I think it's the fact that they have let these kit modules and things like tactical initiative operate a certain way for so long, that nerfing them after people have gotten used to them for years is just too much, too late.
And hopefully by the end of this balance pass you have some idea how completely wrong you'd be in thinking that.
As designer, throwing your hands up and saying, 'yeah, we're just gonna grandfather every mistake we've ever made." is what you do when you're sunsetting a game. STO - miraculously - appears to actually be growing again with the introduction of the console versions. And to those people, these mistake haven't fossilized yet.
"completely wrong" - you sound like the moral authority. Who said they were mistakes? The game was working fine, some of the changes seem really unnecessary and some have made things completely useless, like stealth and kligat. I wouldn't call that fixing mistakes.
Call them whatever you like. Those abilities have still changed, and understanding why they changed - specifically why from a designer's perspective - is really the only way of convincing a designer to alter course. You need to understand that ANY change that makes it to the point we see it has MOMENTUM, and deflecting that momentum takes some actual skill and reasoning. For the two examples you chose to list, they may be viewed as mistakes after gaining real play data (kligat, almost certainly in this camp), or it may be a case where its now apparent there's a much better way to structure the code (we've seen numerous changes of this sort in the last 18 months and the stealth module is likely one of these). But NONE of those patch notes arise from "Oh, you know what? I just feel like poking my customers in the eye with a sharp stick." Because again, they really honest-and-for-true don't alter stuff on a whim.
And declaring "all is fine" when you have no idea what the game's metrics look like or announcing "its not outrageously OP so it's useless" is pretty much the calling cards of a player to ignore. You're basically proclaiming "I know nothing about the balance, internal workings, or health of the game, I just want my OPeasy-easy".
"completely wrong" - you sound like the moral authority. Who said they were mistakes? The game was working fine, some of the changes seem really unnecessary and some have made things completely useless, like stealth and kligat. I wouldn't call that fixing mistakes.
How many people were incorporating stealth modules into their builds? Even after the changes it's unquestionably not a min-max tool. There were still people who were effectively using it as an RP tool for stealthing but as far as combat balance goes there was MUCH to be desired from this ability. Others too, hence the rebalancing. Now stealth module is approaching a useful item you can build around. It'll never be a top power but as far as criterion go that's a pretty poor one. The point is that it's a much more functional power now.
You might invoke "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but you'd be fundamentally wrong in doing so (despite being a truism, it's not a true statement). Everything can be improved (see. "nothing is perfect"), especially with years of data to justify modifications.
Also, Kligat is now roughly on par with Repulsor Burst and micro-torpedo launcher. It's useful to those specifically wanting to bypass shields but at the expense of raw DPS, rather than being an automatic build choice. It's old form WAS a mistake. The update bright Kligat back into line with comparable powers. You're welcome to call it something else but facts are facts.
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So you look to other effects, that's why I suggested stuns/debuffs as opposed to raw power. In STO, stealth module will NEVER be as good as a direct min-max offensive build the game's just not setup to handle the sneaky approach on equal terms to open combat (see. that reference I made back to Deus Ex. You've got to approach the whole game's design from a different angle.) The problem is just making stealth module fun enough for players to approach as a rewarding combat style in its own right. That doesn't necessarily mean giving it parity, more "making it functional." Old stealth module wasn't very functional, new stealth module is more functional. It can be even better with a few extra tweaks, ex. more stealth time and some added effects to accentuate basic impact the sneaky approach can have on combat (ie. setting yourself up to make your enemy more vulnerable.)
It won't equal other builds, not without a LONG drive of new traits, modules, weapons, combat scenarios, ect. but it may be something that can be taken more seriously.
It's a cloaking effect for up to 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. Thats a short duration buff, not a playstyle. It's not bad. It does what it says it does. It's just... meh?
Ambush at Mk XIV Ultra Rare with minimal investment in Kit Performance is + 220% damage on next weapon attack. That's not min/max. That's what is listed on the ability. Stealth Module is +30% damage to the next weapon attack, and that bonus is only if you attack from "behind".
Stealth Module was changed from being a quirky power that was rarely used to some kind of buff that is outclassed by pretty much every other kit power. So, I guess it goes from not being used very often to... not being used very often? Yay for maintaining the status quo?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
You know... the only reason I kept a Stealth Module was for trolling around in a social zone in my StarCraft Ghost outfit because whenever I tried to use it in combat... I get shot. Didn't matter if it was Borg or anything... they still saw me with it active. Maybe it was my spec, but it just didn't work for me ever, so it became a social zone toy.
I like how people think the abilities that so outclass the new Stealth Module aren't under a microscope right this second. You can almost see the axe being sharpened if you know how to look. The giant live fire ground combat field test going on this weekend isn't a coincidence. It's a survey of the changes and identifying what's still running way under and over baseline. Tribble patch notes over the next two weeks ought to be fascinating. 'Cause you ARE going to see changes based specifically on this weekend's result taking precedence over "well, we've left it like that for 5 years..."
So you look to other effects, that's why I suggested stuns/debuffs as opposed to raw power. In STO, stealth module will NEVER be as good as a direct min-max offensive build the game's just not setup to handle the sneaky approach on equal terms to open combat (see. that reference I made back to Deus Ex. You've got to approach the whole game's design from a different angle.) The problem is just making stealth module fun enough for players to approach as a rewarding combat style in its own right. That doesn't necessarily mean giving it parity, more "making it functional." Old stealth module wasn't very functional, new stealth module is more functional. It can be even better with a few extra tweaks, ex. more stealth time and some added effects to accentuate basic impact the sneaky approach can have on combat (ie. setting yourself up to make your enemy more vulnerable.)
It won't equal other builds, not without a LONG drive of new traits, modules, weapons, combat scenarios, ect. but it may be something that can be taken more seriously.
It's a cloaking effect for up to 20 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. Thats a short duration buff, not a playstyle. It's not bad. It does what it says it does. It's just... meh?
Ambush at Mk XIV Ultra Rare with minimal investment in Kit Performance is + 220% damage on next weapon attack. That's not min/max. That's what is listed on the ability. Stealth Module is +30% damage to the next weapon attack, and that bonus is only if you attack from "behind".
Stealth Module was changed from being a quirky power that was rarely used to some kind of buff that is outclassed by pretty much every other kit power. So, I guess it goes from not being used very often to... not being used very often? Yay for maintaining the status quo?
It's a short duration buff that allows you to cloak. Cloaking has a strategic benefit, it allows you to move around without being shot at (I know this is simple but it's needed to reframe discussion away from min-maxing's linear focus). Ambush affords you a bit of that through a lesser stealth buff but IME it doesn't allow you to take a stealthy approach. It's most useful just as an opener. It doesn't change how you play. Cloaking does, if the duration is long enough so you can move from an encounter's customary "start point" to one that's better. For one, a flanking position but higher level strategy (ex. pincering with boffs/other players) comes into play too.
Any other stat should just accentuate this strategic benefit and compensates for not having some other module in there. The point is that looking at it simply as a damage buff is entirely the wrong way to go for a stealth module. If you bring it's DPS on par with other abilities you will end up with something utterly broken because those other abilities don't have the same strategic angles. They're just buffs.
So, in improving Stealth further the goal should be to try to emulate what you get from short term cloaks in games where pure tactics matter more (ex. Halo, Titanfall, which pretty much have this sort of thing bang-on) through MMO game mechanics. IE. debuffs (considering we're not working with the same kind of gameplay, the benefits have to be translated). This could include a simple damage resistance debuff, stuns, rooting, ability delays, and/or team-level buffs (encouraging players to setup their team as well as themselves when plotting a stealthed ambush.) That way, the stealth module can become the nucleus of a viable combat playstyle (just to the demands of STO PVE combat) rather than just a lesser buff or a quirky power you essentially have to RP to use.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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I like how people think the abilities that so outclass the new Stealth Module aren't under a microscope right this second. You can almost see the axe being sharpened if you know how to look. The giant live fire ground combat field test going on this weekend isn't a coincidence. It's a survey of the changes and identifying what's still running way under and over baseline. Tribble patch notes over the next two weeks ought to be fascinating. 'Cause you ARE going to see changes based specifically on this weekend's result taking precedence over "well, we've left it like that for 5 years..."
Photon Grenade outperformed Stealth module before the change. Photon Grenade outperforms it after the change. You gonna go after every grenade and tac buff?
It's silly. Stealth module was quirky. Now it's an out-of-place buff. If you like it, great! It's not bad. It's still better than Plasma Grenade!
It's a short duration buff that allows you to cloak. Cloaking has a strategic benefit, it allows you to move around without being shot at (I know this is simple but it's needed to reframe discussion away from min-maxing's linear focus).
20 seconds? If you want to backstab someone, isn't there an Intel power that teleports you behind someone?
I'm not trying to argue any RP angle here. If you want to be Solid Snake, go for it. 20 seconds of cloak is not going to accomplish much.
Maybe you could use it for a GTFO power? Sure they still shoot you for several seconds after you cloak, but they stop eventually.
It's why the commandment is "Never Nerf Anything," because it ruins stuff that people like.
People like heroin too, so maybe 'your unlimited instant gratification delight' might not be the best yardstick to measure things by. Certainly its NOT any maxim guiding the actual process that's occurring. So I guess those who cling to it can look forward to both disappointment and a severe handicap in phrasing any sort of argument/request that might resonate with the Devs enough to result in desired changes.
That's really the fundamental difference here - I'm trying to hlep people get what they want and you're trying to incite them to behavior that WON'T get them what they want.
Photon Grenade outperformed Stealth module before the change. Photon Grenade outperforms it after the change. You gonna go after every grenade and tac buff?
Did you see how many changes there have been already? You might not want to assume the answer to that question is anything but "yes".
Don't think for a moment they aren't reviewing EVERYTHING during this weekends invitational food fight. Every skill pressed is being counted. Because when you shake stuff up after so long, you often shake it all up at the same time instead of stringing it out over 3-4 passes.
20 seconds? If you want to backstab someone, isn't there an Intel power that teleports you behind someone?
Other way around, there's an intel power that lets you teleport someone directly in front of you. And from experience with other things a 20second cloak can certainly be enough time to move around one engagement and buff up a shot. What that gets you over something like trajectory bending is a little more control over exactly how that plays out and pincer maneuvering (which can break up enemies, disperse enemy fire, and give one of the two sides flanking at all times).
Still, instantly vaporizing all targets with trajectory bending and a piercing beam rifle will always win out but the point isn't to create something that you can justify in terms of DPS alone but something that's fun in its own right (a la active camo fun in Halo. It's more than just an RP tool, it's a new avenue of integrated gameplay. You can take the rocket if you want but if you want to have more elaborate fun the sneaky option's available.)
Maybe you could use it for a GTFO power? Sure they still shoot you for several seconds after you cloak, but they stop eventually.
That's pretty much the active rep power from the Terran task force reputation. It includes a smoke screen too. Stealth module is stuck in the niche of "offensive cloaking."
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
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Did you see how many changes there have been already? You might not want to assume the answer to that question is anything but "yes".
Don't think for a moment they aren't reviewing EVERYTHING during this weekends invitational food fight. Every skill pressed is being counted. Because when you shake stuff up after so long, you often shake it all up at the same time instead of stringing it out over 3-4 passes.
The changes so far seem to be related PvP or qued content stuff. None of it stops me from soloing a V-Rex in seconds. This weird arena is not going to replicate those conditions either, since my buff rotation is completely different.
The arena is more of a microcosm of space, AoE weapons and powers dominate, as well as low cooldown powers. I don't have my BoFFs to lean on for heals and additional buffs. Heck, I changed my setup just FOR the arena event, so their numbers are already off, since it isn't the kit I usually equip.
At best, the ground changes regarding Tacs will be "meh". At worst, I just won't bother with qued content and will stick to the Battlezones.
So, for the "playstyle" and "Social zone toy" crowds... with the new module work better for you if the stealth duration was unlimited out of combat?
Out of combat, I would like the duration unlimited. Yes, I am one of those roleplayers. A lot of fun as a social tool. Offered an additional element as a spy/assassin/saboteur/scout for times. Also, I could pop into stealth, and have a noncombat pet run around like a stray, interacting with people. Or have a kid character be sneaky with pranks.
It also offered something for people using melee, or the patient opportunist playstyle. *raises his hand shamelessly again* Unless you used the Mortal Kombat Scorpion pull kit module, or Lunge, it provided a means to creep up behind something/someone, and stab. Or use Biotoxin Injection.
I do not know how to improve Stealth Module. I don't want it to become the "next hotness," but an out of combat unlimited duration would be nice.
I agree, an out of combat unlimited duration would be a perfect fix... It would allow for the rp/scouting and strategic positioning aspects etc at the same time making it a non exploitable ability per se. I believe that would work as a change without spoiling the fun of it.
It would also then allow for the new dynamic, of the quick cloak and attack while in combat. If it was done that way it'd actually be a marked improvement on the original Stealth Module
I do not know how to improve Stealth Module. I don't want it to become the "next hotness," but an out of combat unlimited duration would be nice.
"New hotness" does not automatically mean "I win". See the polaron turret thread. If Cryptic can change Stealth module to accommodate new playstyles, I'm all for it. Current changes make it seem like one more tool in the toolbox, rather than a separate playstyle.
That tool seems like a pogo stick, but we play in a room with a low ceiling...
It would also then allow for the new dynamic, of the quick cloak and attack while in combat. If it was done that way it'd actually be a marked improvement on the original Stealth Module
Enemies don't stop shooting you for a few seconds after you cloak in ground combat. Cryptic should probably fix that if they intend a "quick cloak while in combat". The whole mechanic is very clunky. You have to wait for your opponents to stop shooting, then move around behind them. By that point, my Boffs or teammates have already murdered everyone.
This change feels more like a PvP thing than an PvE thing. Was the old Stealth module an issue in PvP?
many of these ground changes seem to be things that wont overly impact, for better or worse, pve/solo game play on pc? which by my minuscule powers of speculative reasonlity, lead me to the confusion that.. we all the pc-hamsters, are churning the training wheels, for changes that would seem more in line, for players with a preference for consoles and a desire to pvp from the comfort of an armchair/beanbag/bed/toilet? or is that just an overreactionary manifestation in my thinking?
I agree, an out of combat unlimited duration would be a perfect fix...
No, it wouldn't for the simple reason that an unlimited out of combat cloak is entirely equivalent to an unlimited cloak. You are out of combat until you take that first shot, afterwhich cloaking is a (generally) moot point.
This is not a compromise, it's just giving everything back to the RP audience at the expense of those who want this thing to become a stronger tool for gameplay (since it's hard to justify further gameplay refinements if we take it that this is something that has to exist outside of gameplay because of how badly implemented the old module was). That aspect relies on a limited cloak adding constraint you have to work around in setting yourself up for an ambush. Just take cloaking in just about every other video game out there. If you didn't have to worry about the timer in Halo/Titanfall or your battery meter running out in Deus Ex then what do you have to think about in using the cloak? Just waltz over to your ideal spot and take as long as you like setting up.
No effort, no fun, just do what you like. This discussion increasingly feels like having to justify why games don't have a no-clip mode anymore. Whatever else you may personally be able to project onto unlimited cloak, it has much less depth than the limited variety. Cryptic should work to refine Stealth Module with constraint specifically in mind, and built it specifically as a combat tool rather than a purely social item (which makes no sense for a kit module to be).
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,595Community Moderator
No, it wouldn't for the simple reason that an unlimited out of combat cloak is entirely equivalent to an unlimited cloak. You are out of combat until you take that first shot, afterwhich cloaking is a (generally) moot point.
I think what they're trying to say is outside of combat missions, like on ESD or a Bridge where there is no combat. Kinda like how the Shard of Possibilities functions slightly different in a social zone. In a social zone, the Shard still creates two clones, but they dance when not moving. Outside of a social zone they don't, and are fully capable of fighting.
I think what they're trying to say is outside of combat missions, like on ESD or a Bridge where there is no combat. Kinda like how the Shard of Possibilities functions slightly different in a social zone. In a social zone, the Shard still creates two clones, but they dance when not moving. Outside of a social zone they don't, and are fully capable of fighting.
Okay, I can see that as being more workable. But it should probably be said that NPC's exhibiting a new idle behavior may not necessarily mean that Cryptic can easily program in two different modes for one kit module based on social map distinction. Depending on that answer, it might be necessary to make a new social map device to get the RP cloak function (that's up for a dev to say.) For a kit module, the priority should be to make it balanced for combat first, ancillary social functions if possible.
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I had so much fun with Stealth Module that I basically built an entire character around it! Now she's pretty much ruined. Fun: Sneaking around on Kobali Prime and Nukara Prime. If they were freaked out about people using it as an escape from combat, a better solution would have been to make it so you can only go into shroud OUT of combat. That way, when you fight, you have to deal with fighting until it's over. You still get to sneak around the whole map and the positioning advantage, but once you engage you're ENGAGED until the fight is OVER. By the way, tweaking Stealth Module this way would have effectively made it impossible to use in the Arena of Sompek since you're under Red Alert from the moment you step in until it ends! Use Ambush as a temporary combat escape instead, you only have a few seconds before it fades and it has an obnoxious cooldown time which is why I never used it. Remember, one of the points they made in the revamp was they wanted to eliminate "always this, never that" which is how I felt about stealth vs. ambush. But if you can't use stealth to escape from combat then the modules have completely different functions, no?
You can't really say they won't tweak this again. Remember how mine pattern alpha three disappeared from the game for a real long time then came back last year? If they really want to differentiate these two modules then perhaps they will take this advice, because this little mod has made a lot of waves and made a lot of people angry. Including me, but I'm controlling my emotions at the moment. To reiterate, the fix for this is really simple: let stealth be stealth again instead of a weak ambush field, but make it so you can't use it to escape combat, only ENTER combat. Reserve the TEMPORARY escape functionality for ambush field. This preserves game balance, allows the modules to have unique functions and still lets people do a bunch of sneaking around. Which is FUN!!! And fun is what it's all about. I made a series of videos where I snuck around on Nukara Prime just to show the place off, honestly I think it's a pretty cool and underrated zone. Let's say under this new proposal, Tabby Cox the Queen of Stealth would need BOTH MODULES if she wanted to sneak around like a Jem'Hadar in the show AND STILL BE ABLE TO ESCAPE FROM ENEMIES USING SHROUD which I get a feeling is what pissed off the PVP crowd the most. And yeah, I abused stealth module a few times in PVP so I can see where this is coming from. It was too easy. Remove the ability to use it to disengage once combat has started, and in my humble opinion it becomes balanced again.
And if somebody really wants to take up two kit slots so they can use stealth to infinitely prowl and ambush to escape from combat, more power to them. I wouldn't do it, it's wasteful as far as I'm concerned and far better powers could go into that extra slot. It would mean the full ability now takes up two slots, and if you're that dedicated to it then more power to you.
Also, make sure ambush field does NOT eliminate red alert status! You go invisible for a few seconds, but remain technically in combat. And slowed, like in stealth module, so you can't just run away and lose red alert that way.
I don't know if anybody will listen to me, but this proposal seems pretty balanced to me.
In other words, just grey it out while combat is on and don't let it come back until combat is over. That takes care of the whole PVP abuse problem, which I'm pretty sure is at the root of what happened. It was too easy to abuse it in PVP. Sneak around the map, decloak and hit, then ten seconds later zap away and heal yourself, rinse and repeat. Pretty broken, in truth. Grey it out during combat and that goes away, problem solved.
They completely ruined the stealth module as far as I'm concerned. It may have been limited in functionality, but it did one thing really, really well (i.e. hide you and enable you to sneak around undetected until you deactivated it). I enjoyed it and found it very useful at times. Now I have even less reason to even bother coming back to this game anymore.
many of these ground changes seem to be things that wont overly impact, for better or worse, pve/solo game play on pc?
So, far, yes. Changing the minimum cooldowns of Captain Powers does not really effect most PvE or solo play. Changing Tactical Initiative to self-buff only does reduce it's value in a team environment, but with all the sources of Kit Efficiency (perhaps a reason to actually use crafted kits?) it should not take too long to adjust.
which by my minuscule powers of speculative reasonlity, lead me to the confusion that.. we all the pc-hamsters, are churning the training wheels, for changes that would seem more in line, for players with a preference for consoles and a desire to pvp from the comfort of an armchair/beanbag/bed/toilet? or is that just an overreactionary manifestation in my thinking?
I think so?
I'm just trying to guess why they would pick Stealth module over Hypospray - Melorazine if they were doing a PvE focused kit power revamp.
I had so much fun with Stealth Module that I basically built an entire character around it! Now she's pretty much ruined. Fun: Sneaking around on Kobali Prime and Nukara Prime. If they were freaked out about people using it as an escape from combat, a better solution would have been to make it so you can only go into shroud OUT of combat. That way, when you fight, you have to deal with fighting until it's over. You still get to sneak around the whole map and the positioning advantage, but once you engage you're ENGAGED until the fight is OVER. By the way, tweaking Stealth Module this way would have effectively made it impossible to use in the Arena of Sompek since you're under Red Alert from the moment you step in until it ends! Use Ambush as a temporary combat escape instead, you only have a few seconds before it fades and it has an obnoxious cooldown time which is why I never used it. Remember, one of the points they made in the revamp was they wanted to eliminate "always this, never that" which is how I felt about stealth vs. ambush. But if you can't use stealth to escape from combat then the modules have completely different functions, no?
You can't really say they won't tweak this again. Remember how mine pattern alpha three disappeared from the game for a real long time then came back last year? If they really want to differentiate these two modules then perhaps they will take this advice, because this little mod has made a lot of waves and made a lot of people angry. Including me, but I'm controlling my emotions at the moment. To reiterate, the fix for this is really simple: let stealth be stealth again instead of a weak ambush field, but make it so you can't use it to escape combat, only ENTER combat. Reserve the TEMPORARY escape functionality for ambush field. This preserves game balance, allows the modules to have unique functions and still lets people do a bunch of sneaking around. Which is FUN!!! And fun is what it's all about. I made a series of videos where I snuck around on Nukara Prime just to show the place off, honestly I think it's a pretty cool and underrated zone. Let's say under this new proposal, Tabby Cox the Queen of Stealth would need BOTH MODULES if she wanted to sneak around like a Jem'Hadar in the show AND STILL BE ABLE TO ESCAPE FROM ENEMIES USING SHROUD which I get a feeling is what pissed off the PVP crowd the most. And yeah, I abused stealth module a few times in PVP so I can see where this is coming from. It was too easy. Remove the ability to use it to disengage once combat has started, and in my humble opinion it becomes balanced again.
And if somebody really wants to take up two kit slots so they can use stealth to infinitely prowl and ambush to escape from combat, more power to them. I wouldn't do it, it's wasteful as far as I'm concerned and far better powers could go into that extra slot. It would mean the full ability now takes up two slots, and if you're that dedicated to it then more power to you.
Also, make sure ambush field does NOT eliminate red alert status! You go invisible for a few seconds, but remain technically in combat. And slowed, like in stealth module, so you can't just run away and lose red alert that way.
I don't know if anybody will listen to me, but this proposal seems pretty balanced to me.
You put it far better than I did... I totally agree and this is how it should have been done, and the point I was trying to get at, well said
Comments
"completely wrong" - you sound like the moral authority. Who said they were mistakes? The game was working fine, some of the changes seem really unnecessary and some have made things completely useless, like stealth and kligat. I wouldn't call that fixing mistakes.
And declaring "all is fine" when you have no idea what the game's metrics look like or announcing "its not outrageously OP so it's useless" is pretty much the calling cards of a player to ignore. You're basically proclaiming "I know nothing about the balance, internal workings, or health of the game, I just want my OPeasy-easy".
How many people were incorporating stealth modules into their builds? Even after the changes it's unquestionably not a min-max tool. There were still people who were effectively using it as an RP tool for stealthing but as far as combat balance goes there was MUCH to be desired from this ability. Others too, hence the rebalancing. Now stealth module is approaching a useful item you can build around. It'll never be a top power but as far as criterion go that's a pretty poor one. The point is that it's a much more functional power now.
You might invoke "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but you'd be fundamentally wrong in doing so (despite being a truism, it's not a true statement). Everything can be improved (see. "nothing is perfect"), especially with years of data to justify modifications.
Also, Kligat is now roughly on par with Repulsor Burst and micro-torpedo launcher. It's useful to those specifically wanting to bypass shields but at the expense of raw DPS, rather than being an automatic build choice. It's old form WAS a mistake. The update bright Kligat back into line with comparable powers. You're welcome to call it something else but facts are facts.
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Ambush at Mk XIV Ultra Rare with minimal investment in Kit Performance is + 220% damage on next weapon attack. That's not min/max. That's what is listed on the ability. Stealth Module is +30% damage to the next weapon attack, and that bonus is only if you attack from "behind".
Stealth Module was changed from being a quirky power that was rarely used to some kind of buff that is outclassed by pretty much every other kit power. So, I guess it goes from not being used very often to... not being used very often? Yay for maintaining the status quo?
It's a short duration buff that allows you to cloak. Cloaking has a strategic benefit, it allows you to move around without being shot at (I know this is simple but it's needed to reframe discussion away from min-maxing's linear focus). Ambush affords you a bit of that through a lesser stealth buff but IME it doesn't allow you to take a stealthy approach. It's most useful just as an opener. It doesn't change how you play. Cloaking does, if the duration is long enough so you can move from an encounter's customary "start point" to one that's better. For one, a flanking position but higher level strategy (ex. pincering with boffs/other players) comes into play too.
Any other stat should just accentuate this strategic benefit and compensates for not having some other module in there. The point is that looking at it simply as a damage buff is entirely the wrong way to go for a stealth module. If you bring it's DPS on par with other abilities you will end up with something utterly broken because those other abilities don't have the same strategic angles. They're just buffs.
So, in improving Stealth further the goal should be to try to emulate what you get from short term cloaks in games where pure tactics matter more (ex. Halo, Titanfall, which pretty much have this sort of thing bang-on) through MMO game mechanics. IE. debuffs (considering we're not working with the same kind of gameplay, the benefits have to be translated). This could include a simple damage resistance debuff, stuns, rooting, ability delays, and/or team-level buffs (encouraging players to setup their team as well as themselves when plotting a stealthed ambush.) That way, the stealth module can become the nucleus of a viable combat playstyle (just to the demands of STO PVE combat) rather than just a lesser buff or a quirky power you essentially have to RP to use.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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It's silly. Stealth module was quirky. Now it's an out-of-place buff. If you like it, great! It's not bad. It's still better than Plasma Grenade!
I'm not trying to argue any RP angle here. If you want to be Solid Snake, go for it. 20 seconds of cloak is not going to accomplish much.
Maybe you could use it for a GTFO power? Sure they still shoot you for several seconds after you cloak, but they stop eventually.
People like heroin too, so maybe 'your unlimited instant gratification delight' might not be the best yardstick to measure things by. Certainly its NOT any maxim guiding the actual process that's occurring. So I guess those who cling to it can look forward to both disappointment and a severe handicap in phrasing any sort of argument/request that might resonate with the Devs enough to result in desired changes.
That's really the fundamental difference here - I'm trying to hlep people get what they want and you're trying to incite them to behavior that WON'T get them what they want.
Did you see how many changes there have been already? You might not want to assume the answer to that question is anything but "yes".
Don't think for a moment they aren't reviewing EVERYTHING during this weekends invitational food fight. Every skill pressed is being counted. Because when you shake stuff up after so long, you often shake it all up at the same time instead of stringing it out over 3-4 passes.
Other way around, there's an intel power that lets you teleport someone directly in front of you. And from experience with other things a 20second cloak can certainly be enough time to move around one engagement and buff up a shot. What that gets you over something like trajectory bending is a little more control over exactly how that plays out and pincer maneuvering (which can break up enemies, disperse enemy fire, and give one of the two sides flanking at all times).
Still, instantly vaporizing all targets with trajectory bending and a piercing beam rifle will always win out but the point isn't to create something that you can justify in terms of DPS alone but something that's fun in its own right (a la active camo fun in Halo. It's more than just an RP tool, it's a new avenue of integrated gameplay. You can take the rocket if you want but if you want to have more elaborate fun the sneaky option's available.)
That's pretty much the active rep power from the Terran task force reputation. It includes a smoke screen too. Stealth module is stuck in the niche of "offensive cloaking."
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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The arena is more of a microcosm of space, AoE weapons and powers dominate, as well as low cooldown powers. I don't have my BoFFs to lean on for heals and additional buffs. Heck, I changed my setup just FOR the arena event, so their numbers are already off, since it isn't the kit I usually equip.
At best, the ground changes regarding Tacs will be "meh". At worst, I just won't bother with qued content and will stick to the Battlezones.
Except the deluge of lock boxes of course...
Out of combat, I would like the duration unlimited. Yes, I am one of those roleplayers. A lot of fun as a social tool. Offered an additional element as a spy/assassin/saboteur/scout for times. Also, I could pop into stealth, and have a noncombat pet run around like a stray, interacting with people. Or have a kid character be sneaky with pranks.
It also offered something for people using melee, or the patient opportunist playstyle. *raises his hand shamelessly again* Unless you used the Mortal Kombat Scorpion pull kit module, or Lunge, it provided a means to creep up behind something/someone, and stab. Or use Biotoxin Injection.
I do not know how to improve Stealth Module. I don't want it to become the "next hotness," but an out of combat unlimited duration would be nice.
It would also then allow for the new dynamic, of the quick cloak and attack while in combat. If it was done that way it'd actually be a marked improvement on the original Stealth Module
That tool seems like a pogo stick, but we play in a room with a low ceiling... Enemies don't stop shooting you for a few seconds after you cloak in ground combat. Cryptic should probably fix that if they intend a "quick cloak while in combat". The whole mechanic is very clunky. You have to wait for your opponents to stop shooting, then move around behind them. By that point, my Boffs or teammates have already murdered everyone.
This change feels more like a PvP thing than an PvE thing. Was the old Stealth module an issue in PvP?
many of these ground changes seem to be things that wont overly impact, for better or worse, pve/solo game play on pc? which by my minuscule powers of speculative reasonlity, lead me to the confusion that.. we all the pc-hamsters, are churning the training wheels, for changes that would seem more in line, for players with a preference for consoles and a desire to pvp from the comfort of an armchair/beanbag/bed/toilet? or is that just an overreactionary manifestation in my thinking?
No, it wouldn't for the simple reason that an unlimited out of combat cloak is entirely equivalent to an unlimited cloak. You are out of combat until you take that first shot, afterwhich cloaking is a (generally) moot point.
This is not a compromise, it's just giving everything back to the RP audience at the expense of those who want this thing to become a stronger tool for gameplay (since it's hard to justify further gameplay refinements if we take it that this is something that has to exist outside of gameplay because of how badly implemented the old module was). That aspect relies on a limited cloak adding constraint you have to work around in setting yourself up for an ambush. Just take cloaking in just about every other video game out there. If you didn't have to worry about the timer in Halo/Titanfall or your battery meter running out in Deus Ex then what do you have to think about in using the cloak? Just waltz over to your ideal spot and take as long as you like setting up.
No effort, no fun, just do what you like. This discussion increasingly feels like having to justify why games don't have a no-clip mode anymore. Whatever else you may personally be able to project onto unlimited cloak, it has much less depth than the limited variety. Cryptic should work to refine Stealth Module with constraint specifically in mind, and built it specifically as a combat tool rather than a purely social item (which makes no sense for a kit module to be).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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I think what they're trying to say is outside of combat missions, like on ESD or a Bridge where there is no combat. Kinda like how the Shard of Possibilities functions slightly different in a social zone. In a social zone, the Shard still creates two clones, but they dance when not moving. Outside of a social zone they don't, and are fully capable of fighting.
Okay, I can see that as being more workable. But it should probably be said that NPC's exhibiting a new idle behavior may not necessarily mean that Cryptic can easily program in two different modes for one kit module based on social map distinction. Depending on that answer, it might be necessary to make a new social map device to get the RP cloak function (that's up for a dev to say.) For a kit module, the priority should be to make it balanced for combat first, ancillary social functions if possible.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
You can't really say they won't tweak this again. Remember how mine pattern alpha three disappeared from the game for a real long time then came back last year? If they really want to differentiate these two modules then perhaps they will take this advice, because this little mod has made a lot of waves and made a lot of people angry. Including me, but I'm controlling my emotions at the moment. To reiterate, the fix for this is really simple: let stealth be stealth again instead of a weak ambush field, but make it so you can't use it to escape combat, only ENTER combat. Reserve the TEMPORARY escape functionality for ambush field. This preserves game balance, allows the modules to have unique functions and still lets people do a bunch of sneaking around. Which is FUN!!! And fun is what it's all about. I made a series of videos where I snuck around on Nukara Prime just to show the place off, honestly I think it's a pretty cool and underrated zone. Let's say under this new proposal, Tabby Cox the Queen of Stealth would need BOTH MODULES if she wanted to sneak around like a Jem'Hadar in the show AND STILL BE ABLE TO ESCAPE FROM ENEMIES USING SHROUD which I get a feeling is what pissed off the PVP crowd the most. And yeah, I abused stealth module a few times in PVP so I can see where this is coming from. It was too easy. Remove the ability to use it to disengage once combat has started, and in my humble opinion it becomes balanced again.
And if somebody really wants to take up two kit slots so they can use stealth to infinitely prowl and ambush to escape from combat, more power to them. I wouldn't do it, it's wasteful as far as I'm concerned and far better powers could go into that extra slot. It would mean the full ability now takes up two slots, and if you're that dedicated to it then more power to you.
Also, make sure ambush field does NOT eliminate red alert status! You go invisible for a few seconds, but remain technically in combat. And slowed, like in stealth module, so you can't just run away and lose red alert that way.
I don't know if anybody will listen to me, but this proposal seems pretty balanced to me.
I'm just trying to guess why they would pick Stealth module over Hypospray - Melorazine if they were doing a PvE focused kit power revamp.
You put it far better than I did... I totally agree and this is how it should have been done, and the point I was trying to get at, well said