None of our interventions in the past seem to go well for Daniels. He end up in worse and worse shape with each one. So forgive me if I don't agree that he's doing this for personal gain.
Daniels ending up worse and worse has nothing to do with us, it has to do with "The Envoy"
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
^I really didn't want to hear that, But I have a sneaking suspicion I'm right too.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time we are hinted in a way to make us think something just to be surprised afterwards and realise it wasn't anything like that. But...we'll see...
I still think it turns out that you (the player) have been in command of the Temporal Defense Taskalliance Strikeiniative Counterdelta the entire time, thus the only correct timeline is the one that sees you ascend to supreme power, making you judge, jury, and executioner of the timestream.
Temporal Agent: "This thing happened in the past."
You: "Oh, cool. Does it affect anything?"
Temporal Agent: "I guess some alien species became way more advanced by like 200 years more than they should have been. Other than that, no big deal."
You: "Yeah, that thing was totally supposed to happen in the timeline. Let it go."
Temporal Agent: "Oh, this other thing happened too."
You: "Oh, cool. Does it affect anything?"
Temporal Agent: "Yeah, I guess Annorax ends up taking your job, then calls you a dumbass before executing you by erasing your involvement with the temporal initiativeforce taskcounter delta command. Incidentally, it also ended up creating universal permanent peace, all diseases have been cured, all pain and suffering has been eliminated, and literally everybody is happy up until the heat death of the universe. I've talked to like 50 other guys and they said it was the most perfect future ever created."
You: "Oh, that wasn't supposed to happen. Round up the gang and alter the timeline so that doesn't happen. We have to protect the timeline! It's our sworn duty to tackle any problem that threatens the timeline!"
The destruction of the Tholian Fleet set up what happened in Future Proof. The Na'kuhl went back in time. And took out a colony ship that had a generation full of Tholians. The Tholians sent out the message of what happened. Which would explain why many yrs later, they took out the Na'Kuhl's star. In a form of payback. Its kinda like what happened with Sela and the Iconians.
It's worse, in a way. 'Temporal Ambassador', and possibly even 'Yesterday's Enterprise', are revealed to be the result of Na'kuhl tampering. The Na'kuhl may very well have caused Sela to be born!
On another note, I find it interesting that it's hinted that the Envoy is 'Future Guy', more so since he seems to have more advanced time travel tech than he did... and even more so since his actions and those of his Suliban cronies have actively interfered with his 'allies', the Na'kuhl (Vosk two-parter) and Tuterians (Xindi arc) in Enterprise...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
I
Taking just the Defiant or the space station in one of the latest episodes as an example: who is Daniels to decide that their fate is to die on board of those structures? Both the station and the ship were lost as a direct result of things done by the Na'kuhl. The loss of the Tholian fleet is just another example: just because it drives the Tholians back and encourages them to not expand outwards, thereby avoiding conflict with the Federation, Daniels and the like don't consider it necessary to correct this incursion.
This is the fundamental problem with your argument, you act like Daniels decided these things had to be this way. He did not, history did.
All of these things happened the way they did long before Daniel was born. He's just making sure they happen that way again.
It is morally and objectively wrong to alter someone's history, even if it means them having a better life. Nature must take its course, suffering and death included.
But I do sometimes wonder what happened to the Federation of Picard, with its principles of non-interference (like in Insurrection) or the Federation where 'the needs of the many' wasn't abused in that 'the few', even when they were entire species, basically just had to suck it up.
The things you complain about Daniels doing are just that. The Temporal Agency does nothing to alter the past, even if it could mean more people living better lives, because that's not the way history unfolded in the first place. All they do is go back to try to undo other races temporal changes, and they do so in the most secretive way possible, while following a temporal Prime Directive, to make sure their impact is as little as possible, and so that they interact with history as little as possible.
The destruction of the Tholian fleet, and possibly the assasination of the Tellarite ambassador, are just a few examples of changes that were not corrected.
Were they not important enough? Perhaps a bit too convenient for the Federation and the time agents? Whatever the reasons, the temporal agents and the Federation should at least stop pretending that they're the good guys. They are as much doing things for selfish reasons as those they are currently fighting.
Both of those things always happened that way though. Kal Dano specifically states in an early Future Proof mission that the Tholians are going to attack the Na'khul using the Tox Utat as revenge for Na'Khul attacks against the Tholians in the past. It happened long before you even did it.
Also, the Tholians caused their own problems by being xenophobic idiots, and seeking petty revenge by attacking the Na'Khul star.
The Na'Khul likewise only have themselves to blame for the nuking of their star, as, had THEY not gone back in time to seek petty revenge against the Tholians, the Tholians would have never destroyed their star.
Similarly, the Sphere Builders are only to blame for their own predicament, as, had they not sought petty revenge against the Federation, and gone back in time to try to prevent the Federation from being created, the Federation would have never bee created the way it was, and the Tuterian's death would have likely been avoided.
The same is true for Sela and the Iconians cycle of revenge.
Noye is also responsible for his own wife's death, as, had he not time traveled, recruited temporal powers, and attacked the Federation at Prcyon V, the Sphere Builders would have never been defeated there, and they would have never gone back in time to try to rpevent the Federation from being created, resulting in the Federation being created, thus allowing them to build the Annorax, and destroy the tuterian's.
Quite literally, all of the Iconian/Future Proof/AoY/Yesterday's war stroyline is about how petty revenge ended up only causing more revenge, which in turn caused more revenge.
Err.. I have to say. Bravo but another thing TRIBBLE Temporal Mechanics and Predestination Paradoxes too.
However, the entire storyline is pretty good in terms of the TOS era - Future Proof I liked they fixed up somethings, which were wrong before this expansion came out like Surface Tension and etc.
The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
The thing the I see as their (31st century Feds) justification for all of these incursions/temporal events is that they are in a Cold War, I.e. if they don't do X that Y is doing, then Z will happen, with Z being total annihilation. Therefore the federation government believes that they can justify immoral and dangerous actions to the people if they keep pushing the MAD modus operandi. So basically the 31st century Feds are the US during the Cold War, if one views it through that lens, everything starts to mak a certain sense
It's worse, in a way. 'Temporal Ambassador', and possibly even 'Yesterday's Enterprise', are revealed to be the result of Na'kuhl tampering. The Na'kuhl may very well have caused Sela to be born!
One thing they did right in Temporal Ambassador is
Making Noye a nicer person. This was a pleasant addition.
Tbh i like walker he has a good grasp of things, he doesnt do more then what is supposed to happen, on the other hand daniels seems to have an agenda or at the least his own bias of whats supposed to happen.
Walker will atleast try and explain in a way that clears things but yet not adversley affect the timeline, daniels just says "trust that were doing the right thing", given the option i would rather work with captain walker.
I am starting to think that the envoy maybe be some sort of clone of Daniels somehow and that, the Envoy will end up looking like Daniels and Daniels will end up looking like the Envoy
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I am starting to think that the envoy maybe be some sort of clone of Daniels somehow and that, the Envoy will end up looking like Daniels and Daniels will end up looking like the Envoy
The only arcs to feature time travel as a major theme are the Iconian war, Future Proof/AoY, and Devidian Arcs. And the one off mission of Temporal Ambassador.
also it becomes major thing in later part of klingon war [at least on fed side]
as for envoy daniels thing....
I though it all was clearly explained in those two new future proof episodes?
envoy is holo-hidden noye, as in the first of those two episodes you can see as he shrugs the envoy when he "transforms" into noye, and daniels looking worse and worse is because of envoy noye tampering in each cycle battle of procyon 5 gets worse and apparently daniels was someone always in front line of it leading the charge and hence in each iteration of changes [more stuff being brought to the table on sphere builders side] he ends up being more injured and because daniles we deal with is post procy-5 daniels hence he's face gets more wounds - up to our sto iteration when daniels gets killed and its up to players to "carry" the battle and by capturing noye we prevent him from changing timeline again to bring more forces to that battle.....
think of it like battle of procyon 5 que being iterations how said battle was going on - originally, envoy workings no1, envoy workings no2, with ragnarok mission being last iteration with noye bringing everything to the table.....
i think the envoy is mirror daniels - why else would cryptic bring up mirror temporal shenanigans in their most recent story blog?
Almost. Others have mentioned that's not correct, but I'll add a little something as a big spoiler you shouldn't read unless you want the TCW over already:
The mirror universe is involved, yes. But it's Leeta who is the antagonist here, providing you know who is the Envoy with enough troops to try and overwhelm the Federation at Procyon V.
Also, it seems the Defiant landing in the Mirror Universe wasn't entirely due to what happened in The Tangled Web and TOS: The Tholian's Web.
the funny thing is that the time travels are impossible. Einstein's theories can foresee a possibility, but the new research shows it it will not be possible. if someone wanted to travel in time, he should be able to predict all the events, even the smallest events. And each tiny event creates its own future, so even if time travel could be possible, we will not travel in THE future, but in a possible future of 1 of the possible dimensions (if the Superstring theory is correct). damn' i hate of these temporal stuff
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
I have a feeling you're right
It's quite obvious actually. As soon as Daniels received the "temporal side effect" skin damage thing it was as clear as day.
The real question now is what is Daniels trying to accomplish?
1. His disfigurement is a result of the constant time travel (remember the effects on 7 of 9?) and either he's trying to prevent his own death or reverse the death of another
2. He doesn't know what he will become leading to a confrontation with his future self who has decided all the choices he made were wrong and he's trying to rewrite history to change them
3. Other...?
None of our interventions in the past seem to go well for Daniels. He end up in worse and worse shape with each one. So forgive me if I don't agree that he's doing this for personal gain.
Daniels ending up worse and worse has nothing to do with us, it has to do with "The Envoy"
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
the funny thing is that the time travels are impossible. Einstein's theories can foresee a possibility, but the new research shows it it will not be possible. if someone wanted to travel in time, he should be able to predict all the events, even the smallest events. And each tiny event creates its own future, so even if time travel could be possible, we will not travel in THE future, but in a possible future of 1 of the possible dimensions (if the Superstring theory is correct). damn' i hate of these temporal stuff
Actually you are incorrect. Read this space.com/21675-time-travel.html
None of our interventions in the past seem to go well for Daniels. He end up in worse and worse shape with each one. So forgive me if I don't agree that he's doing this for personal gain.
Daniels ending up worse and worse has nothing to do with us, it has to do with "The Envoy"
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
I'll say it for you... Daniels IS THE ENVOY!
Yup. Going back and watching the Enterprise series I wonder if this was the continuation of the story all along. The one question I always had was why did Silik help Archer? When he started talking about Daniels and how he once helped the Cobal I started putting the pieces together.
The benefactor is using the Cobal
Daniels once helped the Cobal
One of the benefactors enemies was Vosk
Daniels main enemy was Vosk
Silik ends with telling Archer his benefactor and Daniels will always be enemies.
This during a period where both Silik and Daniels die, offering a suggestion that Silik knows the benefactor and Daniels are the same. Ultimately helping Archer in a plan that results in basically the resurrection of Daniels. So in the end, who was Silik really helping? If Daniels dies right there, assuming he is the benefactor, then the benefactor never is and the Na'Khul would have left earth in ruin and returned to their time. In fact, the Cobal would have never been modified and manipulated and a whole bunch of stuff wouldn't have happened.
And now, as the Envoy, Daniels is at it again from the future finding a way to manipulate the Na'Khul as he did with the Cobal.
I'm still not clear on which one is the bad one. The future version or the "current" version? The Benefactor/Envoy or Daniels?
Though I am still wondering if the Envoy is the same person as Future Guy. The Envoy doesn't have to deal with the limitations that Future Guy had to deal with like only being able to send images of themselves through time.
the funny thing is that the time travels are impossible. Einstein's theories can foresee a possibility, but the new research shows it it will not be possible. if someone wanted to travel in time, he should be able to predict all the events, even the smallest events. And each tiny event creates its own future, so even if time travel could be possible, we will not travel in THE future, but in a possible future of 1 of the possible dimensions (if the Superstring theory is correct). damn' i hate of these temporal stuff
Actually the funny thing is that so much thought impossible at some time became quite common at another.
We have no idea of it's possible or not and we only guess how things would work if it were. Imagine that you can indeed travel through time but you can not interact with it. Imagine you're "out of phase" and can only observe. Imagine that everytime a time travel takes place a new temporal line is created and therefore the original one has no alteration and maybe you can't go back. Imagine that when a temporal paradox is created time corrects itslef and rewrites itself and you don't even know you time traveled. There are endless possibilities. Not being possible is also a possibility.
Comments
My character Tsin'xing
I've only done the first two missions where Daniels has been severely disfigured. And "The Envoy" is so horribly disfigured you can't even tell what species he is.
I'm getting a funny feeling about all of this. I just hope I'm wrong.
I have a feeling you're right
Well, it wouldn't be the first time we are hinted in a way to make us think something just to be surprised afterwards and realise it wasn't anything like that. But...we'll see...
Temporal Agent: "This thing happened in the past."
You: "Oh, cool. Does it affect anything?"
Temporal Agent: "I guess some alien species became way more advanced by like 200 years more than they should have been. Other than that, no big deal."
You: "Yeah, that thing was totally supposed to happen in the timeline. Let it go."
Temporal Agent: "Oh, this other thing happened too."
You: "Oh, cool. Does it affect anything?"
Temporal Agent: "Yeah, I guess Annorax ends up taking your job, then calls you a dumbass before executing you by erasing your involvement with the temporal initiativeforce taskcounter delta command. Incidentally, it also ended up creating universal permanent peace, all diseases have been cured, all pain and suffering has been eliminated, and literally everybody is happy up until the heat death of the universe. I've talked to like 50 other guys and they said it was the most perfect future ever created."
You: "Oh, that wasn't supposed to happen. Round up the gang and alter the timeline so that doesn't happen. We have to protect the timeline! It's our sworn duty to tackle any problem that threatens the timeline!"
It's worse, in a way. 'Temporal Ambassador', and possibly even 'Yesterday's Enterprise', are revealed to be the result of Na'kuhl tampering. The Na'kuhl may very well have caused Sela to be born!
On another note, I find it interesting that it's hinted that the Envoy is 'Future Guy', more so since he seems to have more advanced time travel tech than he did... and even more so since his actions and those of his Suliban cronies have actively interfered with his 'allies', the Na'kuhl (Vosk two-parter) and Tuterians (Xindi arc) in Enterprise...
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Err.. I have to say. Bravo but another thing TRIBBLE Temporal Mechanics and Predestination Paradoxes too.
However, the entire storyline is pretty good in terms of the TOS era - Future Proof I liked they fixed up somethings, which were wrong before this expansion came out like Surface Tension and etc.
Walker will atleast try and explain in a way that clears things but yet not adversley affect the timeline, daniels just says "trust that were doing the right thing", given the option i would rather work with captain walker.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Fixed that for you.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
also it becomes major thing in later part of klingon war [at least on fed side]
as for envoy daniels thing....
I though it all was clearly explained in those two new future proof episodes?
think of it like battle of procyon 5 que being iterations how said battle was going on - originally, envoy workings no1, envoy workings no2, with ragnarok mission being last iteration with noye bringing everything to the table.....
Also, it seems the Defiant landing in the Mirror Universe wasn't entirely due to what happened in The Tangled Web and TOS: The Tholian's Web.
It's quite obvious actually. As soon as Daniels received the "temporal side effect" skin damage thing it was as clear as day.
The real question now is what is Daniels trying to accomplish?
1. His disfigurement is a result of the constant time travel (remember the effects on 7 of 9?) and either he's trying to prevent his own death or reverse the death of another
2. He doesn't know what he will become leading to a confrontation with his future self who has decided all the choices he made were wrong and he's trying to rewrite history to change them
3. Other...?
I'll say it for you... Daniels IS THE ENVOY!
Actually you are incorrect. Read this space.com/21675-time-travel.html
Yup. Going back and watching the Enterprise series I wonder if this was the continuation of the story all along. The one question I always had was why did Silik help Archer? When he started talking about Daniels and how he once helped the Cobal I started putting the pieces together.
The benefactor is using the Cobal
Daniels once helped the Cobal
One of the benefactors enemies was Vosk
Daniels main enemy was Vosk
Silik ends with telling Archer his benefactor and Daniels will always be enemies.
This during a period where both Silik and Daniels die, offering a suggestion that Silik knows the benefactor and Daniels are the same. Ultimately helping Archer in a plan that results in basically the resurrection of Daniels. So in the end, who was Silik really helping? If Daniels dies right there, assuming he is the benefactor, then the benefactor never is and the Na'Khul would have left earth in ruin and returned to their time. In fact, the Cobal would have never been modified and manipulated and a whole bunch of stuff wouldn't have happened.
And now, as the Envoy, Daniels is at it again from the future finding a way to manipulate the Na'Khul as he did with the Cobal.
I'm still not clear on which one is the bad one. The future version or the "current" version? The Benefactor/Envoy or Daniels?
Though I am still wondering if the Envoy is the same person as Future Guy. The Envoy doesn't have to deal with the limitations that Future Guy had to deal with like only being able to send images of themselves through time.
Actually the funny thing is that so much thought impossible at some time became quite common at another.
We have no idea of it's possible or not and we only guess how things would work if it were. Imagine that you can indeed travel through time but you can not interact with it. Imagine you're "out of phase" and can only observe. Imagine that everytime a time travel takes place a new temporal line is created and therefore the original one has no alteration and maybe you can't go back. Imagine that when a temporal paradox is created time corrects itslef and rewrites itself and you don't even know you time traveled. There are endless possibilities. Not being possible is also a possibility.