the Alliance's resources. Their ships are wholly outdated -- remember the Samsar-class was built with donated Alpha Quadrant tech -- and as a natural consequence of the way they reproduce, their population won't be very high: unattended corpses that haven't decomposed too far to be usable are few and far between. And they repeatedly lie to us about mission-critical intelligence. Contrast this with the Vaads, who despite probably having an even smaller population than the Kobali (remember they're the survivors of a genocide themselves via cryogenic vaults like the one the Kobali are squatting on), are shown kicking the cr*p out of the Voth and the Borg. And to top it off, Eldex is roughly as p*ssed at the Iconians as we are.

          Long story short, the Vaadwaur are no worse than the Klingons or the pre-war Cardassians and they aren't a waste of carbon. That's the kind of "enemy of my enemy" we need. But we get stuck with the damned zombies I suppose because they're mammals and Reptiles Are Abhorrent.

          TL;DR: There is no more horrifying line in that entire expansion than the statement in "Takedown" that the Kobali had medical duty during the invasion of Vaadwaur Prime, and no more lazy of an excuse than the throwaway line in "Dust to Dust" that "oh, Eldex kinda turned on us offscreen because reasons". (I didn't even see it my first time through the mission, that's how lazy Cryptic was about the writing in that subplot.)
          "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
          — Sabaton, "Great War"
          VZ9ASdg.png

          Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
        • storulesstorules Member Posts: 3,286 Arc User
          rattler2 wrote: »
          storules wrote: »
          The worst thing about Kobali ground is the MUSIC IMO. It is so tiresome in the background not like the one in Dino land. Devs should swap that one or mute it all together.

          You could always put on your own music too.

          Thats what I do all the time tiger-2.gif

          That Kobali battlezone music is just so darn annoying. Otherwise, it is a good area to grind and get some nice marks.​​
          tumblr_ncbngkt24X1ry46hlo1_400.gif
        • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
          edited May 2018
          starswordc wrote: »
          jexsamx wrote: »
          I find it difficult to sympathize with the Vaadwuar given their preference for chemical warfare and genocide. The Kobali were jerks not giving their people back, but that's a matter for diplomacy, not chemical castration of a species.

          And I find it difficult to sympathize with the Klingons in this game because less than five years ago they were conducting ethnic cleansing operations and the Klingon PC canonically tortures a man to death. But they're the Federation's allies now because reasons.

          And as far as the Vaads' use of chemical weapons goes, get over your knee-jerk reaction and look at what they actually did. First, they inoculated themselves against the virus the Kobali use to make more of themselves. That's simply good strategy: it denies their enemy a source of reinforcements. And it's more thorough than simply burning their dead: the Vaadwaur can't possibly recover every dead man or badly wounded POW so I would've suggested the same thing if it was Starfleet fighting the Kobali. After that, they launched a tactical chemical attack against enemy ground troops, using a weapon that, from screen evidence, kills quickly and painlessly. Compare that to the effects of the World War I chlorine, mustard, and phosgene gas attacks that actually prompted Earth's chemical weapons bans. It's peanuts.

          Now compare that with the Kobali. Not only are they graverobbers, they reproduce by r*pe, non-consensually infecting humanoid corpses with a virus regardless of the wishes of the decedent's family or larger culture. And forget the wishes of the decedent, which they become capable of expressing when brought back: if you don't like it, they devote military assets to bring you back into the fold at gunpoint, and try to passive-aggressively guilt-trip you into compliance if you manage to get back to your own people. A friend-of-a-friend who was date-r*ped basically said that was equivalent to saying that she should be forced to live out the rest of her life with her attacker.

          Which leads into the next point: the Kobali are a net drain on the Alliance's resources. Their ships are wholly outdated -- remember the Samsar-class was built with donated Alpha Quadrant tech -- and as a natural consequence of the way they reproduce, their population won't be very high: unattended corpses that haven't decomposed too far to be usable are few and far between. And they repeatedly lie to us about mission-critical intelligence. Contrast this with the Vaads, who despite probably having an even smaller population than the Kobali (remember they're the survivors of a genocide themselves via cryogenic vaults like the one the Kobali are squatting on), are shown kicking the cr*p out of the Voth and the Borg. And to top it off, Eldex is roughly as p*ssed at the Iconians as we are.

          Long story short, the Vaadwaur are no worse than the Klingons or the pre-war Cardassians and they aren't a waste of carbon. That's the kind of "enemy of my enemy" we need. But we get stuck with the damned zombies I suppose because they're mammals and Reptiles Are Abhorrent.

          TL;DR: There is no more horrifying line in that entire expansion than the statement in "Takedown" that the Kobali had medical duty during the invasion of Vaadwaur Prime, and no more lazy of an excuse than the throwaway line in "Dust to Dust" that "oh, Eldex kinda turned on us offscreen because reasons". (I didn't even see it my first time through the mission, that's how lazy Cryptic was about the writing in that subplot.)

          No side is truly an angel, given the choice I would have gone "not my problem, both sides are equally in the wrong."
          The Vaadwaur were ruthless in battle because it was out of necessity under Gaul's leadership, maybe under Eldrex's leadership they will be allies.
          NMXb2ph.png
            "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
            -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
          • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
            No side is truly an angel, given the choice I would have gone "not my problem, both sides are equally in the wrong."
            The Vaadwaur were ruthless in battle because it was out of necessity under Gaul's leadership, maybe under Eldrex's leadership they will be allies.

            Yeah, but the thing is, I don't see the situation as Grey and Gray Morality so much as being Black and Gray Morality, with us being railroaded into supporting the Black against the Gray and enabling them to continue their bad behavior: the same mission that brings up the Vaads inoculating themselves against Kobali resurrection requires the PC to develop a countermeasure to let the Kobali infect them again. Whereas I just don't see the Vaads as behaving any worse than a certain playable faction, that also recently started a war on the stated casus belli of ancient territorial claims. The Klinks wanted the disputed territories on their Federation border back, the Vaads want their old empire back. The Klinks committed war crimes, the Vaads committed war crimes. Why is the one allowed to skate but the other must be opposed at all costs?

            Which reminded me of this thread from a couple years ago on VOY's casual xenophobia regarding an even less humanlike adversary...
            "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
            — Sabaton, "Great War"
            VZ9ASdg.png

            Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
          • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,016 Arc User
            edited May 2018
            starswordc wrote: »
            No side is truly an angel, given the choice I would have gone "not my problem, both sides are equally in the wrong."
            The Vaadwaur were ruthless in battle because it was out of necessity under Gaul's leadership, maybe under Eldrex's leadership they will be allies.

            Yeah, but the thing is, I don't see the situation as Grey and Gray Morality so much as being Black and Gray Morality, with us being railroaded into supporting the Black against the Gray and enabling them to continue their bad behavior: the same mission that brings up the Vaads inoculating themselves against Kobali resurrection requires the PC to develop a countermeasure to let the Kobali infect them again. Whereas I just don't see the Vaads as behaving any worse than a certain playable faction, that also recently started a war on the stated casus belli of ancient territorial claims. The Klinks wanted the disputed territories on their Federation border back, the Vaads want their old empire back. The Klinks committed war crimes, the Vaads committed war crimes. Why is the one allowed to skate but the other must be opposed at all costs?

            Which reminded me of this thread from a couple years ago on VOY's casual xenophobia regarding an even less humanlike adversary...

            Politics, the Federation need the Klingon Empire onside which includes not bringing up awkward questions.
            An example would be the Western Allies being allied to Stalin in Earth's WW2, they have to keep him onside because they knew what he was like.
            NMXb2ph.png
              "The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
              -Lord Commander Solar Macharius
            • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,669 Community Moderator
              starswordc wrote: »
              The Klinks wanted the disputed territories on their Federation border back, the Vaads want their old empire back. The Klinks committed war crimes, the Vaads committed war crimes. Why is the one allowed to skate but the other must be opposed at all costs?

              After 900 years, I'm pretty sure other governments had moved in by then.

              As for War Crimes committed by the Klingons vs War Crimes committed by the Vaadwaur...

              The Vaadwaur committed Genocide multiple times. The Klingon Empire never did.

              The Morality of the Kobali "Temple" has already been taken care of in game. The Vaadwaur STARTED the war because they wanted their people back. Under normal circumstances that would be understandable. They crossed the line when they started developing chemical weapons specifically designed to perpetrate the Genocide of the Kobali.

              In the case of the Kobali... its really the lesser of the two evils that the player sides with. And Captain Kim does call out the Kobali pretty much all the way up through Dust to Dust. And unlike the Vaadwaur, the Kobali were actually willing to change. The Vaadwaur... the only language they understand is firepower. They wouldn't have stopped. Especially with Gaul driving them to conquest.

              Would the Vaadwaur have stopped once they reclaimed their historical territory? I don't think so. They are highly aggressive. They would have continued to expand, destroying more civilizations while under the hidden control of the Iconians. Hell... they might have even without that hidden control.
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              I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
              The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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            • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,965 Arc User
              edited May 2018
              rattler2 wrote: »
              starswordc wrote: »
              The Klinks wanted the disputed territories on their Federation border back, the Vaads want their old empire back. The Klinks committed war crimes, the Vaads committed war crimes. Why is the one allowed to skate but the other must be opposed at all costs?

              After 900 years, I'm pretty sure other governments had moved in by then.

              As for War Crimes committed by the Klingons vs War Crimes committed by the Vaadwaur...

              The Vaadwaur committed Genocide multiple times. The Klingon Empire never did.
              I already cited the Klingons engaging in ethnic cleansing against Federation civilians.
              rattler2 wrote: »
              The Morality of the Kobali "Temple" has already been taken care of in game. The Vaadwaur STARTED the war because they wanted their people back. Under normal circumstances that would be understandable. They crossed the line when they started developing chemical weapons specifically designed to perpetrate the Genocide of the Kobali.
              Also already addressed: They were using them against Kobali troops on the battlefield.
              rattler2 wrote: »
              In the case of the Kobali... its really the lesser of the two evils that the player sides with.
              No, they're not. At least the Vaadwaur don't make any pretensions about their motives and intentions.
              rattler2 wrote: »
              And Captain Kim does call out the Kobali pretty much all the way up through Dust to Dust. And unlike the Vaadwaur, the Kobali were actually willing to change.
              Yeah, he calls them out, and then gets immediately overruled by that damn Benzite. And they keep lying over and over and over, with their entire excuse boiling down to Nobody Ever Complained Before. Which is a load of complete garbage considering that in TV canon they've demonstrated their willingness to launch military offensives to retrieve single would-be Kobali who reject having it forced on them. Do you seriously believe this is the first time somebody's gotten mad enough at them to retaliate in force? Hell, that's probably why they were nomadic before they landed on Kobali Prime.
              rattler2 wrote: »
              The Vaadwaur... the only language they understand is firepower. They wouldn't have stopped. Especially with Gaul driving them to conquest.
              As evidenced by... the fact that Gaul had to have his senior commanders infested with bluegills to get them to go along with him? Oh wait, that and Eldex kind of indicate the exact opposite.

              And by the end of the story, Gaul's dead. I say dump the damned zombies like a hot potato and get somebody who's actually useful on our side.
              rattler2 wrote: »
              Would the Vaadwaur have stopped once they reclaimed their historical territory? I don't think so. They are highly aggressive. They would have continued to expand, destroying more civilizations while under the hidden control of the Iconians. Hell... they might have even without that hidden control.
              Would the Klingons have stopped expanding if they hadn't collided with the Federation? The Romulan Empire? The Cardassians (@gulberat noted their similarity to prewar Cardies, too)? The Tzenkethi? The Gorn? The Ferengi? (Yes, the Ferengi: remember the Battle of Maxia?)

              I'm not saying Gaul didn't need to be stopped. I'm saying that the Vaads writ large are no worse than multiple governments back in the Alpha Quadrant with whom the Federation maintained a steady detente for more than a century, and that the Kobali are smiling passive-aggressive monsters that don't deserve the blood we shed for them.
              "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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            • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,586 Arc User
              I think we're going a bit off topic... the thread was about skipping the arc, not the morality of the situation.
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