Losing 3 ships in a row should reduce you to level 40.
Might be a bit drastic, but something along those lines. With this, couple in a ship repair. That gives use to the active ship roster. That way, if you die say 4 or 5 times in a given amount of time, say a 24 hour period, that ships goes in for repairs, making that ship unavailable for use for 24 - 48 hours, and dry-docking it doesn't let this timer expire. This give the players the ability to swap out to a different ship and keep going.
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
How many players do you think would accept this?
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
Hmmm... that works for the ship side of things. But still leaves us looking at the ground side. So.. perhaps the poor performance puts your captain on a Medical Leave of Absence until a Medical Clearance is bought?
This way it works out for both. The decommission means that ship can't do anything, thus locking it out of content. Which can be gotten around by switching ships.
Then a ground version, the Medical Leave, affects the toon the same way.
This way, a poor performance on the ground, can lock a player out of ground stfs, battlezones, and the Dranuur Invasion. But still allow them to captain their ship in space combat. Then the reverse can apply for those that perform poorly ins pace combat.
The only battlezone that's unaffected by this would be the Kobali episodes.
If you make the Second LIfe, or Metaphasic Radiation token, a C-Store item, for say, 500 zen, that's tradable. Then players could buy them on the exchange. This way, they aren't locked out of doing the episodes to make money. It just locks them out of doing the queues and battlegrounds.
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
While I agree the current system is to forgiving I think this is to punishing.
All these ideas about forcing / encouraging / whatever the playerbase to increase their performance through punishing them and forcing them to pay hundreds of zens for either a Kobali-token or to get their ship back are nice and all, but it appears there are some elements that haven't really been considered.
I think it's safe to assume that those who die often in this game, generally don't have the best gear, ships and understanding of game mechanics and such. So tell me, how is taking away their ships or even their gear as some have suggested, going to help them improve? Even if they suddenly figure out how to best play a mission (which is kind of difficult without a ship btw) then that knowledge won't be of much use to them if they first have to pay hundreds of zen to give it another try.
This would only demotivate players and cause them to quit. Which of course seems to be the sole purpose, as stated explicitly by some and I don't see how that would, in any way, help the game.
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
How many players do you think would accept this?
Not many. Which, strangely, seems to be the main reason for some to argue for this system to be implemented.
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but why are you actually playing an MMO if all you want to do is chasing people away?
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
All these ideas about forcing / encouraging / whatever the playerbase to increase their performance through punishing them and forcing them to pay hundreds of zens for either a Kobali-token or to get their ship back are nice and all, but it appears there are some elements that haven't really been considered.
I think it's safe to assume that those who die often in this game, generally don't have the best gear, ships and understanding of game mechanics and such. So tell me, how is taking away their ships or even their gear as some have suggested, going to help them improve? Even if they suddenly figure out how to best play a mission (which is kind of difficult without a ship btw) then that knowledge won't be of much use to them if they first have to pay hundreds of zen to give it another try.
This would only demotivate players and cause them to quit. Which of course seems to be the sole purpose, as stated explicitly by some and I don't see how that would, in any way, help the game.
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
How many players do you think would accept this?
Not many. Which, strangely, seems to be the main reason for some to argue for this system to be implemented.
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but why are you actually playing an MMO if all you want to do is chasing people away?
Well we're looking at various options. I started a discussion like this, An Idea To Help Out The Queues. This is actually a part of that as well.
I'm not actually looking at ways to punish the player. But, perma-death is a part of that. So, it's worth discussing.
While we're discussing that option. As you can see, we've also discussed several others. The main thing everyone is looking for, is to provide an incentive to players to actually learn the STF's. The main reason why they do it, is the reward. But a lot of queues have some very lackluster rewards.
So what we're really doing is looking for the balance between the extremes of what we've discussed.
You can now see Rule of Acquisition 239 in action (Never be afraid to mislabel a product). Cleverly worked into the Thread those 'Kobali' Tokens were introduced and then the idea that they should be tradable on the Exchange appears. EC is at the root of all this.
We all know that Cryptic is NOT going to make Lockbox/R&D Promotion Pack Ships Account-wide so that is off the table. Well now who is going to provide the friendly services of making those ships available for the poor sods that have lost it all. Yes, the Ferengi of course.
At 500-1000 Zen each you'll probably be talking about 20-30 million EC each. Lots of money to be made there which can be plowed right back in to obtaining ships for resale. Ships will then become more expensive on the Exchange as more will be needed thanks to 'Permafrost', returning prices to their glory days before the Infinity.
Whichever way this debacle goes they will make their EC.
Bottom line, this will NEVER be implemented by Cryptic PERIOD. Too many people would be afraid to do anything and just go back indoors behind shuttered windows. Many others would simply quit. Time to turn out the lights and go home Cryptic. The halls of STO would be littered with tumbleweeds blowing through them.
Many, many mixed metaphors.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
All these ideas about forcing / encouraging / whatever the playerbase to increase their performance through punishing them and forcing them to pay hundreds of zens for either a Kobali-token or to get their ship back are nice and all, but it appears there are some elements that haven't really been considered.
I think it's safe to assume that those who die often in this game, generally don't have the best gear, ships and understanding of game mechanics and such. So tell me, how is taking away their ships or even their gear as some have suggested, going to help them improve? Even if they suddenly figure out how to best play a mission (which is kind of difficult without a ship btw) then that knowledge won't be of much use to them if they first have to pay hundreds of zen to give it another try.
This would only demotivate players and cause them to quit. Which of course seems to be the sole purpose, as stated explicitly by some and I don't see how that would, in any way, help the game.
Back on topic: there have been some great ideas in this thread but I still keep coming back to permanent death as the most humane penalty for poor performance.
Another idea might be having your equipped ship "decommissioned" and no longer playable unless you purchase a recommission token from the cstore. 500-1k zen.
How many players do you think would accept this?
Not many. Which, strangely, seems to be the main reason for some to argue for this system to be implemented.
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but why are you actually playing an MMO if all you want to do is chasing people away?
Well we're looking at various options. I started a discussion like this, An Idea To Help Out The Queues. This is actually a part of that as well.
I'm not actually looking at ways to punish the player. But, perma-death is a part of that. So, it's worth discussing.
While we're discussing that option. As you can see, we've also discussed several others. The main thing everyone is looking for, is to provide an incentive to players to actually learn the STF's. The main reason why they do it, is the reward. But a lot of queues have some very lackluster rewards.
So what we're really doing is looking for the balance between the extremes of what we've discussed.
Providing an incentive to players to learn about an STF can be done in non-punishing ways though, ways that don't add huge costs to players who likely already have trouble collecting their resources in-game - because, after all, they are assumed to not know the game or have bad gear which all boils down to them not performing well and dying often and so on.
Right now, on the front page of General Discussion, there is a thread related to the Diamond channel challenge. There have been such challenges for other DPS channels.
There is the Science channel for those who want to perform better with their science ships. There is the Reddit builds page, we have the Academy section on here. Then there are various older dedicated ground channels which I assume are full of experienced players who are happy to help.
To me it seems that such help and advice is doing and has done a better job than any kind of punishment that is being discussed here.
Besides, if the rewards are the main reason for people to play the queues, then that is your incentive, right there. They will likely not be interested in learning an STF if the reward is all they care about. Or they do want that, in which case punishing them won't help them. Nor us.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but why are you actually playing an MMO if all you want to do is chasing people away?
Because what breeks does, always, is poke at conversations, trying to get other people stirred up. I strongly doubt he cares one way or the other about the proposal, it's the arguing/fighting that he lives for. It's sad, but there you go.
Jon, Nabreeki is the kindest, warmest, bravest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life. How can you say that.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Radical changes are not always popular, but are often very necessary. I'm not worried about players leaving the game. I see this as a way to attract a lot of folks who left -- Dpsers, pvpers. The core niches of all MMOs.
You can keep the lights on by appeasing whiny Trek fans who just want to play Kirk. But that's about it.
This game really isn't designed with PvP'ers or DPS'ers as the main target group. To me it seems that appeasing the Trek fans who want to be Kirk is exactly the group that they have been focussing on for a long time. Which is also quite understandable as there are other games that are built with appeasing a PvP playerbase from the beginning.
Which brings us back to the notion that such a change in target group would be a radical change and should have been made early on, not after seven years.
Looks like we've completed another circle. You know what's so funny about circles? They don't change anything. Which means: Bad idea is still bad.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Years ago there was a very robust PvP group in STO, and more recently a large DPS community. It was designed to accommodate a multitude of niche players until changes were made to alienate them.
Then soon afterward there were ship sales, cstore sales, you name it on a very regular basis. You tell me that those departures didn't make a dent.
If I have to believe some other forum users though, this game has never paid much attention to the wishes of PvP'ers. Even if there were PvP'ers, then the game still wasn't focussing on satisfying their needs and wants. The DPS community is still here, as far as 'DPS'ers' can be considered a community since they do exactly what everyone else does... dealing damage per second.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Only the PvP part is hearsay because I never really bothered with it. Feel free to point out where and when PvP was a major concern for the Devs though.
Not that this talk about niches really matters because the topic of discussion was about making changes that would affect STO's entire population (assuming there are no players who never play PvE missions) but anyway. If you want to discuss that, sure, why not?
It's not like I am trying to get the devs to make a major change to the game so if you want to wander off in all sorts of different topics, that's fine with me. It probably won't help your case though.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
You MAY have good intentions in your opinion on why perma-death is a good idea, and it is an opinion you are entitled to, but, please take the following into consideration:
Calling people "undesirables", "whiny Trek fans who just want to play Kirk", "looser PUG groups" and generally putting down probably 90% of the player base is NOT any way to endear anyone to your opinion. Feel free to continue, but all that does is reinforce opinions of you, that all you want is a "elitist game club with people I deem worthy" in it. Good luck with that
And with that, in my opinion, this thread has become more noise to ignore. Peace Out.
Only the PvP part is hearsay because I never really bothered with it. Feel free to point out where and when PvP was a major concern for the Devs though.
Not that this talk about niches really matters because the topic of discussion was about making changes that would affect STO's entire population (assuming there are no players who never play PvE missions) but anyway. If you want to discuss that, sure, why not?
It's not like I am trying to get the devs to make a major change to the game so if you want to wander off in all sorts of different topics, that's fine with me. It probably won't help your case though.
The PvP part use to be a concern, as it use to be the only way that a Klingon Empire player could level their character. This is before the implementation of the Klingon Story. So yes, it use to be a concern.
Though, Gozer, the original dev for PvP, left when the higher ups didn't listen to his concerns, and went full bore in to power creep. This was around the time the Fleet system was introduced. The thing here, is Gozer didn't leave any information or notes on is PvP code. Since then, PvP has taken a back seat to PvE, simple because no one has been able to work on the coding for it.
Right now, we have CrypticSpartan working on PvP. Before him there were two dev's between the time Gozer left and Spartan started working. These two left Cryptic under amicable conditions. If I had to guess, I'd say the same thing that made Gozer leave. Runaway power creep, coupled with the fact there was no information on how to work with the PvP coding.
There you go, I've pointed out when PvP use to be a major concern for Cryptic. But that was back in the 2012 -2014 range. I can even tell you what made CaptainGeko develop and extreme dislike for PvP if you would like.
I'm proud of you working the Cardassians into the Thread after all.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
Might be a bit drastic, but something along those lines. With this, couple in a ship repair. That gives use to the active ship roster. That way, if you die say 4 or 5 times in a given amount of time, say a 24 hour period, that ships goes in for repairs, making that ship unavailable for use for 24 - 48 hours, and dry-docking it doesn't let this timer expire. This give the players the ability to swap out to a different ship and keep going.
How many players do you think would accept this?
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Hmmm... that works for the ship side of things. But still leaves us looking at the ground side. So.. perhaps the poor performance puts your captain on a Medical Leave of Absence until a Medical Clearance is bought?
This way it works out for both. The decommission means that ship can't do anything, thus locking it out of content. Which can be gotten around by switching ships.
Then a ground version, the Medical Leave, affects the toon the same way.
This way, a poor performance on the ground, can lock a player out of ground stfs, battlezones, and the Dranuur Invasion. But still allow them to captain their ship in space combat. Then the reverse can apply for those that perform poorly ins pace combat.
The only battlezone that's unaffected by this would be the Kobali episodes.
If you make the Second LIfe, or Metaphasic Radiation token, a C-Store item, for say, 500 zen, that's tradable. Then players could buy them on the exchange. This way, they aren't locked out of doing the episodes to make money. It just locks them out of doing the queues and battlegrounds.
While I agree the current system is to forgiving I think this is to punishing.
I think it's safe to assume that those who die often in this game, generally don't have the best gear, ships and understanding of game mechanics and such. So tell me, how is taking away their ships or even their gear as some have suggested, going to help them improve? Even if they suddenly figure out how to best play a mission (which is kind of difficult without a ship btw) then that knowledge won't be of much use to them if they first have to pay hundreds of zen to give it another try.
This would only demotivate players and cause them to quit. Which of course seems to be the sole purpose, as stated explicitly by some and I don't see how that would, in any way, help the game.
I guess this also answers my previous question
Not many. Which, strangely, seems to be the main reason for some to argue for this system to be implemented.
Maybe I'm just not getting it, but why are you actually playing an MMO if all you want to do is chasing people away?
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Well we're looking at various options. I started a discussion like this, An Idea To Help Out The Queues. This is actually a part of that as well.
I'm not actually looking at ways to punish the player. But, perma-death is a part of that. So, it's worth discussing.
While we're discussing that option. As you can see, we've also discussed several others. The main thing everyone is looking for, is to provide an incentive to players to actually learn the STF's. The main reason why they do it, is the reward. But a lot of queues have some very lackluster rewards.
So what we're really doing is looking for the balance between the extremes of what we've discussed.
We all know that Cryptic is NOT going to make Lockbox/R&D Promotion Pack Ships Account-wide so that is off the table. Well now who is going to provide the friendly services of making those ships available for the poor sods that have lost it all. Yes, the Ferengi of course.
At 500-1000 Zen each you'll probably be talking about 20-30 million EC each. Lots of money to be made there which can be plowed right back in to obtaining ships for resale. Ships will then become more expensive on the Exchange as more will be needed thanks to 'Permafrost', returning prices to their glory days before the Infinity.
Whichever way this debacle goes they will make their EC.
Bottom line, this will NEVER be implemented by Cryptic PERIOD. Too many people would be afraid to do anything and just go back indoors behind shuttered windows. Many others would simply quit. Time to turn out the lights and go home Cryptic. The halls of STO would be littered with tumbleweeds blowing through them.
Many, many mixed metaphors.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Providing an incentive to players to learn about an STF can be done in non-punishing ways though, ways that don't add huge costs to players who likely already have trouble collecting their resources in-game - because, after all, they are assumed to not know the game or have bad gear which all boils down to them not performing well and dying often and so on.
Right now, on the front page of General Discussion, there is a thread related to the Diamond channel challenge. There have been such challenges for other DPS channels.
There is the Science channel for those who want to perform better with their science ships. There is the Reddit builds page, we have the Academy section on here. Then there are various older dedicated ground channels which I assume are full of experienced players who are happy to help.
To me it seems that such help and advice is doing and has done a better job than any kind of punishment that is being discussed here.
Besides, if the rewards are the main reason for people to play the queues, then that is your incentive, right there. They will likely not be interested in learning an STF if the reward is all they care about. Or they do want that, in which case punishing them won't help them. Nor us.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This game really isn't designed with PvP'ers or DPS'ers as the main target group. To me it seems that appeasing the Trek fans who want to be Kirk is exactly the group that they have been focussing on for a long time. Which is also quite understandable as there are other games that are built with appeasing a PvP playerbase from the beginning.
Which brings us back to the notion that such a change in target group would be a radical change and should have been made early on, not after seven years.
Looks like we've completed another circle. You know what's so funny about circles? They don't change anything. Which means: Bad idea is still bad.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
If I have to believe some other forum users though, this game has never paid much attention to the wishes of PvP'ers. Even if there were PvP'ers, then the game still wasn't focussing on satisfying their needs and wants. The DPS community is still here, as far as 'DPS'ers' can be considered a community since they do exactly what everyone else does... dealing damage per second.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Not that this talk about niches really matters because the topic of discussion was about making changes that would affect STO's entire population (assuming there are no players who never play PvE missions) but anyway. If you want to discuss that, sure, why not?
It's not like I am trying to get the devs to make a major change to the game so if you want to wander off in all sorts of different topics, that's fine with me. It probably won't help your case though.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
You MAY have good intentions in your opinion on why perma-death is a good idea, and it is an opinion you are entitled to, but, please take the following into consideration:
Calling people "undesirables", "whiny Trek fans who just want to play Kirk", "looser PUG groups" and generally putting down probably 90% of the player base is NOT any way to endear anyone to your opinion. Feel free to continue, but all that does is reinforce opinions of you, that all you want is a "elitist game club with people I deem worthy" in it. Good luck with that
And with that, in my opinion, this thread has become more noise to ignore. Peace Out.
The PvP part use to be a concern, as it use to be the only way that a Klingon Empire player could level their character. This is before the implementation of the Klingon Story. So yes, it use to be a concern.
Though, Gozer, the original dev for PvP, left when the higher ups didn't listen to his concerns, and went full bore in to power creep. This was around the time the Fleet system was introduced. The thing here, is Gozer didn't leave any information or notes on is PvP code. Since then, PvP has taken a back seat to PvE, simple because no one has been able to work on the coding for it.
Right now, we have CrypticSpartan working on PvP. Before him there were two dev's between the time Gozer left and Spartan started working. These two left Cryptic under amicable conditions. If I had to guess, I'd say the same thing that made Gozer leave. Runaway power creep, coupled with the fact there was no information on how to work with the PvP coding.
There you go, I've pointed out when PvP use to be a major concern for Cryptic. But that was back in the 2012 -2014 range. I can even tell you what made CaptainGeko develop and extreme dislike for PvP if you would like.
I'm proud of you working the Cardassians into the Thread after all.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'