♂ why do you think they went with another male captain? ♂

nikeix

shadowfang240 wrote: »

they already are, because people have always underestimated them and CONTINUE underestimating them even today, and probably will for centuries to come​​

I watch a lot of forensics files. Its always chuckle-worthy that moment in the case were the big clever (male) detectives get the look of remembered astonishment when they realized the killer was a woman. And that given the vast technological power of the common hand-truck or wheelbarrow, the little lady was perfectly capable of moving around a male corpse all by herself.

I also remember reading that "Nothing has ever done more for women's liberation than putting wheels on luggage." It's a quote I've since shared with most of my female friends... They usually agree.

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

(...)

Well, not unless you really want to. The reptilian overlords do need some form of entertainment.

I thrive under pressure

nikeix wrote: »

(...) They usually agree.

So you got absolution? Thank the gods , I was assuming something else, silly me.​​

artan42

nikeix wrote: »

I also remember reading that "Nothing has ever done more for women's liberation than putting wheels on luggage." It's a quote I've since shared with most of my female friends... They usually agree.

Good. As long as you've got anecdotes and jokes, that's like half the battle right there.​​

ryan218

Okay, first off, only a tiny minority of any human society on this planet right now serves in anything remotely resembling a military capacity (as in, less than 5%). Even assuming that entire 5% was made up of women, and all of them were killed, that still leaves 45% of the human population. Now let's assume those figures in the context of Star Trek:

Even a single Constitution-Class Starship is more than capable of rendering an M-Class planet uninhabitable and annihilating its population, so if humanity reached the point where all of Starfleet had been destroyed (the logical assumption if we're assuming somehow every or almost every female in Starfleet were killed), there is no chance of humanity surviving unless the belligerent intended it anyway. Human instincts and traditions only tend to be applied until they become redundant.

Now, on the subject of the OP, I really don't care what gender they choose for a character as long as the selected actor can portray it well. I'd rather they select an actor on the basis of merit than for the sake of diversity.

artan42

ryan218 wrote: »

Even a single Constitution-Class Starship is more than capable of rendering an M-Class planet uninhabitable and annihilating its population.

I doubt that's true. We see ships struggling to perform similar feats. The Borg sphere in FC was on a mission to completely wipe out humanity and it's torpedoes barely scratched a hut made of scrap.
I know it was stated in TOS, but TOS said a lot of things that were proven wrong later on.

ryan218

artan42 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

Even a single Constitution-Class Starship is more than capable of rendering an M-Class planet uninhabitable and annihilating its population.

I doubt that's true. We see ships struggling to perform similar feats. The Borg sphere in FC was on a mission to completely wipe out humanity and it's torpedoes barely scratched a hut made of scrap.
I know it was stated in TOS, but TOS said a lot of things that were proven wrong later on.

True, but Voyager showed a single Federation probe was capable of totally devastating a planetary ecosystem. Given what we know of photon torpedoes, it's not outrageous to suggest a few hundred photon torpedoes placed properly could destroy all humanoid life on a planetary surface. If I recall correctly, the Constitution-Class carried at least 100 torpedoes.

Also, the Borg were on a mission to prevent first contact, which is why they targeted Montana. If they wanted to utterly destroy humanity, there are more efficient methods than destroying a small shanty town in rural North America (say, vaporising the polar ice caps?). Before passing through the temporal disturbance, Data reported that altered Earth was inhabited by Borg. That suggests the Borg assimilated Earth. You can't assimilate a species if you wipe it out. That suggests the Borg were trying to kill Cochrane and/or destroy the Phoenix, specifically.

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legendarylycan

if that epsode was the one with the ancient humanoids, i'm pretty sure it was the cardassians who did that, not the klingons​​

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sarah2774

Because most men are threatened by a female captain.

Men reaction,

1) The Female is stunning. If she's incomprehesible will drool, protect and defend her.
2) The Female is mature. She's incomprehensible will just ignore her.

artan42

ryan218 wrote: »

True, but Voyager showed a single Federation probe was capable of totally devastating a planetary ecosystem. Given what we know of photon torpedoes, it's not outrageous to suggest a few hundred photon torpedoes placed properly could destroy all humanoid life on a planetary surface. If I recall correctly, the Constitution-Class carried at least 100 torpedoes.

It's not outrageous (and the maths does check out) but it kinda makes a lot of DS9 a bit... silly, maybe?

The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar sends a few dozen ships to obliterate the Founders homeworld when a D'D out carries a TOS Constitution in the first place. It takes several B'Rels and Vor'Chas to destroy a unshielded shipyard. Even little B'rels and the Defiant hull tank photon torpedoes.

TNG mostly followed TOS and used torpedoes sparingly justifying their superposed high power, but the rate they were used in DS9 and VOY (against shielded and unshielded targets) shows that can't be as powerful as TOS and TNG made out.​​

legendarylycan

enterprise took several unshielded photon hits from chang and they didn't seem to do all that much damage (even the one that tore through the saucer just tore through it like a slug - it didn't explode for some reason)

and the klingons being as they are, i would expect their photons to be a bit more powerful even without direct canon evidence to support or contradict such a thought​​

artan42

shadowfang240 wrote: »

enterprise took several unshielded photon hits from chang and they didn't seem to do all that much damage (even the one that tore through the saucer just tore through it like a slug - it didn't explode for some reason)

and the klingons being as they are, i would expect their photons to be a bit more powerful even without direct canon evidence to support or contradict such a thought

Didn't the same ships (BoP) destroy the Ent D with torpedoes?​​

legendarylycan

they were using disruptors, too (one of which i recall hit somewhere in the vicinity of the D's engineering section, and probably what set off the core breach)​​

ryan218

shadowfang240 wrote: »

they were using disruptors, too (one of which i recall hit somewhere in the vicinity of the D's engineering section, and probably what set off the core breach)​​

Right before the coolant leak, Geordi says "it must have been that last torpedo." Given the torpedo struck the unshielded secondary hull, I wouldn't be surprised if that was enough to cause a core breach (given even a phaser blast to one of the nacelles was capable of crippling the Enterprise in the show).

ryan218

artan42 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

True, but Voyager showed a single Federation probe was capable of totally devastating a planetary ecosystem. Given what we know of photon torpedoes, it's not outrageous to suggest a few hundred photon torpedoes placed properly could destroy all humanoid life on a planetary surface. If I recall correctly, the Constitution-Class carried at least 100 torpedoes.

It's not outrageous (and the maths does check out) but it kinda makes a lot of DS9 a bit... silly, maybe?

The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar sends a few dozen ships to obliterate the Founders homeworld when a D'D out carries a TOS Constitution in the first place. It takes several B'Rels and Vor'Chas to destroy a unshielded shipyard. Even little B'rels and the Defiant hull tank photon torpedoes.

TNG mostly followed TOS and used torpedoes sparingly justifying their superposed high power, but the rate they were used in DS9 and VOY (against shielded and unshielded targets) shows that can't be as powerful as TOS and TNG made out.​​

It's worth noting that General Order 24 was designed to render a planet uninhabitable, while the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order literally obliterated the planet's crust.

Also, photon torpedoes don't have an exclusive yield. In 'The Expanse', Reed remarks that they could calculate the yield on a photonic torpedo anywhere from 'destroying a ship's communications array to vaporising a mountain'. And I believe there's a line somewhere about high-yield torpedoes depleting more power, so in a battle scenario there is a limit to how high you can charge a photon's yield, especially when you're constantly cloaking like a Bird of Prey. As for the Defiant; her armour was specifically designed to resist weapons-fire. The Defiant was able to absorb fire from a Vorcha-Class Attack Cruiser for 5 minutes with largely minor damage without firing back during 'Way of the Warrior' (and that included disruptor fire).

artan42

ryan218 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

ryan218 wrote: »

True, but Voyager showed a single Federation probe was capable of totally devastating a planetary ecosystem. Given what we know of photon torpedoes, it's not outrageous to suggest a few hundred photon torpedoes placed properly could destroy all humanoid life on a planetary surface. If I recall correctly, the Constitution-Class carried at least 100 torpedoes.

It's not outrageous (and the maths does check out) but it kinda makes a lot of DS9 a bit... silly, maybe?

The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar sends a few dozen ships to obliterate the Founders homeworld when a D'D out carries a TOS Constitution in the first place. It takes several B'Rels and Vor'Chas to destroy a unshielded shipyard. Even little B'rels and the Defiant hull tank photon torpedoes.

TNG mostly followed TOS and used torpedoes sparingly justifying their superposed high power, but the rate they were used in DS9 and VOY (against shielded and unshielded targets) shows that can't be as powerful as TOS and TNG made out.

It's worth noting that General Order 24 was designed to render a planet uninhabitable, while the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order literally obliterated the planet's crust.

Also, photon torpedoes don't have an exclusive yield. In 'The Expanse', Reed remarks that they could calculate the yield on a photonic torpedo anywhere from 'destroying a ship's communications array to vaporising a mountain'. And I believe there's a line somewhere about high-yield torpedoes depleting more power, so in a battle scenario there is a limit to how high you can charge a photon's yield, especially when you're constantly cloaking like a Bird of Prey. As for the Defiant; her armour was specifically designed to resist weapons-fire. The Defiant was able to absorb fire from a Vorcha-Class Attack Cruiser for 5 minutes with largely minor damage without firing back during 'Way of the Warrior' (and that included disruptor fire).

I think we can agree it'd be silly for Klingons to be running anything except full yield. They've never fought to disable ships. Especially when their mission is to destroy the shipyards.
I also don't think you can change the torpedoes yield on the fly. They're physical casings with a set amount of anti-matter in them. I can't see how that's something you can change from a console.​​

legendarylycan

you can remote-detonate torpedoes in flight (as demonstrated in TNG when one of the enterprise's went off-course and they tried to self-destruct it, which naturally failed) so i don't see why yield can't also be adjusted mid-flight​​

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

(...)I think we can agree it'd be silly for Klingons to be running anything except full yield. They've never fought to disable ships. Especially when their mission is to destroy the shipyards.
I also don't think you can change the torpedoes yield on the fly. They're physical casings with a set amount of anti-matter in them. I can't see how that's something you can change from a console.

You can load torpedoes with different, "pre-packaged" yield via the console. Or at least tell your crew to do that, I'm not enitrely sure if TNG torpedoes are still manually loaded as are TMP ones.​​

markhawkman

shadowfang240 wrote: »

you can remote-detonate torpedoes in flight (as demonstrated in TNG when one of the enterprise's went off-course and they tried to self-destruct it, which naturally failed) so i don't see why yield can't also be adjusted mid-flight​​

Um... Photon torpedos use a violent anti-matter detonation. Reducing the yield would require it to have a way to vent anti-matter without destroying itself.

ryan218

markhawkman wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

you can remote-detonate torpedoes in flight (as demonstrated in TNG when one of the enterprise's went off-course and they tried to self-destruct it, which naturally failed) so i don't see why yield can't also be adjusted mid-flight​​

Um... Photon torpedos use a violent anti-matter detonation. Reducing the yield would require it to have a way to vent anti-matter without destroying itself.

My original point was that the yield is adjustable prior to launch, but that it takes more power to launch a high-yield torpedo than a low-yield one. For the Klingons, especially when conducting a high-speed run on a heavily-armed installation immediately out of cloak, firing full-yield torpedoes at the expense of either shields or propulsion would be very dangerous; as in, 'we're going to get killed before we can complete our mission' dangerous. Even the Klingons aren't fanatical enough to get themselves killed at the expense of their mission. Plus, anti-matter is expensive.

legendarylycan

and since space is rarely filled with enough matter to react that violently with antimatter, it can easily be vented without destroying the torpedo in the process​​

markhawkman

Unless the anti-matter touches the torpedo itself..

legendarylycan

that's what magnetic fields are for, and in fact what keeps the antimatter inside the torpedo from interacting with normal matter​​

artan42

shadowfang240 wrote: »

you can remote-detonate torpedoes in flight (as demonstrated in TNG when one of the enterprise's went off-course and they tried to self-destruct it, which naturally failed) so i don't see why yield can't also be adjusted mid-flight​​

Because yield is physical quantity of anti-matter on the torpedo. You cannot just add or remove it once it's been fired.

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

(...)I think we can agree it'd be silly for Klingons to be running anything except full yield. They've never fought to disable ships. Especially when their mission is to destroy the shipyards.
I also don't think you can change the torpedoes yield on the fly. They're physical casings with a set amount of anti-matter in them. I can't see how that's something you can change from a console.

You can load torpedoes with different, "pre-packaged" yield via the console. Or at least tell your crew to do that, I'm not entirely sure if TNG torpedoes are still manually loaded as are TMP ones.​​

Unless there's a stock of torpedoes of different yields (which could happen, it's not impossible) then the time between somebody on the bridge hitting the fire button and the torpedo exiting the ship there's no spare time for any manual alterations to be happening.

ryan218 wrote: »

My original point was that the yield is adjustable prior to launch, but that it takes more power to launch a high-yield torpedo than a low-yield one. For the Klingons, especially when conducting a high-speed run on a heavily-armed installation immediately out of cloak, firing full-yield torpedoes at the expense of either shields or propulsion would be very dangerous; as in, 'we're going to get killed before we can complete our mission' dangerous. Even the Klingons aren't fanatical enough to get themselves killed at the expense of their mission. Plus, anti-matter is expensive.

Yes it would, which is exactly why they were show to be like towards the latter end of DS9. Also, this same tactic against unshielded targets was also done by Vor'Chas with no cloak (that they used anyway). Battle of Cardassia, there's no reason to use low yield torpedoes there, especially not from the larger ships like the Galaxy or Vor'cha.

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

(...)Unless there's a stock of torpedoes of different yields (which could happen, it's not impossible) then the time between somebody on the bridge hitting the fire button and the torpedo exiting the ship there's no spare time for any manual alterations to be happening. (...)

That's what I thought. The ship has stocks of, let's just say "low", "medium" and "high" yield torpedoes. Whent he command is given ("Mister Poofter, fire a high yield torpedo at that yob's face, in her majesties' name!") Mister Reginald Poofter prepares the computer to load the torpedo which is not hard to believe can happen in almost a an instant given technology and training. I agree that the manual loading would indeed be weird, but it was in the movies before anyway. And I think to remember that it wasn't just the specially modified torpedo, I think crewmen actually ran around and were opening the tubes and loading them.

But for the whole argument, does it really matter if a single torpedo can do it? It was repeatedly shown that there are ways to effectively glass a planet with a single ship, be it deflector magic or weapon fire (which I think nobody said it would just need one torpedo?). If the Borg sphere is any indication I'd just say that is where they oinked the poor dog deep as literally nothing about First Contact makes any sense - lame green farts from the sphere tickling corrugated metal sheds is the least of their problems ​​

legendarylycan

a possible alternate explanation - borg use gravimetric torpedoes, so possibly the damage they deal is dependant on target mass...which a corrugated metal shack doesn't have much of​​

angrytarg

shadowfang240 wrote: »

a possible alternate explanation - borg use gravimetric torpedoes, so possibly the damage they deal is dependant on target mass...which a corrugated metal shack doesn't have much of

This bit comes from a game, though, so it doesn't apply. However, it did lead to me researching and finding this: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Gravimetric_torpedo - "When further investigation revealed that there may have been hundreds of Omega molecules, however, Janeway ordered the yield increased to eighty isotons, which Harry Kim remarked to be enough to destroy a small planet" - it seems that even a Intrepid class ship has the necessary things on board to create a (small) planet killer.​​

legendarylycan

as well as subspace weapons at high yields *cough*tricobalt warheads*cough*

you know, that species from Living Witness describing voyager as a warship weren't totally wrong...​​

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

shadowfang240 wrote: »

a possible alternate explanation - borg use gravimetric torpedoes, so possibly the damage they deal is dependant on target mass...which a corrugated metal shack doesn't have much of

This bit comes from a game, though, so it doesn't apply. However, it did lead to me researching and finding this: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Gravimetric_torpedo - "When further investigation revealed that there may have been hundreds of Omega molecules, however, Janeway ordered the yield increased to eighty isotons, which Harry Kim remarked to be enough to destroy a small planet" - it seems that even a Intrepid class ship has the necessary things on board to create a (small) planet killer.​​

Cool. So we see starships hull tank weapons, a single example of which, could destroy a small planet?

Ye gods, I hope Discovery has writers who understand scale.

It's one thing giving Data a smaller memory processor than we have in our pockets now but another entirely to give Voyager the equivalent of the Death Star and simultaneously act surprised when 8472 destroy a planet with five ships.

Besides, anti-matter is as dense as normal matter (well it needs to be for efficient annihilation with no left overs), how in buggery are they carrying even one isotonne (I'm assuming slightly over a zettatonne as that's how much TNT equivalent would be needed to destroy the Earth) of anything?