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Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser

Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser

Warning #1: Wall Of Text™ Crits You!!!

Warning #2: This build is so far "off-meta" right now that a lot of the Conventional Wisdom about how it "ought to" be working (ie. poorly) simply breaks down and fails to accurately predict actual in game performance.

This started out as THE "Balanced Budget Build" for Season 11.5 as a Profession agnostic/Ship agnostic skill build that could be used by ANY captain to fly ANY ship. Then I tested out Rapid Turrets vs Over Arrays for Plasmonic Leeching on a Polaron Drain Cruiser and was rather startled by the results (Spoiler Alert: Turrets roflstomped Beams for performance by millions thousands of miles). So with those experiences under my rear arc, I started looking around for opportunities to optimize the combination.

So one of the surprising results of the Turrets and Torpedoes setup was that the faster firing cycle of Turrets (3 seconds instead of 5 seconds) meant that they were way more effective at draining Power, to the point where the Turrets were more reliably "turning the lights off" simply because the dice chucking happens more often, but the procs still last just as long. This was really brought home by the way that just getting the Neutronic Torpedo to hit something and combining the reliable Power drain from that with either a Polaron proc or just the Plasmonic Leech or even a Tyken's Rift I for reliably draining all Power out of a target.

So I started out with a set of six [Rapid] Polaron Turrets and had good results and figured … why not reach for what the conventional wisdom has completely written off as worthless and see if that will work? So yes, I picked up some Protonic Polaron Turrets for testing, because they were cheap, at which point I had a decision (since they're bought out of the Dyson Reputation Store). What mods did I want on my Protonic Turrets?

The usual answer is to go straight for [CrtH] to maximize the opportunities for the Proton Damage to proc, but then looking at them closely I decided I wanted to orient towards Accuracy Overflow rather than stacking up Critical Hit. Why? Because the difference was either +4% [CrtH] or +2.5% [CrtH] with +10% [CrtD] when converting [Acc]x2 into [CrtH] and [CrtD] via Accuracy Overflow (it's +1.25% / +5% per 10% of Accuracy Overflow). It was literally a difference of 1.5% [CrtH] to have weapons that can more reliably shoot down Destructible Torpedos, Mines and Fighters by pushing further into the Never Miss territory. The difference that makes to the proc rates of Proton Burn (which is how it parses) is literally less than a 0.4% reduction in the chance to proc extra damage out of the Turrets. In other words, something easily sacrificed in favor of having weapons that Just Don't Miss. Furthermore, since Turrets are "light and fast" rather than "slow and heavy" they individually benefit less in absolute terms when it comes to Critical Hits. This meant that, to me, the Critical Hits were less valuable than they might have been with other weapon types (such as Beams).

So I've got what most people would consider to be severely off-meta "trash" weapons as my "main" armament, that no one in their right mind ought to be using. Why? Because the proc is worthless (25% chance on Crits?) and they're [Acc]x2 instead of being something "useful" (for PvE, no less) and they won't generate screamingly high damage numbers.

And yet … this ship has just been almost literally unbelievable in how well it performs in actual gameplay.

I can't stress this enough … this is a Whole Package That Is More Than The Sum Of Its Parts.

Just take a look at the tooltips I've got linked in the build below and just the sheer number of procs that every single Turret has going for it. Now realize that each Turret is chucking all of those dice every 3 seconds … and I've got 6 Turrets that are CONSTANTLY chucking dice at my target(s). This means that Stuff Procs™ … A LOT.

So this build is not only a Drain Cruiser, it's also a Buff Stripper … which is not exactly the same as a Debuffer. Every 3 seconds, my Turrets have a combined chance to:
Strip 3 Random Buffs (3x EWO): 1-(0.99^18)= 16.5% chance
Strip 1 Random Buff (Radiant Detonation): 1-(0.975^6)= 14.09% chance
Drain Power (Polaron proc): 1-(0.975^6)= 14.09% chance for -75.9 All Power for 5 sec
Expose to Torpedo Exploits: 1-(0.98^6)= 11.4% chance

That's getting dangerously close to "roll a 1 on 1d6/1d7/1d9" territory every 3 seconds because of the firing speed of the Turrets for EACH of those procs, and because they're Turrets, EVERYTHING within 10 km of my ship is "in arc" and in range. I'm actually "throwing enough dice" at the problem to stand a reasonable chance of not only draining Power, but also to negate Buffs on my target(s).

In other words, my Offense is my Defense. I'm actually using my Turrets to SHUT OFF Temporal Distortions and Tractor Beams in Na'Kul Red Alerts prematurely.

But wait, it gets better.

All of those Turrets firing nigh constantly every 3 seconds "supercharges" the performance of the Solanae 3-piece Set Bonus and also the Energy Refrequencer Trait, to create an absolutely staggering amount of Hull Healing. I hardly ever need to reach for my Engineering Team to actually heal my Hull. At the same time, all of that Turret fire is rapidly draining Power reliably out of my target(s) and transferring it to me via Plasmonic Leech. This weakens their Shields and Engines faster and creates huge compounding vulnerabilities in both reduced Shield strength and in lowered Defense … which my high Accuracy weapons then exploit quite ruthlessly. It essentially creates a cascading failure condition that leaves my targets as helpless as sitting ducks.

AND … as if that wasn't enough … I've got both Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift in the build for some especially nasty surprises, especially since my Captain Skills include both Control Amplification (Resistance Debuff) and Drain Infection (bonus Electrical Damage). And I've got those Science Skills being augmented by Torpedo Astrometric Synergy, in which I merely need to activate my Torpedo Skills to get the cooldown reduction … and I've got both High Yield and Spread available to me. This means I can throw down Wells and Rifts and not be too concerned about how long it's going to take before I can use another one. At the level of [DrainX] boosting I'm using on this build, combined with Plasmonic Leech drain and Neutronic power drain and Polaron drain, I can practically use my Tyken's Rift as a coup de gras against a single target of opportunity almost with impunity.

And that's before tossing both Cannon Rapid Fire AND Scatter Volley onto the bonfire, combined with Deft Cannoneer … AND the fact that the Weapon Aura on a Cruiser reduces the cost of firing a Turret down from -8 to -6.4 Weapon Power, and I'm getting +4.6 All Power back thanks to Plasmonic Leech. That means I'm only "burning" about -9 Power to run 6 Turrets, and I've got an EPS Transfer rate of 8 Power per second.

In actual gameplay, this ship is something which hasn't existed for what seems like a really long time. It's a PRESSURE build, and one that doesn't post big damage numbers, but it Gets The Job Done faster than just about anything else. Rather than "overpowering" the enemy, it "underpowers" them and makes them extremely vulnerable, to the point of being helpless to avert their own destruction. This combination is capable of delivering some serious damage spikes, especially when the Torpedoes impact unshielded hull (which happens A LOT) and the Command Specialization Skills have a lot to do with making those Torpedo hits even more punishing through Exploits.

To be quite honest, this whole experiment has been WAY more successful than it has any right to be, and I have Season 11.5 to thank for it. In this build, absolutely EVERYTHING comes together into being an interleaving and interdependent whole where there is so much "dice chucking" going on that it's pretty much inevitable that something is going to "go badly" for my target(s). It's almost frightening just how well suited the Fleet Support Cruiser Refit (T5-U) is for this role and this build, since just about every aspect of the build hits some synergistic sweet spot that reinforces everything else. This is not a One Trick Pony build ... it's a several trick ponies build that relies on Weapons and Science to deal with practically anything.

So far as I can determine, nothing else other than the Fleet Support Cruiser Refit (T5-U) offers the following smorgasbord of possibilities:
2 Lieutenant Tactical + 1 Ensign Tactical
1 Lieutenant Commander Science
8 Weapons
4 Science Consoles
This ship truly is (I feel) the best "balance" of Engineering, Tactical and Science possible for a "down the drain" Polaron proc and Plasmonic Leech based Drain Cruiser that the game has to offer. Nothing else can DO what this ship DOES.

And the scary thing is ... I haven't even started upgrading anything yet and the build is ALREADY this consistently good of a performer ... :o
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    **Ship Information**

    *Ship Name* | U.S.S. Gardenia
    *Ship Class* | Fleet Support Cruiser Refit (T5-U)
    *Ship Model* | NCC-101076
    *Beauty Shot 1* | Screenshot
    *Beauty Shot 2* | Screenshot
    *UI Shot* | Screenshot

    *Captain Name* | Roxanne Flowers
    *Captain Career* | Engineering
    *Captain Faction* | Starfleet
    *Captain Species* | Human
    *Primary Specialization* | Command
    *Secondary Specialization* | Commando
    *Intended Role* | PvE Power Drain/Buff Stripping For FUN!!

    **Ship Loadout**

    **Fore Weapons**
    Neutronic Torpedo Launcher Mk XII | (VR) Delta Alliance Ordnance (1 of 2)
    Quantum Phase Torpedo Launcher Mk XII | (VR) Quantum Phase Catalysts (1 of 2)
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)
    **Aft Weapons**
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)
    Protonic Polaron Turret Mk XII [Acc]x2 | (VR)

    **Deflector** | Solanae Deflector Mk XII | (VR) Solanae Hybrid Technologies (1 of 4)
    **Impulse Engines** | Solanae Hyper-Efficient Impulse Engines Mk XII | (VR) Solanae Hybrid Technologies (2 of 4)
    **Warp Core** | Solanae Overcharged Warp Core Mk XII | (VR) Solanae Hybrid Technologies (3 of 4)
    **Shields** | Solanae Resilient Shield Array Mk XII | (VR) Solanae Hybrid Technologies (4 of 4)

    **Devices**
    Weapons Battery
    Shield Battery
    Nimbus Distress Call
    Auxiliary Battery

    **Engineering Consoles**
    Bio-Neural Gel Pack | (VR) Delta Alliance Ordnance (2 of 2)
    Plasmonic Leech | -4.6/+4.6 to all Power settings for 15 seconds
    Quantum Phase Converter Mk XII | (VR) Quantum Phase Catalysts (2 of 2)
    Zero-Point Energy Conduit Mk XII | (VR)

    **Science Consoles**
    Restorative Particle Focuser Mk XII [DrainX]x2 | (UR)
    Restorative Particle Focuser Mk XII [DrainX]x2 | (UR)
    Restorative Particle Focuser Mk XII [DrainX]x2 | (UR)
    Restorative Particle Focuser Mk XII [DrainX]x2 | (UR)

    **Tactical Consoles**
    Vulnerability Locator Mk XII [Polaron] | (UR)
    Vulnerability Locator Mk XII [Polaron] | (UR)
    Vulnerability Locator Mk XII [Polaron] | (UR)

    **BRIDGE OFFICERS**
    Universal/Tactical (VR Human): Torpedo: High Yield I | Cannon: Rapid Fire I
    Tactical (VR Human): Torpedo: Spread I | Cannon: Scatter Volley I
    Tactical (VR Human): Tactical Team I
    Engineering (VR Human): Engineering Team I | Emergency Power to Shields II | Emergency Power to Weapons III | Eject Warp Plasma III
    Science (VR Human) | Science Team I | Tyken's Rift I | Gravity Well I

    **DUTY OFFICERS**
    Energy Weapon Officer (VR): On activation of beams or cannons, provides a 1% chance to remove 3 random currently applied buffs from your target. Targets hit with this effect become immune to it for 15 seconds.
    Energy Weapon Officer (VR): On activation of beams or cannons, provides a 1% chance to remove 3 random currently applied buffs from your target. Targets hit with this effect become immune to it for 15 seconds.
    Energy Weapon Officer (VR): On activation of beams or cannons, provides a 1% chance to remove 3 random currently applied buffs from your target. Targets hit with this effect become immune to it for 15 seconds.
    Projectile Weapon Officer (VR): 20% chance to reduce recharge time by 5 seconds for all Torpedo Launchers.
    Projectile Weapon Officer (VR): 20% chance to reduce recharge time by 5 seconds for all Torpedo Launchers.
    Projectile Weapon Officer (VR): 20% chance to reduce recharge time by 5 seconds for all Torpedo Launchers.
    Post edited by autumnturning on
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Traits and Reputation

    Active Personal Traits
    1 Accurate: +10% Accuracy
    2 Astrophysicist: +10 Drain Expertise, +10 Exotic Particle Generation, +10 Sensors
    3 Cannon Training: +5% Cannon Weapon Damage
    4 Deft Cannoneer: to self: +0.1 Flight Friction for 30 sec, to self: +0.1 Inertia for 30 sec, to self: +1 Flight Turn Rate for 30 sec
    5 EPS Manifold Efficiency: +10 all Power on use of Emergency Power to subsystem abilities
    6 Fleet Coordinator: +2% All Damage per Team member (Self included), up to 10%
    7 Give Your All: On activation of Engineering Bridge Officer ability: Reduce incoming damage by 20% for 3 sec
    8 Grace Under Fire: If you take more than 20% of your hitpoints in damage within a 5 second period, the cooldown on Miracle Worker is reset. This trait will only trigger when Miracle Worker is already on cooldown, and can only trigger once every 90 seconds.
    9 Invasive Control Programming: When you use certain Control powers, also cause a random Subsystem Disable for 12.1 sec


    Reputation Space Passives
    1 Energy Refrequencer: Receive 2.5% of your outgoing damage as a Hull heal to you (Triggers up to 10 times per second)
    2 Radiant Detonation Matrix: Directed energy weapons have a chance to deal additional radiation damage and remove buffs in a small area around the target. (@ 130 Aux Power)
    3 Torpedo Astrometric Synergy: Using a Torpedo Bridge Officer ability reduces remaining recharge of Science Bridge Officer abilities by 15%
    4 Auxiliary Power Configuration - Defense: In space combat you gain a bonus to Maximum Hull HP, Maximum Shield HP, Kinetic and Energy Damage Resistance Rating that scales based on your Auxiliary Power Level. (@ 130 Aux Power)
    5 Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense: In space combat you gain a damage and accuracy boost based on your Auxiliary Power Level. (@ 130 Aux Power)

    Active Space Reputation Traits
    1 Quantum Singularity Manipulation: +100 to Science Stats for 8 sec. After 3 seconds, cloaks your ship for 5 sec. During this time, you may fire your weapons normally.
    2 Deploy Sensor Interference Platform: Creates a level 60 Sensor Interference Platform for 45 sec

    Starship Traits Notes Acquisition and Alternatives
    1 Improved Command Frequency: Improves the cooldown of "Fleet Support" abilities and removes the "Low Health" restriction. Cooldown reduction is -10 minutes for Improved Command Frequency.
    2 Improved Pedal to the Metal: +2% All Damage Bonus per 2 seconds spent at Full Throttle (max 10 stacks). All stacks immediately lost if your throttle is dropped.
    3 Weapon System Synergy: Each time a directed energy weapon is activated on your ship, you will shunt a small amount of power to your projectile emitters. This is represented by building up stacks of Weapon System Synergy. Upon reaching 10 stacks, your projectile weapons will become primed and deal additional damage and shield bleedthrough for several seconds. After this expires there is a short lockout window before you can begin building up Weapon System Synergy stacks again.
    4 Withering Barrage: While this trait is equipped, the duration of your Cannon: Scatter Volley is increased by 4 seconds.

    Other Information

    Weapons Power: 77/50
    Shield Power: 80/50
    Engine Power: 75/50
    Auxiliary Power: 88/50

    SET BONUSES
    1 Delta Alliance Ordnance (2): +13.8% Radiation Damage, +20% Cooldown reduction to Neutronic Torpedo
    2 Quantum Phase Catalysts (2): +15% Accuracy, Doubles potency of Quantum Phase Weapons shield drain, Doubles potency of Quantum Phase High-Yield Torpedo shield heal
    3 Solanae Hybrid Technologies (4): +3.6 Shield Power Setting, +2.2 Shield Power (Bonus increased at low power), Energy Weapon attacks a 2.5% chance to repair your hull for 100% of the damage they deal once every second, Advanced Metaphasic Shields

    SKILLS AND STATS

    Stealth Detection Rating: 75.47 109.2 (@130 Aux Power)
    Power Transfer Rate: 160% 8.0/sec
    Bonus Defense: 52.5%
    Hull: 91,530 92,693 (@130 Aux Power)
    Hull Repair Rate: 186.5%/min
    Shield Regeneration Rate: 981.2 shield/6 sec 1227.1/6 sec (@130 Shield Power)
    Shields: 8611 8749 (@130 Aux Power)
    Kinetic Resists: 36.7% 39.5% (@130 Aux Power)
    Energy Resists: 36.7% 39.5% (@130 Aux Power)
    Bonus Accuracy: 38.7%
    Crit Chance: 9.1%
    Crit Severity: 50.0%
    Inertia: 40
    Flight Speed: 26.93
    Turn Rate: 11.5 deg./sec
    Starship Energy Weapon Training: 50
    Starship Projectile Weapon Training: 50
    Starship Weapon Accuracy: 50
    Starship Defense Maneuvering: 50
    Starship Hull Penetration: 50
    Starship Shield Weakening: 50
    Starship Weapon Specialization: 50
    Starship Weapon Amplification: 50
    Starship Tactical Readiness: 50
    Starship Shield Restoration: 50
    Starship Shield Capacity: 70
    Starship Shield Regeneration: 85
    Starship Shield Hardness: 85
    Starship Control Expertise: 100
    Starship Drain Expertise: 407
    Starship Exotic Particle Generator: 130
    Starship Scientific Readiness: 50
    Starship Hull Restoration: 50
    Starship Hull Capacity: 95
    Starship Energized Hull Plating: 60
    Starship Ablative Hull Plating: 60
    Starship Hull Regeneration: 68
    Starship Electro-Plasma System Flow: 60
    Starship Impulse Expertise: 50
    Starship Engineering Readiness: 50
    Post edited by autumnturning on
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    Concluding Remarks

    There's actually a number of potential variations to the build I've presented.

    The first and foremost would be switching out the Protonic Polarons for something else that does Polaron drain procs. The options though are surprisingly few:

    Normal / Crafted Polarons
    Protonic Polarons
    Phased Polarons
    Polarized Disruptors

    To my knowledge, these are the only energy weapons that offer Polaron Drain procs. I've tried crafted [Rapid] Polaron Turrets and haven't really noticed an appreciable difference from my experimental Protonic Polarons using the exact same build.

    I haven't tried Phased Polarons or Polarized Disruptors, mainly because I'm not space rich enough to indulge the fancy/fantasy, but of the two I'd lean towards the Phased Polarons being the more opportunistic since they would add extra procs for disabling subsystems into the mix which can cripple a target long enough to do some extremely serious damage to them, potentially even finishing them off.

    Other possible variations involve different choices of Traits, oriented towards different strengths and predilections of play style preferences.

    Another potentially very scary alternative would involve leveraging the Science Ultimate with [CrtD]x2 Protonic Polaron Turrets and Vulnerability Exploiters for some truly brutal Critical Hit production, which then in turn push the Proton proc chances up to 12.5% (50/4=12.5) per Turret. Firing 6 of those together yields a 55.1% chance of getting a Proton damage proc every 3 seconds for bonus damage on top of all the [CrtD] mayhem while the Science Ultimate is active.

    So at the very least, this build that I've found isn't SO TIGHT that there's no room in it to do anything differently. There's plenty of room to do a lot of things differently! But for me, I think I'm going to be sticking with my Protonic Pop Guns and enjoy melting shields and hulls way more effectively than I have any right to be doing. What can I say? I like pretty indigo-purple bolts that the Protonic Turrets machine gun towards things ... B)
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    adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    Sounds interesting... Have you thought perhaps to implement something similar on the Dyson ship itself? And perhaps using the Dyson rep tactical consoles for a little extra proton damage? Given the amount of proton on this thing. Admittedly the Dyson ship doesn't give you two Lt tacticals but it does offer a cmdr slot and with the console set even more proton stuff.

    For example, I did an "ALL the proton things!" build: http://www.kaysvaultofstuff.com/vaper-dyson.html and well... It was terrifying when it was new.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Yes, I did think about it ... and discarded the notion almost as quickly. Reason being is that you've only got 6 weapon slots open (Science Ship) rather than 8 (Cruiser), meaning I'd either have to dump the torpedoes to keep the 6 Turrets or drop 2 of the Turrets to keep the Torpedoes. Part of what makes this build work is having that many Turrets "chucking dice" at everything, so dropping 1/3rd of the Turrets really takes a bite out of the build. Yes, Sensor Analysis will (eventually) make up for that by debuffing the target, so the damage throughput is roughly comparable ... but the drain potential most certainly is not compensated by the loss.

    1-(0.975^6) = 14.09% chance for Polaron drain proc with 6 Turrets
    1-(0.975^4) = 9.63% chance for Polaron drain proc with 4 Turrets
    Loss of 2 Turrets = -4.46% chance to proc per salvo

    So the proc chance drops from being about "roll a 1" on a 1d7 to about a 1d10. That starts becoming too infrequent to be something you can count on (although Your Mileage May Vary of course). You'd have to experiment to know if the Leech drain from 6 Turrets backed by 4 Science Consoles is in any way comparable to what you'd get from 4 (or 5) Turrets backed by 4 (or 5) Science Consoles. My back of the napkin math trends towards the exchange not being equal. Plus you'd lose the Weapon Efficiency Aura from being a Cruiser, in exchange for the Sensor Analysis stacking buff/debuff. Questionable as to whether or not that would be worth it.

    As for using the Polaron/Proton/Accuracy Tactical Consoles, I had a few lying around and tested the proposition in orbit around ESD. The loss in Polaron damage (which happens every time) was not made up for in the Proton damage (which happens 25% of the time on critical hits) even just on the raw damage numbers in the tooltip, never mind normalizing for the critical hit numbers. In a direct comparison, this option was (in my estimation) a direct loss in performance to use the Auto-Target Consoles.

    The way I look at it is that the Protonic proc is simply bonus damage that falls in the "nice to have" rather than the "needs to happen" category. It's a friendly/opportunistic bump, rather than a cornerstone purpose of the build without which everything falls apart.

    But then compare the Protonic proc against the Plasma proc. Both do damage directly to hull, although the Protonic uses a damage type that is rarely/barely resisted. Plasma has a 2.5% chance to proc. To get the same performance out of Protonic, you need to have a 10% Critical Hit chance (because 25% chance on critical hits). I've got a 9.1% base Critical Hit chance, but due to captain skills I add +3% Critical Hit chance to that for both Energy and Kinetic Weapons (because I'm only investing 1 skill point into each). So right there, I'm at 12.1% Critical Hit chance even before factoring in Accuracy Overflow ... which because my power draining impacts Engine Power for my targets isn't going to be a constant, so as long as I'm hitting my target(s) I'm very likely to be getting more Critical Hit chance from Accuracy Overflow. How much? Can't say, but I've biased the build towards giving me as much as it can spare. But at a bare minimum, I've got at least a 3% chance to proc Protonic Burn on my target(s) instead of a 2.5% chance to proc Plasma Burn if I were using Plasma (energy) weapons.

    Yes, Protonics proc better/more often with higher Critical Chance, which is why the conventional wisdom always angled for getting your Critical Chance up to 20% or more with Beams, which then yields a 5% chance to proc Proton damage per salvo (because of the 25% chance on critical hits thing). But again, here's where the Turrets invert the conventional assumption about that.

    1-(0.95^3) = 14.26% chance to proc in 3 salvos over 15 seconds per Beam weapon @ 20% Critical Hit chance
    1-(0.97^5) = 14.13% chance to proc in 5 salvos over 15 seconds per Cannon weapon @ 12% Critical Hit chance

    In other words, with Cannons you can proc the Protonic burn just as often over time (on average) with a lower Critical Hit chance. Why? Faster salvos means more "dice chucking" in the same span of time. Thus, I can derive just as much damage throughput from Proton damage procs using Turrets as I would need when using Beams using only 60% of the Critical Hit chance I'd need for Beams. Why? 3 second salvos versus 5 second salvos ... and that's before getting into what Cannon Rapid Fire does to influence the Procs Per Minute rate.

    AND ... as if that wasn't enough ... I don't know if anyone's noticed (because no one even looks twice at Protonic weapons anymore, since everyone knows they're "trash" right?) but the damage delivered by the Protonic proc is the same regardless of weapon type. This means that Cannons and Beams both apply the exact same amount of damage via the Protonic proc, but because of the slower salvo speed of Beams, this winds up being a comparable net LOSS for Beams with Turrets coming out ahead (again!).

    My Protonic Turrets do 279.6 Proton damage to non-Voth (or is it 228.8? please, can some Dev clean up these tooltips?). If I was using Protonic Beams, they'd do the exact same Proton damage per proc. Look ...
    279.6 / 3 sec = +93.2 DPS over 3 seconds
    279.6 / 5 sec = +55.9 DPS over 5 seconds
    So in that respect, I'm getting more of a DPS boost out of the Protonic proc on Cannons than I would be getting on Beams. The absolute damage numbers are exactly the same, but the Beams fire less often than the Cannons do.

    Bottom line here is that adding Critical Hit using Cannons amps up the Protonic proc on Cannons more than it does on Beams, yielding increasing returns due to the faster salvo times of Cannons over Beams.

    And that's before making use of all of this on a Science Ultimate build where you've got 50% Critical Hit for 30 seconds. How many salvos can you fire in 30 seconds? 10 for Cannons or 6 for Beams ... and if you're using Cannon: Rapid Fire in there, you might even get up to 11+ salvos for Cannons, versus (still) only 6 for Beams, meaning even more "dice chucking" for Cannons to leverage the Protonic damage proc.

    1-(0.875^11) = 77.0% chance to proc a Protonic damage in 11 salvos over 30 seconds using Cannons @ 50% Critical Hit
    1-(0.875^10) = 73.7% chance to proc a Protonic damage in 10 salvos over 30 seconds using Cannons @ 50% Critical Hit
    1-(0.875^6) = 55.1% chance to proc a Protonic damage in 6 salvos over 30 seconds using Beams @ 50% Critical Hit

    Something to think about ...
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    kostamojenxkostamojenx Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    Have you tested this in any of the "Gold standard" missions like ISA or a solo run of Starbase 24? How about PVP?

    Have you tested this with Probability Manipulation?

    I like the idea of the build with the DrainX polaron turrets, and actually looking at it trying Probability Manipulation with the Protonic Turrets might significantly increase the proc.

    But overall looking at your build, I can see you don't have a lot of experience... You don't have to slot the Nimbus Distress Call in your device slots to use it (it can just be in your regular inventory) and you don't have any other crafted batteries like the Exotic damage battery or Energy weapon battery (those would help a lot with this build). I also think using 4x Embassy Plasma consoles instead of the restorative consoles would dramatically boost this build especially with the proc rate of the turrets.
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    kostamojenxkostamojenx Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    FYI I'm going to test some of your ideas, I just haven't decided on which ship to try it with yet... LOL
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    kostamojenxkostamojenx Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    Initial testing indicates a few things:

    The protonic proc, even with 50% crit chance with Probability Manipulation, procs FAR too rarely to be effective (your math is incorrect, or the game math is incorrect, either way the proc rare is low) and the damage per "burn" is only 500-1000 (even with attempts to boost it via protonic damage boosts and exotic damage). Its not worth perusing IMO

    Turrets are still pretty low damage overall, it may be useful to run forward facing 180 degree canons up front to boost damage. Dual canons would be even better with keeping a forward facing arc.

    I also notice you havent' done much to reduce cooldowns, like running damage control engineers or krenim boffs or All Hands on deck... Might want to look into that.


    Overall, I think several nerfs and other changes to the game have effected the possibilities of running a drain turret build with Polaron weapons, enough so that its fallen far behind the other more effective options currently. I was hoping to see more use out of it, I won't be perusing it further.
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    adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    For the most part I agree that the Dyson ship isn't an ideal platform for a drain build, although as you noted, the proton damage is the same regardless of what weapon type you use and with turrets being the lowest damage weapons anyway, it seems to me that boosting proton damage is likely to benefit you more than boosting the low amount of damage hitting shields, besides, with the whole thing being proc based rather than damage based, I would suggest you benefit more from an overall damage boosting approach.

    Also, the main benefit of the Dyson ship is it's console set which have some very powerful abilities (such as the chain attack) which are all proton based.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Have you tested this in any of the "Gold standard" missions like ISA or a solo run of Starbase 24? How about PVP?

    No on the standardized benchmarking of ISA or Starbase 24, which are more about DPS checking, which this build doesn't play to (specifically). I have, however, seen good success with it in Na'Kul Red Alerts and Delta Patrols (for whatever that's worth).

    As far as PvP goes, a friend of mine in my Fleet wanted a demonstration, so we did a 1v1 PvP friendly match. He had me completely outclassed with a Battlecruiser kitted out with Mk XIV Epic everything, so I was already -2 Mks and -2 Rarities behind him in the competition. But once we engaged, I was putting too much pressure on him and he wasn't getting enough pressure on me ... to the point where he started needing to pull out all the stops a maximally work his build just to maintain parity with me. He was dropping consumables and all kinds of stuff just trying to keep up, while I just kept flying lazily in circles around him, only using my healing skills. Eventually, he got me, because I wasn't making use of everything I could, but I was holding my own against him for a good long time.

    I did it that way the first time so he'd be able to appreciate what the weapons alone were doing and get a feel for the effects. Then in the second round, I started using my offensive skills too, and just pressured him to destruction, even as he (once again) had to pull out all the stops just to try and keep up with what I was doing to him. I wasn't using any of my devices, however, or even really my Captain skills, just my Bridge Officers. They key, of course, was maintaining fire on his ship to just keep the damage flowing (and the drain going). He tried getting on my tail, and that proved to be a mistake (Eject Warp Plasma).

    At this point, I've only had the build for almost 2 weeks and haven't had gobs of time to play. But what I have done with it has been remarkably successful ... so much so I felt like I needed to share, hence this thread.
    Have you tested this with Probability Manipulation?

    Nope ... merely theorized.
    I like the idea of the build with the DrainX polaron turrets, and actually looking at it trying Probability Manipulation with the Protonic Turrets might significantly increase the proc.

    Again, the whole purpose isn't to try and leverage the Proton burn into being your primary source of damage throughput. That's a fool's errand. That's why I look at the Proton burn as being more of a "bonus" than the explicit "purpose" of using those weapons.
    But overall looking at your build, I can see you don't have a lot of experience... You don't have to slot the Nimbus Distress Call in your device slots to use it (it can just be in your regular inventory) and you don't have any other crafted batteries like the Exotic damage battery or Energy weapon battery (those would help a lot with this build). I also think using 4x Embassy Plasma consoles instead of the restorative consoles would dramatically boost this build especially with the proc rate of the turrets.

    Again, I'm not Space Rich and don't have an inventory overflowing with options. I basically never use the Distress Call anyway, I just have it parked there for lack of anything better to do (although I suppose there's always Deuterium Surplus). But I'm not chasing DPS meters with this build, especially since the main focus of it (drain power) doesn't parse at all to begin with.

    I considered the Embassy Plasma consoles, and that would increase DPS, but do so at the expense of Drain Expertise ... and the build I'm working with is first and foremost a Drain Cruiser. All of that Drain Expertise is being used for the Polaron drain proc, the Neutronic drain on hit, the Quantum Phase shield drain, the Tyken's Rift drain and the Invasive Control Programming Trait (pushing it out to 12.1 seconds of shutdown from Gravity Wells) ... not to mention the Plasmonic Leech Console. That's not "nothing" to be giving up there, which is why I went to the Research Lab instead of the Embassy for my Science Consoles. My reasoning falls into the notion that if I completely drain power out of my target, their shields shut down (for lack of power) and I'm then hitting bare hull rather than beating on shields. I actually DO less Damage to the target, but I don't need to do AS MUCH Damage to the target to destroy them.

    So it's a tradeoff. I chose which tradeoff I prefer, since I wanted to see how far I could go in this direction. The [DrainX]x2 Consoles affect very nearly everything my build does, while the Embassy Consoles would only affect what the Turrets do. For me, this wasn't a hard choice.
    Initial testing indicates a few things:

    The protonic proc, even with 50% crit chance with Probability Manipulation, procs FAR too rarely to be effective (your math is incorrect, or the game math is incorrect, either way the proc rare is low) and the damage per "burn" is only 500-1000 (even with attempts to boost it via protonic damage boosts and exotic damage). Its not worth perusing IMO

    That was my assumption upon eyeballing the situation (from a distance). Designing a build in which Proton burn forms a major source of DPS (let alone a majority) feels like a fool's errand. However, it might be possible to design a build in which Proton burn offers a larger contribution to DPS production than Plasma burn from Plasma weapons, which have a fixed 2.5% chance to proc. Depending on the rest of the build (and Cryptic's math working in a predictable fashion) there ought to be an inflection point at which Proton burn matches Plasma burn damage production from the same weapon types. Exactly where that inflection point will be, however, will be something of a moving target, thanks to Accuracy Overflow and the fact that Protonic Polaron weapons drain power.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    Turrets are still pretty low damage overall, it may be useful to run forward facing 180 degree canons up front to boost damage. Dual canons would be even better with keeping a forward facing arc.

    They're low per hit, but they're always hitting, making them good pressure weapons when massing fire on target(s).
    I also notice you havent' done much to reduce cooldowns, like running damage control engineers or krenim boffs or All Hands on deck... Might want to look into that.

    Still not Space Rich ... and our Fleet only got our Research Lab up to 2.5 this week. We're working on finishing out the other Tier 3 still.
    Overall, I think several nerfs and other changes to the game have effected the possibilities of running a drain turret build with Polaron weapons, enough so that its fallen far behind the other more effective options currently. I was hoping to see more use out of it, I won't be perusing it further.

    Warning #2: This build is so far "off-meta" right now that a lot of the Conventional Wisdom about how it "ought to" be working (ie. poorly) simply breaks down and fails to accurately predict actual in game performance.
    adamkafei wrote: »
    For the most part I agree that the Dyson ship isn't an ideal platform for a drain build, although as you noted, the proton damage is the same regardless of what weapon type you use and with turrets being the lowest damage weapons anyway, it seems to me that boosting proton damage is likely to benefit you more than boosting the low amount of damage hitting shields, besides, with the whole thing being proc based rather than damage based, I would suggest you benefit more from an overall damage boosting approach.

    The thing that worries me about that approach is that Proton burn is so ... intermittent. What you give up in order to boost it is reliable damage for rarely happening damage. This, to me, does not feel like a "winning" tradeoff.
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Also, the main benefit of the Dyson ship is it's console set which have some very powerful abilities (such as the chain attack) which are all proton based.

    The only Dyson ships I've got are the Event Freebies. Never bought the Dyson Ship Pack, so I don't have the consoles to play with. However, going that route you're once again going to have to decide what you're going to sacrifice in order to slot all of those Universal Consoles. Again, that feels like you're losing more than you're gaining in the tradeoff (although Your Mileage May Vary), so that's very much a judgement call for what you want to do.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    I just want to take the chance to reiterate that, once again, I'm not using the Protonic Turrets to leverage the Proton burn as my "main" source of damage production. Instead, I look at the Proton burn as being a "cherry on top" to the build, rather than the entire cake. The REAL reason I'm using them is because Proton burn is "bonus damage" as opposed to being "main damage" which the alternatives don't offer. Remember, the choices which drain power(!) are:

    Normal Polarons (offers drain proc)
    Crafted Polarons (offers drain proc and [Rapid] as an option)
    Protonic Polarons (offers drain proc and Proton burn damage)
    Phased Polarons (offers drain proc and Phaser proc)
    Polarized Disruptors (offers drain proc and Disruptor proc)

    [Rapid] just hastens a single salvo by 0.8 seconds. Blink and you'll miss it. It's really hard to "feel" the difference this makes in actual gameplay. I can "hear" it when it happens, because of the tempo change of the bolts firing, but it doesn't last long enough to really register.

    Protonic burn is just "bonus" damage, straight up. It's not going to make a tremendous difference, but falls into the "every little bit helps" category, and the weapons are cheap and you get to pick your mods on them (in my case, [Acc]x2). With my build, every Proton burn proc is roughly comparable to delivering an extra Turret hit, so relatively speaking (rather than in absolute terms) the gain is relatively large and therefore helpful, as opposed to underwhelming and negligible.

    Phased Polarons add a Phaser proc, which increases the opportunities for subsystem shutdowns (slightly). This means less damage being wasted on shields (potentially) and more damage going to hull (averaged over time). So rather than doing "more" damage, this weapon type "shifts" where the damage produced goes (on average, less shields, more hull). Weapon system shutdowns also aid survivability by reducing enemy damage production. Aux system shutdowns will disable Science Skills, particularly those already in progress, including Tractor Beam (Repulsors), Tachyon Beams and a number of others. Engine system shutdowns turn into Accuracy Overflow opportunities for more [CrtH] and [CrtD] production. Shield shutdowns require no further explanation. ;)

    Polarized Disruptors are actually Disruptors with a drain proc added to them, so they do Resistance debuffing. This means that once they proc the Disruptor debuff, they'll do a little bit more damage with every hit for a while. The faster salvo speed of Turrets ought to mean that this Disruptor debuff ought to come up more often than it would with Beams. This option ought to offer the highest potential DPS throughput, all other considerations being equal.

    As you can see, if you're going for the Polaron drain proc, there really isn't a whole lot of options. Only Protonic Polarons offer a chance for extra (bonus) damage ... while other options modify what your damage production is "doing" to the target.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    The protonic proc, even with 50% crit chance with Probability Manipulation, procs FAR too rarely to be effective (your math is incorrect, or the game math is incorrect, either way the proc rare is low) and the damage per "burn" is only 500-1000 (even with attempts to boost it via protonic damage boosts and exotic damage). Its not worth perusing IMO

    You know what, something just occurred to me.

    What you're seeing is probably a result of some legacy coding regarding Protonic Polarons. I'm thinking they were never designed to "hook in" (as @borticuscryptic would say) to Probability Manipulation. And since "nobody uses them" and they're effectively Abandonware ... nobody's tested the proposition yet and noticed the fault.

    In other words, even though your Critical Hit chance gets lifted to 50% for the duration, I'll bet the Proton burn proc isn't getting the message and is still looking at your "native" ... unmodified by Probability Manipulation ... Critical Hit chance. Why? Because that's how the system worked at the time that Protonic weapons were designed. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something akin to a "programming hack" put into place to get the Protonic weapons to proc the way they do that isn't synergizing with Probability Manipulation now.
    There are no experimental failures. There's only more data.
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    kostamojenxkostamojenx Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    No on the standardized benchmarking of ISA or Starbase 24, which are more about DPS checking, which this build doesn't play to (specifically).
    Starbase 24 is more so about testing defense and crowd control than about pure DPS. Its hard to find better content that throws 50+ ships at you at once. Its an excellent way to fine tune builds for worst-case universal scenarios in the game.
    I considered the Embassy Plasma consoles, and that would increase DPS, but do so at the expense of Drain Expertise ...
    You do know the Plasma consoles come with [DrainX] right? I just bought 2 to test this build last night (I also plan to use them elsewhere, but ya, just last night)
    I just want to take the chance to reiterate that, once again, I'm not using the Protonic Turrets to leverage the Proton burn as my "main" source of damage production. Instead, I look at the Proton burn as being a "cherry on top" to the build, rather than the entire cake. The REAL reason I'm using them is because Proton burn is "bonus damage" as opposed to being "main damage" which the alternatives don't offer. Remember, the choices which drain power(!) are:

    Normal Polarons (offers drain proc)
    Crafted Polarons (offers drain proc and [Rapid] as an option)
    Protonic Polarons (offers drain proc and Proton burn damage)
    Phased Polarons (offers drain proc and Phaser proc)
    Polarized Disruptors (offers drain proc and Disruptor proc)
    I have all of these, and the best option for you is probably a normal Polaron with DMGx3 or DMGx2 PEN or DMGx2 CrtD. The other variants sacrifice a superior modifier for an alternate one that isn't nearly as effective.
    You know what, something just occurred to me.

    What you're seeing is probably a result of some legacy coding regarding Protonic Polarons. I'm thinking they were never designed to "hook in" (as @borticuscryptic would say) to Probability Manipulation. And since "nobody uses them" and they're effectively Abandonware ... nobody's tested the proposition yet and noticed the fault.

    In other words, even though your Critical Hit chance gets lifted to 50% for the duration, I'll bet the Proton burn proc isn't getting the message and is still looking at your "native" ... unmodified by Probability Manipulation ... Critical Hit chance. Why? Because that's how the system worked at the time that Protonic weapons were designed. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something akin to a "programming hack" put into place to get the Protonic weapons to proc the way they do that isn't synergizing with Probability Manipulation now.
    This is probably the case. I think the Protonic proc is broken. I remember at one point when it was first released it was quite OP and was quickly nerfed.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    You do know the Plasma consoles come with [DrainX] right?
    I'm quite well aware. The problem is that the Embassy Consoles can do [DrainX] while the Research Lab Consoles can do [DrainX]x2.

    The x1 vs x2 difference was the deciding factor in where I wanted to go with my build. That's because I'm using Drain as my primary "weapon" and purpose for the build, with Damage being a secondary consideration and Buff Stripping as the third consideration. Switching to Embassy Consoles would reorganize those priorities.
    the best option for you is probably a normal Polaron with DMGx3 or DMGx2 PEN or DMGx2 CrtD. The other variants sacrifice a superior modifier for an alternate one that isn't nearly as effective.
    Still quite happy with my [Acc]x2 Protonic Turrets.
    I think the Protonic proc is broken. I remember at one point when it was first released it was quite OP and was quickly nerfed.
    This is my shocked face.

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    neomodiousneomodious Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    I might try this on a Kar'Fi. Drops a weapon slot, but has hangers for pets with torps.
    Or the vet destroyers to add some command seating for CF

    Also wishing there were dominion polaron turrets for this...​​
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    neomodious wrote: »
    I might try this on a Kar'Fi. Drops a weapon slot, but has hangers for pets with torps.
    Or the vet destroyers to add some command seating for CF

    Also wishing there were dominion polaron turrets for this...​​

    Thinking of trying this with a Vo'Quv for much the same reason. Heh.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    mneme0mneme0 Member Posts: 498 Arc User
    Trying this on a Mirror Guardian cruiser. Got nearly everything (using Terran Def/WC and Jem'Hadar Eng/Shield until I finish the Solonae set and decide on a warp core) but have to decide whether:

    TT I
    THY I - CSV I - TSIII

    should be replaced by:
    TS I
    THY I - CRF I - CSV II.

    I also have the Jem'Hadar bugship trait that increases the duration of CRF.

    Do not have the buff stripper doffs (that sounds bad); how critical are they? Right now, instead I have aftershock Tyken's, -cooldown emergency powers, and -cooldown cannon special attacks, and the three -cooldown torpedoes.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    Actually, I was looking through the hangar bay options for something that would use Polarons (because you just can't get enough Polaron procs when building a Drain Boat!) and, sure enough ... Elite Jem'Hadar Fighters. Might be worth considering for a hangar oriented ship that relies on a "pile o' Turrets" as its main armament like I'm doing to maximize drain/leech potential.
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    greywalker#7639 greywalker Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    My question is can you make a turret boat without drain and still be effective (with 11.5), I want to explore all my options before I start down either path. I don't need to be top damage....but I sure don't want to be the lowest either!
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    nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    My question is can you make a turret boat without drain and still be effective (with 11.5), I want to explore all my options before I start down either path. I don't need to be top damage....but I sure don't want to be the lowest either!

    depends on what your trying to do just playing though story modes and patrols by yourself, should be fine as just about anything. I'ld avoid taking it into any queues in less it turns out pretty good. though I have a vague memory of people trying to make apu cruisers turret boats, I like at least one turned out alright.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
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    tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    My question is can you make a turret boat without drain and still be effective (with 11.5), I want to explore all my options before I start down either path. I don't need to be top damage....but I sure don't want to be the lowest either!

    Better than it used to be, but for being concerned with damage ouptut, I'd still go with single cannons fore and then stuff as many of the Embassy Plasma Explosion Mk XIV consoles as you can fit in your Science consoles (as the higher pulse rate for cannons means more procs for these).

    I've got a T6 D'Deridex fitted with Disruptor single cannons and turrets and it does decently well. Though, this is of course on a Romulan, which means nice critical hits and damage by leveraging BOff traits that is harder to match on a non-Rom.
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    snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Many thanks for this. I went ahead and tried a budget version of your budget build on my Vo'Quv. I brought my Nausicaan out of mothballs for the first time in ages. It's a totally different style of flying for me, but it's fun. The primary focus of what I'm doing is the drain. With a secondary focus on finally having a character that uses pets so I took hangar boosts in my skill build. And I'm goofing around with high hull and regen instead of shield stuff as a tertiary aspect of the build. So far, it's been really different.

    Heck this even gave me a backstory. I never could really wrap my brain around why a Nausicaan pirate would be an admiral in the fleet, and so I tended to keep him in raiders or raptors with small crews as he was you know, a pirate. Now with the Raider pets, he's just the head pirate in charge of 4 pirate ships. The carrier is homebase. Hah.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    mneme0 wrote: »
    Trying this on a Mirror Guardian cruiser. Got nearly everything (using Terran Def/WC and Jem'Hadar Eng/Shield until I finish the Solonae set and decide on a warp core) but have to decide whether:

    TT I
    THY I - CSV I - TSIII

    should be replaced by:
    TS I
    THY I - CRF I - CSV II.

    I'd argue that a deciding point here would be whether or not you're planning on using Deft Cannoneer as a Personal Space Trait. If you are, go for the latter. I find that I'm rarely using my Tactical Team in PvE for anything other than as a weapons booster. I really am not using it for shield distribution, since I just hit Balance Shields a lot (I have it bound to my S key in space) and let that do the balancing for me. Mainly that's because my shields are thin (8.6k) but have high regeneration (0.9 to 1.2k per 6 seconds) compared to my hull (90k), so the Balance Shields distribution spreads the damage around so that ALL of my shields can be regenerating at the same time, which then works to my advantage. And with all the power leeching going on, my Shield Power is rapidly pushed up towards 125/50, so the shields are doing about as well as can be expected.
    mneme0 wrote: »
    Do not have the buff stripper doffs (that sounds bad); how critical are they?

    This one's a hard one to answer. I wouldn't call them "critical" to my build so much as a "curious feature" of it. They do however play merry havoc with a lot of the more typical PvE problems you might see ... such as shutting down BFAW or Tractor Beams or Tachyon Beams (Borg especially!) and so on prematurely, which can have tide of battle turning effects. I haven't taken my build into the Badlands yet, but I fully expect to play merry havoc with the TBR Nebulas that keep spawning to push ships away from objectives. It's less of a nifty thing to have with trash mobs, since those are easy to destroy anyway ... but I haven't had an opportunity to bring it to bear against seriously strong boss types of ships, whether they be Borg or Voth or Undine or whatever. The buff stripping however does bring an unusual advantage to bear against "problem foes" that would otherwise be more difficult to deal with.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    My question is can you make a turret boat without drain and still be effective (with 11.5), I want to explore all my options before I start down either path. I don't need to be top damage....but I sure don't want to be the lowest either!
    tom61sto wrote: »
    Better than it used to be, but for being concerned with damage ouptut, I'd still go with single cannons fore and then stuff as many of the Embassy Plasma Explosion Mk XIV consoles as you can fit in your Science consoles (as the higher pulse rate for cannons means more procs for these).

    I've got a T6 D'Deridex fitted with Disruptor single cannons and turrets and it does decently well. Though, this is of course on a Romulan, which means nice critical hits and damage by leveraging BOff traits that is harder to match on a non-Rom.

    Yeah, if you're wanting to dispense with the [DrainX] factor from my build and go in a different direction, you're probably going to want to go with either Phaser procs, Disruptor procs or Plasma procs ... assuming you're sticking with the "chuck lots of dice" method of building your ship that I'm advocating here. Tetryon procs are advantaged by [DrainX] again, but Polarons completely blow Tetryons out of the water by comparison when it comes to [DrainX], so that's a no go.

    Phaser procs would be for a subsystem shutdown build. Personally, I feel that this would be inferior to a Polaron build simply because Phaser procs shut down a single subsystem at a time, with a lockout on further shutdowns, while Polarons drain ALL subsystems simultaneously (and can "turn the lights off" with sufficient drain stacking).

    Disruptor procs weaken the target by debuffing All Resistances, but they don't do anything to "cripple" the target aside from that.

    Plasma procs inflict plasma fires that do additional DoT damage. These ought to be competitive with Proton burn in their own right.

    If you're going for a Pressure DPS variant using Turrets, you're probably going to want to go with Romulan Plasma weapons from the Romulan reputation, since they combine Disruptor and Plasma procs. At that point, you might as well go for the Romulan Singularity Harness and just fill out your remaining weapon slots with Turrets. Put Plasma Energy Damage consoles into your Tactical slots and Fleet Embassy consoles into your Science slots and make a BURN BABY BURN build focused on creating as many plasma damage procs and debuff procs as quickly as possible.

    Or at least, that's what I would do if chasing DPS instead of Drain (as a back door to delivering crippling firepower).
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    Many thanks for this. I went ahead and tried a budget version of your budget build on my Vo'Quv. I brought my Nausicaan out of mothballs for the first time in ages. It's a totally different style of flying for me, but it's fun. The primary focus of what I'm doing is the drain. With a secondary focus on finally having a character that uses pets so I took hangar boosts in my skill build. And I'm goofing around with high hull and regen instead of shield stuff as a tertiary aspect of the build. So far, it's been really different.

    Heck this even gave me a backstory. I never could really wrap my brain around why a Nausicaan pirate would be an admiral in the fleet, and so I tended to keep him in raiders or raptors with small crews as he was you know, a pirate. Now with the Raider pets, he's just the head pirate in charge of 4 pirate ships. The carrier is homebase. Hah.

    My pleasure. I was more interested in paving the way towards playing the game a different way, but just as "successfully" as the more traditional methods available. If that's meant bringing new life to old warhorses ... I would consider my investment of time in this thread well repaid.

    And yes, it is a completely different "style" of flying to be playing a Turret ship than a Beam ship. It's quite ... liberating ... to not be "stuck" broadsiding all the time, and instead be able to Fly Freely and think more in terms of positioning relative to the rest of the battle, and not just towards the one target you're shooting at.

    Glad to know that you're enjoying the change of pace and that it has brought new joy to your playing of STO. We need more warriors on Redside ... ^_~
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    While I was having lunch with a (real life) friend of mine and updating them about the contents of this thread, the subject of the "DPS variant" of this build came up and I was explaining the direction toward the "BURN BABY BURN" swing with Fleet Embassy Science Consoles where you're going for Plasma procs instead of Drain ... and I had an inspiration I hadn't thought of last night.

    Withering Radiation.

    The key point of Withering debuffs is that they last for 60 seconds, and the deeper the stacks, the more damage dealt with each repeat proc. Turrets "proc early/proc often" ... so they would seem to be a natural fit for a Withering Turret Barrage style of DPS build that relies less on Drain and more on Radiation for throughput. Cannons will deliver 20 chances to proc per minute, while Beams only offer 12 chances to proc per minute, so there would seem to be a serious opportunity for synergy here.

    And as soon as you start thinking Withering Turrets, the very next thought is Counter-Command Set Bonuses ... which might be worthy of its own followup post in a different thread, because that would be a DPS oriented build instead of Drain oriented build. But a lot of the "chuck lots of dice" lessons I've found in this thread would still apply ...
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    tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,653 Arc User
    While I was having lunch with a (real life) friend of mine and updating them about the contents of this thread, the subject of the "DPS variant" of this build came up and I was explaining the direction toward the "BURN BABY BURN" swing with Fleet Embassy Science Consoles where you're going for Plasma procs instead of Drain ... and I had an inspiration I hadn't thought of last night.

    Withering Radiation.

    The key point of Withering debuffs is that they last for 60 seconds, and the deeper the stacks, the more damage dealt with each repeat proc. Turrets "proc early/proc often" ... so they would seem to be a natural fit for a Withering Turret Barrage style of DPS build that relies less on Drain and more on Radiation for throughput. Cannons will deliver 20 chances to proc per minute, while Beams only offer 12 chances to proc per minute, so there would seem to be a serious opportunity for synergy here.

    And as soon as you start thinking Withering Turrets, the very next thought is Counter-Command Set Bonuses ... which might be worthy of its own followup post in a different thread, because that would be a DPS oriented build instead of Drain oriented build. But a lot of the "chuck lots of dice" lessons I've found in this thread would still apply ...

    I'm pretty sure the Withering Disruptor proc is per-cycle, not per-pulse, so little increase there. The exception being the set-piece weapons (either a DHC or Beam Array), which increase in damage as the enemy's hull decreases.

    I've got a Withering Disruptor Beam Array build on TSABC, and with the 2-piece secondary set for Counter-Command (heavy Dis turret and Tac console, which is bit of an odd choice, admittedly) which it does very nicely even though I have limited Tac abilities since I set the Uni. Comm. BOff to Sci. It seems that the normal proc of Withering Disruptors is enhanced by Sensor Analysis, and that it compounds the Rep beam array nicely.
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    autumnturningautumnturning Member Posts: 743 Arc User
    Cannons fire once per 3 seconds. That's 20 salvos per minute. No matter how you slice it, that's 20 opportunities to proc per minute for Cannons as opposed to 12 opportunities to proc per minute for Beams with their 5 second salvos. I consider 20 to be bigger than 12 in my math (although, again, Your Mileage May Vary).
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