. I miss the random reward after the stfs completes
You must have actually gotten the drops then. I didn't. People would say they have all their alts with MACO/Borg/Honor Guard gear and my main toon was still at 2/3 of one set. I prefer the tried-and-true incremental marks grind to get stuff. At least then effort = rewards. Not RNG = rewards. We got more than enough of that with lockboxes.
I didn't get all the STF drops before they were removed, but I still miss them. The rarity made them worth getting in the first place. The rep stuff I can buy at any time...which usually means I never actually do.
Or put another way, getting a random drop feels like winning a game, whereas a currency grind feels like doing work. And spending hard-earned currency on items I don't actually need for anything feels like a waste.
Speaking of RNGesus... he still hates me on lockboxes too. Literally the ONLY ship I've won was a Tarantula... and I've been around since the Cardi box. Granted I haven't been opening them like a madman, but I do open one or two when I can buy keys off the exchange, but for the most part I just buy stuff outright with ECs.
Now if only I can get my hands on the Ithenite outfit... Ratty wants Toga Party.
I have to say that after grinding out at least 1225 marks per rep on five toons (I reckon that's the bare minimum to get to rank 5, though I usually grind more for a kit module or even a set here and there), I get well and truly sick of repeating queues. If the gear isn't attractive, I don't see much point to playing the same couple of missions over and over. Battlezones feel more open and I at least have a chance at completing some objectives without waiting for other players to wander by.
And elite marks need to stop being inventory items, or at least move into a separate space like R&D materials and regular marks. There are a whole lot of reps now, even with two of them not having elite marks, and that really eats up bank space.
Nerfing Admiralty won't bring people back to the queues. Pruning back the number of queues available at one time might help, probably on some sort of rotation to push people from the handful of popular queues into different ones. Some queues could also use some small tweaks, like muting that guy on Gateway to Gre'thor.
The thing is even though most players in some way do hate random-based rewards/drops, there is also the fact it is a tried an true method of giving a better reason an incentive to do content outside of the typical mark/rep/dil reward that is universal among the stfs. Hell I would not mind if there were schimatics/recipies for the crafting schools that dropped from certain stfs, and difficulties, as that would give so much more value to running the less-profitable stfs.
I would also be fine with the idea of having different drops/projects that you need specific items/materials from certain stfs or even difficulties (like normal, advanced, and elite each have a certain item that is specific to that difficulty.). The idea of having specific items that you need for a project that are tied to a specific que or difficulty gives those ques, and difficulties value an appeal for players to run them.
I also like the idea of either having certain stfs that a rep requests you do for bonus rewards, or even a reward box that contains a veriety of rewards, much like the endevor system. Or even just a rotation of stfs that are availible to be done in the lfg system on a weekly or bi-weekly rotation. Both to me would make doing more of the content more appealing an interesting, though I could also see some kind of decay system that causes the rewards you get from running the same stf multiple times to be reduced making the other stfs more appealing an have a better payout.
Where Red alerts are concearned I would love to see them only have the rep marks that corilate to their given enemy being availible, but only after the devs create quite afew more red alerts that use other enemies an have a varied game-play style to them first. I mean to me the delta quad would have been perfect for a Vaadwaur/herald based red alert, even the Tal-shiar with how weak they are could have worked for the New romulan, and so forth. It would also be nice to have afew more ground based battle/adventure-zones, but I do believe we might have a new one coming.
Queues need to be more rewarding. Just played Defend Rh'ihho Station for the 1st time on Elite in ages. All objectives completed bar 1 and that was don't let a Elachi Spider crawler attach itself to you (I wasn't the one that happened to btw)
Reward 33 Marks. You bet I won't be queuing up for this mission again. 33 marks for an Elite.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
How many marks do you get from ISA and CCA? 75, for 2-6 minutes. How many do you get from Sompek for a 20 Minute Queue? 66.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If what was sugested here happents even more of the players will leave. Not many people have enough ships or time to get over 8k dil/day from admirality. Everyone i know gets 3-4k dil from admirality/day, they add one contraband and usualy one ground stf if not isa or cca to get to 8k. If they can't get any stf they are doing the reputation 1h project on 10 reps. The only thing that keeps me and others still loging now is that 4k. Trying to fix something by nerfing other causes than the real ones it will only cause problems for other players, the ones that still are active.
There are ALOT of newer games that are one time buy or free to play that are way more interesting, less costly and less grindly (or were grind is actualy fun). Devs took the easy way and made this game about the ships and lock boxes cuz people payed. Now same people got bored of playing same content over and over again with no endgame and no chalanging content and moved to other games. In this game curency costs quite alot in real money. If you want to grind it you have to spend hours everyday doing other things that stf's as they don't reward you enough.
The inability of the devs to have a good balance in the game is another problem ... people don't wanna see their build constantly ruined ...
The moneygrab from last 5 or so months unbalanced the sto economy in a considerable way (ask the trading channel guys) ...
Instead of nerfs i sugest more options. Increase the rewards and make the stf's more streamlined and fun. I want to play stf's but after repeating all of then hundreats of times i am bored. Most of the new ones are very long, timegated and utterry not fun.
Forcing players to replay what they got bored in the firstplace is wrong. Is the same thing cryptic does with episodes ...
I love teamed PvE and public PvE in particular. There were really times where I wished cryptic would remove every splinter of Dil everywhere in game besides queues to get peeps to play it. Problem is it would not work out the way! Sick stuff like Mirror AFK and Sompek 5 demonstrate well enough what rout the wide masses of players in this title take if they “have” to tend to queues. Removing Dil from admiralty and/or elsewhere would at best force peeps into DPS channels and not into public matches. They are of no use to me in there.
What this really boils down to is that players either like to play queues or they don’t! Those of us who do will utilize every means (including admiralty we need for alts) to do so as best as possible and those who don’t will utilize every means to avoid them as best as possible.
Forcing peeps into engaging content will not get us the healthy queue population with the right atittude we wish for Eli.
Sea nailed it pretty well in his posts.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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Sick stuff like Mirror AFK and Sompek 5 demonstrate well enough what rout the wide masses of players in this title take if they “have” to tend to queues.
Well... in general most people will at least try to see how far they can go full out at least once or twice during the Sompek event. But for 14 days total? Multiple characters would cause a burnout.
Mirror AFK though is total BS. If I could I'd lure Terrans over to them and find a way to lose aggro so they attack the AFKer because that is just leeching. The "Sompek 5" at least requires you to PARTICIPATE, even if its just to get to the reward.
Forcing peeps into engaging content will not get us the healthy queue population with the right atittude we wish for Eli.
Sea nailed it pretty well in his posts.
Yes this alone won't help. I'll admit that. The problem of queues is a systemic one with a lot of things working against it. This is just one of them.
Just like the (unpopular) S13 rebalance, I think the rewards should get a balance pass all around. Over-rewarding parts like the Admiralty (which even Borticus admitted that it was over-rewarding) need to be toned down, while under-rewarding areas (like the queues) need to be increased. The fact that people only log into the game just to do this system isn't healthy for the game at all. @spencerb96 released a pretty good video regarding this and other issues of the game too:
The actual STF content and issues regarding that is a whole different discussion.
I'm really liking the points (both for and against my suggestions) here. I think it's a healthy discussion and a good way to source out some potentially good ideas to address a very real issue in the game. There are already some really good alternative suggestions here (such as unique reward drops). Despite the low participation of devs in this forum, I'm pretty sure that they read topics here too. Hopefully we can crowd-source ideas to make the game better.
All your arguments are sound Eli and they can be understood by every gamer around (including me). Sadly I don’t think STO itself is targeted at gamers anymore. I’m afraid the concept of “earning” rewards is patched out on purpose because the target group of this title will only stick around if everything is gained through minimal effort.
Look at those two guys:
The proud foundation of Cryptic’s costumers! They don’t care where their pizza comes from or even how much it costs, they only care if it is delivered on schedule. For as long as the bellies of those two dudes are filled they will happily stay and pay. You really think they would still bother with pizza if they had to bake it themselves? They would simply leave for Burger King before you know it.
All that Cryptic does is aimed at keeping them around and you expect them to play Hive.
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All your arguments are sound Eli and they can be understood by every gamer around (including me). Sadly I don’t think STO itself is targeted at gamers anymore. I’m afraid the concept of “earning” rewards is patched out on purpose because the target group of this title will only stick around if everything is gained through minimal effort.
Not sure I fully agree here.
Yes, by nature.. people will follow the path of 'least resistance.' They will generally flock toward whatever gives them the most for the least amount of effort, but in this case I think the nature of the content we're describing has a lot to do with it.
Queues have been the same thing for as long as anyone can remember. They aren't random in any way, the experience only has the potential to change based on the team you bring in. It might be a little harder, it might be a little easier.. but that's it. We have had the same content in these queues for years, how long did Cryptic expect that to be a sustainable model?
I can only speak for me personally, but while I enjoy running queues a couple times a week, the thought of doing them every single day just seems like a grind that I want no part of. I actually like the current setup because during the week when I don't have a lot of time, I can use things like Admiralty, Duty Officer Assignments, and quick public queues like ISA/CCA to get what I need to keep giving me the feeling I'm moving forward. On my days off and when I have more time available, I run queues mostly with you and the fleet and those I do purely because they are fun. When I run them, I honestly don't care much about the rewards I'm just up for teaming up and playing the game. As much fun as it is though, I wouldn't want to be forced to do it every single day and have no other way of progressing.
My core problem with the initial suggestion is that it by nature suggests that a certain style of play, in this case doing queued content, is the 'right' way and that players should be funneled into that direction. Queues can be fun, some of them are quite fun, but none of them are something I would want to do every single day. Things like Admiralty, DoFFing and even Battle Zones give players alternatives. While I have said time and again that I will always favor variety, it does have the effect of creating options that are considered less desirable then others. In my opinion, the core of the issue is the content itself. Rewards are important sure, but the content also has to be fun. Even something like a random reward at the end or a chance at something special is usually enough. The queues need something that creates that feeling of anticipation when played, some variety, some type of outcome that makes it so it's not exactly the same thing every day.. over and over again.
People will shy away from overly complex or overly difficult content, but they will also shy away from doing the same thing over and over again day in and day out. This is the exact reason I have abstained from the Sompek event.
My core problem with the initial suggestion is that it by nature suggests that a certain style of play, in this case doing queued content
The initial suggestion doesn't really say that. The initial suggestion merely makes STFs a bigger source of Dilithium than anything else in the game.
The Admiralty in my suggestion would still reward Dilithium as it does but in a reduced capacity. Let's face it, the Admiralty is over-rewarding. I do not think anyone objective enough can deny that. Anyone who knows how to maximize the system will be able to get their daily cap from it alone.
Even with a reduced Dilithium reward, the Admiralty can still get you your max daily Dilithium. It'll merely take more missions run.
My core problem with the initial suggestion is that it by nature suggests that a certain style of play, in this case doing queued content
The initial suggestion doesn't really say that. The initial suggestion merely makes STFs a bigger source of Dilithium than anything else in the game.
The Admiralty in my suggestion would still reward Dilithium as it does but in a reduced capacity. Let's face it, the Admiralty is over-rewarding. I do not think anyone objective enough can deny that. Anyone who knows how to maximize the system will be able to get their daily cap from it alone.
Even with a reduced Dilithium reward, the Admiralty can still get you your max daily Dilithium. It'll merely take more missions run.
Even if you run both Tour Of Duty missions daily (Ferengi and Klingon) it still amounts to 60k Dilithium every 10 days. That's still 2k per day under the daily refine cap, it's not that much at all. Admiralty also does not reward any marks for any of the reputation systems. Yes, there will be those that know how to maximize everything and sustain themselves on that alone, but do you believe that applies to the majority of the players? Even if that cap where cut down, people will just move to the next easiest path rather it's Doff'ing, Battle Zones, or just running ISA/CCA/Red Alerts over and over again.
I am totally on your side when it comes to rejuvenating the queues. I respect what you're trying to accomplish here and while we both want the same thing, I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on how to get to the point we both want to reach. I agree that something needs to be done to get the queues jump started again, I just believe that solution lies in the queues themselves and not on other systems.
I honestly think that even something as simple as a random reward at the end could help a lot. You might get as little as a few bonus marks or as much as say.. 1 Master Key. You rotate this reward option from week to week.. maybe one week it's Borg Queues, the next it's the Tzenkethi, etc. Basically just do what the Endeavor system should have done to begin with. People will run these over and over just for the potential of a payoff.
Of course, I would only reward this for Advanced and Elite Queues with Elites having a higher percentage chance at the 'grand prize.'
Even if you run both Tour Of Duty missions daily (Ferengi and Klingon) it still amounts to 60k Dilithium every 10 days. That's still 2k per day under the daily refine cap, it's not that much at all.
Yes, hence it is not really limiting options. 2k Dil to earn elsewhere is very small. As it is right now, you don't have to run anything but Admiralty. Remember that apart from the ToD missions, you also get Dil from the smaller missions in each Admiralty.
Even with the proposed "nerf", Admiralty would still be awarding a lot of Dilithium.
if that cap where cut down, people will just move to the next easiest path rather it's Doff'ing, Battle Zones, or just running ISA/CCA/Red Alerts over and over again.
Hence my suggestion to reward Dil only with Daily Marks boxes (which means you have to run other queues too) and that RAs should lose choice-boxes (it really should've kept the XP bonus and only awarded its appropriate mark).
I honestly think that even something as simple as a random reward at the end could help a lot. You might get as little as a few bonus marks or as much as say.. 1 Master Key. You rotate this reward option from week to week.. maybe one week it's Borg Queues, the next it's the Tzenkethi, etc. Basically just do what the Endeavor system should have done to begin with.
Yeah I like that idea too. I also think that STF rewards should be very good consumables or ultra rare (in terms of drop chance) drops that are tradeable to encourage replays.
A lesson STO's developers have never learned, because they're too busy pushing out monetized micro-transactions; they simply have no pride in the overall product, or at least not enough influence internally to realize it.
It's easy to impute motive (or the lack of it), but unless you're on the actual design and development team, you likely haven't any idea what the pressures are in that workplace. In an F2P game, there will be a lot of emphasis on monetizing content because the game won't run at a loss or at break-even. Ownership expects a certain margin or else the doors are locked and that's the end of it.
Ownership and management makes the "monetizing micro-transactions" decisions, not the team creating content and writing code. (How this eludes people is quite beyond my ability to comprehend.) In the real world of commerce, one produces what one is asked to produce, or one is reminded of the location of the front door and asked to use it. Blaming the "devs" is at best misguided, and at worst insulting. (Why can't we just discuss the situation without including attacks on folks who are just trying to pay the mortgage or rent, and put food on the table, just like the rest of us?)
May I suggest that what the development team has learned is that the community is simply going to yell "more more more now now now!" at the highest possible volume and pitch, making the situation into little more than an ultimate Kobayashi Maru test?
--//--
I tried to read the various walls of text thoroughly, but I might have missed this if someone mentioned it: could it be that the DOff and Admiralty mission rewards are there to support the hideous expense of Fleet holdings?
Yeah I like that idea too. I also think that STF rewards should be very good consumables or ultra rare (in terms of drop chance) drops that are tradeable to encourage replays.
Also a good idea.
I won't lie to you and tell you that I don't think Admiralty rewards are on the high side, I also won't lie to you and tell you that's not why I like Admiralty. It's exactly why I like it.. good rewards for a few mouse clicks, I'll freely admit that. And honestly, I don't want it taken away, that's the truth.
It just feels to me like nerfing it, along with the other proposed changes would be too far for me. But again, it's a fundamental difference in end goal, you want people to be running queues every day, and I simply think that's too much. I want to see people doing queues because they want to, not because they have to. We both agree though that the current state of the queues needs work.
While we may differ, I want to be clear that I respect the motivation behind your proposal and appreciate the friendly exchange of ideas. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers, my proposal isn't perfect either. I'll have to think a little more on your points and see if I can really think of a better alternative. Honestly, it's not an easy problem to solve.
While we may differ, I want to be clear that I respect the motivation behind your proposal and appreciate the friendly exchange of ideas. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers, my proposal isn't perfect either. I'll have to think a little more on your points and see if I can really think of a better alternative. Honestly, it's not an easy problem to solve.
Oh it's the same for me. I respect your opinions and I truly enjoy all the other posts on this thread whether or not they agree with me. I never take anything on the forums personally.
Going back to the OP. I AM A SHIP GUY! I almost got ever ship in the game so having something every few weeks where i can use ships its great and i am glad others can use it too.
But i dont think the admiralty is over preforming, if you remember WAY back in the day you use to get more Dil in the runs (stf Tuesdays anyone?). Elite Bug hunt and turn in contraband, The Dyson sphere use to give out way more as well. Before they were nerft into the ground. It will come for the admiralty as well in time. But with the state of the game i really think it shouldnt. There a massive design problems that should be address soon or we will not have a game.
I want to be running ques but i can not because there are not worth the time or rewards.
Just like the (unpopular) S13 rebalance, I think the rewards should get a balance pass all around. Over-rewarding parts like the Admiralty (which even Borticus admitted that it was over-rewarding) need to be toned down, while under-rewarding areas (like the queues) need to be increased. The fact that people only log into the game just to do this system isn't healthy for the game at all. @spencerb96 released a pretty good video regarding this and other issues of the game too:
The actual STF content and issues regarding that is a whole different discussion.
I just got around to watching this, and I have to say.. most of it is disturbingly accurate. It does however, also highlight another concern with the discussion of nerfing admiralty and that's that I just don't think the player population can take it. They really shot themselves in the foot with the S13 round of nerfs and lost a lot of players because of it. While I'm all for making queues more rewarding, I honestly don't think the game can handle any more nerfs.
I was one of the ones that left with the drop of Season 13, I ended up returning, but I'm still very resentful to the current development staff and I have completely stopped spending as a result. I can only speak for myself here, but speaking as a player who still considers himself to have one foot out the door, a further round of nerfs would likely be my last straw. I want to see queues fixed, I want to see them be more rewarding and I want people to start queuing up, I just can't favor any proposal centered around taking more away from the player base. All they know how to do is take, take, take.. of course Borticus feels it over rewards, all he knows is nerf this and nerf that.
I would much rather see Queues get a boost then everything else take a hit.
I would much rather see Queues get a boost then everything else take a hit.
Yep! Leave admiralty as it is and bring queues in line.
In order to reach the daily refinement cap over admiralty and doffing I need two 3-5 minute log-ins preferably with an interval of approximately 10h in between. That’s 8 minutes for 8k+ on an average.
NTTE takes 2-3 minutes in a good (but not out of this world) team. If all rewards are abstracted into Dil (direct+daily+mark conversion) we should get roughly 3k out of it so theoretically getting to the daily limit over PvE in the same timeframe works on this rare occasion.
NTTE is one of the very few exceptions but it shows that other maps could be brought in line to find a balance here. They should reward better especially at the mark side of it. UAA is another good example of a popular map because getting 280 marks+ starts to get worthwhile when you can do it in a few minutes as we have.
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I would much rather see Queues get a boost then everything else take a hit.
Yep! Leave admiralty as it is and bring queues in line.
In order to reach the daily refinement cap over admiralty and doffing I need two 3-5 minute log-ins preferably with an interval of approximately 10h in between. That’s 8 minutes for 8k+ on an average.
NTTE takes 2-3 minutes in a good (but not out of this world) team. If all rewards are abstracted into Dil (direct+daily+mark conversion) we should get roughly 3k out of it so theoretically getting to the daily limit over PvE in the same timeframe works on this rare occasion.
NTTE is one of the very few exceptions but it shows that other maps could be brought in line to find a balance here. They should reward better especially at the mark side of it. UAA is another good example of a popular map because getting 280 marks+ starts to get worthwhile when you can do it in a few minutes as we have.
All great examples.
It should also be noted that for the majority of players, Admiralty will not be quite as rewarding as it is for you. Admiralty is the closest thing this game has to a 'pay to win' system, even though it's not. Most players don't have the sheer number of ships that you have so it will be much more difficult for them to get that kind of payout for admiralty.
Rewarding queues would be a great place for players like that to go in order to make up the difference.
My core problem with the initial suggestion is that it by nature suggests that a certain style of play, in this case doing queued content
The initial suggestion doesn't really say that. The initial suggestion merely makes STFs a bigger source of Dilithium than anything else in the game.
The Admiralty in my suggestion would still reward Dilithium as it does but in a reduced capacity. Let's face it, the Admiralty is over-rewarding. I do not think anyone objective enough can deny that. Anyone who knows how to maximize the system will be able to get their daily cap from it alone.
Even with a reduced Dilithium reward, the Admiralty can still get you your max daily Dilithium. It'll merely take more missions run.
Some of us don't have all day or multiple hours a day to play queues. I work for a living.
10 hrs a day.
I'm lucky if I have a single hour per night for STO. And that generally goes to contraband turn-ins/doffing on 6 KDF officers, and admiralty/R&D/doffing and contraband on my 6 feds.
Truth be told, I don't even do admiralty anymore. Its not worth the 5-10mins per toon to set up. And the payout if you "set it and forget it" once daily... is a measly 2500-3500 dil.
So I gotta ask OP... what in the world are you doing to max your dil cap with admiralty alone ?? What do you do, sit there and keep setting admiralty project after admiralty project ? As soon as you can ?
Because frankly that's what's its going to take to hit Dil cap with only admiralty..
So I dunno, most people have full time jobs and only have a finite time to be on STO in the evenings, I can assure you. they aren't setting back-back-back admiralty project.
A lot of people don't even have the ship roster necessary for that type of thing.
So, maybe its "you" who are playing the game wrong if you're able to reach dil cap with admiralty alone everyday... Just how much time do you spend on STO a day ?
You think you're the average user ?
I have over 220 ship choices on my main for admiralty. Yet I don't have time to sit on sto all day cycling admiralty at every opportunity.
So maybe in your specific situation its "too easy" or "pays too much". But you're far from the norm in terms of use.
In my situation, the 2500-3500 dil I can make from one round of admiralty a day is not even worth the effort !
You guys did a bang up job begging and pleading for a balance pass that didn't really address TRIBBLE all in the end, and only served to frustrate the general playerbase, and make more players quit. DPS channels have been frikken -DEAD- ever since.
And now, here you guys come again..
Trying to get more activities in the game nerfed.
When will you guys be happy ? When everybody finally says f it and quits the game ? smh.
What a poorly thought out idea OP. I'm sorry if you have all day to shuffle through admiralty, But 90% of us do not !
Leave admiralty alone. There's already been more then enough damage done.
Frankly I don't even think the game is salvageable anymore. And its going to be a slow decline from here on out. Unless you guys keep coming up with these grand ideas, which will only hasten this games demise.
Sometimes I think you guys are actively "trying" to destroy the remaining playerbase. The worst part is, you convince yourself you're doing something in the "best interest of the game." smh. And make threads like this.
It's time for people to give their head a shake. And stop actively trying to sabotage this game with more of their "bright ideas."
Sorry to be harsh, but this type of thinking is really starting to get on my nerves.
So I gotta ask OP... what in the world are you doing to max your dil cap with admiralty alone ?? What do you do, sit there and keep setting admiralty project after admiralty project ? As soon as you can ?
I too have a full time job and work for 10+ hours per day. So this is how I do my admiralty:
Morning before work while having breakfast (I wake up early anyway), slot in missions from Klingon arc. All VR missions I either slot a single shuttle or whatever expendable ship (unless it rewards 1k+ dil).
I run mostly 15-45min missions until I get ToD (which happens most of the time within the first 30mins).
Extra slots I start slotting in 1h+ missions from Ferengi arc with expendable ships unless they pay out 1k+ Dil.
At night, I collect Ferengi and Klingon missions I slotted earlier.
Repeat what I did with Klingon arc.
Usually within an hour I get Ferengi ToD as well.
If I don't get the ToD within the first hour I usually skip that for the next day. I get enough Dil from the minor missions anyway.
Edit: To give you an idea of how much Dil I earn just from the minor missions this way, I've earned up to 5k+ just from one morning round (collected at night). At a bad day, I'd earn 2-3k from each round. That's more than enough to earn more than I refine just from the 2 Admiralty missions.
Nonetheless, if they redo it, they should lower the crazy sci levels on most missions... It gets vexing to see sci 100+ on 9 or more missions - daily..
Also there is no causal relationship between the two as far as I can tell... There is also a time zone factor involved.... Additionally, there are really only two dailies which give full choice rewards, how about they add a few more of those and let people do teams of two, three or even four instead of locking us up the way were are now.. There are so many things Cryptic could do with the STFs before even thinking about thinking about changing another area with its own unique set of design issues especially the the user interface but I digress....
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It's not the lacking rewards that keep me from playing the queues. It's a dead fleet. Before DPS channels and stuff people would just ask in fleet chat, form a group and then do some STF's together. This way I did even the STF's I didn't really like that much.
Nowadays fleet chat is dead. Most people left with DR, some came back but then left again as the social part of the game was gone.
The admirality is actually the only thing that motivates me to log in every now and then. And once logged in I play some STF's. But only on advanced. At least this way I'm sure I'm not wasting my time with some clueless fedbears.
By nerfing admirality I would actually play less STF's, because I wouldn't log in in the first place.
STO is mostly a browsergame for me, with the occasional storyline mission once in a while. And even this content is worse than it once was. Repeating the same bloody mission to complete the set just sucks. Playing an arc and getting a set piece for every mission was much more enjoyable than this repetitive stuff we have now.
Imo nerfing this now will have the same effect as the Delta and season 13. One can argue that those ware neaded too but they still had that effect. What aurigas7 said before is true to me and most of my friends that are still playing, at this point i dont really care (i just nead a bump to move on ) ... but many care, they invested resorces in ships so that they ease up the dil grind ...
Nerfs in this game allways made players pay for criptyc's mistakes ... sacrificing others resorces and work for what one thinks sould be just and desirable was exactly that devs did delta and s13. Before using a hammer try a something smaller i say.
- fix the damn IU interface and programing behind it
- make a pass on all stf's and streamline them, remove timegates
- make stf's rewards more varied
- improve rewards from stf's and make them scale not only dificulty but also map completion time and add some dam optionals that reward players not only take
- add a few "endgame" stf's that are a challange and rewards not only the player but his fleet/armada too ( you can start with sompek and no win scenario )
See what result this gives and then think about nerfs. Many players would pick stfs instead of admirality as at one point you get sick even of admirality. This way there are options and pleople will pick what they want, no one loses. The more you nerf a dieing game the more dead it will become. A few bold and inteligent changes can make this game fun again. Add this over a good expansion like romulan one was and we will get a lively game again ... hopefully
Thats my 2 cents about this topic ...
Sorry but I think this is slightly backwards. Admiralty seems like it was added to the game because of the dead q's, not a contributing factor to them. As the q's have been dead quite some time the admiralty system is an easy fix to ensure people can get resources and login, rather than get frustrated that pug q's for collecting resources don't really pop. Nerfing admiralty won't fix the q's, they're ded jim, they were dead long before admiralty came in.
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Or put another way, getting a random drop feels like winning a game, whereas a currency grind feels like doing work. And spending hard-earned currency on items I don't actually need for anything feels like a waste.
Speaking of RNGesus... he still hates me on lockboxes too. Literally the ONLY ship I've won was a Tarantula... and I've been around since the Cardi box. Granted I haven't been opening them like a madman, but I do open one or two when I can buy keys off the exchange, but for the most part I just buy stuff outright with ECs.
Now if only I can get my hands on the Ithenite outfit... Ratty wants Toga Party.
And elite marks need to stop being inventory items, or at least move into a separate space like R&D materials and regular marks. There are a whole lot of reps now, even with two of them not having elite marks, and that really eats up bank space.
Nerfing Admiralty won't bring people back to the queues. Pruning back the number of queues available at one time might help, probably on some sort of rotation to push people from the handful of popular queues into different ones. Some queues could also use some small tweaks, like muting that guy on Gateway to Gre'thor.
I would also be fine with the idea of having different drops/projects that you need specific items/materials from certain stfs or even difficulties (like normal, advanced, and elite each have a certain item that is specific to that difficulty.). The idea of having specific items that you need for a project that are tied to a specific que or difficulty gives those ques, and difficulties value an appeal for players to run them.
I also like the idea of either having certain stfs that a rep requests you do for bonus rewards, or even a reward box that contains a veriety of rewards, much like the endevor system. Or even just a rotation of stfs that are availible to be done in the lfg system on a weekly or bi-weekly rotation. Both to me would make doing more of the content more appealing an interesting, though I could also see some kind of decay system that causes the rewards you get from running the same stf multiple times to be reduced making the other stfs more appealing an have a better payout.
Where Red alerts are concearned I would love to see them only have the rep marks that corilate to their given enemy being availible, but only after the devs create quite afew more red alerts that use other enemies an have a varied game-play style to them first. I mean to me the delta quad would have been perfect for a Vaadwaur/herald based red alert, even the Tal-shiar with how weak they are could have worked for the New romulan, and so forth. It would also be nice to have afew more ground based battle/adventure-zones, but I do believe we might have a new one coming.
Reward 33 Marks. You bet I won't be queuing up for this mission again. 33 marks for an Elite.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
There are ALOT of newer games that are one time buy or free to play that are way more interesting, less costly and less grindly (or were grind is actualy fun). Devs took the easy way and made this game about the ships and lock boxes cuz people payed. Now same people got bored of playing same content over and over again with no endgame and no chalanging content and moved to other games. In this game curency costs quite alot in real money. If you want to grind it you have to spend hours everyday doing other things that stf's as they don't reward you enough.
The inability of the devs to have a good balance in the game is another problem ... people don't wanna see their build constantly ruined ...
The moneygrab from last 5 or so months unbalanced the sto economy in a considerable way (ask the trading channel guys) ...
Instead of nerfs i sugest more options. Increase the rewards and make the stf's more streamlined and fun. I want to play stf's but after repeating all of then hundreats of times i am bored. Most of the new ones are very long, timegated and utterry not fun.
Forcing players to replay what they got bored in the firstplace is wrong. Is the same thing cryptic does with episodes ...
I love teamed PvE and public PvE in particular. There were really times where I wished cryptic would remove every splinter of Dil everywhere in game besides queues to get peeps to play it. Problem is it would not work out the way! Sick stuff like Mirror AFK and Sompek 5 demonstrate well enough what rout the wide masses of players in this title take if they “have” to tend to queues. Removing Dil from admiralty and/or elsewhere would at best force peeps into DPS channels and not into public matches. They are of no use to me in there.
What this really boils down to is that players either like to play queues or they don’t! Those of us who do will utilize every means (including admiralty we need for alts) to do so as best as possible and those who don’t will utilize every means to avoid them as best as possible.
Forcing peeps into engaging content will not get us the healthy queue population with the right atittude we wish for Eli.
Sea nailed it pretty well in his posts.
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Well... in general most people will at least try to see how far they can go full out at least once or twice during the Sompek event. But for 14 days total? Multiple characters would cause a burnout.
Mirror AFK though is total BS. If I could I'd lure Terrans over to them and find a way to lose aggro so they attack the AFKer because that is just leeching. The "Sompek 5" at least requires you to PARTICIPATE, even if its just to get to the reward.
This is indeed a volatile topic, and is the reason why I put it up in the first place. No one would dare talk about it in a public forum like this.
Yes this alone won't help. I'll admit that. The problem of queues is a systemic one with a lot of things working against it. This is just one of them.
Just like the (unpopular) S13 rebalance, I think the rewards should get a balance pass all around. Over-rewarding parts like the Admiralty (which even Borticus admitted that it was over-rewarding) need to be toned down, while under-rewarding areas (like the queues) need to be increased. The fact that people only log into the game just to do this system isn't healthy for the game at all. @spencerb96 released a pretty good video regarding this and other issues of the game too:
The actual STF content and issues regarding that is a whole different discussion.
I'm really liking the points (both for and against my suggestions) here. I think it's a healthy discussion and a good way to source out some potentially good ideas to address a very real issue in the game. There are already some really good alternative suggestions here (such as unique reward drops). Despite the low participation of devs in this forum, I'm pretty sure that they read topics here too. Hopefully we can crowd-source ideas to make the game better.
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Look at those two guys:
The proud foundation of Cryptic’s costumers! They don’t care where their pizza comes from or even how much it costs, they only care if it is delivered on schedule. For as long as the bellies of those two dudes are filled they will happily stay and pay. You really think they would still bother with pizza if they had to bake it themselves? They would simply leave for Burger King before you know it.
All that Cryptic does is aimed at keeping them around and you expect them to play Hive.
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Not sure I fully agree here.
Yes, by nature.. people will follow the path of 'least resistance.' They will generally flock toward whatever gives them the most for the least amount of effort, but in this case I think the nature of the content we're describing has a lot to do with it.
Queues have been the same thing for as long as anyone can remember. They aren't random in any way, the experience only has the potential to change based on the team you bring in. It might be a little harder, it might be a little easier.. but that's it. We have had the same content in these queues for years, how long did Cryptic expect that to be a sustainable model?
I can only speak for me personally, but while I enjoy running queues a couple times a week, the thought of doing them every single day just seems like a grind that I want no part of. I actually like the current setup because during the week when I don't have a lot of time, I can use things like Admiralty, Duty Officer Assignments, and quick public queues like ISA/CCA to get what I need to keep giving me the feeling I'm moving forward. On my days off and when I have more time available, I run queues mostly with you and the fleet and those I do purely because they are fun. When I run them, I honestly don't care much about the rewards I'm just up for teaming up and playing the game. As much fun as it is though, I wouldn't want to be forced to do it every single day and have no other way of progressing.
My core problem with the initial suggestion is that it by nature suggests that a certain style of play, in this case doing queued content, is the 'right' way and that players should be funneled into that direction. Queues can be fun, some of them are quite fun, but none of them are something I would want to do every single day. Things like Admiralty, DoFFing and even Battle Zones give players alternatives. While I have said time and again that I will always favor variety, it does have the effect of creating options that are considered less desirable then others. In my opinion, the core of the issue is the content itself. Rewards are important sure, but the content also has to be fun. Even something like a random reward at the end or a chance at something special is usually enough. The queues need something that creates that feeling of anticipation when played, some variety, some type of outcome that makes it so it's not exactly the same thing every day.. over and over again.
People will shy away from overly complex or overly difficult content, but they will also shy away from doing the same thing over and over again day in and day out. This is the exact reason I have abstained from the Sompek event.
The initial suggestion doesn't really say that. The initial suggestion merely makes STFs a bigger source of Dilithium than anything else in the game.
The Admiralty in my suggestion would still reward Dilithium as it does but in a reduced capacity. Let's face it, the Admiralty is over-rewarding. I do not think anyone objective enough can deny that. Anyone who knows how to maximize the system will be able to get their daily cap from it alone.
Even with a reduced Dilithium reward, the Admiralty can still get you your max daily Dilithium. It'll merely take more missions run.
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Even if you run both Tour Of Duty missions daily (Ferengi and Klingon) it still amounts to 60k Dilithium every 10 days. That's still 2k per day under the daily refine cap, it's not that much at all. Admiralty also does not reward any marks for any of the reputation systems. Yes, there will be those that know how to maximize everything and sustain themselves on that alone, but do you believe that applies to the majority of the players? Even if that cap where cut down, people will just move to the next easiest path rather it's Doff'ing, Battle Zones, or just running ISA/CCA/Red Alerts over and over again.
I am totally on your side when it comes to rejuvenating the queues. I respect what you're trying to accomplish here and while we both want the same thing, I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on how to get to the point we both want to reach. I agree that something needs to be done to get the queues jump started again, I just believe that solution lies in the queues themselves and not on other systems.
I honestly think that even something as simple as a random reward at the end could help a lot. You might get as little as a few bonus marks or as much as say.. 1 Master Key. You rotate this reward option from week to week.. maybe one week it's Borg Queues, the next it's the Tzenkethi, etc. Basically just do what the Endeavor system should have done to begin with. People will run these over and over just for the potential of a payoff.
Of course, I would only reward this for Advanced and Elite Queues with Elites having a higher percentage chance at the 'grand prize.'
Yes, hence it is not really limiting options. 2k Dil to earn elsewhere is very small. As it is right now, you don't have to run anything but Admiralty. Remember that apart from the ToD missions, you also get Dil from the smaller missions in each Admiralty.
Even with the proposed "nerf", Admiralty would still be awarding a lot of Dilithium.
Which is a good thing IMO.
Hence my suggestion to reward Dil only with Daily Marks boxes (which means you have to run other queues too) and that RAs should lose choice-boxes (it really should've kept the XP bonus and only awarded its appropriate mark).
You said it yourself, players will flock to the easiest systems. There is no easier system than a browser game wrapped in an MMO.
Yeah I like that idea too. I also think that STF rewards should be very good consumables or ultra rare (in terms of drop chance) drops that are tradeable to encourage replays.
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It's easy to impute motive (or the lack of it), but unless you're on the actual design and development team, you likely haven't any idea what the pressures are in that workplace. In an F2P game, there will be a lot of emphasis on monetizing content because the game won't run at a loss or at break-even. Ownership expects a certain margin or else the doors are locked and that's the end of it.
Ownership and management makes the "monetizing micro-transactions" decisions, not the team creating content and writing code. (How this eludes people is quite beyond my ability to comprehend.) In the real world of commerce, one produces what one is asked to produce, or one is reminded of the location of the front door and asked to use it. Blaming the "devs" is at best misguided, and at worst insulting. (Why can't we just discuss the situation without including attacks on folks who are just trying to pay the mortgage or rent, and put food on the table, just like the rest of us?)
May I suggest that what the development team has learned is that the community is simply going to yell "more more more now now now!" at the highest possible volume and pitch, making the situation into little more than an ultimate Kobayashi Maru test?
I tried to read the various walls of text thoroughly, but I might have missed this if someone mentioned it: could it be that the DOff and Admiralty mission rewards are there to support the hideous expense of Fleet holdings?
Also a good idea.
I won't lie to you and tell you that I don't think Admiralty rewards are on the high side, I also won't lie to you and tell you that's not why I like Admiralty. It's exactly why I like it.. good rewards for a few mouse clicks, I'll freely admit that. And honestly, I don't want it taken away, that's the truth.
It just feels to me like nerfing it, along with the other proposed changes would be too far for me. But again, it's a fundamental difference in end goal, you want people to be running queues every day, and I simply think that's too much. I want to see people doing queues because they want to, not because they have to. We both agree though that the current state of the queues needs work.
While we may differ, I want to be clear that I respect the motivation behind your proposal and appreciate the friendly exchange of ideas. I'll admit, I don't have all the answers, my proposal isn't perfect either. I'll have to think a little more on your points and see if I can really think of a better alternative. Honestly, it's not an easy problem to solve.
Oh it's the same for me. I respect your opinions and I truly enjoy all the other posts on this thread whether or not they agree with me. I never take anything on the forums personally.
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But i dont think the admiralty is over preforming, if you remember WAY back in the day you use to get more Dil in the runs (stf Tuesdays anyone?). Elite Bug hunt and turn in contraband, The Dyson sphere use to give out way more as well. Before they were nerft into the ground. It will come for the admiralty as well in time. But with the state of the game i really think it shouldnt. There a massive design problems that should be address soon or we will not have a game.
I want to be running ques but i can not because there are not worth the time or rewards.
I just got around to watching this, and I have to say.. most of it is disturbingly accurate. It does however, also highlight another concern with the discussion of nerfing admiralty and that's that I just don't think the player population can take it. They really shot themselves in the foot with the S13 round of nerfs and lost a lot of players because of it. While I'm all for making queues more rewarding, I honestly don't think the game can handle any more nerfs.
I was one of the ones that left with the drop of Season 13, I ended up returning, but I'm still very resentful to the current development staff and I have completely stopped spending as a result. I can only speak for myself here, but speaking as a player who still considers himself to have one foot out the door, a further round of nerfs would likely be my last straw. I want to see queues fixed, I want to see them be more rewarding and I want people to start queuing up, I just can't favor any proposal centered around taking more away from the player base. All they know how to do is take, take, take.. of course Borticus feels it over rewards, all he knows is nerf this and nerf that.
I would much rather see Queues get a boost then everything else take a hit.
Yep! Leave admiralty as it is and bring queues in line.
In order to reach the daily refinement cap over admiralty and doffing I need two 3-5 minute log-ins preferably with an interval of approximately 10h in between. That’s 8 minutes for 8k+ on an average.
NTTE takes 2-3 minutes in a good (but not out of this world) team. If all rewards are abstracted into Dil (direct+daily+mark conversion) we should get roughly 3k out of it so theoretically getting to the daily limit over PvE in the same timeframe works on this rare occasion.
NTTE is one of the very few exceptions but it shows that other maps could be brought in line to find a balance here. They should reward better especially at the mark side of it. UAA is another good example of a popular map because getting 280 marks+ starts to get worthwhile when you can do it in a few minutes as we have.
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All great examples.
It should also be noted that for the majority of players, Admiralty will not be quite as rewarding as it is for you. Admiralty is the closest thing this game has to a 'pay to win' system, even though it's not. Most players don't have the sheer number of ships that you have so it will be much more difficult for them to get that kind of payout for admiralty.
Rewarding queues would be a great place for players like that to go in order to make up the difference.
Some of us don't have all day or multiple hours a day to play queues. I work for a living.
10 hrs a day.
I'm lucky if I have a single hour per night for STO. And that generally goes to contraband turn-ins/doffing on 6 KDF officers, and admiralty/R&D/doffing and contraband on my 6 feds.
Truth be told, I don't even do admiralty anymore. Its not worth the 5-10mins per toon to set up. And the payout if you "set it and forget it" once daily... is a measly 2500-3500 dil.
So I gotta ask OP... what in the world are you doing to max your dil cap with admiralty alone ?? What do you do, sit there and keep setting admiralty project after admiralty project ? As soon as you can ?
Because frankly that's what's its going to take to hit Dil cap with only admiralty..
So I dunno, most people have full time jobs and only have a finite time to be on STO in the evenings, I can assure you. they aren't setting back-back-back admiralty project.
A lot of people don't even have the ship roster necessary for that type of thing.
So, maybe its "you" who are playing the game wrong if you're able to reach dil cap with admiralty alone everyday... Just how much time do you spend on STO a day ?
You think you're the average user ?
I have over 220 ship choices on my main for admiralty. Yet I don't have time to sit on sto all day cycling admiralty at every opportunity.
So maybe in your specific situation its "too easy" or "pays too much". But you're far from the norm in terms of use.
In my situation, the 2500-3500 dil I can make from one round of admiralty a day is not even worth the effort !
You guys did a bang up job begging and pleading for a balance pass that didn't really address TRIBBLE all in the end, and only served to frustrate the general playerbase, and make more players quit. DPS channels have been frikken -DEAD- ever since.
And now, here you guys come again..
Trying to get more activities in the game nerfed.
When will you guys be happy ? When everybody finally says f it and quits the game ? smh.
What a poorly thought out idea OP. I'm sorry if you have all day to shuffle through admiralty, But 90% of us do not !
Leave admiralty alone. There's already been more then enough damage done.
Frankly I don't even think the game is salvageable anymore. And its going to be a slow decline from here on out. Unless you guys keep coming up with these grand ideas, which will only hasten this games demise.
Sometimes I think you guys are actively "trying" to destroy the remaining playerbase. The worst part is, you convince yourself you're doing something in the "best interest of the game." smh. And make threads like this.
It's time for people to give their head a shake. And stop actively trying to sabotage this game with more of their "bright ideas."
Sorry to be harsh, but this type of thinking is really starting to get on my nerves.
I too have a full time job and work for 10+ hours per day. So this is how I do my admiralty:
Edit: To give you an idea of how much Dil I earn just from the minor missions this way, I've earned up to 5k+ just from one morning round (collected at night). At a bad day, I'd earn 2-3k from each round. That's more than enough to earn more than I refine just from the 2 Admiralty missions.
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Nonetheless, if they redo it, they should lower the crazy sci levels on most missions... It gets vexing to see sci 100+ on 9 or more missions - daily..
Also there is no causal relationship between the two as far as I can tell... There is also a time zone factor involved.... Additionally, there are really only two dailies which give full choice rewards, how about they add a few more of those and let people do teams of two, three or even four instead of locking us up the way were are now.. There are so many things Cryptic could do with the STFs before even thinking about thinking about changing another area with its own unique set of design issues especially the the user interface but I digress....
ingame: @.Spartan
Original Cryptic Forum Name: Spartan (member #124)
The Glorious, Kirk’s Protegè
Nowadays fleet chat is dead. Most people left with DR, some came back but then left again as the social part of the game was gone.
The admirality is actually the only thing that motivates me to log in every now and then. And once logged in I play some STF's. But only on advanced. At least this way I'm sure I'm not wasting my time with some clueless fedbears.
By nerfing admirality I would actually play less STF's, because I wouldn't log in in the first place.
STO is mostly a browsergame for me, with the occasional storyline mission once in a while. And even this content is worse than it once was. Repeating the same bloody mission to complete the set just sucks. Playing an arc and getting a set piece for every mission was much more enjoyable than this repetitive stuff we have now.
Nerfs in this game allways made players pay for criptyc's mistakes ... sacrificing others resorces and work for what one thinks sould be just and desirable was exactly that devs did delta and s13. Before using a hammer try a something smaller i say.
- fix the damn IU interface and programing behind it
- make a pass on all stf's and streamline them, remove timegates
- make stf's rewards more varied
- improve rewards from stf's and make them scale not only dificulty but also map completion time and add some dam optionals that reward players not only take
- add a few "endgame" stf's that are a challange and rewards not only the player but his fleet/armada too ( you can start with sompek and no win scenario )
See what result this gives and then think about nerfs. Many players would pick stfs instead of admirality as at one point you get sick even of admirality. This way there are options and pleople will pick what they want, no one loses. The more you nerf a dieing game the more dead it will become. A few bold and inteligent changes can make this game fun again. Add this over a good expansion like romulan one was and we will get a lively game again ... hopefully
Thats my 2 cents about this topic ...