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Changes to the timeline - discussion of and discontent with latest episodes
risian4
Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
I'm even more convinced now that the self-proclaimed 'guardians' of the timeline (Daniels, Walker, the DTI) are little more than a bunch of hypocrites who think they have the right to decide what's right and what's wrong.
Taking just the Defiant or the space station in one of the latest episodes as an example: who is Daniels to decide that their fate is to die on board of those structures? Both the station and the ship were lost as a direct result of things done by the Na'kuhl. The loss of the Tholian fleet is just another example: just because it drives the Tholians back and encourages them to not expand outwards, thereby avoiding conflict with the Federation, Daniels and the like don't consider it necessary to correct this incursion.
But I guess we'll just have to believe him when he says 'trust that this is the right thing to do'. I feel that an option not to side with whoever you're forced to side with (in this case, some temporal agent who's doing much more than just watching history unfold as Vosk so rightly emphasised in his discussion with Archer) is needed, more than ever.
Daniels and the other temporal agents are not neutral: they are actively playing for god, pretending that it is up to them to decide on the fate of entire species while also pretending to be taking action in the best interest of all, while it is actually just the best interest of the Federation and the temporal agents themselves that is being defended here.
And I don't mean to defend the Na'kuhl, the Sphere Builders or any other 'Temporal Liberation Front' factions. But I do sometimes wonder what happened to the Federation of Picard, with its principles of non-interference (like in Insurrection) or the Federation where 'the needs of the many' wasn't abused in that 'the few', even when they were entire species, basically just had to suck it up.
Even a few more dialogue options that allow us to point out the NPC's hypocrisy would be much appreciated.
Oh and edit: by 'discontent' in the title I didn't necessarily mean that the episodes were not fun to play or anything. It's just that, imo, the story is too one-sided.
Taking just the Defiant or the space station in one of the latest episodes as an example: who is Daniels to decide that their fate is to die on board of those structures? Both the station and the ship were lost as a direct result of things done by the Na'kuhl. The loss of the Tholian fleet is just another example: just because it drives the Tholians back and encourages them to not expand outwards, thereby avoiding conflict with the Federation, Daniels and the like don't consider it necessary to correct this incursion.
But I guess we'll just have to believe him when he says 'trust that this is the right thing to do'. I feel that an option not to side with whoever you're forced to side with (in this case, some temporal agent who's doing much more than just watching history unfold as Vosk so rightly emphasised in his discussion with Archer) is needed, more than ever.
Daniels and the other temporal agents are not neutral: they are actively playing for god, pretending that it is up to them to decide on the fate of entire species while also pretending to be taking action in the best interest of all, while it is actually just the best interest of the Federation and the temporal agents themselves that is being defended here.
And I don't mean to defend the Na'kuhl, the Sphere Builders or any other 'Temporal Liberation Front' factions. But I do sometimes wonder what happened to the Federation of Picard, with its principles of non-interference (like in Insurrection) or the Federation where 'the needs of the many' wasn't abused in that 'the few', even when they were entire species, basically just had to suck it up.
Even a few more dialogue options that allow us to point out the NPC's hypocrisy would be much appreciated.
Oh and edit: by 'discontent' in the title I didn't necessarily mean that the episodes were not fun to play or anything. It's just that, imo, the story is too one-sided.
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Cooper wasn't what he seemed.
The destruction of the Tholian fleet, and possibly the assasination of the Tellarite ambassador, are just a few examples of changes that were not corrected.
Were they not important enough? Perhaps a bit too convenient for the Federation and the time agents? Whatever the reasons, the temporal agents and the Federation should at least stop pretending that they're the good guys. They are as much doing things for selfish reasons as those they are currently fighting.
I'm contaminating the timeline by going back
Many times temporal intervention has been noticeably *not* been enforced by the time cops.....but almsot always this is when not intervening would directly aid the federation.
By bringing us to the 25th century, he is ensuring that we do pollute it. Everything we do after is the result of temporal meddling, because otherwise we wouldn't be there to do it.
The whole game is actually 4 (and even that is a stretch as it's more 3) timelines depending on the faction you choose, anyway.
Except our fate is a result of Na'kuhl meddling with Kor. Daniels just makes sure there is a captain to complete its destiny in the 25th century.
I dunno, but I seem to remember Gav died in his episode. As for the Tholian fleet, no, because that's why the Tholian went after the Na'kuhl and wrecked their sun. History says both died (OK, nobody knew what really happened with the Defiant, but same difference), and that's what happened.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Something about Daniels feels more like adjusting events on top of direct countering, and he isn't as up front with us as Walker either.
I'd like to see them in opposition at some point.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
And its a future directly dependent on them choosing to intervene in temporal events that are detrimental to them personally, while ignoring temporal incursions that actually benefit them. It's hypocritical because they themselves are using time travel for their own benefit, while restricting everyone else from using it for themselves.
It's also a violation of the prime directive to the absurd extreme. Look at how the Iconian war unfolded. If we hadn't gone back in time, the Iconians would have been around to destroy Romulus or unleash the Elachi, Solanae, Vaadwaur, or Heralds on the Galaxy. The Romulans (survivors) and Klingons wouldn't be as inclined to join the Galactic Federation.
Any questions?
My character Tsin'xing
"No matter where you go...there you are."
So, when the events of tomorrow happen... How do we know that it is the way, it is supposed to be? And not just some machination of a temporal interloper?
To be fair to that - that one isn't there fault, it's a predestination paradox on a massive scale and seems to be the 2410 Alliance's fault.
And the use of the 'time portal' technology there seems to be an 'easier' form on time travel to do, making incursions more common and opening the Pandora's box.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
The universe has a wonderful sense of humor. The trick is learning how to take a joke.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
So? There's nothing in Trek that dictates that predestination paradoxes can't be broken in Trek.
The finale to VOY was Janeway time traveling back into the past to prevent the occurrences which would have led to her time travelling from happening....breaking the chain of cause and effect.
Heck, earlier in Voyager, Braxton ...from the 29th century created a predestination paradox which was then prevented by destroying his ship keeping Earth from being destroyed in the 29th century and thus preventing his reason for time traveling in the first place.
True. There's an issue of scale.
The predestination paradox in question shaped the quadrant for hundreds of thousands of years, affecting billions of people. The effect of altering the flow of events leading to the loss and return of the World Heart would be an incalculable change on the flow of events known to everyone current time travelling, so it seems everyone is treading cautiously up to 'after' the paradox is closed at the end of the Iconian War for tampering with events.
(Imagine if the Iconians didn't tamper on Tau Dewa, for instance - the Romulan Star Empire could have started there, instead, decades earlier with a larger population, possibly leading to victory in the Earth-Romulan War thanks to that increased boost.)
Predestination paradoxes make my head hurt.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
That's essentially the heart of it, and that's the reason why I'm enjoying this story arc as much as I am. I've always preferred Deep Space Nine's Federation (a flawed government run by fallible beings) to the Original Series' Federation (such a perfect utopia that it's unrecognizable as human and impossible to relate to, even while it hypocritically delivers Cold War propaganda and whitewashes American colonialism). That the Original Series Era is getting thrown into the mix while the story is deconstructing the idea of the Federation's moral perfection is part of the charm, to me.
None of our interventions in the past seem to go well for Daniels. He end up in worse and worse shape with each one. So forgive me if I don't agree that he's doing this for personal gain.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
That's why I prefer DS9. I really dislike the patronizing colonialism TOS (and sometimes TNG) could wallow in.
I do not think that Trek has really shown that sort of degree of introspection in regards to the Time Police that got introduced in VOY and ENT though, because the narrative doesn't really examine the ethics of a bunch of 31st century timelords controlling events behind the scenes and steering the galaxy towards a their desires.
STO is even worse, because about half of its plots are involved in time travel of some variety or another, and they temporal agents of one century or another rather prominently.
I'm not arguing that he's doing it for his own personal gain, but rather for the benefit of the 31st Century Federation (and only the 31st century federation), like the rest of the time cops.
In ST I believe this is what happens. Daniels and the other time enforcers know events from A to B and they believe they need to ensure it happens the way they have a record of it. But since they don't see all of time, their actions are also very limited and mistakes are made. For instance, where are the enforcers from the 55th century and so on? We don't see them, but maybe the same way Daniels has us do things a given way according to his records, maybe other enfoircers from other times do the same to Daniels, and so on. A chain of temporal actions that in the end are miningless because all is as it is.
I confused myself...