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Defensive skills for shield/armor penetration
samt1996
Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
I decided this needed it's own thread since the comments on it although good were in the wrong place.
Basically the idea is to have a skill(s) that reduces the amount of incoming shield and armor penetration. I like this idea but it could be very powerful if not careful. Anyways a skill that granted 10% resistance to penetration per point would be very nice for defensive players, it could also apply to shield bleedthrough to give extra incentive for PVE use.
The question is what to combine to fit this skill in? Or perhaps fit two skills in one for armor and one for shields. One idea is to combine the regeneration and healing skills into one. This is ok with me but I feel it could make it way too easy to stay alive or be nerfed so much the skills would be useless. I think a better idea would be to dump shield mastery because let's be honest it's not that great in its current form and instead put in the following:
Each point spent grants 15% resistance to shield penetration for the first two skill boxes and the third box adds a special effect where every twenty seconds all resisted shield/armor penetration is converted into shield/hull healing for x seconds.
On the engineering side they could combine two skills (don't know which) and have an added skill that resists 15% of armor penetration for the first two boxes and for the third box every twenty seconds all resisted shield/armor penetration is reflected back to your attackers for x seconds.
In this way I've recycled the shield mastery special effects into a more useful form while still fitting In the new skills. Also, by making the special effects for both complement each other it incentivizes using both skills together.
What do you think borty?
Basically the idea is to have a skill(s) that reduces the amount of incoming shield and armor penetration. I like this idea but it could be very powerful if not careful. Anyways a skill that granted 10% resistance to penetration per point would be very nice for defensive players, it could also apply to shield bleedthrough to give extra incentive for PVE use.
The question is what to combine to fit this skill in? Or perhaps fit two skills in one for armor and one for shields. One idea is to combine the regeneration and healing skills into one. This is ok with me but I feel it could make it way too easy to stay alive or be nerfed so much the skills would be useless. I think a better idea would be to dump shield mastery because let's be honest it's not that great in its current form and instead put in the following:
Each point spent grants 15% resistance to shield penetration for the first two skill boxes and the third box adds a special effect where every twenty seconds all resisted shield/armor penetration is converted into shield/hull healing for x seconds.
On the engineering side they could combine two skills (don't know which) and have an added skill that resists 15% of armor penetration for the first two boxes and for the third box every twenty seconds all resisted shield/armor penetration is reflected back to your attackers for x seconds.
In this way I've recycled the shield mastery special effects into a more useful form while still fitting In the new skills. Also, by making the special effects for both complement each other it incentivizes using both skills together.
What do you think borty?
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Comments
Armor Pen is just a negative damage resistance. Invest in more Damage Resistance in order to defend against penetration.
Shield Pen is just a negative shield hardness. Invest in more Shield Hardness in order to defend against penetration.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
So I still think there could be a place for resistance mechanics unless penetration is changed to have diminishing returns which IMO would be the better move for longterm stability.
Well this is an interesting piece of info to say the least. So overcapping on shield hardness boosts like Nanoprobe Field Generator, Emergency Power to Shields III, the Elite Fleet Shield's Adaptive Shield Proc, etc will decrease the damage that goes through shields? I already have hit the theoretical shield hardness cap with my current setup, I'm wondering if I should start overcapping.
So what was I thinking when I was testing on tribble was right then glad to know. But that aside does the [Pen} on weapons have the same effect and would stack the same way as the skill Pen on the skill tree or will trigger separately?
Lastly I would like to know if the other shield skills stack with other shield skills already on the game because one particular new skill I find a bit concerning.
My question was not read during the live cast so I'm still wondering since I think the new skill tree has a real potential on builds and in a way may dismay DPS builds not because they can't min-max anymore but because of another... reason.
OK on the Armor Penetration.... but Shield Penetration doesn't sound right to me.
Wouldn't Shield Penetration damage be countered with more "HULL Capacity"?
Why would shield hardness even effect damage that is going straight to hull? Where does that "Shield Hardness" go in the calculations?
P.S. There is a battery called "Shield Resilience Boost" in R&D that adds to shield hardness. I think I saw this in Shield School.
And the weapons [PEN] modifiers "ignores 10 armor rating". I think it is "Armor Penetration".
I did not have time to research Shield Penetration gear further than that...I doubt I am using any of it, anyways.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
I agree, I'm not seeing how shield hardness affects things like Self-Modulating Fire, Intelligence Fleet, etc.
@Borticuscryptic
Can you help us understand this statement? I think I may be misunderstanding
Lets say you have a energy weapon fired against a ship with standard shields. call it 1000 damage "in potential" to make the math easy..
So under standard scenario... 10% bleed through.. No shield hardness, no armor.
900 Dammage to Shields
100 Dammage to Hull
Now lets say you have 50 % shield hardness..
450 Dammage to shields
100 Dammage to hull.
Now lets add the 5% shield pen from Enhanced Shield Penetration (Nukara rep tier 2) and 10% shield pen from new system.
and Aagain 1000 point, Same hit..No shield hardness, no armor.
750 Dammage to shields
250 Dammage to Hull.
Now lets add 50% shield hardness...
375 To shields.
250 To hull.
NOTE: The damage to HULL is NOT reduced by shield hardness. The penetration BYPASSES the hardness and applies directly to hull.
When the penetration values go way up (For example lets apply an addition 35% shield pen from energy weapon doff)
same hit 1000 , no hardness , no armor
450 damage To shields,
550 damage to hull
Then reduce it by 50 % shield hardness
225 damage to shields
550 damage to hull
From an initial perspective.. the damage becomes 77.5% effective .. with 55% shield pen and 50% hardness. Which at first glance makes it exactly as you state... shield pen and shield harness somewhat "cancle" however...
Take the perspective of the target who has to chose do I add shield harness or armor...
The difference between the 0 shield hardness hit.. and the 50% shield harness hit.. is only reduced by 225.. The total damage reduction becomes 22% .. This is taking the same incoming fire. but given that the reduced dammage is only to the shields and target is now going to die before the shields drop, hardness and shield capacity are no longer a concern.
This makes most of the science tree irrelevant for pvp. That is the reason we are suggesting that while reducing damage to shields is good, and reducing damage to hull is good... something to reduce the ammout that skips shields entirely would be useful to make shields relevant again.
Thank you, another person who understands.
Thank you for explaining it so well....I can see this will be a huge issue for my BOP's.
OOps....no I won't, none of the NPCs have shield penetration stuff, yet.
Hardness still helps me to keep some shields up while regen kicks in.
There is a convo in Reddit: Armor Penetration vs. Damage Resistance and Shield Penetration vs. Shield Hardness
(Grrrr...why is there no delete button for stupid comments I make like this one...I can only edit it)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Ever notice that the "big bosses" on almost every run now die very fast with their shields more or less full? This is the reason. So the "doesn't affect you" really just means everyone "benefits" from it by making the game easier.
Mobs not having any defense against this technique is actually skewing the game. Its just a "positive" that people enjoy. Jumping on a run with someone with high shield pen = dead boss without having to deal with those pesky shields that regenerate and make it a challenge.
And if you think the examples from the above threads math are extreme, this doesn't even count the +50% shield penetration from self modulating fire trait.
Stack that on top and you have shields taking 0 damage and everything to hull. Shields have become meaningless to PVP .. and in PVE it has rendered boss shields meaningless too.
100% shield pen means shields have 0 effect. They are not even part of the equation any more and 100% is obtainable, not even difficult to obtain.
Open with a beam overload in pvp and you now have a 95% chance of being over 100% shield pen with 1 traits and 3 doffs.
This is why all the "newbies" in join pvp once. get vaporized with their shields at full wondering wtf just happened, then never pvp again.
This is the main "break" in the balance of the game. You can full on ignore enemy and player shields. Now with over half of science about making shields meaningful, what use is most of the science tree. Doesn't matter if you have 100% shield hardness. 100% bypass means that hardness has 0 effect.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
I agree with you 100%. Shield penetration is a big problem I think.
(Although in the absence of that, we do have TempHP as a soft counter to Shield Penetration, I suppose, as an extra "layer" damage needs to pass through before getting to HullHP.)
A soft counter is exactly the what's needed to solve the problem. You spend a lot getting good shields. Upgrading them. Dumping 1/3rd of your spec into them .. making sure you have heals and buffs for them. Routing your extra weapon power into them with your gold engines. running 1/4th of your total power into them to make them harder and regenerate more. What do you get for it in pvp? zilch. Its totally bypassed. Something that reduces that pen to a more manageable level if you invest in it. Ie capable of reducing the bypass but not eliminating it.
As to late in the game.. it is this patch that is adding 10% more pen.. that you can get full time, just for a few spec points. This is 10% more than is already there in the live version. Making shields just that much more irrelevant.
*Editing to make more clear was in favor of what iusasset was saying*
Lister: Raise the defense shields...
Kryton: There are just two problems with that strategy sir. 1. We don't have any defense shields and 2. We don't have any defense shields. I realize that's the same problem twice but seeing as how it's such a big problem I thought it was worth mentioning again.
Thanks borticuscryptic! Appreciate the clarification.
Had an idea of how to fix it easier, and make it more understandable. ... What if you made shield hardness a direct counter.
Make hardness reduce bleed through, at a penalty, of say -25%.
That way you could say "and reduces bleed-through damage" in the shield harness tooltip.
So if you don't have 0 much shield harness, bleed-through is increased by 25%. If you cap shield harness then bleed-through is reduced by 50%. It wouldn't require much UI /skill change and would fix the problem.
If someone has 100% shield pen, and fires on someone with 100% hardness... 50% of damage still goes to shields.. and 50% goes to hull.. They still get a lot of benefit from the pen, but shields still remain useful, if properly buffed and powered.
Shield penetration however I'm still very dissatisfied with and I would like to see it reworked as soon as developer time permits. I still think a resist skill to replace a science skill would be a nice first step but shield hardness should have some effect also.
That actually is a pretty good idea. You still need to invest in things to reduce shield bypassing, but even if you do it doesnt negate it completely, but also reduces a shield bypassing build a bit to make a more even fight if necessary.
Because i do agree on one point, Shield bypassing has become completely out of control.
That's a very good idea. Maybe on a science ship or a tank build you could get up to 75% protection from shield penetration, just because on science ships, shields are most of their protection and on a lot of tank builds shields are the primary defense. I agree you'd have to heavily invest in shields to get these levels of shield penetration protection.
Wait, WHAT?! Wasn't this explained in a different thread that shield hardness reduces the damage against shields, and not a stat used to counter shieldPen?
To the OP, this is NOT something that is going against your idea. I like it, actually. I just want some consistency in our terms and what is/isn't being changed.
OK, so I saw this later down. Is it safe to assume that the correction is the explanation I wrote earlier?
PS. It's been a long week.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Thank you for rescinding the statement. It was blocking my understanding of all this.
+++++
To: ensignfreekill : Wow, that's an eye opener. 100% shield pen by players, I did not realize that was happening. And yes, that would make it a pretty bad day for PVP and queues if one can't get any (or enough) shots in.
Adding "reduced bleed through to hull" to the game sounds good. EXCEPT....let me think....reduced bleed through to hull would be messing with that 75% damage resistance cap, wouldn't it? Bring players up to 100% resistance, again?
Oh, I just thought of something else...isn't 100% resistance called "immunity"? And they are adding things that give immunity in some traits or specialization, I believe.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Agree immunities should not be added. Which is why we suggested basing it off the hardness (which is capped at 75) but at a 25% penalty so the max you can get is 50% reduction to bleed though. (not immunity)
Well, it would have to be done carefully. "Clicky" abilities that "add to" on activation may be difficult to keep from "stacking up" together, as the shield penetration has.
And if there is a damage resistance of 75% on the shield side as well as the Hull side....I don't see why "Bleedthrough Reduction" isn't a skill in the skill tree, too. Though, with the deadline looming...it may be too late for those types of changes.
And would it be some sort of Tactical maneuver learned by an officer with experienced in battle? Or Science because of an officer's experience with shields? And, how universal would this skill be used...would ALL characters benefit or only those who PvP?
I guess, that answers my own question....it wouldn't be in the skill tree because it wouldn't be universally needed.
(Though, it would be evil to put it in the skill tree and give it to the "Bosses", in spades, to TRIBBLE with those folks stacking shield penetration. :::giggles:::)
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Lol. That would be something. If they keep it out of the tree its likely the bosses would be affected because they have pretty decent shield hardness too.
Don't know if its planned to be fixed. Hope so. To me its the main issue in PVP right now, but I'm not sure that's how the powers that be interpret it. Not sure they even agree its an issue.
@borticuscryptic
Do you think this is a problem that might be worth addressing?
100% shieldPen happens. Plasma Explosions (formerly the Embassy Plasma DoT) is direct to hull damage. No shield hardness or anti-shield penetration will ever solve that...
Then, there's what I outlined in this post that can be done w/o energy weapons, 4 traits, and a lot of torps, timing, and luck. Still doesn't counter immunities.
The problem is the arms race; you're competitive until you have everything. Once you have everything, you're unkillable unless you make a mistake. With some of the changes/additions being introduced, even making a mistake won't be detrimental, as you will be covered by an automated process triggering an immunity.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Hmmmmm...are you implying there needs to be immunity that gives out 100% damage resistance to Hull, too???
I guess, the Devs could keep piling it on. And on...
But I didn't think people were having very much fun with that. LOL!
Anyhoo...the solution to prevent 100% shield penetration would probably be a cap on it, too. Not a penetration reduction ability.
But this is the forums, so we can dream about it.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin