Borg and Time Travel Plot Hole

maxfive00 · December 2016

I was watching First Contact and got to thanking about.Why the Borg would send one Cube to Earth just to send back in time.Why not just send a Cube back in time from Borg space.The reason the Borg sent the Cube to Earth in the first place was because the Borg were months into a with Species 8472 and losing badly.
1st reason the Borg didn't send a ship back in time from Borg space.Was even the Borg fear time travel.
2nd reason the Borg have tried like Annorax but found time was fighting them.
3rd reason that people like Daniels are fighting the Borg through time.

jorantomalak · December 2016

The whole thing about STFC is simple , the borg queen was trying to stop first contact from happening and assimilate humanity thus preventing the federation from ever being formed.

If that wouldve happened the alpha and beta quads wouldve been quickly assimilated , and their war with the undine wouldve been a victory, why only one cube is because it was carrying the time travel cube within, it was a kamakaze mission the cube was a sacrifical lamb so the sphere could make a quick time travel jump and be where and when it needed to be, it was a very clever but doomed gambit by the borg queen.

she didnt think the enterprise would follow her back using her own temporal wake, thus by proxy the enterprise E was a means time fought back .

letsfadeaway · December 2016

4th reason the stakes were higher and it made for a better movie

Unknown · December 2016

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risian4 · December 2016

The whole thing was illogical. The Borg want to perfect themselves through assimilation. What's better to assimilate than one of the few enemies (besides the Undine, Voth (though only in-game) and Arturis' species who are the only ones that actually did it on their own) that manages to defy you?

Of course it could be argued that it's often dumb luck or plot that caused the Federation to resist the Borg, or because they managed to establish an alliance with other species like in the books, but still. The Federation, and specifically some of its technology and human resourcefulness plus the combined power of several species working together (as opposed to uniformity of the Collective) are probably the most interesting features for the Borg. There is, on the other hand, no reason why they'd be interested in a bunch of primitive humans from the 2160's who almost destroyed themselves a couple of years before and who hadn't had any official contact with other species (one of the big prizes for whoever manages to absorb the Federation) whatsoever. Assimilating humans before they developed anything of interest (keep in mind, the Borg can't really develop anything themselves according to some episodes) makes absolutely zero sense.

Even if just establishing a foothold was the primary objective, there were easier and better ways to do that.
So, simply put, the whole plot at its core doesn't make much sense.

Just like many other small things don't make sense. Like how the entire crew couldn't retake the Enterprise because they were attacked from all directions and slowly assimilated while trying to hold on to the last few areas, yet Picard simply enters engineering without any opposition and saves the day when the directors decided it was time to end the movie.
I wouldn't look too much into it, it's just bad writing like many parts of the movie were badly and inconsistenly written. Good movie on its own and there's some nice action in it, but storywise it could have been done better.

artan42 · December 2016

The Borg have Transwarp. There's no reason why the Queen wouldn't just go back in time over in, say, the corner of the Beta Quadrant then transwarp over to Earth in the past.

I loved FC but the plot was nonsense and the Queen was pathetic.

angrytarg · December 2016

Time travel stories rarely make sense. In FCs case, nothing makes sense. Garbage movie that ruined the Borg forever - it has some nice action, but that's it.

warpangel · December 2016

maxfive00 wrote: »

I was watching First Contact and got to thanking about.Why the Borg would send one Cube to Earth just to send back in time.Why not just send a Cube back in time from Borg space.

Because then the Borg would've won, the Federation would never have existed and thus the Borg would never have had any reason to send the cube in the first place.

Grandfather paradox.

Also, because then there would've been no movie.

byozuma · December 2016

Honestly, First Contact exists in it's own universe... actually, thinking about it, First Contact is the first Kelvin Timeline movie. No, work with me here. The Kelvin Timeline established that Spock didn't so much go back as much as he did a separate universe given we're playing in a progressing Prime, not unlike the Mirror Universe. But Beyond set a clear connection between Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline with that one 'home video' and the mention of the Xindi war. Going back to Enterprise, the newly formed Federation isn't celebrating a happy union with the Vulcans but rather a resentment at how much they are lagging behind, as if a level of foreknowledge exists among the human members. Foreknowledge that could well be stemming from First Contact given how much the Enterprise crew TRIBBLE all over the Temporal Prime Directive.

Not that the time travel in any point of the series, new or old, made any sense. By all rights, with how much technology and information has been left behind in the process Roddenberry's image of the future should have been a reality in the series by the 1960s. And don't get me started on how they even managed it in the first place (Voyage Home that bird-of-prey must have been the gods damn Tardis with all they were doing with it). And that's not even counting this game! Why didn't we just take that bloody McGuffin back to the galactic overseers while we were in the past, we knew exactly where they ran away to thanks to that annoying NPC who'd screwed it all up in the first place! And the time police are so hypocritical it's beyond irony.

rancidmojo · December 2016

angrytarg wrote: »

Time travel stories rarely make sense. In FCs case, nothing makes sense. Garbage movie that ruined the Borg forever - it has some nice action, but that's it.

Well, I agree with that. I hope they never do another Time travel plot in trek, ever.

baddmoonrizin · December 2016

If the Borg had traveled back in time in Borg space before going to Earth, then they would've needed to travel from Borg space in the past to Earth in the past. The Borg transwarp network would not have been extensive enough at that point in time to allow them to quickly make the journey to Earth. Hence making the journey to Earth first, then traveling back in time.

artan42 · December 2016

byozuma#0956 wrote: »

Honestly, First Contact exists in it's own universe... actually, thinking about it, First Contact is the first Kelvin Timeline movie. No, work with me here. The Kelvin Timeline established that Spock didn't so much go back as much as he did a separate universe given we're playing in a progressing Prime, not unlike the Mirror Universe. But Beyond set a clear connection between Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline with that one 'home video' and the mention of the Xindi war. Going back to Enterprise, the newly formed Federation isn't celebrating a happy union with the Vulcans but rather a resentment at how much they are lagging behind, as if a level of foreknowledge exists among the human members. Foreknowledge that could well be stemming from First Contact given how much the Enterprise crew **** all over the Temporal Prime Directive.

Except they repaired the timeline. The Kelvin Timeline still exists because nobody went back in time to stop Nero changing the past and destroying the Kelvin. The First Contact Timeline ceased to exist after the Vulcan ship landed and history progressed as normal.
The Kelvin Timeline is an alternate timeline, not an alternate universe like the Mirror Universe. Spock and Nero merely went back to a point in their own pasts (or Spock's anyway). Spock Prime points out multiple times that this is his past, not a alternate version of his past (beyond the attack on the Kelvin obviously).

If there's any changes in the KT and the DTI not fixing the problem it's more likely to do with the Temporal Cold War and that the DTI or Daniels are being actively prevented from altering the timeline.

nikeix · December 2016

Conversely, Nero pretty plainly feels he's in an alternate universe. He has no interest in saving this 'other' Romulus because it's not the home he lost and never will be. Given their resources, I don't think either character actually KNOWS what was on the other side of the prime timeline red matter singularity... And from STO's standpoint the prime timeline went on unaffected, so at least in this game the Kelvin Timeline is an divergent reality. Further, with what we see of it through Yesterday's War and the Lobi consortium, it's a simultaneously accessible alternate reality, functionally indistinguishable from the mirror universe.

artan42 · December 2016

nikeix wrote: »

Conversely, Nero pretty plainly feels he's in an alternate universe. He has no interest in saving this 'other' Romulus because it's not the home he lost and never will be. Given their resources, I don't think either character actually KNOWS what was on the other side of the prime timeline red matter singularity... And from STO's standpoint the prime timeline went on unaffected, so at least in this game the Kelvin Timeline is an divergent reality. Further, with what we see of it through Yesterday's War and the Lobi consortium, it's a simultaneously accessible alternate reality, functionally indistinguishable from the mirror universe.

Nero's motives cannot be clearly unravelled as he's clearly a little off his rocker. However he could mean, more simply, that his Romulus is in the present, i.e. the Romulus with his family on and any Romulus without them is not his.
Nero is also a simple miner with zero knowledge of time travel or alternate dimensions, Spock has been exposed to both and possess a clear and practical working knowledge of exactly how to time travel and what the effects are.

From a canon perspective there is only one character we can trust and that's Spock Prime. From a production standpoint the official line is that it's a timeline not a universe and that the single point of divergence was the attack on the Kelvin and that Spock and Nero came from the Prime Timeline originally. Obviously that all amounts to a hill of beans if not demonstrated in canon, but it was.

STO takes a different approach though and that's their choice but it's not really relevant in terms of the effects of FC on the KT.

nikeix · December 2016

Whereas I see exactly ZERO reliable observers. This is the same Spock whose "experience with time travel" incudes a jaunt back to the 60's where the catastrophic tampering they cause is all inexplicable reset in every way by jumping back one day earlier...

Time travel in Star Trek is largely nonsensical because with ONE EXCEPTION it's always been "the march to status quo".

artan42 · December 2016

nikeix wrote: »

Whereas I see exactly ZERO reliable observers. This is the same Spock whose "experience with time travel" incudes a jaunt back to the 60's where the catastrophic tampering they cause is all inexplicable reset in every way by jumping back one day earlier...

Time travel in Star Trek is largely nonsensical because with ONE EXCEPTION it's always been "the march to status quo".

Who programmed the precise jump in TVH?

byozuma · December 2016

Well, and this is just me spitballing, the first clue that there's a divergence in timelines is in the Kelvin itself. On the outside it looks like a uniquely designed TOS Movie starship, from the metallic off-white/grey paintjob to the decals and ornamentation. Get inside, though, and it immediately departs from recognized TOS stylings. It's gruff, industrial, no nonsense. And even with how much damage it sustains from Nero's attack it's still kicking enough to get in a debilitating blow so we can even have a movie. It's a clearly substantially more advanced ship than it should be at that point in time. Something happened in that timeline prior to Nero's arrival to jumpstart Federation technology enough for there to have even been a Kelvin to ram the Narada in the first place. And if Enterprise is any clue it wasn't the vulcans. Which leaves First Contact.

Append: And yes, I'm full aware of all the holes in my argument... mayhaps too much spit in the spitballs.

artan42 · December 2016

byozuma#0956 wrote: »

Well, and this is just me spitballing, the first clue that there's a divergence in timelines is in the Kelvin itself. On the outside it looks like a uniquely designed TOS Movie starship, from the metallic off-white/grey paintjob to the decals and ornamentation. Get inside, though, and it immediately departs from recognized TOS stylings. It's gruff, industrial, no nonsense. And even with how much damage it sustains from Nero's attack it's still kicking enough to get in a debilitating blow so we can even have a movie. It's a clearly substantially more advanced ship than it should be at that point in time. Something happened in that timeline prior to Nero's arrival to jumpstart Federation technology enough for there to have even been a Kelvin to ram the Narada in the first place. And if Enterprise is any clue it wasn't the vulcans. Which leaves First Contact.

Append: And yes, I'm full aware of all the holes in my argument... mayhaps too much spit in the spitballs.

That's all because it's not a TOS era ship. It predates the TOS. It's an evolution of the aesthetics of ENT, all industrial and no frills metal. The only difference is age. Things in ENT are shiny as the ships are only up to five or so years old. Once they get older, things start to rust or get patched up. Just look at the Franklin, it started off like the NX, you can see the same aesthetics inside, but it's all rusted metal and loose wires and hazard stripes etc. Same with the Kelvin. It's a lived in ship. True, it dosn't mesh with the much later workhorses that last years like the Galaxy or Excelsior where everything remains pastel shades with primary coloured accessories, but that's a real world consideration, not in universe.

The reason it survives what Nero throws at it is that it dosn't. Really. Nero's firing torpedos that shred the hull like the shields aren't even there. Humphreys says exactly that. Their warp power goes down in seconds and their weapons are completely ineffectual. There's not even a slightly advanced edge to it compared to the TOS Conni. The only reason it looks that way on the surface is due to the dynamic and realistic battle and not the old 'hand two plastic models on bits of string facing each other and draw some red lines onto the negatives' approach from the 60s. Just compare the battle scenes from the start of DS9 to the end, that's not Mirandas surviving more, that's just Mirandas leaving behind wreckage and not being vapourised in a pink haze as they didn't need to wreck real models to do so.

The Nerada also isn't armed particularly well. It has those shrapnell torpedos and that's it. They aren't beam weapons and they don't cause secondary explosions, their damage is limited to where they enter the hull and fragment.

People keep suggesting the KT ships (and even the pre KT) are more advanced but they're not. Sure, the KonsTitution may be faster than the TOS one but see what they had to do to the warp core to do it. They tried to get 24th century results out of 23rd century tech. Their ships do not have more weapons, they don't have better weapons, they aren't more manoeuvrable, their shields seem to do sweet sod all. People just seem to mistake shiny for advanced.

saurializard · December 2016

IMO, the Borg are probably one of the worst idea in any scifi media. I'm not saying I hate them, I just think they were designed and elaborated with a lack of foresight.

You can argue the assimilation aspect and the Queen ruined the Borg, but I think the Borg were ruined the moment they appeared on screen.
We're talking about a species that can adapt to pretty much everything after losing a few units. And it's not a case of "they lose units, analyze the weapon effects on the units, elaborate a possible counter in specific locations, build it into other units, send these units for tests, and then if the tests are successful, enhance the rest of the units by having them go get the counter".
No, we're talking about: "lose a few units, instantly analyze and build a flawless counter out of thin air in a snap of fingers to every unit".

Frankly, the reason the Borg didn't already assimilate everything in the galaxy is the plot and the fact they're popular and thus need to be brought back to get positive ratings.
The Borg's whole existence and non-assimilation of everything at this point make no sense whatsoever because whenever they have a weakness they adapt to patch it and they keep getting more and more knowledge and have all the technology to replicate it, yet never use it in the show. Krenim tech? Never used, except maybe in First Contact. Romulan cloaking device that assimilated engineers would know how to use? Only appeared in STO: Butterfly.

In addition, their behavior makes it worse, because for them, everything is irrelevant, you can't talk them down, they never ignore anyone for assimilation or destruction except single units for a time, and keep adding more drones to their collective, when their quest is "merely" for perfection (or so they say, why would they need 9 billions of human for that goal).

They're just juggernauts with no real cause.

rattler2 · December 2016

byozuma#0956 wrote: »

Honestly, First Contact exists in it's own universe... actually, thinking about it, First Contact is the first Kelvin Timeline movie. No, work with me here. The Kelvin Timeline established that Spock didn't so much go back as much as he did a separate universe given we're playing in a progressing Prime, not unlike the Mirror Universe. But Beyond set a clear connection between Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline with that one 'home video' and the mention of the Xindi war. Going back to Enterprise, the newly formed Federation isn't celebrating a happy union with the Vulcans but rather a resentment at how much they are lagging behind, as if a level of foreknowledge exists among the human members. Foreknowledge that could well be stemming from First Contact given how much the Enterprise crew **** all over the Temporal Prime Directive.

One problem with your argument. The Series Finale of Enterprise, which, while the events we see were actually a holodeck recreation aboard Enterprise-D to help Riker with a MAJOR decision regarding the USS Pegasus, CLEARLY connects Enterprise to established Prime Universe canon.

Riker and Troi are seen wearing established TNG uniforms.
We see the Enterprise-D as we know her, and even hear Data.
Riker mentions USS Pegasus, which was in an episode of TNG regarding the illegal Phase Cloak aboard said ship, and the moral issue he had choosing between his former and current Captain.
I believe Troi mentioned that NX-01 was a museum ship in orbit of Earth in the 24th Century.

So the clear deviation in the timeline is in fact the attack on the Kelvin in 2233. In the Prime Timeline it is possible that the Kelvin was eventually refitted to TOS style or even decommissioned in favor of the Constitution class, as they seemed to fill similar roles based on what we know of the Kelvin.

Also, in the episode Regeneration, Archer mentioned that Cochrane once told a different story about First Contact. Usually the story went that it was pretty peaceful. But one time, he spoke of the true events, and how a ship from the future helped save them from a threat. One that Archer believed was what they were chasing due to the data he had on the Arctic expedition. Not only that, at the end of Regeneration, the assimilated ship managed to transmit a message before being destroyed by Enterprise, destination Delta Quadrant. At normal Subspace, it wouldn't arrive until the 24th Century. In TNG, we actually start hearing hints of trouble that would lead to Wolf 359 as early as season 1 or 2, which would line up with the transmission having been received and the Borg sending that first cube. So we have a massive predestination paradox of First Contact, Enterprise, and TNG.

First Contact: Borg attack Earth. Send Sphere back in time. Sphere destroyed by Enterprise-E in past.
Enterprise: Borg debris found in arctic. Team assimilated. NX-01 Enterprise destroys Assimilated ship. Message sent.
TNG: Borg receive signal, send Cube to attack Earth. Battle of Wolf 359. Enterprise-D destroys cube above Earth.
First Contact: Borg attack Earth.

baddmoonrizin · December 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

byozuma#0956 wrote: »

Honestly, First Contact exists in it's own universe... actually, thinking about it, First Contact is the first Kelvin Timeline movie. No, work with me here. The Kelvin Timeline established that Spock didn't so much go back as much as he did a separate universe given we're playing in a progressing Prime, not unlike the Mirror Universe. But Beyond set a clear connection between Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline with that one 'home video' and the mention of the Xindi war. Going back to Enterprise, the newly formed Federation isn't celebrating a happy union with the Vulcans but rather a resentment at how much they are lagging behind, as if a level of foreknowledge exists among the human members. Foreknowledge that could well be stemming from First Contact given how much the Enterprise crew **** all over the Temporal Prime Directive.

One problem with your argument. The Series Finale of Enterprise, which, while the events we see were actually a holodeck recreation aboard Enterprise-D to help Riker with a MAJOR decision regarding the USS Pegasus, CLEARLY connects Enterprise to established Prime Universe canon.
Riker and Troi are seen wearing established TNG uniforms.

We see the Enterprise-D as we know her, and even hear Data.

Riker mentions USS Pegasus, which was in an episode of TNG regarding the illegal Phase Cloak aboard said ship, and the moral issue he had choosing between his former and current Captain.

I believe Troi mentioned that NX-01 was a museum ship in orbit of Earth in the 24th Century.

So the clear deviation in the timeline is in fact the attack on the Kelvin in 2233. In the Prime Timeline it is possible that the Kelvin was eventually refitted to TOS style or even decommissioned in favor of the Constitution class, as they seemed to fill similar roles based on what we know of the Kelvin.

Also, in the episode Regeneration, Archer mentioned that Cochrane once told a different story about First Contact. Usually the story went that it was pretty peaceful. But one time, he spoke of the true events, and how a ship from the future helped save them from a threat. One that Archer believed was what they were chasing due to the data he had on the Arctic expedition. Not only that, at the end of Regeneration, the assimilated ship managed to transmit a message before being destroyed by Enterprise, destination Delta Quadrant. At normal Subspace, it wouldn't arrive until the 24th Century. In TNG, we actually start hearing hints of trouble that would lead to Wolf 359 as early as season 1 or 2, which would line up with the transmission having been received and the Borg sending that first cube. So we have a massive predestination paradox of First Contact, Enterprise, and TNG.
First Contact: Borg attack Earth. Send Sphere back in time. Sphere destroyed by Enterprise-E in past.

Enterprise: Borg debris found in arctic. Team assimilated. NX-01 Enterprise destroys Assimilated ship. Message sent.

TNG: Borg receive signal, send Cube to attack Earth. Battle of Wolf 359. Enterprise-D destroys cube above Earth.

First Contact: Borg attack Earth.

Don't forget, in the TNG era, insert between the Borg receiving the signal and Cubes attacking the Alpha Quadrant, we have "Q Who", where Q sends the Enterprise-D into the Delta Quadrant. The Enterprise-D then ends up running into the Borg. This is believed, at the time, to be Starfleet's first encounter with the Borg, and is meant, by Q, as an early warning for what is to come, as the Borg are already on their way due to the predestination paradox.

rattler2 · December 2016

Very true.

artan42 · December 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

So the clear deviation in the timeline is in fact the attack on the Kelvin in 2233. In the Prime Timeline it is possible that the Kelvin was eventually refitted to TOS style or even decommissioned in favor of the Constitution class, as they seemed to fill similar roles based on what we know of the Kelvin.

Well the former is unlikely as the TOS and KT Constitutions are the only ships we've ever seen being refitted into a completely different class. The latter is unnecessary as the KT films show that Kelvin era ships are being used right into the Cage era (well the equivalent of). We only see something like four or five capital ships in TOS, all Constitutions, and all are seen at main bases except the Constellation. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the Kelvin types are still out there.

rattler2 · December 2016

Just because we've only seen the Connie get a full structural refit doesn't mean other ships couldn't.

She looks pretty good with the TOS style honestly.

lordsteve1 · December 2016

Going back to FC day to destroy the humans makes sense if you want to just stop the Federation ever existing, but this is the Borg we're talking about.
All they care a bout is perfection and assimilating new species and technology and knowledge,so to destroy the Federation with all it's hundreds of different worlds with different technology seems illogical. Far better to let the Federation develop and wait until it has some really impressive tech and goodies to get hold of, then move in to assimilate it all in one go.
To the Borg the Federation are not an enemy, they are a resource to by mined for knowledge and technology; destroying them makes zero sense.

My personal feeling would have been to get the cube fight through to Earth the same as in the movie and the sphere escapes back through time as normal. But then instead of bombing the silo the Borg beam down drones to go into hiding for the next 300 years, the ultimate sleeper agents. Waiting until the Federation is at its juiciest and ready to be taken from within. That would result in the same film essentially but make more sense in what the Borg are all about. It still has the same sense of urgency but shows the Borg to be both ruthless and willing to play the long game to get their needs fulfilled.

emacsheadroom · December 2016

This issue has been brought up before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Lr8cdZwHQ&index=4&list=PL28833B1D862CD829

artan42 · December 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

Just because we've only seen the Connie get a full structural refit doesn't mean other ships couldn't.
She looks pretty good with the TOS style honestly.

No, it dosn't mean they couldn't, it means it's very unlikely. Two ships out of the dozen or so featured ships from 50 years.

And, sure, it may look good, but it still wouldn't work. The TOS and TMP Conni have the same structure, their components are more or less the same thickness, same angle, same height etc. Other than general size, the Kelvin shares nothing in common with the TOS ships, the proportions are massively off. A TOS Kelvin would just be a chopped up Constitution rearranged in the Kelvin configuration.

neoakiraii · December 2016

The Enterprise E is the Kyle Reese of Star Trek....It went back in Time and created it's own legacy.....Zefram Cochrane probably was like hey, instead of naming the NX 01 Dauntless...Let's name her Enterprise AND HISTORY WAS MADE!

warpangel · December 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

First Contact: Borg attack Earth. Send Sphere back in time. Sphere destroyed by Enterprise-E in past.

Enterprise: Borg debris found in arctic. Team assimilated. NX-01 Enterprise destroys Assimilated ship. Message sent.

TNG: Borg receive signal, send Cube to attack Earth. Battle of Wolf 359. Enterprise-D destroys cube above Earth.

First Contact: Borg attack Earth.

But the Borg were operating this side of the galaxy already in the 23rd century. At least enough to assimilate the El-Aurians in 2265.

rattler2 · December 2016

warpangel wrote: »

But the Borg were operating this side of the galaxy already in the 23rd century. At least enough to assimilate the El-Aurians in 2265.

But they weren't aware of the Federation until the 24th Century.

artan42 · December 2016

rattler2 wrote: »

warpangel wrote: »

But the Borg were operating this side of the galaxy already in the 23rd century. At least enough to assimilate the El-Aurians in 2265.

But they weren't aware of the Federation until the 24th Century.

Whilst in Federation space?

Borg and Time Travel Plot Hole

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