You really got to wonder. Something has to be really wrong or really good about FaW that jokes got people defending it this hard. I can't think of a power that gets this kind of reaction.
INB4 FAW is fake damage, the numbers are padded, a portion of the damage is mitigated by passive regen and intelligent target prioritization will clear objectives and contribute to the success of the team at the cost of a personal score result that no one really cares about but you.
The concept of „fake DPS“ or damage dealt to critters which are healed afterwards (which every pvp opponent does as well by the way) is a concept which is not to the least limited to beam fire at will. All area attacks have them and on my cannon builds they are even more obviously put into my face. Single targeting abilities have them too because why should somebody stop firing then when:
- Leach fuels engines to get to the next targets faster?
- Terran Core is kept in alert mode for 130 gun power?
Everybody who parses his runs knows that this kind of DPS is a slim or even close to none existent part to his overall DPS archived. Of course that heavily depends on how good one gets at what he is doing but I can assure you that on my 90k+ runs (I do with beams as well as cannons) “fake DPS” makes up a few percent at most. That’s hardly anything to care about and where I would have to undertake great lengths to avoid. If I would do such a thing it would lower my performance massively.
And no, in PvE single targeting abilities are not better or bring a better benefit to the team because on 95% of the occasions you simply have to fight multiple opponents at the same time which you do with area attacks best.
The gospel of BFAW has some very interesting parallels with religious fanaticism, does it not?
I don’t think so. Players which do fine with whatever form of attack they use are at peace. They parse their performance to monitor results of their builds and gaming efforts or perhaps chose to enter competitions with other players in the STO league. That’s all. Fanaticism is something I only see in peeps which are unhappy with their performance and look for ways to devalue or discredit the achievements of peeps that do fine.
I would move it to Ten Forward like @taylor1701d suggested. The thread and the misconceptions about FAW are simply too interesting to read and help a bit to clarify why unbelievable low parses are recorded in pug runs at times.
Some peeps deal less DPS in space than I do on ground. They do so with or without BFAW by the way.
Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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INB4 FAW is fake damage, the numbers are padded, a portion of the damage is mitigated by passive regen and intelligent target prioritization will clear objectives and contribute to the success of the team at the cost of a personal score result that no one really cares about but you.
Everybody who parses his runs knows that this kind of DPS is a slim or even close to none existent part to his overall DPS archived. Of course that heavily depends on how good one gets at what he is doing but I can assure you that on my 90k+ runs (I do with beams as well as cannons) “fake DPS” makes up a few percent at most. That’s hardly anything to care about and where I would have to undertake great lengths to avoid. If I would do such a thing it would lower my performance massively.
Agreed that those who deal close to or over 100k DPS with FAW are probably doing more than just pressing spacebar. B:FAW on its own won't get you those high numbers so one might argue that there's more, be it skills or other elements of a build, involved.
That doesn't mean that there aren't some things wrong with FAW though. Overcapping has frequently been cited as one of the problems, and there's of course the issue with the fact that it requires little to no actual targeting.
Also, it's still the ability which is the easiest to use. Something that is available on every ship and so easy to use shouldn't be so powerful. I tried FAW once, and I didn't get much over 30k DPS, but I didn't seriously invest in my gear or build either, didn't get Leech, didn't do anything to get my power above 125, and my beams were only very rare mk 14's, one of them ultra rare. The only thing I did when I changed from beam overload + torp spread to FAW, was putting FAW on my tray.
Such a simple change, and yet very effective. That, and the fact that there's the two issues described above, which are actual features of FAW and thus cannot be ignored or dismissed, mean that I can only conclude that FAW is indeed overperforming.
If its a joke then put it in Ten Forward where it can be safely ignored.
If you want to have a serious discussion on the mechanics of FaW, then post in general. And lets discuss.
Like @gradii has done, explaining his issues with the skill in a matter of fact way.
I'm so sick of the hipster, I hate bfaw crowd.
In an age where Oden posts tremendous Kinetic build DPS, on par with anything FaW can muster, there's no reason for such threads existing.
If you want to have a laugh, fine, but go do it in Ten Forward.
I have no idea who Oden is, nor do I know about his build. But I do know that it's ridiculously simple to put FAW on a ship, get in range of the enemies and just press spacebar.
Yes, there are other powerful builds. But those are the entire builds that are powerful, and they're not centred around a single ability that's responsible for most of the DPS.
Take an average Sci build: it requires high aux power, particle generators (meaning less flexilibity for certain gear such as deflectors), high sci officer skills and you're going to need multiple copies of most abilities, as well as different abilities (unlike FAW, which can be put on practically every ship that's above T2). Add to that the fact that most sci vessels have fewer weapon slots and that torpedoes and sci skills will be more difficult to use while broadsiding, thus making targeting in a sci vessel more difficult, and I think I can safely conclude that FAW is ridiculously easy to use, and that it doesn't really require any sacrifices to be made.
It is the most simple solution to the bulk of the enemies, ranging from Borg to Herald spam (why do you think people have been calling for counter measures being used by them?). The Voth are probably one of the few exceptions, and even there the use of FAW is hardly punishing in that you could just add a torp spread to deal with the Aceton thingies for example.
All I wanted to convey is that its false to believe one could slap on 2 copies of FaW and go off and be successful in Elite queues. It just doesn't work like that. You've got other things to worry about in Elite. And the wrong selections of skills will make you a detriment to the team.
As far as Beam overcapping, yes that's an issue that I don't disagree with. Other weapon types don't get that benefit. And in regards to FaW multi-targeting everything, yeah that is also a bit much. *The AoE of FaW should at least respect the Arc of equipped beams. right ? I'll admit right now cannon users do get the short end of the stick. But is it really that much of a gimp ? I don't think so when I can hit 40k in a turret boat with no keybinds.
And If you've been around long enough you'll remember when almost NOBODY used FaW, it was Escorts online and Cannons were prolific. Barring PvP builds that were using Double BO. At that time "the Joke" was Cannons Online. So Cannons did have their time in the sun.
After LoR was released beams became "In Fashion" again. At that point (and up until DR) Beams really were "The Only Solution", and nothing could compete fairly with them. It was during this Era that all these BFaW Jokes originated from.
But Post DR, every weapon type has great potential for DPS. You got people doing incredible DPS with Kin/Exo builds. And even pure Torp builds.
Which is why I say this Joke is two years late.
The Meta is much different these days, there is good equity between weapon types now. Or at least ALOT better then there was.
With a few changes to cannons, I hope to see these anti FaW threads die out, and remain in the past where they belong.
The Skill tree revamp will be helping cannons with damage drop off. Its one step closer to putting these threads behind us.
All I wanted to convey is that its false to believe one could slap on 2 copies of FaW and go off and be successful in Elite queues.
It just doesn't work like that.
You've got other things to worry about in Elite.
And the wrong selections of skills will make you a detriment to the team.
As far as Beam overcapping, yes that's an issue that I don't disagree with. Other weapon types don't get that benefit.
And in regards to FaW multi-targeting everything, yeah that is also a bit much. *The AoE of FaW should at least respect the Arc of equipped beams. right ?
I'll admit right now cannon users do get the short end of the stick.
But is it really that much of a gimp ? I don't think so when I can hit 40k in a turret boat with no keybinds.
And If you've been around long enough you'll remember when almost NOBODY used FaW, it was Escorts online and Cannons were prolific. Barring PvP builds that were using Double BO.
At that time "the Joke" was Cannons Online. So Cannons did have their time in the sun.
After LoR was released beams became "In Fashion" again. At that point (and up until DR) Beams really were "The Only Solution", and nothing could compete fairly with them.
It was during this Era that all these BFaW Jokes originated from.
But Post DR, every weapon type has great potential for DPS. You got people doing incredible DPS with Kin/Exo builds. And even pure Torp builds.
Which is why I say this Joke is two years late.
The Meta is much different these days, there is good equity between weapon types now. Or at least ALOT better then there was.
With a few changes to cannons, I hope to see these anti FaW threads die out, and remain in the past where they belong.
The Skill tree revamp will be helping cannons with damage drop off. Its one step closer to putting these threads behind us.
I know, I remember the 'Escorts Online' thing well. It's a good thing that more weapon types and more different builds are viable now. But I have a feeling that these threads won't 'die out' until the more technical issues are taken care of. And I can understand that.
Oh and edit: I'm aware that 'FAW+ spacebar' on their own won't do much in Elite content. The 75k+ people who use FAW are certainly doing more than just that. It's the 20-40k DPS people who seem to think that their parse results are impressive when it's obviously done with one of the easiest to use abilities in the game. Just not impressed with FAW at such moments. I've also seen enough missions fail because people couldn't check their fire and blew a generator too early because theu ran off to the right side before the left side was even entirely cleared etc.
I think that's why people are taking issue with FAW in general: because there's too many people who are using it and substituting one ability for tactics. The highest DPS-FAW'ers know what they're doing. Most other FAW users, - those in the 20k-40k range who I don't necessarily consider 'good players' even though their parse results might be OK, - don't, they're just using it because they've seen it being used or because they're under the impression that it will bring them victory. Which is, sadly, true in most cases and everything below elite content.
You really got to wonder. Something has to be really wrong or really good about FaW that jokes got people defending it this hard. I can't think of a power that gets this kind of reaction.
You really got to wonder. Something has to be really wrong or really good about FaW that jokes got people defending it this hard. I can't think of a power that gets this kind of reaction.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Hehe now that I think about it... don't nerf FAW. Just remove the feature that allows players to bind multiple skills to 1 key. Make everyone required to activate skills manually one at a time instead of mashing a single key. That's how it should have been from the start anyway.
Also, make it so that EPtX can't be kept at 100% uptime. Make their duration substantially shorter than their GCD so that people will have to time these skills rather than spam them on CD. That would be a good equalizer IMO.
You really got to wonder. Something has to be really wrong or really good about FaW that jokes got people defending it this hard. I can't think of a power that gets this kind of reaction.
A2B.
You're right and A2B did not get so much nerfed as given countless replacements and even then A2B was a pretty worthless power, doffed A2B was OP.
You really got to wonder. Something has to be really wrong or really good about FaW that jokes got people defending it this hard. I can't think of a power that gets this kind of reaction.
If its a joke then put it in Ten Forward where it can be safely ignored.
If you want to have a serious discussion on the mechanics of FaW, then post in general. And lets discuss.
Like @gradii has done, explaining his issues with the skill in a matter of fact way.
I'm so sick of the hipster, I hate bfaw crowd.
In an age where Oden posts tremendous Kinetic build DPS, on par with anything FaW can muster, there's no reason for such threads existing.
If you want to have a laugh, fine, but go do it in Ten Forward.
I have no idea who Oden is, nor do I know about his build. But I do know that it's ridiculously simple to put FAW on a ship, get in range of the enemies and just press spacebar.
Hi. I am the "Oden (aka OdenKnight) that he mentioned. While he has exaggerated on what Kinetics can do w/ respect to FaW, he does have some valid points, especially concerning the, " 'I hate bfaw' crowd". With that said, I lean more towards your points, especially considering how easy it is to use FaW, as well as build around it.
Current FaW success build (typically the same for cannons as well):
1. Ship w/ 3+ Sci consoles. Fill those w/ Embassy Plasma explosion consoles. The more the better.
2. Ship w/ 4-5 Tac Consoles Locators of +Beam or +EnergyChoice.
3. Engineering slots get leech, EPS console, and (a) Uni of choice (BIC or other).
4. Set WPow to Max.
5. Get set gear that boosts Energy Weapons (Iconian currently).
6. Use crafted beams w/ [Pen] (which currently is NOT WAI in favor of the users and teammates, but beams (and by extension, FaW) takes greater advantage of the lingering benefit due to the nature of the issue).
7. Add Reputation Traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options.
8. Add StarShip traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options at various price ranges.
9. Recent addition is to use the Terran Munitions Disruptor, because of its mechanic (does more damage the lower the HP of the target).
I didn't even get into BOffs, DOffs, or macros/binds to make life easier.
Now, if the above isn't the formula for energy builds, PLEASE make corrections as you see fit. As it stands right now, I'm not spec'd into energy weapons, I had my power levels set to Balanced, I didn't use [Pen] weapons, didn't have the Iconian set, and using 3 plasma consoles, Pedal to the Metal (Starship), Nukara Offensive, Precision, EAP, & Advanced Targeting (Rep), I can throw down 40K-70K in a PuG flying bleh. In order to do the same w/ Sci-Torps (or torps alone), I have to fly much better, have my gear for the type of build and ship I am bringing into the match, the appropriate DOffs, the right BOff powers, and the decision to go more offensive or more defensive, because threat's a real issue currently w/ anything that isn't stacking -Threat. This doesn't even take into account the issues that negatively affect cannons and torps/mines, of which some aren't even being addressed in 11.5.
The point is, it's WAY easier to mess up in a FaW build and STILL do stupendous amounts of DPS. The same cannot be said for cannons & torps. With FaW, it's easier to build and to fly, and it's easier to take to the highest ends of DPS. This doesn't even factor in the multitude of traits and gear that benefit energy weapons. Combine that with things like overcapping, added damage from WPow, and the ease of use of FaW, plus map design, plus low hp target-rich environments, and it made FaW go from ho-hum back when it was "Escorts Online", to, "FaW FTW" that it is now.
I'm one that always has advocated for fixes first to other weapon types and abilities before doing a balance pass on anything. That stands to this day.
PS. The 4th nerf to Neutronic and the Nerf to Quantum Phase (both under TS) and the bugs for both under HY need to be fixed. Make no mistake, they are nerfs. If FaW got the same treatment, people would cry foul, ESPECIALLY those that use Embassy consoles.
I think that summarises things and how I've perceived the average PUGed mission well. Thank you
Btw, I knew who you are. I just didn't want to pay too much attention to one specific build, especially not when it's used as an excuse not to fix overperforming abilities such as FAW
Cause as you said, your builds may be effective, they also seem much harder to use. So that effectiveness is well deserved I guess. Something I'm not so sure about with regard to FAW.
The point is, it's WAY easier to mess up in a FaW build and STILL do stupendous amounts of DPS. The same cannot be said for cannons & torps.
Interesting statement there Oden.
Personally, now that I've been playing with FAW builds, I find them not easier, but rather different to what I am used to. Maybe because I started playing the game with torps and science rather than beams, I am not used to the best way to play with FAW.
From my limited experience thus far, FAW is more about keeping uptimes and buff sync with firing cycles. Torps and science on the other hand is more about timing and target prioritization. Because of that, I tend to forget to chain EPtX for 100% uptime (my stubbornness to avoid the use of keybinds doesn't help). Sometimes I also forget to use FAW when I am not faced with multiple targets because I am used to conserving cooldowns on TS and sci abilities. On the other hand, target acquisition is very easy on FAW boats and so is positioning.
Perhaps your experience flying cannon boats helps you bridge the gap between FAW and torps. Right now I am still learning myself.
If its a joke then put it in Ten Forward where it can be safely ignored.
If you want to have a serious discussion on the mechanics of FaW, then post in general. And lets discuss.
Like @gradii has done, explaining his issues with the skill in a matter of fact way.
I'm so sick of the hipster, I hate bfaw crowd.
In an age where Oden posts tremendous Kinetic build DPS, on par with anything FaW can muster, there's no reason for such threads existing.
If you want to have a laugh, fine, but go do it in Ten Forward.
I have no idea who Oden is, nor do I know about his build. But I do know that it's ridiculously simple to put FAW on a ship, get in range of the enemies and just press spacebar.
Hi. I am the "Oden (aka OdenKnight) that he mentioned. While he has exaggerated on what Kinetics can do w/ respect to FaW, he does have some valid points, especially concerning the, " 'I hate bfaw' crowd". With that said, I lean more towards your points, especially considering how easy it is to use FaW, as well as build around it.
Current FaW success build (typically the same for cannons as well):
1. Ship w/ 3+ Sci consoles. Fill those w/ Embassy Plasma explosion consoles. The more the better.
2. Ship w/ 4-5 Tac Consoles Locators of +Beam or +EnergyChoice.
3. Engineering slots get leech, EPS console, and (a) Uni of choice (BIC or other).
4. Set WPow to Max.
5. Get set gear that boosts Energy Weapons (Iconian currently).
6. Use crafted beams w/ [Pen] (which currently is NOT WAI in favor of the users and teammates, but beams (and by extension, FaW) takes greater advantage of the lingering benefit due to the nature of the issue).
7. Add Reputation Traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options.
8. Add StarShip traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options at various price ranges.
9. Recent addition is to use the Terran Munitions Disruptor, because of its mechanic (does more damage the lower the HP of the target).
I didn't even get into BOffs, DOffs, or macros/binds to make life easier.
Now, if the above isn't the formula for energy builds, PLEASE make corrections as you see fit. As it stands right now, I'm not spec'd into energy weapons, I had my power levels set to Balanced, I didn't use [Pen] weapons, didn't have the Iconian set, and using 3 plasma consoles, Pedal to the Metal (Starship), Nukara Offensive, Precision, EAP, & Advanced Targeting (Rep), I can throw down 40K-70K in a PuG flying bleh. In order to do the same w/ Sci-Torps (or torps alone), I have to fly much better, have my gear for the type of build and ship I am bringing into the match, the appropriate DOffs, the right BOff powers, and the decision to go more offensive or more defensive, because threat's a real issue currently w/ anything that isn't stacking -Threat. This doesn't even take into account the issues that negatively affect cannons and torps/mines, of which some aren't even being addressed in 11.5.
The point is, it's WAY easier to mess up in a FaW build and STILL do stupendous amounts of DPS. The same cannot be said for cannons & torps. With FaW, it's easier to build and to fly, and it's easier to take to the highest ends of DPS. This doesn't even factor in the multitude of traits and gear that benefit energy weapons. Combine that with things like overcapping, added damage from WPow, and the ease of use of FaW, plus map design, plus low hp target-rich environments, and it made FaW go from ho-hum back when it was "Escorts Online", to, "FaW FTW" that it is now.
I'm one that always has advocated for fixes first to other weapon types and abilities before doing a balance pass on anything. That stands to this day.
PS. The 4th nerf to Neutronic and the Nerf to Quantum Phase (both under TS) and the bugs for both under HY need to be fixed. Make no mistake, they are nerfs. If FaW got the same treatment, people would cry foul, ESPECIALLY those that use Embassy consoles.
I agree 100%!
I'm waiting until the new skill tree goes live to see how cannons compare. I have a feeling siege builds with CSV and TS (and maybe GW) will become a thing.
Also, I often hear the term "piloting" when talking about beam boats. Beam boats don't require piloting, they require positioning and timing. Cannon and torpedo boats require piloting, positioning and timing.
Hi. I am the "Oden (aka OdenKnight) that he mentioned. While he has exaggerated on what Kinetics can do w/ respect to FaW, he does have some valid points, especially concerning the, " 'I hate bfaw' crowd". With that said, I lean more towards your points, especially considering how easy it is to use FaW, as well as build around it.
Current FaW success build (typically the same for cannons as well):
1. Ship w/ 3+ Sci consoles. Fill those w/ Embassy Plasma explosion consoles. The more the better.
2. Ship w/ 4-5 Tac Consoles Locators of +Beam or +EnergyChoice.
3. Engineering slots get leech, EPS console, and (a) Uni of choice (BIC or other).
4. Set WPow to Max.
5. Get set gear that boosts Energy Weapons (Iconian currently).
6. Use crafted beams w/ [Pen] (which currently is NOT WAI in favor of the users and teammates, but beams (and by extension, FaW) takes greater advantage of the lingering benefit due to the nature of the issue).
7. Add Reputation Traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options.
8. Add StarShip traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options at various price ranges.
9. Recent addition is to use the Terran Munitions Disruptor, because of its mechanic (does more damage the lower the HP of the target).
I didn't even get into BOffs, DOffs, or macros/binds to make life easier.
Now, if the above isn't the formula for energy builds, PLEASE make corrections as you see fit. As it stands right now, I'm not spec'd into energy weapons, I had my power levels set to Balanced, I didn't use [Pen] weapons, didn't have the Iconian set, and using 3 plasma consoles, Pedal to the Metal (Starship), Nukara Offensive, Precision, EAP, & Advanced Targeting (Rep), I can throw down 40K-70K in a PuG flying bleh. In order to do the same w/ Sci-Torps (or torps alone), I have to fly much better, have my gear for the type of build and ship I am bringing into the match, the appropriate DOffs, the right BOff powers, and the decision to go more offensive or more defensive, because threat's a real issue currently w/ anything that isn't stacking -Threat. This doesn't even take into account the issues that negatively affect cannons and torps/mines, of which some aren't even being addressed in 11.5.
The point is, it's WAY easier to mess up in a FaW build and STILL do stupendous amounts of DPS. The same cannot be said for cannons & torps. With FaW, it's easier to build and to fly, and it's easier to take to the highest ends of DPS. This doesn't even factor in the multitude of traits and gear that benefit energy weapons. Combine that with things like overcapping, added damage from WPow, and the ease of use of FaW, plus map design, plus low hp target-rich environments, and it made FaW go from ho-hum back when it was "Escorts Online", to, "FaW FTW" that it is now.
I'm one that always has advocated for fixes first to other weapon types and abilities before doing a balance pass on anything. That stands to this day.
PS. The 4th nerf to Neutronic and the Nerf to Quantum Phase (both under TS) and the bugs for both under HY need to be fixed. Make no mistake, they are nerfs. If FaW got the same treatment, people would cry foul, ESPECIALLY those that use Embassy consoles.
I just wanted to quote this post and point out that in the midst of a long, somewhat heated discussion, this post here is actually a very good "guide" on ship building for the current state of the game that a returning player (myself) finds extremely valuable. Not to just build a FAW setup, but really to think about item choices and the build itself. (Because you give a lot of room for flexibility and how to still build something that doesn't have to use FAW).
So thanks for that.
Also, while a lot of that information may make it seem like that's an easier build to make and fly (and it probably is) keep in mind it's still a bit of work for someone still getting back into the groove of the game. So easy is still relative.
Using myself as the anecdote ... I stopped playing right before Delta Rising came out. I used to run an aux2batt build on a fleet Assault Cruiser. I was running phasers. I wasn't top of the charts, but I did decent.
I got tempted back to the game with a free ship. And then the ship sale got my wallet back into the game. But I'm now trying to figure out how to build my T6 Guardian better, and how to change the build as I don't think the aux2batt setup is the best way to build that ship. So that post right there opens my eyes to a lot of other possibilities.
You guys can get back to your discussion of BFAW. But thanks for adding a lot of missing context on the current state of the game for me.
Oh and let's keep in mind that at the height of Escorts Online, one of the primary reasons BFAW wasn't the force it is, was it didn't work. BFAW got fixed to work, IIRC, sometime after the Diplomacy system (pre-DOFFing) made its debut. Power creep was so much more marginal back then.
Comments
Same goes for the gospel of Anti-BFAW.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
- Leach fuels engines to get to the next targets faster?
- Terran Core is kept in alert mode for 130 gun power?
Everybody who parses his runs knows that this kind of DPS is a slim or even close to none existent part to his overall DPS archived. Of course that heavily depends on how good one gets at what he is doing but I can assure you that on my 90k+ runs (I do with beams as well as cannons) “fake DPS” makes up a few percent at most. That’s hardly anything to care about and where I would have to undertake great lengths to avoid. If I would do such a thing it would lower my performance massively.
And no, in PvE single targeting abilities are not better or bring a better benefit to the team because on 95% of the occasions you simply have to fight multiple opponents at the same time which you do with area attacks best. I don’t think so. Players which do fine with whatever form of attack they use are at peace. They parse their performance to monitor results of their builds and gaming efforts or perhaps chose to enter competitions with other players in the STO league. That’s all. Fanaticism is something I only see in peeps which are unhappy with their performance and look for ways to devalue or discredit the achievements of peeps that do fine. I would move it to Ten Forward like @taylor1701d suggested. The thread and the misconceptions about FAW are simply too interesting to read and help a bit to clarify why unbelievable low parses are recorded in pug runs at times.
Some peeps deal less DPS in space than I do on ground. They do so with or without BFAW by the way.
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Agreed that those who deal close to or over 100k DPS with FAW are probably doing more than just pressing spacebar. B:FAW on its own won't get you those high numbers so one might argue that there's more, be it skills or other elements of a build, involved.
That doesn't mean that there aren't some things wrong with FAW though. Overcapping has frequently been cited as one of the problems, and there's of course the issue with the fact that it requires little to no actual targeting.
Also, it's still the ability which is the easiest to use. Something that is available on every ship and so easy to use shouldn't be so powerful. I tried FAW once, and I didn't get much over 30k DPS, but I didn't seriously invest in my gear or build either, didn't get Leech, didn't do anything to get my power above 125, and my beams were only very rare mk 14's, one of them ultra rare. The only thing I did when I changed from beam overload + torp spread to FAW, was putting FAW on my tray.
Such a simple change, and yet very effective. That, and the fact that there's the two issues described above, which are actual features of FAW and thus cannot be ignored or dismissed, mean that I can only conclude that FAW is indeed overperforming.
I have no idea who Oden is, nor do I know about his build. But I do know that it's ridiculously simple to put FAW on a ship, get in range of the enemies and just press spacebar.
Yes, there are other powerful builds. But those are the entire builds that are powerful, and they're not centred around a single ability that's responsible for most of the DPS.
Take an average Sci build: it requires high aux power, particle generators (meaning less flexilibity for certain gear such as deflectors), high sci officer skills and you're going to need multiple copies of most abilities, as well as different abilities (unlike FAW, which can be put on practically every ship that's above T2). Add to that the fact that most sci vessels have fewer weapon slots and that torpedoes and sci skills will be more difficult to use while broadsiding, thus making targeting in a sci vessel more difficult, and I think I can safely conclude that FAW is ridiculously easy to use, and that it doesn't really require any sacrifices to be made.
It is the most simple solution to the bulk of the enemies, ranging from Borg to Herald spam (why do you think people have been calling for counter measures being used by them?). The Voth are probably one of the few exceptions, and even there the use of FAW is hardly punishing in that you could just add a torp spread to deal with the Aceton thingies for example.
All I wanted to convey is that its false to believe one could slap on 2 copies of FaW and go off and be successful in Elite queues.
It just doesn't work like that.
You've got other things to worry about in Elite.
And the wrong selections of skills will make you a detriment to the team.
As far as Beam overcapping, yes that's an issue that I don't disagree with. Other weapon types don't get that benefit.
And in regards to FaW multi-targeting everything, yeah that is also a bit much. *The AoE of FaW should at least respect the Arc of equipped beams. right ?
I'll admit right now cannon users do get the short end of the stick.
But is it really that much of a gimp ? I don't think so when I can hit 40k in a turret boat with no keybinds.
And If you've been around long enough you'll remember when almost NOBODY used FaW, it was Escorts online and Cannons were prolific. Barring PvP builds that were using Double BO.
At that time "the Joke" was Cannons Online. So Cannons did have their time in the sun.
After LoR was released beams became "In Fashion" again. At that point (and up until DR) Beams really were "The Only Solution", and nothing could compete fairly with them.
It was during this Era that all these BFaW Jokes originated from.
But Post DR, every weapon type has great potential for DPS. You got people doing incredible DPS with Kin/Exo builds. And even pure Torp builds.
Which is why I say this Joke is two years late.
The Meta is much different these days, there is good equity between weapon types now. Or at least ALOT better then there was.
With a few changes to cannons, I hope to see these anti FaW threads die out, and remain in the past where they belong.
The Skill tree revamp will be helping cannons with damage drop off. Its one step closer to putting these threads behind us.
I know, I remember the 'Escorts Online' thing well. It's a good thing that more weapon types and more different builds are viable now. But I have a feeling that these threads won't 'die out' until the more technical issues are taken care of. And I can understand that.
Oh and edit: I'm aware that 'FAW+ spacebar' on their own won't do much in Elite content. The 75k+ people who use FAW are certainly doing more than just that. It's the 20-40k DPS people who seem to think that their parse results are impressive when it's obviously done with one of the easiest to use abilities in the game. Just not impressed with FAW at such moments. I've also seen enough missions fail because people couldn't check their fire and blew a generator too early because theu ran off to the right side before the left side was even entirely cleared etc.
I think that's why people are taking issue with FAW in general: because there's too many people who are using it and substituting one ability for tactics. The highest DPS-FAW'ers know what they're doing. Most other FAW users, - those in the 20k-40k range who I don't necessarily consider 'good players' even though their parse results might be OK, - don't, they're just using it because they've seen it being used or because they're under the impression that it will bring them victory. Which is, sadly, true in most cases and everything below elite content.
any science power, particularly control ones
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Also, make it so that EPtX can't be kept at 100% uptime. Make their duration substantially shorter than their GCD so that people will have to time these skills rather than spam them on CD. That would be a good equalizer IMO.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
You're right and A2B did not get so much nerfed as given countless replacements and even then A2B was a pretty worthless power, doffed A2B was OP.
Any science power? Photonic Officer
Hi. I am the "Oden (aka OdenKnight) that he mentioned. While he has exaggerated on what Kinetics can do w/ respect to FaW, he does have some valid points, especially concerning the, " 'I hate bfaw' crowd". With that said, I lean more towards your points, especially considering how easy it is to use FaW, as well as build around it.
Current FaW success build (typically the same for cannons as well):
1. Ship w/ 3+ Sci consoles. Fill those w/ Embassy Plasma explosion consoles. The more the better.
2. Ship w/ 4-5 Tac Consoles Locators of +Beam or +EnergyChoice.
3. Engineering slots get leech, EPS console, and (a) Uni of choice (BIC or other).
4. Set WPow to Max.
5. Get set gear that boosts Energy Weapons (Iconian currently).
6. Use crafted beams w/ [Pen] (which currently is NOT WAI in favor of the users and teammates, but beams (and by extension, FaW) takes greater advantage of the lingering benefit due to the nature of the issue).
7. Add Reputation Traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options.
8. Add StarShip traits as you see fit. There's plenty of options at various price ranges.
9. Recent addition is to use the Terran Munitions Disruptor, because of its mechanic (does more damage the lower the HP of the target).
I didn't even get into BOffs, DOffs, or macros/binds to make life easier.
Now, if the above isn't the formula for energy builds, PLEASE make corrections as you see fit. As it stands right now, I'm not spec'd into energy weapons, I had my power levels set to Balanced, I didn't use [Pen] weapons, didn't have the Iconian set, and using 3 plasma consoles, Pedal to the Metal (Starship), Nukara Offensive, Precision, EAP, & Advanced Targeting (Rep), I can throw down 40K-70K in a PuG flying bleh. In order to do the same w/ Sci-Torps (or torps alone), I have to fly much better, have my gear for the type of build and ship I am bringing into the match, the appropriate DOffs, the right BOff powers, and the decision to go more offensive or more defensive, because threat's a real issue currently w/ anything that isn't stacking -Threat. This doesn't even take into account the issues that negatively affect cannons and torps/mines, of which some aren't even being addressed in 11.5.
The point is, it's WAY easier to mess up in a FaW build and STILL do stupendous amounts of DPS. The same cannot be said for cannons & torps. With FaW, it's easier to build and to fly, and it's easier to take to the highest ends of DPS. This doesn't even factor in the multitude of traits and gear that benefit energy weapons. Combine that with things like overcapping, added damage from WPow, and the ease of use of FaW, plus map design, plus low hp target-rich environments, and it made FaW go from ho-hum back when it was "Escorts Online", to, "FaW FTW" that it is now.
I'm one that always has advocated for fixes first to other weapon types and abilities before doing a balance pass on anything. That stands to this day.
PS. The 4th nerf to Neutronic and the Nerf to Quantum Phase (both under TS) and the bugs for both under HY need to be fixed. Make no mistake, they are nerfs. If FaW got the same treatment, people would cry foul, ESPECIALLY those that use Embassy consoles.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Btw, I knew who you are. I just didn't want to pay too much attention to one specific build, especially not when it's used as an excuse not to fix overperforming abilities such as FAW
Cause as you said, your builds may be effective, they also seem much harder to use. So that effectiveness is well deserved I guess. Something I'm not so sure about with regard to FAW.
Interesting statement there Oden.
Personally, now that I've been playing with FAW builds, I find them not easier, but rather different to what I am used to. Maybe because I started playing the game with torps and science rather than beams, I am not used to the best way to play with FAW.
From my limited experience thus far, FAW is more about keeping uptimes and buff sync with firing cycles. Torps and science on the other hand is more about timing and target prioritization. Because of that, I tend to forget to chain EPtX for 100% uptime (my stubbornness to avoid the use of keybinds doesn't help). Sometimes I also forget to use FAW when I am not faced with multiple targets because I am used to conserving cooldowns on TS and sci abilities. On the other hand, target acquisition is very easy on FAW boats and so is positioning.
Perhaps your experience flying cannon boats helps you bridge the gap between FAW and torps. Right now I am still learning myself.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
I agree 100%!
I'm waiting until the new skill tree goes live to see how cannons compare. I have a feeling siege builds with CSV and TS (and maybe GW) will become a thing.
Also, I often hear the term "piloting" when talking about beam boats. Beam boats don't require piloting, they require positioning and timing. Cannon and torpedo boats require piloting, positioning and timing.
Man, that's the easiest part:
I mean.......DUH!!!
I just wanted to quote this post and point out that in the midst of a long, somewhat heated discussion, this post here is actually a very good "guide" on ship building for the current state of the game that a returning player (myself) finds extremely valuable. Not to just build a FAW setup, but really to think about item choices and the build itself. (Because you give a lot of room for flexibility and how to still build something that doesn't have to use FAW).
So thanks for that.
Also, while a lot of that information may make it seem like that's an easier build to make and fly (and it probably is) keep in mind it's still a bit of work for someone still getting back into the groove of the game. So easy is still relative.
Using myself as the anecdote ... I stopped playing right before Delta Rising came out. I used to run an aux2batt build on a fleet Assault Cruiser. I was running phasers. I wasn't top of the charts, but I did decent.
I got tempted back to the game with a free ship. And then the ship sale got my wallet back into the game. But I'm now trying to figure out how to build my T6 Guardian better, and how to change the build as I don't think the aux2batt setup is the best way to build that ship. So that post right there opens my eyes to a lot of other possibilities.
You guys can get back to your discussion of BFAW. But thanks for adding a lot of missing context on the current state of the game for me.
Oh and let's keep in mind that at the height of Escorts Online, one of the primary reasons BFAW wasn't the force it is, was it didn't work. BFAW got fixed to work, IIRC, sometime after the Diplomacy system (pre-DOFFing) made its debut. Power creep was so much more marginal back then.
Glad I could help... somewhat.... in getting you ready for FaW spam.... (the Kinetic Kommunity will have me excommunicated for this)...
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
It's for my engineer who has flown cruisers alllllll the way back to launch day.
My next project is my science alt. And I want to build him a torpedo boat. That's just going to take me longer is all.