For so many people. The whole point of "Duet" is just lost. It just sails right over their heads. Unnoticed, unremarked.
It's the episode that lifts the veil on the subtext of the whole series, it is the point where it all comes sharply into focus. The federation will believe anything that justifies its anti cardassian prejudices, and strengthen its hold on the bajoran wormhole. Any lie, in the face any protestation by cardassians, will be taken as actionable truth.
An insane filing clerk? Good enough.
And how do the bajorans behave? Even when they learn this man is not the Gul Darheel they revile, but in fact a twisted sympathizer for their terrorism... they murder him. Because hey, the only good cardassian is a dead cardassian. Or "spoon head" to use the racist slur of the federation.
Actually, it's one racist bajoran drunkard who killed him and he got arrested for that. Be precise, please.
Hmm no your analogy doesn't work, and the only reason the second option is "messed up" is because you are injecting your own views of morality and right/wrong. The Cardassians are a hard race not subject to your moral prejudices, and to them, duty trumps all else, morality included.
There was a study where Cardassians on a ship were faced with diseased comrades. What were they to do? They obviously felt sympathy for their ailing colleagues, but ended up killing them to put them out of their misery and to continue with the mission they were charged with completing.
When your prime motivation is duty and discipline, you feel that to do your duty is to do the right thing. You don't agree. That's your problem.
Just because you think you're right doesn't mean you're right. It works in both ways.
Though, according to you, Bajorans and Kobali culture and actions can't be judged as right or wrong with our morality either, since they're different species with different views, beliefs, morality and standards. Thus, Bajorans have all right to despise a good chunk Cardassians and the Kobali are right in reviving deceased people as Kobali.
Yeah the delusional individuals in this thread defending the Cardasian behaviour are really showing their true colours. I guess they have fitted in well in certain parts of Europe around the 30's-40's, they'd have made a certain angry German guy very happy with their rhetoric.
Hmm no your analogy doesn't work, and the only reason the second option is "messed up" is because you are injecting your own views of morality and right/wrong. The Cardassians are a hard race not subject to your moral prejudices, and to them, duty trumps all else, morality included.
There was a study where Cardassians on a ship were faced with diseased comrades. What were they to do? They obviously felt sympathy for their ailing colleagues, but ended up killing them to put them out of their misery and to continue with the mission they were charged with completing.
When your prime motivation is duty and discipline, you feel that to do your duty is to do the right thing. You don't agree. That's your problem.
While I may have time to come back to some earlier stuff, but this is just silly. When we are talking about people liking or disliking a fictional concept of a society, we are of course using our measurements. Saying "that's who they are, morality isn't as important to them as patriotism and loyalty" works to explain the species, but to judge it, we need to use our standards. You seem to basically agree, I completely disagree - also with your earlier posts about "subordinate people" and mighty whitey coming to save the savages. That is an argument we could discuss here, though I doubt it would be of any use, so I think I should refrain. But then you cannot argue against Bajorans, because in their world view they are also doing the right thing. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Assimilating races and technology is what makes the Borg strong. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Killing people of different belief systems makes our race/country/planet a better place. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Somebody likes punching redheads just for fun. "You don't agree. That's your problem."
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
mostly cause the bulk of bajoran characters in the series and the game are really obnoxious **** holes
Pretty much this and speaking personally, I never liked Kira knowing that her spot had originally been intended for Ro Laren. As a plus, I've met Michelle Forbes and she is quite cool in person.
Yeah the delusional individuals in this thread defending the Cardasian behaviour are really showing their true colours.
I guess they have fitted in well in certain parts of Europe around the 30's-40's, they'd have made a certain angry German guy very happy with their rhetoric.
Nah, it's Nietzschean, rather. Sometimes I even think the Nietzschean mindset is required to become part of Dental. Nonetheless, I would have preferred to see the full extend of the insanity unfold with every post; but, alas, it got cut short by ppl having had enough.
Actually, Nabreeki and his followers aren't entirely wrong per se; some of their ideas are sound. But when r*ping women, slaughtering children, and brutal labor camps become part of the rationale, then you know someone went over the deep end.
It was their duty to improve Bajor and save the Bajorans from themselves.
If I follow this reasoning, that'd mean the Dominion was right in their attempt to exterminate the Cardassians for failing to do their duties, then?
Actually, not entirely difficult to interpret the post you quoted another way.
The Dominion hold loyalty above all else. To remain loyal is the right thing. It was the Dominion's duty to improve Cardassia and save the Cardassians from themselves.
Loyalty is the pinnacle of Dominion morality, and thus they acted morally in confronting a backwards faction of the people they tried to help.
Thinking about it, it's actually all irrelevant because of someone else's duty that trumps everyone's, including the Cardassians'.
The Sphere Builders':
“Yes, chief. Romal claims he acted on behalf of this universe, saving lives and so forth. But did he? As far as our data indicate, there is either an infinite number of universes, or so great a number as to be effectively infinite. In the face of numbers so large, the destruction of one, or two, or five, or a hundred, is effectively null. There is another universe just like that one. In fact, if the multiverse is indeed infinite, there are infinite universes like that one.”
“Further, were those people real? They existed outside of our reality. Therefore, they are, to us, by definition, unreal. And we didn’t deliberately destroy their universe. It was simply an effect of our experiments. It could have just as easily improved their universe as destroyed it.”
“Finally, do we not have a right to return home? We were all but exterminated by the Alliance and its allies. We fled their actions, only to find ourselves trapped in this pocket of space. Do we not have the right to try to set things right for our people? And if a few universes are altered or, yes, even destroyed along the way, this is perhaps the price we must pay. There can be no higher priority. This is the very cornerstone of our culture.”
Sure they're omnicidal maniacs who are killing countless trillions of beings, but according to Nabreeki's reasoning, they are completely in their right to do that as it's their duty... no, the "very cornerstone of (their) culture". And who are we to argue with them? To tell them they're wrong?
its possible to act rightly, with right intentions, and still have things turn out badly. The federation siding with the wicked bajorans was not something cardassian could control, and so while their attempt to uplift Bajorans lead to great suffering in the dominion war, it wasn't wrong for them to have tried, and wasn't their fault.
The moral culpability rests on the shoulders of the federation, who caused bad outcomes by choosing to act wrongly, by ignoring their duty.
Now now, just because someone sides against someone who thinks they're right doesn't necessarily means they're wrong.
Especially since Nabreeki demonstrated for himself just because humans have a specific notion of right and wrong doesn't mean a different alien notion of them is wrong.
Tfw a bunch of people playing a Star Trek game support religious fundamentalist terrorists instead of the atheist utopia. The Cardassians uplifted the Bajorans from their extremely primitive society that even let members of the priestly caste murder others just for touching them, and were willing to regress to that system in days without the guiding hand of the Federation or Cardassians (DS9, Episode 4x17). Not to mention the only resource Bajor has is the wormhole, whose exploitation is only possible thanks to the Cardassians building Terok Nor.
I guess if you tell people enough that the bad guys are the good guys they really start thinking they're the good guys. On display in this thread: How Propaganda Works On a Weak Mind.
For so many people. The whole point of "Duet" is just lost. It just sails right over their heads. Unnoticed, unremarked.
It's the episode that lifts the veil on the subtext of the whole series, it is the point where it all comes sharply into focus. The federation will believe anything that justifies its anti cardassian prejudices, and strengthen its hold on the bajoran wormhole. Any lie, in the face any protestation by cardassians, will be taken as actionable truth.
An insane filing clerk? Good enough.
And how do the bajorans behave? Even when they learn this man is not the Gul Darheel they revile, but in fact a twisted sympathizer for their terrorism... they murder him. Because hey, the only good cardassian is a dead cardassian. Or "spoon head" to use the racist slur of the federation.
Actually, it's one racist bajoran drunkard who killed him and he got arrested for that. Be precise, please.
Who was arrested by OTHER Bajorans! So clearly he was not representative of Bajorans in general.
I think the Cardassians are obviously the superior civilization, but of course they're not infallible. Every great nation or empire falls eventually, sometimes through their own actions, no matter how benevolent or well-intentioned.
But what metric is used to define which is the superior civilization? Is it technological progress, sustainability, flexibility, overall happiness, how long it existed, or some other metric that is used to define the superior civilization? Is a civilization that is technologically superior, but destroys countless planets for its resources superior to a civilization that lives in harmony with its world, everyone is content with their life, and has existed for thousands of years, but isn't as technologically advanced?
Who was arrested by OTHER Bajorans! So clearly he was not representative of Bajorans in general.
Odo arrested him. Odo is not a Bajoran. Odo is a changeling.
It is quite telling that the people in this thread who are pro-bajoran are also the ones who have the most difficulty identifying who is and is not a bajoran, ascribing non-bajoran positive actions to bajorans, and bajoran negative actions to non-bajorans. Unfair!
Who was arrested by OTHER Bajorans! So clearly he was not representative of Bajorans in general.
Odo arrested him. Odo is not a Bajoran. Odo is a changeling.
It is quite telling that the people in this thread who are pro-bajoran are also the ones who have the most difficulty identifying who is and is not a bajoran, ascribing non-bajoran positive actions to bajorans, and bajoran negative actions to non-bajorans. Unfair!
Who was arrested by OTHER Bajorans! So clearly he was not representative of Bajorans in general.
Odo arrested him. Odo is not a Bajoran. Odo is a changeling.
It is quite telling that the people in this thread who are pro-bajoran are also the ones who have the most difficulty identifying who is and is not a bajoran, ascribing non-bajoran positive actions to bajorans, and bajoran negative actions to non-bajorans. Unfair!
Ummm...yeeah, Odo works for the Bajoran Militia on DS9, he is carrying out their work. So yes they really were the ones who made the arrest.
I don't know how we did it, but we seemed to have created a Temporal Loop. I recall this same frakking Thread conversation less than a year ago. Same character actors, same arguments, a few new stunt men. It's like how many times are they going to remake Spiderman. None end well.
You are particularly brilliant in your use of logic. But to be logical is not to be right, and nothing on God's earth could ever make it right.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I just. What. What did I just read. Really folks?
/Closed
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
Comments
Though, according to you, Bajorans and Kobali culture and actions can't be judged as right or wrong with our morality either, since they're different species with different views, beliefs, morality and standards. Thus, Bajorans have all right to despise a good chunk Cardassians and the Kobali are right in reviving deceased people as Kobali.
I guess they have fitted in well in certain parts of Europe around the 30's-40's, they'd have made a certain angry German guy very happy with their rhetoric.
While I may have time to come back to some earlier stuff, but this is just silly. When we are talking about people liking or disliking a fictional concept of a society, we are of course using our measurements. Saying "that's who they are, morality isn't as important to them as patriotism and loyalty" works to explain the species, but to judge it, we need to use our standards. You seem to basically agree, I completely disagree - also with your earlier posts about "subordinate people" and mighty whitey coming to save the savages. That is an argument we could discuss here, though I doubt it would be of any use, so I think I should refrain. But then you cannot argue against Bajorans, because in their world view they are also doing the right thing. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Assimilating races and technology is what makes the Borg strong. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Killing people of different belief systems makes our race/country/planet a better place. "You don't agree. That's your problem." Somebody likes punching redheads just for fun. "You don't agree. That's your problem."
Pretty much this and speaking personally, I never liked Kira knowing that her spot had originally been intended for Ro Laren. As a plus, I've met Michelle Forbes and she is quite cool in person.
Nah, it's Nietzschean, rather. Sometimes I even think the Nietzschean mindset is required to become part of Dental.
Actually, Nabreeki and his followers aren't entirely wrong per se; some of their ideas are sound. But when r*ping women, slaughtering children, and brutal labor camps become part of the rationale, then you know someone went over the deep end.
Thinking about it, it's actually all irrelevant because of someone else's duty that trumps everyone's, including the Cardassians'.
The Sphere Builders':
Sure they're omnicidal maniacs who are killing countless trillions of beings, but according to Nabreeki's reasoning, they are completely in their right to do that as it's their duty... no, the "very cornerstone of (their) culture". And who are we to argue with them? To tell them they're wrong?
Especially since Nabreeki demonstrated for himself just because humans have a specific notion of right and wrong doesn't mean a different alien notion of them is wrong.
My character Tsin'xing
But what metric is used to define which is the superior civilization? Is it technological progress, sustainability, flexibility, overall happiness, how long it existed, or some other metric that is used to define the superior civilization? Is a civilization that is technologically superior, but destroys countless planets for its resources superior to a civilization that lives in harmony with its world, everyone is content with their life, and has existed for thousands of years, but isn't as technologically advanced?
Odo arrested him. Odo is not a Bajoran. Odo is a changeling.
It is quite telling that the people in this thread who are pro-bajoran are also the ones who have the most difficulty identifying who is and is not a bajoran, ascribing non-bajoran positive actions to bajorans, and bajoran negative actions to non-bajorans. Unfair!
Odo was a great man!
Ummm...yeeah, Odo works for the Bajoran Militia on DS9, he is carrying out their work. So yes they really were the ones who made the arrest.
Please do enlighten me what they meant oh Great One with your wisdom...
You are particularly brilliant in your use of logic. But to be logical is not to be right, and nothing on God's earth could ever make it right.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
/Closed
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
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