The problem with this approach is that, as noted several times previously in the thread, it's written several different ways in various appearances. Hmmm If only I had the time to rewatch every ep and make a list of which times Starfleet is portrayed as military vs portrayed as non-military....
I don't think there are instances when Starfleet officers identify the organization they serve in as a military organization. The contrary however does happen multiple times and is a major plot point.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They don't sell? I imagine they don't sell well which is why we don't see more of them...remember this game is all about making money.
They said they had plans to launch another Vulcan and Andorian ship and even Tellarite...but after they said they had plans for such nothing ever came out of it.
The problem with this approach is that, as noted several times previously in the thread, it's written several different ways in various appearances. Hmmm If only I had the time to rewatch every ep and make a list of which times Starfleet is portrayed as military vs portrayed as non-military....
I don't think there are instances when Starfleet officers identify the organization they serve in as a military organization. The contrary however does happen multiple times and is a major plot point.
You mean like the episodes when someone gets court martialed? Or when various characters recite the Starfleet General Orders? General Order 24 is especially interesting in that no civilian agency would give a ship captain that authority. The only way to reconcile these disparate depictions is what Wakeroberts said. IE that Starfleet is the Federation military, but that it's not referred to as such by Starfleet personnel because it has more functions than "just" a military.
there is a quote outlying that Rodenberry intended Starfleet to be as militarized as "(...) say, the coast guard (...)" - it was just an example. Functionally, as we have covered multiple times already, Starfleet's duties encompass most of what the US coast guard does you could say including it's military function.
The Coast Guard is 100% "military". It is one of the 5 branches of the US military. Every single member must take the Oath of Enlistment, giving up some of their rights as citizens to be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. There is NOTHING "not military" about it.
And ultimately this is what is so frustrating about this conversation for people who have severed. If you know what the military actually is -- beyond the ridiculous stereotypes propagated through popular culture INCLUDING STAR TREK -- its bloody obvious that Star Fleet is a military organization serving as the Federation's military arm. That Picard and Scotty are protesting a reality they don't like, and espousing an ideal they wish were true.
And beyond various quotes taken in and wildly out of context, the bottom line is Star Trek is NOT a coherent setting, it's platform for story telling. For every story of exploration there's also a story of conflict and war. The writers WANT to be able to tell military stories, so they do. Picard and Scotty can howl "it's not a military" until the moon falls from the sky - as long as the writers keep dipping their pens in the well of military stories, complete with threats of court martials and bristling at command authority, Starfleet is going to keep displaying military traits.
The Coast Guard is 100% "military". It is one of the 5 branches of the US military. Every single member must take the Oath of Enlistment, giving up some of their rights as citizens to be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. There is NOTHING "not military" about it.
That is, as far as I can tell, only partly correct. Yes, it is one of the branches but the US Coast Guard fulfills domestic law enforcement duties which are explicitly not a militaries task and also your department of homeland security oversees the CG which is also a civilian agency. That put aside, one could argue what a militaries duties are and what aren't. For isntance, I am fairly certain humanitarian aid is not an inherent military function, as is scientific work. However, the militaries help and perform these tasks because they have the equipment and are on site. Starfleet does the whole spiel the other way around, it's that simple.
And ultimately this is what is so frustrating about this conversation for people who have severed. If you know what the military actually is -- beyond the ridiculous stereotypes propagated through popular culture INCLUDING STAR TREK -- its bloody obvious that Star Fleet is a military organization serving as the Federation's military arm. That Picard and Scotty are protesting a reality they don't like, and espousing an ideal they wish were true.
I understand this is a personal issue for you so I will only keep to Star Trek - but what you say makes no sense. Why should "Scotty and Picard" join the Navy and then complain that they are in the Navy whent hey rather would like to do something else? You let your personal feelings put everything aside that interferes with your desire to somehow project your service into Star Trek or vice versa. One thing has nothing to do with you. Starfleet serves as the UFPs military arm as they provide the defense, this is true and nobody, not even "Scotty and Picard" question this. However, star Trek is very explicit that Starfleet is not a military organization, they just perform tasks that are associated with militaries. Since we know that both these things are true for Star Trek we have to piece them together to make sense and you are unable to believe that there can be a fictional space faring organization that replaces present day values and concepts in a TV show about the 23rd century because you feel your work isn't valued enough.
And beyond various quotes taken in and wildly out of context, the bottom line is Star Trek is NOT a coherent setting, it's platform for story telling. For every story of exploration there's also a story of conflict and war. The writers WANT to be able to tell military stories, so they do. Picard and Scotty can howl "it's not a military" until the moon falls from the sky - as long as the writers keep dipping their pens in the well of military stories, complete with threats of court martials and bristling at command authority, Starfleet is going to keep displaying military traits.
Because terms are used that are today associated with the US military they have to portray the same organization, appearantly. Because ultimately this is the whole argument, not that there are even examples of paramilitary services that could work like Starfleet in our present time or, since they weren't even necessary since we talk fiction, that things just work how the writers - as diverse as they may be - write it. For instance, the plot of star Trek Beyond - did the ex-MACO villian snap and wanted to throw the universe into eternal war because Scotty was "protesting a reality he didn't like"? This is just not how things work.
EDIT: I give you an example, "Threshold". Star Trek is written in a way that when you fly very very fast, a human gets devolved into a lizard. Of course this is nonsense and defies not only biology but also physics, genetics and basically every other science we know. I say "this is a stupid plot and it is too much to suspend my disbelief to be taken seriously" - however I cannot argue that this is not true for the world of Star Trek as this was written and shown, so in the alternate universe of Star Trek this works. Why not try to see it like this?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Starfleet has embargoed worlds. The Enterprise in every incarnation was a flagship to project not just soft power but hard power as well. It has nearly always been the strongest ship of the line the technology of the day could field. Picard may prefer to emphasize exploration but the truth is his main strength was diplomacy and a willingness to use force when no other option was available.
Because words have meanings... If the writers had wanted to use non-military terms they could have, but they didn't.
And if they wanted Starfleet to be a military organization they wouldn't have repeatedly written that it's not. Look, this is going nowhere as neither of us can rewrite Star Trek. The authors did misuse terms quite often, for example "event horizon" or the devolution thing. But for the fictional piece we see this is all still true. So starfleet is not civilian but not military - it is a new combined service called "Starfleet" which uses some terminology in naval tradition - although mind you from a time long passed and, as Spock once said, much historic information was lost so it is also possible that the terminology is used in a distorted way just like we do today. It is however "fact" that the military and non military nature of Starfleet is true and thus as an observer we have to combine these elements so they make sense. The easiest way is to accept fiction and just put the pieces together so "court martial" is simply used as a Starfleet specific court system. From a current point of view the authors might have misused the term, but as I said they did so with other terms and we have to accept that in the world we see in Star Trek this all still holds true through some form of development in language, habits or science. If you desperately need a present day real life focal point however, they exist - paramilitary organizations that hold special legal status for example the UN thing or organizations like the German post WW2 BGS. It is not that hard to imagine that in a world of space colonies and warp flight such an organization could exist that simply due to ease of allocating resources from hundreds of worlds that voluntarily decide to abolish (most) of their militaries due to histories of warfare and violence create such a service. It's really all in the source material.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I think "repeatedly" is an exaggeration. How many quotes are there? 2? 3? There's more Star Trek Series than that... At any rate it would seem that you agree that we've established that the whole thing is arguing about the semantics of whether an organization that acts as the Federation military is in fact a military due to other stuff.
I think "repeatedly" is an exaggeration. How many quotes are there? 2? 3? There's more Star Trek Series than that... At any rate it would seem that you agree that we've established that the whole thing is arguing about the semantics of whether an organization that acts as the Federation military is in fact a military due to other stuff.
I don't know wether you can strengthen your position with the number of quotes. I don't know, five or six and a entire movie
Essentially yes, it is. It boils down to people not accepting that a not military can use ships dubbed Explorers to fight if necessary despite them not being called navy and battleships. Wether or not one can agree with the philosophy behind this choice (and if you do you can't be convinced and vice versa) I think this is what it boils down to. But that's still too much for some.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
weren't merchant ships back in the age of sail unusually heavily armed for civilian vessels? ships can have lots of guns without being a military vessel
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
weren't merchant ships back in the age of sail unusually heavily armed for civilian vessels? ships can have lots of guns without being a military vessel
That's true, during some eras merchantmen would regularily outgun military vessels (spanish galeones for example which were warships modified to transport cargo on the manila-route during the 17th century or Dutch fluyts) to protect their cargo, but of course those ships were very unmanoeuvreable and would in a line battle probably lose due to being too unflexible. But this is essentially what a Galaxy class for example is in a combat situation, a heavily armed steamroller that would be outmanoeuvred by smaller battlecruisers but could still take on a few in a singular encounter. In Star Trek terms I think it was said that Ferengi ships are also quite heavily armed for the same reason.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
weren't merchant ships back in the age of sail unusually heavily armed for civilian vessels? ships can have lots of guns without being a military vessel
By modern standards, yes. But they were feeble compared to proper warships of the time. Also their arms were mainly for dealing with pirates who usually had vessels far less powerful than proper warships.
Among other things, they usually had far weaker cannons and little, if any, armor. It'd be like a wooden ship version of the battle between HMAS Sydney and the Kormoran. Granted, the Kormoran sank the Sydney, but at the cost of being turned into an unsalvageable wreck.
I believe the reason for using the term court-martial isn't so much in it's military context but rather it's 'separate from civilian courts' context. Honestly, they probably could have gone with better terms like tribunal or inquisition, though those have their own connotations and would have likely had us arguing about whether Starfleet is a religious organization instead of whether its a military. Point being, those cases of court-martials weren't proper trials with juries and all the other bells and whistles that comes with that, they were private Starfleet affairs presided over by Starfleet personnel following rules and regulations established by Starfleet for Starfleet.
The various instances of Starfleet personnel questioning obvious military actions in spite of Starfleet's established role still stands as a clear sign of just what Starfleet is.
Starfleet CLAIMS to be "not a military". This is undoubtedly a legal fiction they believe, but has little bearing on the practical reality of what they do. My people have a saying: "If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, and burns like a duck, then for all practical purposes it is a duck." We call this the Duck Equivalence Principle. We also have this corollary: "...but if it denies that it's a duck, then it's probably a Russian duck.".
The family of Anatidae is not only very large with something close to 150 species and a few dozen genera but can and will also be confused with a lot of other water dwelling fowl. The "Duck Equivalence Principle" is a very short sighted and annoying comparison that doesn't work the way people use it 99% of the time.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Is that going in the direction of "only a military can fight a battle" again? We were over this like three pages or so ago.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Is that going in the direction of "only a military can fight a battle" again? We were over this like three pages or so ago.
Well, the whole discussion is a matter of arguing semantics. Why not?
The first battle of Chintoka was not a defensive engagement. Therefore it does not fall into the police or coast guard roles. It was an aggressive strike meant to conquer an enemy stronghold. Also it had Starfleet collaborating with the Romulan and Klingon militaries.
So given the available definitions for existing words.... It was a military engagement. I can't think of any other phrase that describes it. But feel free to post what you think it should be called.
Well, the whole discussion is a matter of arguing semantics. Why not?
The first battle of Chintoka was not a defensive engagement. Therefore it does not fall into the police or coast guard roles. It was an aggressive strike meant to conquer an enemy stronghold. Also it had Starfleet collaborating with the Romulan and Klingon militaries.
So given the available definitions for existing words.... It was a military engagement. I can't think of any other phrase that describes it. But feel free to post what you think it should be called.
It is, but I am kinda disappointed we start the discussion from the beginning again. Starfleet does provide military services, nobody ever argued with that. Picard himself said he was an accredited battlefield commander. They still aren't a military organization by their own definition. The UFP is a pacifist society abolishing all their militaries in favour of Starfleet. As such, offensive actions can of course be taken if by all means the result will yield less violence than the alternative. The reason is that Star Trek, as a product of it's time (and the UFP/humanity in the fictional universe of Trek) have a inherently critical view on militaries due to real life and fictional horrors caused by them, hence the decision to go with that. Wether one agrees or disagrees with this point of view is completely irrelevant to the fact that the show and movies do carry this particular detail through pretty much every era of Star Trek. That means we have an organization that serves as or in lieu of "the military" without being "a military". Since this is fiction we talk about there shouldn't be too many problems with that as we can assume a lot of things happened in the Trek universe that changed perception and definitions. Remember, Star Trek is not set in our universe, it's one that had terrible global nuclear warfare in the 1990s, different political factions and even nations. To come full circle, we have no idea how the UFPs politics regarding Starfleet actions beyond their own borders are unless we get a movie called "Star Trek: C-Span" that consist of two hours of someone reciting the UFPs political fundamentals. The reason we dipped into real life examples of "non-military" military-esque organizations in the first place is that some participants of the discussion absolutely require a RL point of reference for a sci-fi show set centuries in the future of an alternate universe.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Enh, future sci-fi people are still people. Thus it makes sense to explain things in terms people use. Realistically it makes sense for the definitions of words to change over time as we move 500 years into the future. But this is a work of fiction. You can't actually write a work of fiction and use a different vocabulary than the reader. It just doesn't work. You either confuse the reader, or force the reader to learn made-up words. Either way is bad.
Starfleet is a multi role organisation charged with both the protection of the federation and exploration \ scientific duties. Sfc operates under the term "every ship a ship of the line"
Well, the whole discussion is a matter of arguing semantics. Why not?
The first battle of Chintoka was not a defensive engagement. Therefore it does not fall into the police or coast guard roles. It was an aggressive strike meant to conquer an enemy stronghold. Also it had Starfleet collaborating with the Romulan and Klingon militaries.
So given the available definitions for existing words.... It was a military engagement. I can't think of any other phrase that describes it. But feel free to post what you think it should be called.
It is, but I am kinda disappointed we start the discussion from the beginning again. Starfleet does provide military services, nobody ever argued with that. Picard himself said he was an accredited battlefield commander. They still aren't a military organization by their own definition. The UFP is a pacifist society abolishing all their militaries in favour of Starfleet. As such, offensive actions can of course be taken if by all means the result will yield less violence than the alternative. The reason is that Star Trek, as a product of it's time (and the UFP/humanity in the fictional universe of Trek) have a inherently critical view on militaries due to real life and fictional horrors caused by them, hence the decision to go with that. Wether one agrees or disagrees with this point of view is completely irrelevant to the fact that the show and movies do carry this particular detail through pretty much every era of Star Trek. That means we have an organization that serves as or in lieu of "the military" without being "a military". Since this is fiction we talk about there shouldn't be too many problems with that as we can assume a lot of things happened in the Trek universe that changed perception and definitions. Remember, Star Trek is not set in our universe, it's one that had terrible global nuclear warfare in the 1990s, different political factions and even nations. To come full circle, we have no idea how the UFPs politics regarding Starfleet actions beyond their own borders are unless we get a movie called "Star Trek: C-Span" that consist of two hours of someone reciting the UFPs political fundamentals. The reason we dipped into real life examples of "non-military" military-esque organizations in the first place is that some participants of the discussion absolutely require a RL point of reference for a sci-fi show set centuries in the future of an alternate universe.
No, that means we have an organization that is "the military" without calling itself "a military."
Picard saying it's not a military doesn't make it not a military, any more than him saying his shirt isn't red would make his shirt not red.
And even if we assume the word "military" has some (unknown) different meaning in the 24th century, by the definition of the english language as it exists now Starfleet is the UFP's military.
Gene Roddenberry however actually tried to pretend that future sci-fi people are not like people today. Humans are "more evolved" in Star Trek then we are today. That might be questionable to us, but it is a common part of the fiction we're dealing with here, and maybe that is not overly naive and idealistic, maybe we're just to cynical?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Gene Roddenberry however actually tried to pretend that future sci-fi people are not like people today. Humans are "more evolved" in Star Trek then we are today. That might be questionable to us, but it is a common part of the fiction we're dealing with here, and maybe that is not overly naive and idealistic, maybe we're just to cynical?
True, and several characters in the show even claimed it to be true. A great example is in First Contact.... but First Contact is also a great example of the validity of this claim being questioned in universe as well.
No, that means we have an organization that is "the military" without calling itself "a military."
Picard saying it's not a military doesn't make it not a military, any more than him saying his shirt isn't red would make his shirt not red.
And even if we assume the word "military" has some (unknown) different meaning in the 24th century, by the definition of the english language as it exists now Starfleet is the UFP's military.
How can this be discussed if you don't stop just replying to three buzzwords over and over again?
It's not "Picard saying it" as you would know if you had read more (seen Star Trek? idk) but it is a motif that returns in nearly every era of Star Trek, that is portrayed int he catchphrase of the franchise, the credo of SFA, the plot of a whole squealin' movie - you can disagree with the philosophy behind it, no problem. But to pretend your view trumps actual canon is just off.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
I don't think there are instances when Starfleet officers identify the organization they serve in as a military organization. The contrary however does happen multiple times and is a major plot point.
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maybe it doesnt sell bc its not T6?
My character Tsin'xing
The Coast Guard is 100% "military". It is one of the 5 branches of the US military. Every single member must take the Oath of Enlistment, giving up some of their rights as citizens to be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. There is NOTHING "not military" about it.
And ultimately this is what is so frustrating about this conversation for people who have severed. If you know what the military actually is -- beyond the ridiculous stereotypes propagated through popular culture INCLUDING STAR TREK -- its bloody obvious that Star Fleet is a military organization serving as the Federation's military arm. That Picard and Scotty are protesting a reality they don't like, and espousing an ideal they wish were true.
And beyond various quotes taken in and wildly out of context, the bottom line is Star Trek is NOT a coherent setting, it's platform for story telling. For every story of exploration there's also a story of conflict and war. The writers WANT to be able to tell military stories, so they do. Picard and Scotty can howl "it's not a military" until the moon falls from the sky - as long as the writers keep dipping their pens in the well of military stories, complete with threats of court martials and bristling at command authority, Starfleet is going to keep displaying military traits.
That is, as far as I can tell, only partly correct. Yes, it is one of the branches but the US Coast Guard fulfills domestic law enforcement duties which are explicitly not a militaries task and also your department of homeland security oversees the CG which is also a civilian agency. That put aside, one could argue what a militaries duties are and what aren't. For isntance, I am fairly certain humanitarian aid is not an inherent military function, as is scientific work. However, the militaries help and perform these tasks because they have the equipment and are on site. Starfleet does the whole spiel the other way around, it's that simple.
I understand this is a personal issue for you so I will only keep to Star Trek - but what you say makes no sense. Why should "Scotty and Picard" join the Navy and then complain that they are in the Navy whent hey rather would like to do something else? You let your personal feelings put everything aside that interferes with your desire to somehow project your service into Star Trek or vice versa. One thing has nothing to do with you. Starfleet serves as the UFPs military arm as they provide the defense, this is true and nobody, not even "Scotty and Picard" question this. However, star Trek is very explicit that Starfleet is not a military organization, they just perform tasks that are associated with militaries. Since we know that both these things are true for Star Trek we have to piece them together to make sense and you are unable to believe that there can be a fictional space faring organization that replaces present day values and concepts in a TV show about the 23rd century because you feel your work isn't valued enough.
Because terms are used that are today associated with the US military they have to portray the same organization, appearantly. Because ultimately this is the whole argument, not that there are even examples of paramilitary services that could work like Starfleet in our present time or, since they weren't even necessary since we talk fiction, that things just work how the writers - as diverse as they may be - write it. For instance, the plot of star Trek Beyond - did the ex-MACO villian snap and wanted to throw the universe into eternal war because Scotty was "protesting a reality he didn't like"? This is just not how things work.
EDIT: I give you an example, "Threshold". Star Trek is written in a way that when you fly very very fast, a human gets devolved into a lizard. Of course this is nonsense and defies not only biology but also physics, genetics and basically every other science we know. I say "this is a stupid plot and it is too much to suspend my disbelief to be taken seriously" - however I cannot argue that this is not true for the world of Star Trek as this was written and shown, so in the alternate universe of Star Trek this works. Why not try to see it like this?
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Courts martial are military courts and even Kirk was hauled before one once. Data was nearly disassembled against his will and would have had to submit except that Picard won in (here is that word again) military court.
Starfleet has embargoed worlds. The Enterprise in every incarnation was a flagship to project not just soft power but hard power as well. It has nearly always been the strongest ship of the line the technology of the day could field. Picard may prefer to emphasize exploration but the truth is his main strength was diplomacy and a willingness to use force when no other option was available.
Starfleet is a military in any meaningful sense of the word. Not surprising given the second of Roddenberry's main inspiration.
Unless someone wants to seriously argue the British navy at the height of Empire was not a military organization.
My character Tsin'xing
And if they wanted Starfleet to be a military organization they wouldn't have repeatedly written that it's not. Look, this is going nowhere as neither of us can rewrite Star Trek. The authors did misuse terms quite often, for example "event horizon" or the devolution thing. But for the fictional piece we see this is all still true. So starfleet is not civilian but not military - it is a new combined service called "Starfleet" which uses some terminology in naval tradition - although mind you from a time long passed and, as Spock once said, much historic information was lost so it is also possible that the terminology is used in a distorted way just like we do today. It is however "fact" that the military and non military nature of Starfleet is true and thus as an observer we have to combine these elements so they make sense. The easiest way is to accept fiction and just put the pieces together so "court martial" is simply used as a Starfleet specific court system. From a current point of view the authors might have misused the term, but as I said they did so with other terms and we have to accept that in the world we see in Star Trek this all still holds true through some form of development in language, habits or science. If you desperately need a present day real life focal point however, they exist - paramilitary organizations that hold special legal status for example the UN thing or organizations like the German post WW2 BGS. It is not that hard to imagine that in a world of space colonies and warp flight such an organization could exist that simply due to ease of allocating resources from hundreds of worlds that voluntarily decide to abolish (most) of their militaries due to histories of warfare and violence create such a service. It's really all in the source material.
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My character Tsin'xing
I don't know wether you can strengthen your position with the number of quotes. I don't know, five or six and a entire movie
Essentially yes, it is. It boils down to people not accepting that a not military can use ships dubbed Explorers to fight if necessary despite them not being called navy and battleships. Wether or not one can agree with the philosophy behind this choice (and if you do you can't be convinced and vice versa) I think this is what it boils down to. But that's still too much for some.
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#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
That's true, during some eras merchantmen would regularily outgun military vessels (spanish galeones for example which were warships modified to transport cargo on the manila-route during the 17th century or Dutch fluyts) to protect their cargo, but of course those ships were very unmanoeuvreable and would in a line battle probably lose due to being too unflexible. But this is essentially what a Galaxy class for example is in a combat situation, a heavily armed steamroller that would be outmanoeuvred by smaller battlecruisers but could still take on a few in a singular encounter. In Star Trek terms I think it was said that Ferengi ships are also quite heavily armed for the same reason.
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Among other things, they usually had far weaker cannons and little, if any, armor. It'd be like a wooden ship version of the battle between HMAS Sydney and the Kormoran. Granted, the Kormoran sank the Sydney, but at the cost of being turned into an unsalvageable wreck.
My character Tsin'xing
There are three episodes that I can recall offhand that involve courts-martial (a term that applies explicitly and exclusively to military justice).
Therefore, the evidence that it is military outweighs the evidence that it is not.
(That's how the argument works, right? We have to refer to words used, rather than the actions and structure of the shows and the ships' crews?)
The various instances of Starfleet personnel questioning obvious military actions in spite of Starfleet's established role still stands as a clear sign of just what Starfleet is.
The family of Anatidae is not only very large with something close to 150 species and a few dozen genera but can and will also be confused with a lot of other water dwelling fowl. The "Duck Equivalence Principle" is a very short sighted and annoying comparison that doesn't work the way people use it 99% of the time.
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So... what would you characterize that as? Military action or something else?
My character Tsin'xing
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The first battle of Chintoka was not a defensive engagement. Therefore it does not fall into the police or coast guard roles. It was an aggressive strike meant to conquer an enemy stronghold. Also it had Starfleet collaborating with the Romulan and Klingon militaries.
So given the available definitions for existing words.... It was a military engagement. I can't think of any other phrase that describes it. But feel free to post what you think it should be called.
My character Tsin'xing
It is, but I am kinda disappointed we start the discussion from the beginning again. Starfleet does provide military services, nobody ever argued with that. Picard himself said he was an accredited battlefield commander. They still aren't a military organization by their own definition. The UFP is a pacifist society abolishing all their militaries in favour of Starfleet. As such, offensive actions can of course be taken if by all means the result will yield less violence than the alternative. The reason is that Star Trek, as a product of it's time (and the UFP/humanity in the fictional universe of Trek) have a inherently critical view on militaries due to real life and fictional horrors caused by them, hence the decision to go with that. Wether one agrees or disagrees with this point of view is completely irrelevant to the fact that the show and movies do carry this particular detail through pretty much every era of Star Trek. That means we have an organization that serves as or in lieu of "the military" without being "a military". Since this is fiction we talk about there shouldn't be too many problems with that as we can assume a lot of things happened in the Trek universe that changed perception and definitions. Remember, Star Trek is not set in our universe, it's one that had terrible global nuclear warfare in the 1990s, different political factions and even nations. To come full circle, we have no idea how the UFPs politics regarding Starfleet actions beyond their own borders are unless we get a movie called "Star Trek: C-Span" that consist of two hours of someone reciting the UFPs political fundamentals. The reason we dipped into real life examples of "non-military" military-esque organizations in the first place is that some participants of the discussion absolutely require a RL point of reference for a sci-fi show set centuries in the future of an alternate universe.
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My character Tsin'xing
Maybe thanks to the Alliance the Vulcan ships could be available to everyone?
Picard saying it's not a military doesn't make it not a military, any more than him saying his shirt isn't red would make his shirt not red.
And even if we assume the word "military" has some (unknown) different meaning in the 24th century, by the definition of the english language as it exists now Starfleet is the UFP's military.
My character Tsin'xing
How can this be discussed if you don't stop just replying to three buzzwords over and over again?
It's not "Picard saying it" as you would know if you had read more (seen Star Trek? idk) but it is a motif that returns in nearly every era of Star Trek, that is portrayed int he catchphrase of the franchise, the credo of SFA, the plot of a whole squealin' movie - you can disagree with the philosophy behind it, no problem. But to pretend your view trumps actual canon is just off.
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