It's not "Picard saying it" as you would know if you had read more (seen Star Trek? idk) but it is a motif that returns in nearly every era of Star Trek, that is portrayed int he catchphrase of the franchise, the credo of SFA, the plot of a whole squealin' movie - you can disagree with the philosophy behind it, no problem. But to pretend your view trumps actual canon is just off.
It doesn't matter who's saying it. Saying something doesn't make it true.
"My view" is the english language. I can't honestly disagree with the "philosophy" behind pretending Starfleet's not a military. If such a philosophy exists (beyond "military is bad, mm'kay"), I don't know what it is. But I can disagree with the factual basis of it, because there is none.
Still, I do wish there were more vulcan ships. I mean, they're one of the founding members of the Federation!
Except we never saw a Vulcan or Andorian ship until Enterprise. For all we know, the Federation retired all of its alien ships between the formation of the Federation and TOS.
That is the Vulcan ship the T'Pau from TNG and DS9.
That is a DS9 era Vulcan uniform.
Edit:
This is the RetroFitted Dorsal Carrier, Design XRT-55D, Commission Date 3125.
WOW on the last image. That is a pretty ship. I would 100% buy that.
It doesn't matter who's saying it. Saying something doesn't make it true.
"My view" is the english language. I can't honestly disagree with the "philosophy" behind pretending Starfleet's not a military. If such a philosophy exists (beyond "military is bad, mm'kay"), I don't know what it is. But I can disagree with the factual basis of it, because there is none.
Since I can piece together the necessary information I would assume you can do so as well. Other than that I can just say that you have a pretty bleak vision on fiction assuming that nothing can be told that works out different than real life.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It doesn't matter who's saying it. Saying something doesn't make it true.
"My view" is the english language. I can't honestly disagree with the "philosophy" behind pretending Starfleet's not a military. If such a philosophy exists (beyond "military is bad, mm'kay"), I don't know what it is. But I can disagree with the factual basis of it, because there is none.
Since I can piece together the necessary information I would assume you can do so as well. Other than that I can just say that you have a pretty bleak vision on fiction assuming that nothing can be told that works out different than real life.
Yes, but, works of fiction can contain statements made by characters in that work of fiction that are not true from an in-universe perspective.
Yes, but, works of fiction can contain statements made by characters in that work of fiction that are not true from an in-universe perspective.
That is absolutely true, however you would use literary or in this case cinematic elements to indicate a deception. In the case at hoof it is very clear that none of this is the case and that trying to declare it a "singular opinion" is grasping at straws since, again, even if you'd dismiss everything before Beyond, it was the plot of the entire movie.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It doesn't matter who's saying it. Saying something doesn't make it true.
"My view" is the english language. I can't honestly disagree with the "philosophy" behind pretending Starfleet's not a military. If such a philosophy exists (beyond "military is bad, mm'kay"), I don't know what it is. But I can disagree with the factual basis of it, because there is none.
Since I can piece together the necessary information I would assume you can do so as well. Other than that I can just say that you have a pretty bleak vision on fiction assuming that nothing can be told that works out different than real life.
You do like insulting other peoples "vision" or whatnot it seems.
Regardless, I certainly can't be told up is down, black is white or the military is not a military. A work can't consistently show a military organization, then have someone say "we're not military" and expect the audience to believe it.
You do like insulting other peoples "vision" or whatnot it seems.
Regardless, I certainly can't be told up is down, black is white or the military is not a military. A work can't consistently show a military organization, then have someone say "we're not military" and expect the audience to believe it.
I did not insult anyone at any point, but if you say your fiction has to follow real life to the letter then there's not much room for fiction. That's not an insult, it's a fact You simply seem to lack the imagination to accept that a science-fiction show portrays elements you may know in real life in different contexts, other people don't. But that's - again - not an insult, that's just different ways of looking at things.
EDIT: I am not trying to position myself "better" or "worse" as well. I just wrote in another thread how proposterous the whole "augment virus" storyline of ENT was. I think a lot of canon in Star Trek is stupid. But it's still canon, I still know what the writers were going for and I still (have to) accept what the medium tells me, even if I disagree with it
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But it's still canon, I still know what the writers were going for and I still (have to) accept what the medium tells me, even if I disagree with it
This philosophy only works if the writers had a cohesive picture to present. Apparently they did not.
This philosophy only works if the writers had a cohesive picture to present. Apparently they did not.
You say that, but in this case Trek is largely consistent. If you hang up on "they call it court martial and thus must be a military organization" that is you calling it proposterous. I say "court martial is used in a way simply to describe a Starfleet exclusive court" - it does not interfere with "not a military organization" remarks at all (because it is a alternative universe in a future with a organization we don't have an equivalent today in our not intergalactic federation encompassing world). To me there is no conflict in continuity in that regard in the entirety of Star Trek. There are a number of conflicts mind you, especially technology is (of course) vastly different in TOS than it is in TNG and beyond and sometimes doing thing A is possible and suddenly it's not. These hick-ups do exist - in this case though, I do not see it at all.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
There's been a pretty long list of things posted that suggest Starfleet is military. I'd go so far as to say they're military in all but name.
So to examine the discussion froma different point of view, what evidence is there, other than direct quotes, that Starfleet is not?
Why do you exclude quotes? If you exclude quotes, there has also never been a court martial, because you need to quote someone to say a hearing is actually called a martial court, and not a disciplinary hearing, or a regular court case?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
There's been a pretty long list of things posted that suggest Starfleet is military. I'd go so far as to say they're military in all but name.
So to examine the discussion froma different point of view, what evidence is there, other than direct quotes, that Starfleet is not?
What points were they aside from the use of the term "court martial" that was exclusive to a formal military even in real life and do not just as well apply to paramilitary services like the (inactive) UN peacekeeping force? Add to that the repeated point told by the medium itself that Starfleet is not a military organization (It was brought fore in the TMP era, TNG, DS9 and the recent movies) plus the knowledge why they chose to include this in the shows and movies in the first place I never had to create a "pro-con" list for myself, I simply got it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
There's been a pretty long list of things posted that suggest Starfleet is military. I'd go so far as to say they're military in all but name.
So to examine the discussion froma different point of view, what evidence is there, other than direct quotes, that Starfleet is not?
Why do you exclude quotes? If you exclude quotes, there has also never been a court martial, because you need to quote someone to say a hearing is actually called a martial court, and not a disciplinary hearing, or a regular court case?
I said "direct quotes" not quotes. Gold star for pedantry though.
The point here is "show, don't tell". In what ways does Starfleet ACT non-military?
There's been a pretty long list of things posted that suggest Starfleet is military. I'd go so far as to say they're military in all but name.
So to examine the discussion froma different point of view, what evidence is there, other than direct quotes, that Starfleet is not?
What points were they aside from the use of the term "court martial" that was exclusive to a formal military even in real life and do not just as well apply to paramilitary services like the (inactive) UN peacekeeping force? Add to that the repeated point told by the medium itself that Starfleet is not a military organization (It was brought fore in the TMP era, TNG, DS9 and the recent movies) plus the knowledge why they chose to include this in the shows and movies in the first place I never had to create a "pro-con" list for myself, I simply got it.
For another example, I previously presented the First Battle of Chintoka. That was very much an aggressive invasion of another race's territory.
besides the fact that a military would NEVER allow children aboard their flagship, especially when said flagship is on active duty?
Given that they're all children of personnel stationed on the ship, and that some were BORN there?
RW military bases can and do have housing for families. US Navy ships don't, but that seems to be more related to them not having room for medical staff equipped for treating children. Also, US Navy usually doesn't station people on a ship more than a year at a time. Starfleet regularly does. Kirk even said it in the TOS opening credits. Him and his crew were planning to be in deep space for several years.
(...)For another example, I previously presented the First Battle of Chintoka. That was very much an aggressive invasion of another race's territory.(..)
And I replied to that previously as well. We don't know the first thing about the UFPs policies and legal definitions so I am restricted to argue like this: The UFP is a pacifist society that abolished it's individual member world's militaries in favour of a general "all purpose" Starfleet that takes on defensive function if need be but is, ideologically, not a military organization. In the dominion war they had to act due to the prospect of losing more systems and added their ships to a joint operation to invade enemy territory because it seemed favourable to go on in defence and eventually lose. The use of non-military combatants on foreign territory isn't even unheared of today although a huge legal issue, which is why I said we lack this kind of information to really go into the details. Since Starfleets acts in lieu of a formal military it wouldn't make sense for them to not take on all it's functions inclduing operations in foreign territory. It wasn't as if the UFP was expanding it's own territory via military conquest at Chin'Toka, mind you - this would indeed be uncharacteristic for both the UFP and the definition given of what Starfleet does.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
You do like insulting other peoples "vision" or whatnot it seems.
Regardless, I certainly can't be told up is down, black is white or the military is not a military. A work can't consistently show a military organization, then have someone say "we're not military" and expect the audience to believe it.
I did not insult anyone at any point, but if you say your fiction has to follow real life to the letter then there's not much room for fiction. That's not an insult, it's a fact You simply seem to lack the imagination to accept that a science-fiction show portrays elements you may know in real life in different contexts, other people don't. But that's - again - not an insult, that's just different ways of looking at things.
You are still repeating the insult. I do not lack any imagination. Star Trek clearly portrays Starfleet as the Federation's military and I refuse to accept the unsupported claims of characters who say it isn't just because they say so.
It seems plausible the issue is a confusion between the words "military" (a state's armed forces) and "militarism" (political ideology prioritising a strong military and it's aggressive use), the former of which applies to Starfleet and the latter which does not.
EDIT: I am not trying to position myself "better" or "worse" as well. I just wrote in another thread how proposterous the whole "augment virus" storyline of ENT was. I think a lot of canon in Star Trek is stupid. But it's still canon, I still know what the writers were going for and I still (have to) accept what the medium tells me, even if I disagree with it
I suppose you would (have to) accept a dude in a red shirt telling you his shirt is blue, too?
I don't.
Because I have enough imagination to realize some things people say are not necessarily true, even if the script doesn't spoon-feed that realization to me. People can be mistaken, misinformed, they can express opinions or wishful thinking that isn't accurate to reality, they can even lie on purpose. And despite what you seem to think, they can do these things even in fiction, without explicitly informing the audience of it.
Calling Starfleet "not a military" may be considered politically correct in the Federation, it may a popular opinion, it may be the "official truth," some or all of the people saying it may even honestly believe it. But none of that makes it actual fact.
(...)
Because I have enough imagination to realize some things people say are not necessarily true, even if the script doesn't spoon-feed that realization to me. People can be mistaken, misinformed, they can express opinions or wishful thinking that isn't accurate to reality, they can even lie on purpose. And despite what you seem to think, they can do these things even in fiction, without explicitly informing the audience of it.
(...)
Indeed, so you have the ability to watch a show two times and see a completely different story the second time since one of the time you just assume everybody lies. I envy you
Seriously, where is the punchline of characters (and a entire movie) to "lie" about something that is never of any consequence and never leads to some reveal or conclusion? Because that is how a lie or deception in fiction works. Yes, you can pull a "Moffat" and at some point go "Haha! I lied all along!" (which is objectively bad writing) but even then the whole thing has a resolution which int his case it doesn't. But for ease of the argument, let's conclude it and we agree to disagree
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Indeed, so you have the ability to watch a show two times and see a completely different story the second time since one of the time you just assume everybody lies. I envy you
Seriously, where is the punchline of characters (and a entire movie) to "lie" about something that is never of any consequence and never leads to some reveal or conclusion? Because that is how a lie or deception in fiction works.
Why does it have to be a lie?
At any rate, You still didn't answer the question I posed earlier. Perhaps if I rephrase it it'll be easier to answer?
You have presented testimony from several witnesses that Starfleet is not a military. What will you be using as corroborating evidence?
At any rate, You still didn't answer the question I posed earlier. Perhaps if I rephrase it it'll be easier to answer?
You have presented testimony from several witnesses that Starfleet is not a military. What will you be using as corroborating evidence?
Even call it an opinion - they have no reason to make such an statement in any of the cases as it's never followed up upon.
My "evidence" as you call it is in this very thread. I really do not want to write the same stuff in the same thread for a third or fourth time (and a fifteenth time or so since I'm in these forums?). I like discussing Star Trek canon, I really do, but this is no fun to me any more.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
"My view" is the english language. I can't honestly disagree with the "philosophy" behind pretending Starfleet's not a military. If such a philosophy exists (beyond "military is bad, mm'kay"), I don't know what it is. But I can disagree with the factual basis of it, because there is none.
WOW on the last image. That is a pretty ship. I would 100% buy that.
Since I can piece together the necessary information I would assume you can do so as well. Other than that I can just say that you have a pretty bleak vision on fiction assuming that nothing can be told that works out different than real life.
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My character Tsin'xing
That is absolutely true, however you would use literary or in this case cinematic elements to indicate a deception. In the case at hoof it is very clear that none of this is the case and that trying to declare it a "singular opinion" is grasping at straws since, again, even if you'd dismiss everything before Beyond, it was the plot of the entire movie.
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Regardless, I certainly can't be told up is down, black is white or the military is not a military. A work can't consistently show a military organization, then have someone say "we're not military" and expect the audience to believe it.
I did not insult anyone at any point, but if you say your fiction has to follow real life to the letter then there's not much room for fiction. That's not an insult, it's a fact
EDIT: I am not trying to position myself "better" or "worse" as well. I just wrote in another thread how proposterous the whole "augment virus" storyline of ENT was. I think a lot of canon in Star Trek is stupid. But it's still canon, I still know what the writers were going for and I still (have to) accept what the medium tells me, even if I disagree with it
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My character Tsin'xing
You say that, but in this case Trek is largely consistent. If you hang up on "they call it court martial and thus must be a military organization" that is you calling it proposterous. I say "court martial is used in a way simply to describe a Starfleet exclusive court" - it does not interfere with "not a military organization" remarks at all (because it is a alternative universe in a future with a organization we don't have an equivalent today in our not intergalactic federation encompassing world). To me there is no conflict in continuity in that regard in the entirety of Star Trek. There are a number of conflicts mind you, especially technology is (of course) vastly different in TOS than it is in TNG and beyond and sometimes doing thing A is possible and suddenly it's not. These hick-ups do exist - in this case though, I do not see it at all.
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So to examine the discussion froma different point of view, what evidence is there, other than direct quotes, that Starfleet is not?
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
What points were they aside from the use of the term "court martial" that was exclusive to a formal military even in real life and do not just as well apply to paramilitary services like the (inactive) UN peacekeeping force? Add to that the repeated point told by the medium itself that Starfleet is not a military organization (It was brought fore in the TMP era, TNG, DS9 and the recent movies) plus the knowledge why they chose to include this in the shows and movies in the first place I never had to create a "pro-con" list for myself, I simply got it.
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The point here is "show, don't tell". In what ways does Starfleet ACT non-military? For another example, I previously presented the First Battle of Chintoka. That was very much an aggressive invasion of another race's territory. Given that they're all children of personnel stationed on the ship, and that some were BORN there?
RW military bases can and do have housing for families. US Navy ships don't, but that seems to be more related to them not having room for medical staff equipped for treating children. Also, US Navy usually doesn't station people on a ship more than a year at a time. Starfleet regularly does. Kirk even said it in the TOS opening credits. Him and his crew were planning to be in deep space for several years.
My character Tsin'xing
And I replied to that previously as well. We don't know the first thing about the UFPs policies and legal definitions so I am restricted to argue like this: The UFP is a pacifist society that abolished it's individual member world's militaries in favour of a general "all purpose" Starfleet that takes on defensive function if need be but is, ideologically, not a military organization. In the dominion war they had to act due to the prospect of losing more systems and added their ships to a joint operation to invade enemy territory because it seemed favourable to go on in defence and eventually lose. The use of non-military combatants on foreign territory isn't even unheared of today although a huge legal issue, which is why I said we lack this kind of information to really go into the details. Since Starfleets acts in lieu of a formal military it wouldn't make sense for them to not take on all it's functions inclduing operations in foreign territory. It wasn't as if the UFP was expanding it's own territory via military conquest at Chin'Toka, mind you - this would indeed be uncharacteristic for both the UFP and the definition given of what Starfleet does.
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It seems plausible the issue is a confusion between the words "military" (a state's armed forces) and "militarism" (political ideology prioritising a strong military and it's aggressive use), the former of which applies to Starfleet and the latter which does not.
I suppose you would (have to) accept a dude in a red shirt telling you his shirt is blue, too?
I don't.
Because I have enough imagination to realize some things people say are not necessarily true, even if the script doesn't spoon-feed that realization to me. People can be mistaken, misinformed, they can express opinions or wishful thinking that isn't accurate to reality, they can even lie on purpose. And despite what you seem to think, they can do these things even in fiction, without explicitly informing the audience of it.
Calling Starfleet "not a military" may be considered politically correct in the Federation, it may a popular opinion, it may be the "official truth," some or all of the people saying it may even honestly believe it. But none of that makes it actual fact.
Indeed, so you have the ability to watch a show two times and see a completely different story the second time since one of the time you just assume everybody lies. I envy you
Seriously, where is the punchline of characters (and a entire movie) to "lie" about something that is never of any consequence and never leads to some reveal or conclusion? Because that is how a lie or deception in fiction works. Yes, you can pull a "Moffat" and at some point go "Haha! I lied all along!" (which is objectively bad writing) but even then the whole thing has a resolution which int his case it doesn't. But for ease of the argument, let's conclude it and we agree to disagree
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At any rate, You still didn't answer the question I posed earlier. Perhaps if I rephrase it it'll be easier to answer?
You have presented testimony from several witnesses that Starfleet is not a military. What will you be using as corroborating evidence?
My character Tsin'xing
Even call it an opinion - they have no reason to make such an statement in any of the cases as it's never followed up upon.
My "evidence" as you call it is in this very thread. I really do not want to write the same stuff in the same thread for a third or fourth time (and a fifteenth time or so since I'm in these forums?). I like discussing Star Trek canon, I really do, but this is no fun to me any more.
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