Where are you finding these supposed leaks? I check all Trek news outlets I can find on a daily basis and have seen absokutely nothing about any conflict between Moonves and Fuller, nor anythong whatsoever about "ignoring canon", though to be honest if they did ignore canon it wouldn't bother me in the slightest as some people place far too much importance on something the writers never gave a half a c.r.a.p. about anyway.
Bear in mind, I do not endorse any part of this video as authentic because I have no way of knowing for certain, but given all the delays and the way corporate suits tend to behave, it makes more sense than the official story.
Get creative for Prophets' sake, the Federation is more than just humans, and humans are more than just Caucasians with mismatched chromosomes.
Doesn't Star Trek: Discovery take place 10 years before TOS? Having a non-human Starfleet Captain in that setting would feel weird considering that Starfleet crews in the TV series have been predominately human. You can't have Starfleet crews with a bunch of aliens, then have a Starfleet crew 10 years later with a token alien.
However, it feels like Star Trek: Discovery will not have a main crew, but will focus on a number of crews with maybe a couple of alien crews.
Point of order, they canonically had an entirely Vulcan crew in TOS on USS Intrepid.
There's some aliens I don't expect to see (Bajorans, for example: according to the EU they weren't contacted until 2271, and in even in canon they seem not ), but it's the United Federation of Planets, not United Federation of Humans. I'm more inclined to believe we didn't see many alien crew members purely for budget reasons, the same reason the Klingons didn't have ridges and the Romulans wore those goofy helmets instead of making a bunch of ears for them. Space opera is an expensive genre.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There's really nothing surprising about military functionalities being male dominated. It's simple biology: Males are used to do dangerously unsafe things because males are biologically expendable. If a tribe loses half its females, it's in trouble. If a tribe loses half its males, its ability to produce new tribe members is not affected.
It's a good thing Starfleet isn't a military or male dominated then isn't it?
Also, we've got to the point in society where we have complete control over our population and reproduction down to the genetic level (implementation varies obviously) so biological arguments are meaningless.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
yes thas true in real life i know but im talking about ficitonal star trek universe where the human race is more evolved.
Really. More evolved you say?
Does that mean males carry babies now? Because point blank, here's what's going on:
If you have a war and win, but lose 70% of your males, the culture goes on.
If you have a war and win, but lose 70% of your females, the culture is DEAD.
The military is populated chiefly by males not because they're more belligerent, but because they are society's expendables. This is why even the most egalitarian-minded men object to women in frontline combat roles - by risking your tribe's breeders, you have FAILED in your duties as a male. This isn't even cultural bias... we're talking base level biological imperative.
Until Star Trek comes out and says they run off babies en mass with total independence from the biological constraints humanity has labored under since sexual reproduction became a thing on our favorite mudball, then males are always going to numerically dominate professions were "risk is our business". And where you have numerical dominance, you get cultural dominance. Most captains of armed vessels will be male.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
all this whining about the captain who may not even make it out the first episode
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I'm all for it. The choice for the role is a huge win for the Star Trek Universe. He is a great actor and I welcome him. He is the reason I will watch the new series now.
Fleet Admiral of the U.S.S. ATTILA KHAN-CDA (NX-921911).
@nikeix: Your statement boils down to "stay in the kitchen". To borrow a line from Tolkien, "Those without swords can still die upon them."
HUMAN men dominate combat roles because they ARE statistically bigger, stronger, and more belligerent, and speaking as an "egalitarian-minded man", I have zero problem with letting women into any and all combat roles provided they can meet the same physical fitness requirements as male applicants. Starfleet is not primarily an infantry service.
@steaen: Lorca is a surname of Spanish origin, referring to the municipality of Lorca in Murcia. He's 99% likely to be human.
@valoreah: I already explained my answer to that twice on the first page, I have no interest in repeating myself.
Post edited by starswordc on
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Starswordc, the more I read your ignorant posts the more racist I think you are. Who really cares if the new captain is white, black, native American, asian, or anything else. Get over it snowflake.
Fleet Admiral of the U.S.S. ATTILA KHAN-CDA (NX-921911).
@steaen: Lorca is a surname of Spanish origin, referring to the municipality of Lorca in Murcia. He's 99% likely to be human.
What if he's only part human?
Winning.
It's what I do. It's what I just did. It's what I'm about to do again. It's being undisputed emperor of an empire that cannot be disproved as the most powerful intergalactic empire in the entire universe; I always win, and everything I've won will definitely be won again... by me. It's my signature move, and thus, it's my signature. Problem, Sonic? Yeah, I mean you, Sonic, because you're being beat up, despite your being super. You can't even hit Shadow back, can you? Nope, he's too strong for you. Of course, I'm not Shadow, I'm the Super Emerald fueled fox that's pulling the strings; trust me, the fight would only be a few frames long if I were in it personally. Oh, and here's something for all you guys thinking you can win Last Post Wins 3.0; trust me, I'll be around a long while after the sun has already consumed the Earth while I sit out with the forum servers on Titan. Yes, I mean Titan... that comparatively little moon orbiting Saturn. It's a nice little place in a version of our solar system where the sun is a lot bigger. I mean, Mars will last longer than your precious Earth, but by then, it'll be one hot planet... and I figure Saturn's moon will be about the right temperate for a super-powered warlord. Oh, and trust me, I packed a lot of rings, and I mean a lot. Trillions, in fact, so I'll never run out of rings to power my super form. Besides, if I start to run out, I can just chaos control more rings into my reach. It's quite easy, really. You should try it. Granted, you'll never have the 7 Super Emeralds that I have in my possession, nor the Master Emerald that I've got hidden away somewhere... absorbed into my body thanks to Sonic logic, but whatever. I win. Again. I'm not kidding, either. Just check Last Post Wins, and if the last post isn't mine, it soon will be. Very, very soon. You can count on it. Seriously. By the way, if you're wondering, there's a really great Super Tails sprite sheet out there... somewhere... by some guy named shadow_91. These sprites are really great. Like, really good. Quality. Just like what I like to see in a sprite sheet. Also, credit to Joe T.E., his Sonic Battle style Super Sonic sprites have a great palette for a Super Sonic being beat up by Super Shadow, who's palette is from a Super Shadow sheet of unknown origin, but it turns out they were "borrowed" from a better sheet made by a certain Domenico. Oh, and the gif is actually a custom made super version of a similar gif, of which there are only 3 or 4 copies to be found by Google, and even then, evidently of an unknown source. Yep, it's one of those things. Stuff people have made, spread around, only for it to vanish and you to be the only person who still has a copy, not even knowing where it came from... like, literally at all. Oh, and anyone notice that Shadow's little chaos snap blast thingies are red and blue now? Yeah, I changed it. Problem, fans of purple? Yeah, I know you got a problem with that one, but you can just deal with it. After all, according to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly... alright, alright, I'll spare you the entire Bee Movie script, just Google it if you want. By the way, ever wonder how your characters would've ended up if they evolved in another universe? Yeah, that. Think about it. Ok, so you probably didn't bother reading up to here, but whatever, here's a surprise for you guys over at ESD (RP) who were crazy enough to read this: Emperor Nat of the mcfreakin' Terran Empire is gonna be right all along! The universe is gonna go BOOM! *Thumbs up to the insanity*
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
@nikeix: Your statement boils down to "stay in the kitchen". To borrow a line from Tolkien, "Those without swords can still die upon them."
Not at all. This planet is TEEMING with humans. Personally, I've got no objection putting women were they can die in droves just like males, but that's cold logic overriding a LOT of very successful hard coding. But it's useful to understand -why- there's a inescapable unease at the concept. People like to think we're so above having 'instincts'.
HUMAN men dominate combat roles because they ARE statistically bigger, stronger, and more belligerent, and speaking as an "egalitarian-minded man", I have zero problem with letting women into any and all combat roles provided they can meet the same physical fitness requirements as male applicants. Starfleet is not primarily an infantry service.
Rifles have made male strength largely superfluous for more than a century. It ain't some grand disparity in lethality that's kept the transition moving along at a snails pace. But sure, we can write criteria that would largely bar them from serving. It's funny who exactly is begin asked to set those criteria though. It's just a wee bit like gerrymandering, really .
@nikeix Please do not go the route to reason centuries of oppression and sexism with "instincts". The day when humans were still instinct driven societies could not afford leaving anyone "at home". The picture of weak women needing protection came with the rise of the patriarchy/organized religion. It's calculated but has nothing to do with "breeding potential" or some other social-darwinian fantasies people come up with.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The argument that women must be protected in order to ensure survival of the species supposes that the majority of women will find themselves in harm's way unless specifically protected. Unless I missed some pretty important scenes in Trek, the majority of the humans in the Fleet aren't women, nor are the women in the Fleet the majority of the females of the species. Even if, through some cataclysm, every single starship in existence should abruptly be destroyed, there would still be a more-than-minimal breeding population of Human females on Earth - and quite likely on all those worlds Earth colonized later.
What -- beyond pure ego -- makes you think humans aren't instinct driven creatures Right. Now? Those instincts haven't gone away, and the reality is most people are so oblivious (or resentful) of the idea we have instinctive behaviors, they never even consider what those instincts actually are or that they might want to consciously resist them.
Just look at the massive upswing in racism and hate crimes in the last few weeks. That's some bad old code on parade right there, instincts being told that the intellectual reasons to suppress them just aren't required in the new cultural environment. And in keeping with the "Those without swords can still die upon them" motif, pretending it's not happening or that people can't possibly be that awful to one another over something as insignificant as eye shape or skin color or favorite deity is not going to keep you from being victimized for it. The veneer of 'civilization' is very, very thin and the lake of primordial soup beneath it is dreadfully deep.
The argument that women must be protected in order to ensure survival of the species supposes that the majority of women will find themselves in harm's way unless specifically protected. Unless I missed some pretty important scenes in Trek, the majority of the humans in the Fleet aren't women, nor are the women in the Fleet the majority of the females of the species. Even if, through some cataclysm, every single starship in existence should abruptly be destroyed, there would still be a more-than-minimal breeding population of Human females on Earth - and quite likely on all those worlds Earth colonized later.
The ability of most hairless river monkeys (that's us by the way) to even imagine concerns larger than line of sight are pretty limited. It doesn't matter there's a million women safe over the hill, the issue is that there's even one in danger right here, right now. Yeah, its not rational, but hairless river moneys by and large aren't rational. Even less so when you apply the pressure of mortal danger. If rationality prevailed in all battles, PTSD wouldn't be a thing.
Throughout history there have been cultures where men and women were equals, the Celtic and Germanic tribes in Europe for examples. They had female warriors fighting alongside the men, Boudicca is a good example.
The Spartans also considered women equal to men as they were just as tough.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
of course they were tough - spartan training methods make even the most rigorous and brutal of military regimens today look like girl scout training
My point is even Spartan women could match the men, they were expected to fight alongside the men if their city was under attack. They even did sports like wrestling and were toughened and conditioned from birth not to be weak.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
What -- beyond pure ego -- makes you think humans aren't instinct driven creatures Right. Now? Those instincts haven't gone away, and the reality is most people are so oblivious (or resentful) of the idea we have instinctive behaviors, they never even consider what those instincts actually are or that they might want to consciously resist them.(...)
Lets just say I do take a personal issue with misusing biology and behavioral studies to justify opression. Your theory is social-darwinism at it's finest and lacks real reason. The establishment of the patriarchy and systematic opression of women has nothing to do with instincts but calculated social molding by elites. Nobody denies that there are primal instincts left in humans but neither sexism nor current paranoia and xenophobia are "instinct driven", it is calculated, incited fear that might play on certain instincts but to assume that the patriarchy and whatever world populists paint ina ddition is somehow akin to a "natural state" is proposterous.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Nike, part of what marks us as not merely sentient but sapient is that while we have instinctive drives, we can override them. We don't have to let instinct shape our every behavior.
And I'm very sorry for your apparently limited imagination - but you shouldn't assume that just because your vision is limited by what you can see, this must of necessity apply to everyone else as well. Did it do so, modern civilization would not even be possible. (Oh, by the way, that "river monkey" hypothesis is both disproved and very silly. We aren't relatively hairless because our ancestors swam a lot - that would have resulted in hair loss everywhere, as in cetaceans and hippopotami, rather than over the torso and limbs but not the head or genitalia. It's neoteny, an adaptation necessary in order for creatures with brains as large as ours to be born in the first place - the newborn human is not yet finished developing, and the brain will continue to develop for quite some time after birth. If it were in proportion to the adult brain/body size, the head would never pass through the birth canal. As it is, it's a pretty close-run thing; my son had to be born via C-section because his head got stuck.)
There's really nothing surprising about military functionalities being male dominated. It's simple biology: Males are used to do dangerously unsafe things because males are biologically expendable. If a tribe loses half its females, it's in trouble. If a tribe loses half its males, its ability to produce new tribe members is not affected.
Also, we've got to the point in society where we have complete control over our population and reproduction down to the genetic level (implementation varies obviously) so biological arguments are meaningless.
do you understand the implications of the dystopia you just described? Let lay it out for you.
your population is Controlled. right down to, if you're right, the molecular biology level. "This couple may breed, that one may not, but we're going to preselect for traits society (the government) feels are desirable."
Keep in mind:Governments tend to prefer their subjects slightly dim and very docile and submissive, easily controlled, and obedient, and controlling all aspects of reproduction sure as hell would both require, and encourage that state of affairs.
does that sound to you like the United Federation of Planets in Kirk's day, or Sisko, or Picard?
do you really feel that's desirable?
Are you incapable of reading? I said we have 'control over' not that it 'is controlled'. Fixing defects and specifying sex of babies is not the government (or anyone else) telling you how you should breed. The ability to fix problems (like say all your women were wiped out) by specifying the sex of a baby is called an emergency situation no different to, say intentionally paralysing a patient by removing a tumour from their spinal column. What part of that makes you think that I mean the government is now forcefully moving all citizens into automated facilities to be forcefully paralysed?
I'm assuming you don't live naked in a tree and eat your food raw? If not then grow up and learn to read. @nikeix
Wars are fought with technology, in Star Trek even more than now.
Phaser rifles don't weigh any thing, you can wave them around one handed like the hollow plastic props they are. What good is a biological weight advantage going to net you there?
Transporters beam you to within a a metre of where the fighting will be, what good is your natural run speed there?
Pills can regrow kidneys and you can be inoculated against radiation poising and there's a blood transfusion hat can cure death. What good is your superior stamina now?
The average woman now is far stronger and fitter than the average woman 30 years ago. There's far more women in military roles than there was 10 years ago.
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
Lets just say I do take a personal issue with misusing biology and behavioral studies to justify opression. Your theory is social-darwinism at it's finest and lacks real reason. The establishment of the patriarchy and systematic opression of women has nothing to do with instincts but calculated social molding by elites. Nobody denies that there are primal instincts left in humans but neither sexism nor current paranoia and xenophobia are "instinct driven", it is calculated, incited fear that might play on certain instincts but to assume that the patriarchy and whatever world populists paint ina ddition is somehow akin to a "natural state" is preposterous.
I don't know, it'd seem obvious that any form of patriarchy is an attempt to establish control over the breeding stock. You control the female you control the lineage and blood lines. That sort of thing is very important to tribal societies but also to 'civilisation'. I'm not saying there's nothing else at work but the core of it seems to be an animistic instinct.
Paranoia and xenophobia are currently different as 'the other' is an instinct but the paranoia is being manufactured to draw on this for ideological ends. Sexism is just kinda there, there's not really any advantage for it, there's just not really a drive to end it. It's not like (in the West anyway) you can use women as 'the other' in the same way you can with minority ethnicities, races, or orientations.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Wars are fought with technology, in Star Trek even more than now.
Phaser rifles don't weigh any thing, you can wave them around one handed like the hollow plastic props they are. What good is a biological weight advantage going to net you there?
Transporters beam you to within a a metre of where the fighting will be, what good is your natural run speed there?
Pills can regrow kidneys and you can be inoculated against radiation poising and there's a blood transfusion hat can cure death. What good is your superior stamina now?
The average woman now is far stronger and fitter than the average woman 30 years ago. There's far more women in military roles than there was 10 years ago.
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
Given enough time and I think women will be more deadly on the battlefield than men.
Wars are fought with technology, in Star Trek even more than now.
Phaser rifles don't weigh any thing, you can wave them around one handed like the hollow plastic props they are. What good is a biological weight advantage going to net you there?
Transporters beam you to within a a metre of where the fighting will be, what good is your natural run speed there?
Pills can regrow kidneys and you can be inoculated against radiation poising and there's a blood transfusion hat can cure death. What good is your superior stamina now?
The average woman now is far stronger and fitter than the average woman 30 years ago. There's far more women in military roles than there was 10 years ago.
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
Given enough time and I think women will be more deadly on the battlefield than men.
they already are, because people have always underestimated them and CONTINUE underestimating them even today, and probably will for centuries to come
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
(..)(note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
(...)
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
I support all of those things in Star Trek... When Star Trek actually says it. For the most part its presented humans/the Federation as a people absolutely terrified of self-alteration and auto-evolution. You don't get to have it both ways. Jeordi being ostracized as a cyborg (No-no, its ok. He was born blind. He didn't volunteer for it like a filthy cutter...) and Eugenics being twice as dirty a word, and then say "oh, but we're just so culturally enlightened!"
You're so right its not our world - in many, many respects its vastly more primitive. Certainly its shockingly simplistic. And while they dabble in societal fun-house mirrors, on the whole they stay far, far away from real world questions of biotech and economic ethics.
Wars are fought with technology, in Star Trek even more than now.
Phaser rifles don't weigh any thing, you can wave them around one handed like the hollow plastic props they are. What good is a biological weight advantage going to net you there?
Transporters beam you to within a a metre of where the fighting will be, what good is your natural run speed there?
Pills can regrow kidneys and you can be inoculated against radiation poising and there's a blood transfusion hat can cure death. What good is your superior stamina now?
The average woman now is far stronger and fitter than the average woman 30 years ago. There's far more women in military roles than there was 10 years ago.
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
Given enough time and I think women will be more deadly on the battlefield than men.
they already are, because people have always underestimated them and CONTINUE underestimating them even today, and probably will for centuries to come
Mainly by people who don't understand the word 'average'.
(..)(note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
(...)
Well, not unless you really want to. The reptilian overlords do need some form of entertainment.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
Point of order, they canonically had an entirely Vulcan crew in TOS on USS Intrepid.
There's some aliens I don't expect to see (Bajorans, for example: according to the EU they weren't contacted until 2271, and in even in canon they seem not ), but it's the United Federation of Planets, not United Federation of Humans. I'm more inclined to believe we didn't see many alien crew members purely for budget reasons, the same reason the Klingons didn't have ridges and the Romulans wore those goofy helmets instead of making a bunch of ears for them. Space opera is an expensive genre.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It's a good thing Starfleet isn't a military or male dominated then isn't it?
Also, we've got to the point in society where we have complete control over our population and reproduction down to the genetic level (implementation varies obviously) so biological arguments are meaningless.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Really. More evolved you say?
Does that mean males carry babies now? Because point blank, here's what's going on:
If you have a war and win, but lose 70% of your males, the culture goes on.
If you have a war and win, but lose 70% of your females, the culture is DEAD.
The military is populated chiefly by males not because they're more belligerent, but because they are society's expendables. This is why even the most egalitarian-minded men object to women in frontline combat roles - by risking your tribe's breeders, you have FAILED in your duties as a male. This isn't even cultural bias... we're talking base level biological imperative.
Until Star Trek comes out and says they run off babies en mass with total independence from the biological constraints humanity has labored under since sexual reproduction became a thing on our favorite mudball, then males are always going to numerically dominate professions were "risk is our business". And where you have numerical dominance, you get cultural dominance. Most captains of armed vessels will be male.
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
No worries. No one expects dragons to have the slightest clue how hairless river monkeys are wired
His character name is "Captain Lorca" - that could easily be non-human.
HUMAN men dominate combat roles because they ARE statistically bigger, stronger, and more belligerent, and speaking as an "egalitarian-minded man", I have zero problem with letting women into any and all combat roles provided they can meet the same physical fitness requirements as male applicants. Starfleet is not primarily an infantry service.
@steaen: Lorca is a surname of Spanish origin, referring to the municipality of Lorca in Murcia. He's 99% likely to be human.
@valoreah: I already explained my answer to that twice on the first page, I have no interest in repeating myself.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What if he's only part human?
Winning.
Oh, now don't tell me you want in on all this! Well, ok. Look this that Egg Pawn hanging outside your window, pointing his laser rifle at you, waiting for my next order. He's doing his part. He helps conquer the weak-minded. He roboticizes the weak-bodied. Heck, he even helps keep the useless people from causing any trouble, but you know what? Join. Find the closest Nataran Empire roboticization center near you and join the ranks, before the ranks find you. Oh, I know, you figure it must be so satisfying to know I basically rule the world now, and you know what? It is, but do you want to know the true definition of satisfaction? Well, let me tell you a little story. One day, you see a brand new event. They're giving out boxes that give old event stuff. Your dilithium is plentiful. You buy a whole lot of Phoenix packs on your main, and open them all. You get one epic token. Then, you decide, that since you have all the Breen ships and don't give a damn about the others, you exchange it for an ultra rare, and grab yourself a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship and for the hell of it, a Voth Bulwark. You open both, leaving the Bulwark in your vast masses of starships as you jump into the bugship and deck it out, deck by deck, into the most awesome Jem'Hadar ship you can. You fly it. You enjoy it. Eventually, you get bored and leave, leaving the old Bulwark never flown... until later. Your main is long complete. Your new alt main, based off some character you pulled out of nothing just to explain away some starship being in service without the command of your dear admiral, is also complete. Mostly. Their reps and doffs are hard at work, getting you stuff. You realize the potential, and head back for your dear admiral, pull the most Voth themed build you can out of thin air, and suit up in your giant ship in the shape of you know what. You head out... and cause all sorts of havoc. Enemies scream out your name as their very life is drained away by your swarms of Aceton Assimilators. They complain to the devs of your OPness when you revive yourself from death every time you die. Do you show any form of mercy? No. After all, this isn't the United Federation of Planets, this is mother frakkin' Starfleet, where you explore strange new worlds and kick butt never kicked before. Oh, and you realize that I just wrote another speech rivaling your own signature. Cool. Oh, wait, that's just the original draft, it is part of my signature now. Oh, and yes, I am aware that I have become a Canadian Regent; one day, sooner than you'd expect, we'll suddenly decide to take over the world and declare an "alliance", and I shall become it's Regent. You know, like the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance in the mirror universe of our beloved Star Trek. Oh, who'll we be taking over with? I dunno, maybe [REDACTED], or maybe aliens from outer space. Guess you'll have to wait and find out, won't we? Until then, don't ask too many questions, or else my Breen allies on Titania might pick up on your -- [REDACTED BY BREEN CONFEDERACY FOR REASONS] Also, psst... keep an eye out for flying Tribbles! Also walls. Big, great walls, separating entire continents apart. Walls patrolled by Tribbles. Flying Tribbles. Flying Nukara Tribbles. Don't worry, it's not like they were on Venus with a herd of Tholians or anything, they just like the extreme heat and brutal weather like acid rain and hurricane force winds as the norm. Oh, and definitely keep your eye out on any two-tailed foxes, because if they ain't glowing, they're definitely an imposter. Possibly an Undine, we caught one of those once in my place once. Oh, and if you find a two-tailed fox that doesn't like the cold... most certainly ask him to say sorry. If he refuses, DESTROY HIM WITH A DOOMSDAY MACHINE, BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD BE ENOUGH AGAINST SUCH AN OVERPOWERED IMPOSTER!
tr;dr, I am winning last post wins 3.0. Thank you for your time.
Not at all. This planet is TEEMING with humans. Personally, I've got no objection putting women were they can die in droves just like males, but that's cold logic overriding a LOT of very successful hard coding. But it's useful to understand -why- there's a inescapable unease at the concept. People like to think we're so above having 'instincts'.
Rifles have made male strength largely superfluous for more than a century. It ain't some grand disparity in lethality that's kept the transition moving along at a snails pace. But sure, we can write criteria that would largely bar them from serving. It's funny who exactly is begin asked to set those criteria though. It's just a wee bit like gerrymandering, really
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Just look at the massive upswing in racism and hate crimes in the last few weeks. That's some bad old code on parade right there, instincts being told that the intellectual reasons to suppress them just aren't required in the new cultural environment. And in keeping with the "Those without swords can still die upon them" motif, pretending it's not happening or that people can't possibly be that awful to one another over something as insignificant as eye shape or skin color or favorite deity is not going to keep you from being victimized for it. The veneer of 'civilization' is very, very thin and the lake of primordial soup beneath it is dreadfully deep.
The ability of most hairless river monkeys (that's us by the way) to even imagine concerns larger than line of sight are pretty limited. It doesn't matter there's a million women safe over the hill, the issue is that there's even one in danger right here, right now. Yeah, its not rational, but hairless river moneys by and large aren't rational. Even less so when you apply the pressure of mortal danger. If rationality prevailed in all battles, PTSD wouldn't be a thing.
The Spartans also considered women equal to men as they were just as tough.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My point is even Spartan women could match the men, they were expected to fight alongside the men if their city was under attack. They even did sports like wrestling and were toughened and conditioned from birth not to be weak.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Lets just say I do take a personal issue with misusing biology and behavioral studies to justify opression. Your theory is social-darwinism at it's finest and lacks real reason. The establishment of the patriarchy and systematic opression of women has nothing to do with instincts but calculated social molding by elites. Nobody denies that there are primal instincts left in humans but neither sexism nor current paranoia and xenophobia are "instinct driven", it is calculated, incited fear that might play on certain instincts but to assume that the patriarchy and whatever world populists paint ina ddition is somehow akin to a "natural state" is proposterous.
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And I'm very sorry for your apparently limited imagination - but you shouldn't assume that just because your vision is limited by what you can see, this must of necessity apply to everyone else as well. Did it do so, modern civilization would not even be possible. (Oh, by the way, that "river monkey" hypothesis is both disproved and very silly. We aren't relatively hairless because our ancestors swam a lot - that would have resulted in hair loss everywhere, as in cetaceans and hippopotami, rather than over the torso and limbs but not the head or genitalia. It's neoteny, an adaptation necessary in order for creatures with brains as large as ours to be born in the first place - the newborn human is not yet finished developing, and the brain will continue to develop for quite some time after birth. If it were in proportion to the adult brain/body size, the head would never pass through the birth canal. As it is, it's a pretty close-run thing; my son had to be born via C-section because his head got stuck.)
Are you incapable of reading? I said we have 'control over' not that it 'is controlled'. Fixing defects and specifying sex of babies is not the government (or anyone else) telling you how you should breed. The ability to fix problems (like say all your women were wiped out) by specifying the sex of a baby is called an emergency situation no different to, say intentionally paralysing a patient by removing a tumour from their spinal column. What part of that makes you think that I mean the government is now forcefully moving all citizens into automated facilities to be forcefully paralysed?
I'm assuming you don't live naked in a tree and eat your food raw? If not then grow up and learn to read.
@nikeix
Wars are fought with technology, in Star Trek even more than now.
Phaser rifles don't weigh any thing, you can wave them around one handed like the hollow plastic props they are. What good is a biological weight advantage going to net you there?
Transporters beam you to within a a metre of where the fighting will be, what good is your natural run speed there?
Pills can regrow kidneys and you can be inoculated against radiation poising and there's a blood transfusion hat can cure death. What good is your superior stamina now?
The average woman now is far stronger and fitter than the average woman 30 years ago. There's far more women in military roles than there was 10 years ago.
Biology changes, society changes. Stop trying to pretend the world of Star Trek is today's world. Biology is not fixed, hell, give me 150 humans and 100 years and I'll breed a population where the women are built like Schwarzenegger and the men like Kate Moss. (note to the congenitally stupid, this is a thought experiment and not a sign that the Illuminati is going to force you to breed.
Yes, we're instinct driven apes, but we're also inventors using technology to overcome nature, where there's a defect or a weakness that would have meant out extinction we invented a way around it. There are no fixed absolutes and there will never be any either.
I don't know, it'd seem obvious that any form of patriarchy is an attempt to establish control over the breeding stock. You control the female you control the lineage and blood lines. That sort of thing is very important to tribal societies but also to 'civilisation'. I'm not saying there's nothing else at work but the core of it seems to be an animistic instinct.
Paranoia and xenophobia are currently different as 'the other' is an instinct but the paranoia is being manufactured to draw on this for ideological ends. Sexism is just kinda there, there's not really any advantage for it, there's just not really a drive to end it. It's not like (in the West anyway) you can use women as 'the other' in the same way you can with minority ethnicities, races, or orientations.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Given enough time and I think women will be more deadly on the battlefield than men.
they already are, because people have always underestimated them and CONTINUE underestimating them even today, and probably will for centuries to come
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
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I support all of those things in Star Trek... When Star Trek actually says it. For the most part its presented humans/the Federation as a people absolutely terrified of self-alteration and auto-evolution. You don't get to have it both ways. Jeordi being ostracized as a cyborg (No-no, its ok. He was born blind. He didn't volunteer for it like a filthy cutter...) and Eugenics being twice as dirty a word, and then say "oh, but we're just so culturally enlightened!"
You're so right its not our world - in many, many respects its vastly more primitive. Certainly its shockingly simplistic. And while they dabble in societal fun-house mirrors, on the whole they stay far, far away from real world questions of biotech and economic ethics.
Mainly by people who don't understand the word 'average'.
Well, not unless you really want to. The reptilian overlords do need some form of entertainment.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!