I think one of the big problems is that our glimpses of the actual state of Bajor in DS9 were limited due to budget - making new sets is expensive. As such, rather than getting an impartial, objective view of the planet, and the Bajoran people, we instead primarily have secondhand recountings of the situation - which are, in turn, biased by the person saying them.
However, in Star Trek Online, we actually do have a chance to see how Bajorans act firsthand - while it's lost a lot of popularity ever since Delta Rising, the Undine Infiltration STF still gives an objective picture of how Bajorans behave. And it's not pretty.
The city is full of Bajoran 'civilians' who are heavily armed and armored. 'Civilians' who attack all other humanoids indiscriminately. They will wildly accuse Starfleet, Romulan and Klingon officers of all sorts of atrocities, and shoot them in the back unprovoked.
Bajorans will even attack firefighters. Firefighters who are in the middle of saving Bajoran homes.
When undine invaders are actively trying to kill their religious leaders and steal their most precious artifacts, one might expect the Bajorans to attempt to repel those invaders. That's a foolish assumption. Instead, Bajorans hate other humanoids so much that they actively aid the undine, spouting their xenophobic rhetoric all the while.
From the firsthand experience every captain can verify, it's clear that Bajorans are an irrationally aggressive species. They are physiologically incapable of giving an accurate summation of events - even events currently happening before their very eyes.
Their toxic Weltanschauung distorts everything they see, and I'm sure the distortion only gets worse over time. Doubtless, a few decades after the events of Undine Infiltraion, Bajorans will be talking about how gorn officers went around eating their children, vulcans pon farred everything in sight, and humans burned down their city and stole their orb. Killing thousands of innocent and completely unarmed civilians throughout, of course.
I will stress that - despite their firsthand accounts not being accurate sources of information - Bajorans are not 'dishonest' as a race - they simply have a legitimate difficulty understanding situations when under any amount of stress. Their extremely rigid caste system was probably created as a way to help contain these psychological quirks (I think 'deficiencies' is perhaps too judgmental a word), by giving each Bajoran an easy-to-understand place in the world, and ensuring that the only Bajorans who were trusted to practice violence are members of the Warrior Caste, psychologically trained for the role since birth.
> @psycholandlord said: > The Bajorans are nothing but filthy backwards savages who cried to the federation for help, claiming their subjugation was unjust despite their overt expansionism with those stupid primitive space sail boats. Cardassia brought them nothing but peace, enlightenment, and contentment but they spat in the face of this kindness with their cowardly bombings and idiot dogma. Then, when they finally get what they want and the federation offers them aid, they promptly start a doctrinal conflict and **** up what little of an economy their planet had even more then the Cardassian pull-out, ensuring that they were completely worthless to everyone, and if it weren't for the wormhole (the inhabitants of which the Bajorans, of course, decided were divinity, despite both the scientific answers for the lifeforms in question, as well as their complete disinterest in interacting with any Bajoran natives) the Bajorans likely would have been left to their own devices and allowed to nuke and/or starve themselves, ridding the galaxy of yet another menace. Alas, the federation is opportunistic and desired the lands of the Gamma Quadrant, thereby preventing such righteous justice from being enacted. > > Dukat was right. > > Free Bajor.
DS9 lost me in the 4th season. It got too religious and spiritual and the Bajorians were loud mouth "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG" bleep holes. They justified violence in the name of their religion and Star Fleet backed them up because of a mutual enemy. (sounds a lot like real life if you ask me.) That's why i fell in love with Voyager so quickly. It was back to science and skepticism and quick thinking by gritty officers. Bajorians just bring back sour memories with DS9 I guess.
Actually.... no. Their motive for wanting to shoot Cardassians was more like "we want the Cardassians to leave our planet and never come back". It had nothing to do with their religion. It makes a lot of sense to want to violently force an army of invaders to leave your home.
Ha, people are just jealous because the praised and mighty Cardasians got booted off-world by a bunch of spiritual, meditating, farming space sailors, who are normally more interested in scrolls and sowing crops than with fighting and who had little in the way of an armed force except for a few freedom fighters.
Guess the spoon-heads felt a bit embarrassed by it all....getting their behinds kicked by such a "primitive" culture!
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The use of special characters in Thread Subjects is copyrighted by a particular Fleet, so stop using them!!
The DS9 writers obviously got it all wrong. They wrote the fictitious Bajorans and Cardassians in a fictitious TV show completely at odds with the real life Bajorans and Cardassians.
Ernst Janning: Judge Haywood... the reason I asked you to come: Those people, those millions of people... I never knew it would come to that. You must believe it, You must believe it! Judge Dan Haywood: Herr Janning, it "came to that" the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent.
Other than posting about opening bajillions of Lockboxes and getting no ship, or the use of 'Memorial Spheres', starting Threads about Bajorans or Cardassians will NEVER end well.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
DS9 lost me in the 4th season. It got too religious and spiritual and the Bajorians were loud mouth "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG" bleep holes. They justified violence in the name of their religion and Star Fleet backed them up because of a mutual enemy. (sounds a lot like real life if you ask me.) That's why i fell in love with Voyager so quickly. It was back to science and skepticism and quick thinking by gritty officers. Bajorians just bring back sour memories with DS9 I guess.
Actually.... no. Their motive for wanting to shoot Cardassians was more like "we want the Cardassians to leave our planet and never come back". It had nothing to do with their religion. It makes a lot of sense to want to violently force an army of invaders to leave your home.
except they asked the Cardassians to come over. Not saying they aren't allowed to change their minds once they see the truth but the Cardassians weren't exactly invaders. And they didn't do anything unless the almighty profits said so and their are countless story arcs (including the major arc in the final few seasons) where the Bajorian powers that be manipulated "visions" and whatnot to justify their actions.
Folks like to talk about Duet and Galitep without remembering it was a prison labor camp. The only Bajorans there were terrorists and criminals.
The "criminal" in question was simply and efficient and effective administrator. Was he cruel to the prisoners? Perhaps, but do you not look away when your country mistreats its prisoners of war, simply because it is easier to ignore.
The Cardassian Union simply has more tolerance for a hardline approach to terrorism. Never forget that Duet is the story of Galitep told from the point of view of a file clerk with a caring heart, and third person accounts from an admitted Bajoran terrorist.
The file clerk was a kind man, outside of a position to know just what kind of prisoners Galitep held. And an admitted Bajoran terrorist with a history of rationalizing and justifying her terrorism recounting third party accounts is hardly a reliable source of accurate information.
You may want to claim that war crimes were committed at Galitep, but the Cardassian Union never signed an agreement prior to the occupation limiting their treatment of prisoners.
It's a matter of perspective, the Bajorans want to be seen as the victims, so they're all too happy to twist the story of Galitep, and of course, from a human perspective, the Federation would classify Galitep as a war crime, but Cardassia saw Galitep as an effective prison labor camp. No more, no less.
I think one of the big problems is that our glimpses of the actual state of Bajor in DS9 were limited due to budget - making new sets is expensive. As such, rather than getting an impartial, objective view of the planet, and the Bajoran people, we instead primarily have secondhand recountings of the situation - which are, in turn, biased by the person saying them.
However, in Star Trek Online, we actually do have a chance to see how Bajorans act firsthand - while it's lost a lot of popularity ever since Delta Rising, the Undine Infiltration STF still gives an objective picture of how Bajorans behave. And it's not pretty.
The city is full of Bajoran 'civilians' who are heavily armed and armored. 'Civilians' who attack all other humanoids indiscriminately. They will wildly accuse Starfleet, Romulan and Klingon officers of all sorts of atrocities, and shoot them in the back unprovoked.
Bajorans will even attack firefighters. Firefighters who are in the middle of saving Bajoran homes.
When undine invaders are actively trying to kill their religious leaders and steal their most precious artifacts, one might expect the Bajorans to attempt to repel those invaders. That's a foolish assumption. Instead, Bajorans hate other humanoids so much that they actively aid the undine, spouting their xenophobic rhetoric all the while.
From the firsthand experience every captain can verify, it's clear that Bajorans are an irrationally aggressive species. They are physiologically incapable of giving an accurate summation of events - even events currently happening before their very eyes.
Their toxic Weltanschauung distorts everything they see, and I'm sure the distortion only gets worse over time. Doubtless, a few decades after the events of Undine Infiltraion, Bajorans will be talking about how gorn officers went around eating their children, vulcans pon farred everything in sight, and humans burned down their city and stole their orb. Killing thousands of innocent and completely unarmed civilians throughout, of course.
I will stress that - despite their firsthand accounts not being accurate sources of information - Bajorans are not 'dishonest' as a race - they simply have a legitimate difficulty understanding situations when under any amount of stress. Their extremely rigid caste system was probably created as a way to help contain these psychological quirks (I think 'deficiencies' is perhaps too judgmental a word), by giving each Bajoran an easy-to-understand place in the world, and ensuring that the only Bajorans who were trusted to practice violence are members of the Warrior Caste, psychologically trained for the role since birth.
Maybe it is due to the fact that said "humanoids" beamed down during night, started accosting Bajorans minding their business and promptly started to beam them to custody without any warning or reason (and sometimes, sending innocents to custody due to blatant incompetency).
I'm not saying the Bajorans are all right in their actions during this event, as setting fire (though we never know if they're the ones causing them or the Undine to make things worse) and shooting an officer with the intention to kill are plain wrong.
BUT, both sides do objectionable actions and none is completely right or completely wrong. Plus, it doesn't help this happens less than a year after Starfleet and the Empire hastily relocated themselves after the take over of DS9 by the 2800.
Folks like to talk about Duet and Galitep without remembering it was a prison labor camp. The only Bajorans there were terrorists and criminals.
The "criminal" in question was simply and efficient and effective administrator.
[citation needed], and it'd better be a good one...
DS9 lost me in the 4th season. It got too religious and spiritual and the Bajorians were loud mouth "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG" bleep holes. They justified violence in the name of their religion and Star Fleet backed them up because of a mutual enemy. (sounds a lot like real life if you ask me.) That's why i fell in love with Voyager so quickly. It was back to science and skepticism and quick thinking by gritty officers. Bajorians just bring back sour memories with DS9 I guess.
Actually.... no. Their motive for wanting to shoot Cardassians was more like "we want the Cardassians to leave our planet and never come back". It had nothing to do with their religion. It makes a lot of sense to want to violently force an army of invaders to leave your home.
except they asked the Cardassians to come over. Not saying they aren't allowed to change their minds once they see the truth but the Cardassians weren't exactly invaders. And they didn't do anything unless the almighty prophets said so and their are countless story arcs (including the major arc in the final few seasons) where the Bajorian powers that be manipulated "visions" and whatnot to justify their actions.
The Bajorans didn't invite the Cardassians to occupy their planet. The prime universe Bajorans were(something like Talaxians) an excessively friendly race. They liked meeting new people. But there's a huge difference between trading with someone and conquering them so you can strip mine their planet... The Cardassian occupation of Bajor WAS an invasion.
I'm not saying the Bajorans are all right in their actions during this event, as setting fire (though we never know if they're the ones causing them or the Undine to make things worse) and shooting an officer with the intention to kill are plain wrong.
If you do it right.... You can complete the entire mission without shooting any actual Bajorans.
The Bajorans literally welcomed the Cardassians with open arms, and it wasn't until the Bajoran elite were stripped of their power by the introduction of a true post-scarcity society (thanks to Replicators) that the resistance began. Cardassian civilians and aid workers were targetted by Bajoran terrorists being used and manipulated by the old elite, and hopped up on the idea of being freedom fighters in a society that was finally about to know true freedom. All they did was sabotage Bajors progression into a true member of interstellar society, all because a few old wrinkle-nosed jackasses wanted to keep feeling proud of themselves. And of course, when Cardassia finally tired of spending innocent lives to uplift these moronic hicks, they take their replicators and energy reserves with them, and suddenly Bajor is without the resources and food it has grown used to, because hey, guess what? The Bajorans have no infrastructure because the only thing of note they have ever developed on their own was the most inefficient starship in existence. So they cry to the federation for help, and the federation obliges, in the spirit of unwarranted aggression towards Cardassia.
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
Folks like to talk about Duet and Galitep without remembering it was a prison labor camp. The only Bajorans there were terrorists and criminals.
The "criminal" in question was simply and efficient and effective administrator. Was he cruel to the prisoners? Perhaps, but do you not look away when your country mistreats its prisoners of war, simply because it is easier to ignore.
And without trying to get too much real world politics into it, I think this is what is dividing us.
In my understanding, a "prison labor camp" is a wrong start. Because you tend to want labor. Because nobody asks whether those interred are really terrorists or just bystanders happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No control by anything remotely independent - the Cardassians didn't have independent judiciary.
And I sure hope that you don't look away when your country mistreats prisoners of war, but instead voice your disapproval, because otherwise you'd lose everything that would have been you being "better" than your opponents. "My country, right or wrong" is - in my opinion - a very wrong way to judge things.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
This part I find erroneous as the actions on the dyson sphere happen decades later than the befriending of the bajorans.
If you claim that including bajoran terrorists into Starfleet weakened the resolve against war crimes and used said 'crimes' against voth civilian targets as proof it would be one thing. Better I think to examine Starfleet and the Federation of the time period versus a long span.
Looking at the Federation then. They have issues with the borg and the fleet is weak. The people do not see the hardships out there and want peace. And the Federation finished a war against the cardassians relatively recently. Further, actions with the cardassians showed they were rearming the borders with the Federation. And bombing federation interests while attempting to frame bajoran resistance fighters that did not actually have the means to reach those targets. All to have the Starfleet lure them out so they could be destroyed.
From those seeds did the Federation put its lot in with the bajorans. Right or wrong. But the cardassians did not leave much room to trust them. And that does not even get into the cardassian's interactions with the Klingon empire. Who were allies at the time the peace settlements were handed down. So it was an enemy of my enemy situation when they first got together.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Bajorans literally welcomed the Cardassians with open arms, and it wasn't until the Bajoran elite were stripped of their power by the introduction of a true post-scarcity society (thanks to Replicators) that the resistance began. Cardassian civilians and aid workers were targetted by Bajoran terrorists being used and manipulated by the old elite, and hopped up on the idea of being freedom fighters in a society that was finally about to know true freedom. All they did was sabotage Bajors progression into a true member of interstellar society, all because a few old wrinkle-nosed jackasses wanted to keep feeling proud of themselves. And of course, when Cardassia finally tired of spending innocent lives to uplift these moronic hicks, they take their replicators and energy reserves with them, and suddenly Bajor is without the resources and food it has grown used to, because hey, guess what? The Bajorans have no infrastructure because the only thing of note they have ever developed on their own was the most inefficient starship in existence. So they cry to the federation for help, and the federation obliges, in the spirit of unwarranted aggression towards Cardassia.
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
What Replicators? Deep Space 9 was originally built as an ore refining facility in 2346 to 2351. Then there was the Labor Camps to extract the ore and other precious resources. It is possible that the Bajoran Elite were stripped of their power and that is why the Bajorans rebelled, but it wasn't due to a true post-scarcity society caused by Replicators. Replicators must have not been common until just before 2364 (TNG Season 1) and it is likely that it took a few years after Replicators were developed for Cardassians and the rest of the major interstellar powers to get their hands on Replicators. There is absolutely no point in extracting the vast majority of resources with an unwilling labor force if replication technology existed during the Occupation.
The Bajorans literally welcomed the Cardassians with open arms, and it wasn't until the Bajoran elite were stripped of their power by the introduction of a true post-scarcity society (thanks to Replicators) that the resistance began. Cardassian civilians and aid workers were targetted by Bajoran terrorists being used and manipulated by the old elite, and hopped up on the idea of being freedom fighters in a society that was finally about to know true freedom. All they did was sabotage Bajors progression into a true member of interstellar society, all because a few old wrinkle-nosed jackasses wanted to keep feeling proud of themselves. And of course, when Cardassia finally tired of spending innocent lives to uplift these moronic hicks, they take their replicators and energy reserves with them, and suddenly Bajor is without the resources and food it has grown used to, because hey, guess what? The Bajorans have no infrastructure because the only thing of note they have ever developed on their own was the most inefficient starship in existence. So they cry to the federation for help, and the federation obliges, in the spirit of unwarranted aggression towards Cardassia.
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
What Replicators? Deep Space 9 was originally built as an ore refining facility in 2346 to 2351. Then there was the Labor Camps to extract the ore and other precious resources. It is possible that the Bajoran Elite were stripped of their power and that is why the Bajorans rebelled, but it wasn't due to a true post-scarcity society caused by Replicators. Replicators must have not been common until just before 2364 (TNG Season 1) and it is likely that it took a few years after Replicators were developed for Cardassians and the rest of the major interstellar powers to get their hands on Replicators. There is absolutely no point in extracting the vast majority of resources with an unwilling labor force if replication technology existed during the Occupation.
Replicators existed on Terak Nor and were the subject of Bajoran tampering and placing of an aphasia virus. Debate on replicators is if they create from energy or if they alter matter to a new form. The fact that the Federation was still mining and the Enterprise herself carried cargo indicates the later was true. So you can have both.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I just love justifications to enslavement, attempts to genocide and revisionism.
Some Dentals would have made fine Moff Tarkins if they were on Star Wars forums as opposed to Star Trek forums.
"Come on, Tarkin did Alderaanians a favor by destroying their world! Now they've stopped their continuous Great Houses bickering and their Kilik problems are solved!"
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
This part I find erroneous as the actions on the dyson sphere happen decades later than the befriending of the bajorans.
If you claim that including bajoran terrorists into Starfleet weakened the resolve against war crimes and used said 'crimes' against voth civilian targets as proof it would be one thing. Better I think to examine Starfleet and the Federation of the time period versus a long span.
Looking at the Federation then. They have issues with the borg and the fleet is weak. The people do not see the hardships out there and want peace. And the Federation finished a war against the cardassians relatively recently. Further, actions with the cardassians showed they were rearming the borders with the Federation. And bombing federation interests while attempting to frame bajoran resistance fighters that did not actually have the means to reach those targets. All to have the Starfleet lure them out so they could be destroyed.
From those seeds did the Federation put its lot in with the bajorans. Right or wrong. But the cardassians did not leave much room to trust them. And that does not even get into the cardassian's interactions with the Klingon empire. Who were allies at the time the peace settlements were handed down. So it was an enemy of my enemy situation when they first got together.
Apparently, first contact with the Federation was prior to the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Which would seem to coincide with the period where the Federation was at war with the Cardassians....
Well, given that the kiliks were an entire species of insectoid rapists who forced a bunch of furry Jedi hippies to molest each other for their amusement, yeah, I think that was a net gain. But Star Wars and the factors behind it's various events are wildly different from Star Trek, and have no bearing on the discussion at hand. No matter how much I believe a Cardassian/Chiss team up would solve every problem in both settings.
Comments
However, in Star Trek Online, we actually do have a chance to see how Bajorans act firsthand - while it's lost a lot of popularity ever since Delta Rising, the Undine Infiltration STF still gives an objective picture of how Bajorans behave. And it's not pretty.
The city is full of Bajoran 'civilians' who are heavily armed and armored. 'Civilians' who attack all other humanoids indiscriminately. They will wildly accuse Starfleet, Romulan and Klingon officers of all sorts of atrocities, and shoot them in the back unprovoked.
Bajorans will even attack firefighters. Firefighters who are in the middle of saving Bajoran homes.
When undine invaders are actively trying to kill their religious leaders and steal their most precious artifacts, one might expect the Bajorans to attempt to repel those invaders. That's a foolish assumption. Instead, Bajorans hate other humanoids so much that they actively aid the undine, spouting their xenophobic rhetoric all the while.
From the firsthand experience every captain can verify, it's clear that Bajorans are an irrationally aggressive species. They are physiologically incapable of giving an accurate summation of events - even events currently happening before their very eyes.
Their toxic Weltanschauung distorts everything they see, and I'm sure the distortion only gets worse over time. Doubtless, a few decades after the events of Undine Infiltraion, Bajorans will be talking about how gorn officers went around eating their children, vulcans pon farred everything in sight, and humans burned down their city and stole their orb. Killing thousands of innocent and completely unarmed civilians throughout, of course.
I will stress that - despite their firsthand accounts not being accurate sources of information - Bajorans are not 'dishonest' as a race - they simply have a legitimate difficulty understanding situations when under any amount of stress. Their extremely rigid caste system was probably created as a way to help contain these psychological quirks (I think 'deficiencies' is perhaps too judgmental a word), by giving each Bajoran an easy-to-understand place in the world, and ensuring that the only Bajorans who were trusted to practice violence are members of the Warrior Caste, psychologically trained for the role since birth.
> The Bajorans are nothing but filthy backwards savages who cried to the federation for help, claiming their subjugation was unjust despite their overt expansionism with those stupid primitive space sail boats. Cardassia brought them nothing but peace, enlightenment, and contentment but they spat in the face of this kindness with their cowardly bombings and idiot dogma. Then, when they finally get what they want and the federation offers them aid, they promptly start a doctrinal conflict and **** up what little of an economy their planet had even more then the Cardassian pull-out, ensuring that they were completely worthless to everyone, and if it weren't for the wormhole (the inhabitants of which the Bajorans, of course, decided were divinity, despite both the scientific answers for the lifeforms in question, as well as their complete disinterest in interacting with any Bajoran natives) the Bajorans likely would have been left to their own devices and allowed to nuke and/or starve themselves, ridding the galaxy of yet another menace. Alas, the federation is opportunistic and desired the lands of the Gamma Quadrant, thereby preventing such righteous justice from being enacted.
>
> Dukat was right.
>
> Free Bajor.
Dear god your signature hurts my eyes.
It is but the light of Dukat, my child.
It is a good pain.
My character Tsin'xing
The bajorans are a bunch of caca doodoo heads *Mic Drop*
Guess the spoon-heads felt a bit embarrassed by it all....getting their behinds kicked by such a "primitive" culture!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The DS9 writers obviously got it all wrong. They wrote the fictitious Bajorans and Cardassians in a fictitious TV show completely at odds with the real life Bajorans and Cardassians.
Ernst Janning: Judge Haywood... the reason I asked you to come: Those people, those millions of people... I never knew it would come to that. You must believe it, You must believe it!
Judge Dan Haywood: Herr Janning, it "came to that" the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent.
Other than posting about opening bajillions of Lockboxes and getting no ship, or the use of 'Memorial Spheres', starting Threads about Bajorans or Cardassians will NEVER end well.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
except they asked the Cardassians to come over. Not saying they aren't allowed to change their minds once they see the truth but the Cardassians weren't exactly invaders. And they didn't do anything unless the almighty profits said so and their are countless story arcs (including the major arc in the final few seasons) where the Bajorian powers that be manipulated "visions" and whatnot to justify their actions.
The "criminal" in question was simply and efficient and effective administrator. Was he cruel to the prisoners? Perhaps, but do you not look away when your country mistreats its prisoners of war, simply because it is easier to ignore.
The Cardassian Union simply has more tolerance for a hardline approach to terrorism. Never forget that Duet is the story of Galitep told from the point of view of a file clerk with a caring heart, and third person accounts from an admitted Bajoran terrorist.
The file clerk was a kind man, outside of a position to know just what kind of prisoners Galitep held. And an admitted Bajoran terrorist with a history of rationalizing and justifying her terrorism recounting third party accounts is hardly a reliable source of accurate information.
You may want to claim that war crimes were committed at Galitep, but the Cardassian Union never signed an agreement prior to the occupation limiting their treatment of prisoners.
It's a matter of perspective, the Bajorans want to be seen as the victims, so they're all too happy to twist the story of Galitep, and of course, from a human perspective, the Federation would classify Galitep as a war crime, but Cardassia saw Galitep as an effective prison labor camp. No more, no less.
I'm not saying the Bajorans are all right in their actions during this event, as setting fire (though we never know if they're the ones causing them or the Undine to make things worse) and shooting an officer with the intention to kill are plain wrong.
BUT, both sides do objectionable actions and none is completely right or completely wrong. Plus, it doesn't help this happens less than a year after Starfleet and the Empire hastily relocated themselves after the take over of DS9 by the 2800.
[citation needed], and it'd better be a good one...
My character Tsin'xing
Though it really shouldn't be a surprise that the feds would enjoy the company of terrorists, given the war crimes they gleefully committed against Voth civilian targets in the Dyson Sphere.
And without trying to get too much real world politics into it, I think this is what is dividing us.
In my understanding, a "prison labor camp" is a wrong start. Because you tend to want labor. Because nobody asks whether those interred are really terrorists or just bystanders happening to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No control by anything remotely independent - the Cardassians didn't have independent judiciary.
And I sure hope that you don't look away when your country mistreats prisoners of war, but instead voice your disapproval, because otherwise you'd lose everything that would have been you being "better" than your opponents. "My country, right or wrong" is - in my opinion - a very wrong way to judge things.
--Butts, 2012
This part I find erroneous as the actions on the dyson sphere happen decades later than the befriending of the bajorans.
If you claim that including bajoran terrorists into Starfleet weakened the resolve against war crimes and used said 'crimes' against voth civilian targets as proof it would be one thing. Better I think to examine Starfleet and the Federation of the time period versus a long span.
Looking at the Federation then. They have issues with the borg and the fleet is weak. The people do not see the hardships out there and want peace. And the Federation finished a war against the cardassians relatively recently. Further, actions with the cardassians showed they were rearming the borders with the Federation. And bombing federation interests while attempting to frame bajoran resistance fighters that did not actually have the means to reach those targets. All to have the Starfleet lure them out so they could be destroyed.
From those seeds did the Federation put its lot in with the bajorans. Right or wrong. But the cardassians did not leave much room to trust them. And that does not even get into the cardassian's interactions with the Klingon empire. Who were allies at the time the peace settlements were handed down. So it was an enemy of my enemy situation when they first got together.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
-- Butts, Diplomatic Leader of Starfleet Dental, Prior to execution in Bajor, 12/22/12
What Replicators? Deep Space 9 was originally built as an ore refining facility in 2346 to 2351. Then there was the Labor Camps to extract the ore and other precious resources. It is possible that the Bajoran Elite were stripped of their power and that is why the Bajorans rebelled, but it wasn't due to a true post-scarcity society caused by Replicators. Replicators must have not been common until just before 2364 (TNG Season 1) and it is likely that it took a few years after Replicators were developed for Cardassians and the rest of the major interstellar powers to get their hands on Replicators. There is absolutely no point in extracting the vast majority of resources with an unwilling labor force if replication technology existed during the Occupation.
Replicators existed on Terak Nor and were the subject of Bajoran tampering and placing of an aphasia virus. Debate on replicators is if they create from energy or if they alter matter to a new form. The fact that the Federation was still mining and the Enterprise herself carried cargo indicates the later was true. So you can have both.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Have you eaten bajoran bacon? its made from turkey those heathens make bacon from turkey , no wonder the cardassians wanted to wipe them out O.o
Im pretty sure it was soy dipped in turkey grease, not even legit turkey bacon
Some Dentals would have made fine Moff Tarkins if they were on Star Wars forums as opposed to Star Trek forums.
"Come on, Tarkin did Alderaanians a favor by destroying their world! Now they've stopped their continuous Great Houses bickering and their Kilik problems are solved!"
My character Tsin'xing