Are combat and non-combat skills being separated?
For example, I can understand how tier of ship, warp core (tier,rarity), and engineering department would affect sector travel speed, but making people put points into a skill that could have gone into combat related skills just seems weird.
maybe have a non-combat skill tree, or just upgrade equipment only. idk what would help here.
All right, I /bugged most of more specific nitpicks, but after carefully reading skill tooltips here's some more freeform feedback...
There' are some skills (both Weapon Training trees) and some skill-like things (Sector speed, threat) where we're just given skill level or a percentage without any idea of what it means exactly. (@snicketysnick 's complaint about Drain Overload is very similar, except there we don't get any numbers at all.)
Some skill tooltips use difficult to parse "percentage of a percentage" language. (Shield regen and hardness, as an example) I'm no native speaker and I'm not sure how to phrase it better, but one possible way would be to add some specific example ("increases amount of damage negated by 50% from .2% to .3%.")
All space traits that affect skills I've seen so far use some mishmash of old and new skills in different ways.
First tac unlock... It only makes sense for KDF, where it's a somewhat meaningful choice even without c-store ships. For Romulans it's a no-brainer, and for the Federation both skills are pointless (again, without C-Store stuff.)
Training manual unlocks, as everyone already have said, seem to be just randomly placed on unlock tracks, while in the old system they were at least attached to (usually) relevant skills. I don't like it and I think that returning them back to specific skills would be a good idea.
And you can unlock only half of ground manuals instead of all (except one if you wanted max space skills) under the old system. Just... Why?
Alright, I spent a couple hours fiddling with the new Skill Tree last night (BTW thanks for taking my suggestion and making this tree layout! Its so much easier to navigate and matches the other skill trees, the layout is perfect!).
I do have some serious layout feedback:
1) The tab for selecting Specializations Intel/Command/etc. is too small
I seriously spent an entire minute browsing trying to figure out why I could only see Intel and not the other Spec trees. I would recommend making each one a separate tab or at the very least, actually listing all 4 in one screen somehow rather than trying to have a pull-down tab. Its going to confuse a lot of new players who may never actually find anything other than Intel specialization if thats all they can physically see without hitting the tiny down-arrow pulldown button.
2) The "Ultimate" abilities on the progression bar on the bottom of the screen have buttons that are too small!
This will be another issue where new players may never actually find this feature... There is no popup or clear notification about these "Ultimate" unlocks and while I was trying to learn the system, it was difficult to figure out that you actually need to SELECT one of the two once you reach that point on the unlock bar.
My recommendation is to increase the size (vertically if possible) of the Tac/Eng/Sci progression bars. Plus, maybe have a popup occur forcing a selection when you reach that point on the progression bar would REALLY help! A LOT of new players will look right past this!
I don't have much feedback about the actual skills or combat feedback, but IMO this new tree favors running alts far more than the previous tree. Its more difficult to run a "universal" build now, and specialized PVP vs PVE or Tank vs. DPS characters will be required to make more use of this tree. Not necessarily a bad thing.
I would like the skill selection layout to draw more on the formatting seen in specializations - large, readable bars across the top rather than the bottom .
I like the general direction the revamp is going in and the details on the skills now. The tactical tree is really well done in the main skills but is just leaving the eng and sci further in the dust.
Major item to fix- Allow the skills to be all chosen and changed before a final confirmation, not with each point spent. Just like in Holo now. If you make a mistake it costs you a respect token now. This will be a major complaint if it goes live as is.
I agree. This could be issue.
Alternatively, what could help is if there was an option to select a particular power (like Gravity Well or a Beam Array) and when you hover over a power, the tooltip also displays how this power changes. (the current skill system allows you to pick a power and see the skills affected by it highlighted. This would basically be a step up beyond it.)
There definitely needs to be an ability to preview what your choice will actually do to specific powers. Even a well written description of the power will not really make that any easier.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Humans shouldn't spontaneously regenerate? Jslyn... you do remember that this is a video game, right? Humans spontaneously regrow LIMBS constantly. XD And yes, that includes in here. Otherwise stepping on a chroniton mine would be a massive game over.
Health regen is a core aspect of a lot of video games, including this one. A lot of items in this game are valuable because they grant said regen. Making in zero in combat is not only silly, it fundamentally alters or destroys some ground builds. Not MINE, I use Nanite Health Monitor to stay alive, but quite a few. Mabe... make it so that it's zero if you have no points in Regeneration Skill, and then... 25% in combat with rank 1 and 50% with rank 2? 100% health regen in combat would be absurd too, after all. But not as silly as 0.
Pish. Back in MY day we died a lot, and we LIKED it that way. Now get offa muh lawn. :P
No Health Regen in combat gives a purpose to many of the Skills (such the one you mentioned) and the Items. Does anyone really use the Food right now? Those would be become much more useful. You would want to eat a snack right before combat to get that regeneration effect.
This may have been mentioned, but playing a tactical toon on Tribble, I noticed that my first "choice" after spending my Ground skill point was between two grenade options (photon, and smoke). Looking ahead, there were two melee options (Lunge and Sweeping Strikes). Others may disagree, but to me it seems that choosing between grenade and melee options is a better way to go. Forexample, choosing between photon grenade and lunge at 5, then later choosing between Smoke grenade and Sweeping strikes.
Just my thoughts.
Confirm Button? How long and how many millions of Dilithium went wasted with the 'Finish Now' Button in Crafting not having a Confirm Button before one was added?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
People who aren't testing this on tribble will be at a huge disadvantage when it goes live. You cannot expect the entire player base to come learn the new system on tribble. At least 3 respec tokens should come free with the revamp to allow for mistakes with the new system. Maybe reward 3 tokens for completing the tutorial for new people who come in after the revamp is live, or they will be just as lost as they are now.
Why are the ultimate's at 26 points? I thought they would be 25 points which actually makes more sense to me since all the other bonus's are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 points. Also in order to get the full focused frenzy you need 28 points which forces you to spec into Coordination Protocols even if you don't have pets. If the ultimate's are moved to 25-27 points this problem goes away with everyone happy.
While I agree that pet buffs are useless at the 5 point passive, they cant be moved too high. I would suggest no higher than at the 15 point mark. Might still be a little early in character progression but if you force carrier captains to put 20+ points in tactical for those passives it severely limits what a lot of carrier captains can do with their builds. Maybe put one pet passive at 15 points and the other at 20 points, this way the captain has to make a choice when constructing his/her carrier build.
Some of the passives need to be rearranged so were not forced into cloak or pet passives. Also I don't like threat control as a passive but at least give us a better option than pet health if this is how it has to be.
Just wanted to get my $.02 in the official thread. It'll take some getting used to but I think this revamp should work out better than I thought. It does retain some of the flexibility we have now in space, but we do lose the specialization of ground dedicated toons we have now.
Confirm Button? How long and how many millions of Dilithium went wasted with the 'Finish Now' Button in Crafting not having a Confirm Button before one was added?
It WOULD be nice to be able to allocate everything, fine tune it, and THEN hit the confirm button, kinda like it is now. The way it is on tribble atm, forcing you to perma buy each point as you go, just seems like its intentionally designed to cause people to make mistakes and force increased respec sales. On live currently we can make our selections across all levels, fine tune them if we see we don't have enough points for this or that, and THEN lock them all in once we are sure we have what we want, why can't we have that with the new system as well?
tl;dr it feels like a bully tactic cash grab, even if that's not the true intent.
People who aren't testing this on tribble will be at a huge disadvantage when it goes live. You cannot expect the entire player base to come learn the new system on tribble. At least 3 respec tokens should come free with the revamp to allow for mistakes with the new system. Maybe reward 3 tokens for completing the tutorial for new people who come in after the revamp is live, or they will be just as lost as they are now.
Why are the ultimate's at 26 points? I thought they would be 25 points which actually makes more sense to me since all the other bonus's are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 points. Also in order to get the full focused frenzy you need 28 points which forces you to spec into Coordination Protocols even if you don't have pets. If the ultimate's are moved to 25-27 points this problem goes away with everyone happy.
While I agree that pet buffs are useless at the 5 point passive, they cant be moved too high. I would suggest no higher than at the 15 point mark. Might still be a little early in character progression but if you force carrier captains to put 20+ points in tactical for those passives it severely limits what a lot of carrier captains can do with their builds. Maybe put one pet passive at 15 points and the other at 20 points, this way the captain has to make a choice when constructing his/her carrier build.
Some of the passives need to be rearranged so were not forced into cloak or pet passives. Also I don't like threat control as a passive but at least give us a better option than pet health if this is how it has to be.
Just wanted to get my $.02 in the official thread. It'll take some getting used to but I think this revamp should work out better than I thought. It does retain some of the flexibility we have now in space, but we do lose the specialization of ground dedicated toons we have now.
They shouldnt even be in the Tactical Skill Tree to begin with. I cant speak for Klingons or Roms (Might be mistaken but I believe Roms dont even have a true Carrier) but the Feds only two true Carriers are both Science. Now Im not saying that that is where these skill should land. But they definitely dont fit into the Tactical Skill Tree since the only Tactical Starships with Fighters are Tactically oriented Cruisers and some Flight Deck Escorts. Nothing completely focused on Pets. The escorts are more meh than the Cruisers.
This is something that should of been given its own Skill Tree and its something that shouldnt be bogging down Tactical Nodes. The Stealth Node is understandable. But why am I or anyone else not flying a Defiant/MES Build or a Carrier being asked to choose between those two? What incentive is that? It really doesnt matter where those two land on the scale for the Nodes since they remain Non-Starters for anyone without those two specific types of playstyles.
I'd have to go back and look at what the Tactical Skill Tree has and doesnt have to think up some suggestions that would fill that void. But currently Im not at all happy about how Pets are being shoehorned into the Tactical Tree.
[...]
EPS affects power transfer rate. You wont see a bonus on the power tooltip, but it does affect the power. You dont even see a note on the tool tip under the current system.
Just tested the actual power bonus on Tribble after respeccing two points into EPS and zoning. Same result: A flat power bonus of 22.5 for EptS1. I had 50 before clicking the power, 72 after.
In addition, please note that the Full Impulse recovery is now a separate ability that can be purchased as the "third EPS point".
Guess what... if you tested out EptS1 on Live... you'd also get 22.5 power. Because Starship Electro-Plasma Systems does not affect the numerical power level. It affects the rate at which a subsystem will reach the numerical level.
In addition... the 'Full Impulse Energy Shunt' passive is the bonus you would have gotten from putting 9 points in Driver Coil on the live server, in which it only makes your subsystems drain to 25 instead of 5. So yes, in a way if affect the speed of your recovery to full power after exiting full impulse, but only by making your power levels start from a higher base position, than they would if you didnt have it.
With full EPS, your power transfer rate (listed in your Ship Stats tab) goes from 100% (or 5 units of power per second) to 210% (or 10.5 units of power per second).
[...]
EPS affects power transfer rate. You wont see a bonus on the power tooltip, but it does affect the power. You dont even see a note on the tool tip under the current system.
Just tested the actual power bonus on Tribble after respeccing two points into EPS and zoning. Same result: A flat power bonus of 22.5 for EptS1. I had 50 before clicking the power, 72 after.
In addition, please note that the Full Impulse recovery is now a separate ability that can be purchased as the "third EPS point".
EPS doesn't affect the power boost you get from Emergency Power abilities at all anymore. They've treated it like Attack Patterns, wherein Emergency Power abilities now get the same power boost they would get if you maxed out EPS in the current system.
I would actually invert the EPS tree and put Impulse Shunt as the first tier, then the 2 EPS levels after.
Overall, I think I got my current setup into the Tribble trees, but without my character in there, it's a bit hard to compare if things translated 1:1. I guess I'll have to wait for that.
Overall the skill tree is a lot easier to understand. A cursory glance on the tooltips seems like they are more friendly to new players as well. Will test a bit more tomorrow.
People who aren't testing this on tribble will be at a huge disadvantage when it goes live. You cannot expect the entire player base to come learn the new system on tribble. At least 3 respec tokens should come free with the revamp to allow for mistakes with the new system. Maybe reward 3 tokens for completing the tutorial for new people who come in after the revamp is live, or they will be just as lost as they are now.
Why are the ultimate's at 26 points? I thought they would be 25 points which actually makes more sense to me since all the other bonus's are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 points. Also in order to get the full focused frenzy you need 28 points which forces you to spec into Coordination Protocols even if you don't have pets. If the ultimate's are moved to 25-27 points this problem goes away with everyone happy.
While I agree that pet buffs are useless at the 5 point passive, they cant be moved too high. I would suggest no higher than at the 15 point mark. Might still be a little early in character progression but if you force carrier captains to put 20+ points in tactical for those passives it severely limits what a lot of carrier captains can do with their builds. Maybe put one pet passive at 15 points and the other at 20 points, this way the captain has to make a choice when constructing his/her carrier build.
Some of the passives need to be rearranged so were not forced into cloak or pet passives. Also I don't like threat control as a passive but at least give us a better option than pet health if this is how it has to be.
Just wanted to get my $.02 in the official thread. It'll take some getting used to but I think this revamp should work out better than I thought. It does retain some of the flexibility we have now in space, but we do lose the specialization of ground dedicated toons we have now.
They shouldnt even be in the Tactical Skill Tree to begin with. I cant speak for Klingons or Roms (Might be mistaken but I believe Roms dont even have a true Carrier) but the Feds only two true Carriers are both Science. Now Im not saying that that is where these skill should land. But they definitely dont fit into the Tactical Skill Tree since the only Tactical Starships with Fighters are Tactically oriented Cruisers and some Flight Deck Escorts. Nothing completely focused on Pets. The escorts are more meh than the Cruisers.
This is something that should of been given its own Skill Tree and its something that shouldnt be bogging down Tactical Nodes. The Stealth Node is understandable. But why am I or anyone else not flying a Defiant/MES Build or a Carrier being asked to choose between those two? What incentive is that? It really doesnt matter where those two land on the scale for the Nodes since they remain Non-Starters for anyone without those two specific types of playstyles.
I'd have to go back and look at what the Tactical Skill Tree has and doesnt have to think up some suggestions that would fill that void. But currently Im not at all happy about how Pets are being shoehorned into the Tactical Tree.
Yeah I thought the same but just went with it, since I'm not sure where else to fit them atm.
People who aren't testing this on tribble will be at a huge disadvantage when it goes live. You cannot expect the entire player base to come learn the new system on tribble. At least 3 respec tokens should come free with the revamp to allow for mistakes with the new system. Maybe reward 3 tokens for completing the tutorial for new people who come in after the revamp is live, or they will be just as lost as they are now.
Why are the ultimate's at 26 points? I thought they would be 25 points which actually makes more sense to me since all the other bonus's are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 points. Also in order to get the full focused frenzy you need 28 points which forces you to spec into Coordination Protocols even if you don't have pets. If the ultimate's are moved to 25-27 points this problem goes away with everyone happy.
While I agree that pet buffs are useless at the 5 point passive, they cant be moved too high. I would suggest no higher than at the 15 point mark. Might still be a little early in character progression but if you force carrier captains to put 20+ points in tactical for those passives it severely limits what a lot of carrier captains can do with their builds. Maybe put one pet passive at 15 points and the other at 20 points, this way the captain has to make a choice when constructing his/her carrier build.
Some of the passives need to be rearranged so were not forced into cloak or pet passives. Also I don't like threat control as a passive but at least give us a better option than pet health if this is how it has to be.
Just wanted to get my $.02 in the official thread. It'll take some getting used to but I think this revamp should work out better than I thought. It does retain some of the flexibility we have now in space, but we do lose the specialization of ground dedicated toons we have now.
They shouldnt even be in the Tactical Skill Tree to begin with. I cant speak for Klingons or Roms (Might be mistaken but I believe Roms dont even have a true Carrier) but the Feds only two true Carriers are both Science. Now Im not saying that that is where these skill should land. But they definitely dont fit into the Tactical Skill Tree since the only Tactical Starships with Fighters are Tactically oriented Cruisers and some Flight Deck Escorts. Nothing completely focused on Pets. The escorts are more meh than the Cruisers.
This is something that should of been given its own Skill Tree and its something that shouldnt be bogging down Tactical Nodes. The Stealth Node is understandable. But why am I or anyone else not flying a Defiant/MES Build or a Carrier being asked to choose between those two? What incentive is that? It really doesnt matter where those two land on the scale for the Nodes since they remain Non-Starters for anyone without those two specific types of playstyles.
I'd have to go back and look at what the Tactical Skill Tree has and doesnt have to think up some suggestions that would fill that void. But currently Im not at all happy about how Pets are being shoehorned into the Tactical Tree.
Yeah I thought the same but just went with it, since I'm not sure where else to fit them atm.
A new "Carrier Commander" or "Commodore" or something spec tree would be the perfect place for all the hangar stuff imho.
The new Control Expertise skill just highlights, for me, that Science Confuses/Placates could probably use a buff, for PVE at least. I feel like anything I can do in a Science Vessel, I could do in any ship with a Lcdr Pilot seat and a copy of Attack Pattern Lambda III. And there I'd have a lot better Tactical damage output, rather than my Confuse/Placate ability taking a space that could be used for one of my damaging or healing Science abilities.
I think the biggest issue is the fragileness of those abilities. Lambda's confuse only lasts 5 seconds, but you can wail on that enemy during those 5 seconds and they're staying confused. Scramble/Jam Sensors breaks as soon as you sneeze at the enemy and the ability cooldowns are twice the duration of Lambda. I realize, Lambda is the outlier here...but it's much closer to what a PVE confuse should be, IMO.
(Yeah, I guess this is more Science ability feedback than skill feedback. Everything about the new skill is great.)
-edit-
I got a little too focused on Lamda in this. The Intel disables/placates also feel much stronger than the Science ones, and again don't really have the same opportunity trade-offs on many ships that Science abilities do.
Here is here my evaluation of the new skills training; week one.
My first time through the game, I had my skills all messed up. It was too confusing. After a year of playing as a level 60 captain, I purchased a respec token to fix my skills and I still didn’t get it quite right. I forgot to max my driver coil which is annoying traveling around sector space. After playing the game for a year though, I understood all the difference options. Generally I gave 6 points to almost everything which is mostly what the new system does. With the old system I ether gave 6 points to the category or nothing. The old system it was easy to mess up the spending as you were first leveling up. So I really like the new direction.
Ground Skills Evaluation
My playing style is aggressive. I would rather be hitting someone with the butt of my rifle than hiding behind a barrier. I like how you are able to unlock the first level of everything. You can’t go into the 100% without sacrificing another skill, but that was how the old system worked.
As far as purchasing extra skills, I’m not a fan on having to choose only one skill on each level. The other is now permanently locked out. In some cases the choices make sense, some don’t and some you lose abilities you have in the old system. It seems like some of the added bonuses are like traits, but with traits you can pick and choose between and try them out. The skills can’t change.
Here is the list of the skill unlocks from a tactical officer view.
Photon vs Smoke - Smoke is a new training manual. I get the decision; defensive vs offensive.
Will power vs Device - Device abilities are new but I don’t get the choice.
Lunge vs sweeping strikes - I could be both before, so you lose an ability to create training manuals here.
Aim vs crouch - I get the decision; defensive vs offensive.
Target Optics vs suppressing fire - I could be both before, so you lose an ability to create training manuals here.
Melee skills – I don’t get the run speed option. Are you fighting or running? What about the rifle butt strike which can be always done. Will that give you a run speed boost afterwards?
Mark on my mark vs stun - I could be both before, so you lose an ability to create training manuals here.
Flank skills make sense.
Over watch vs stealth - I could be both before, so you lose an ability to create training manuals here.
Offense vs defense choices are good.
Space skills
For the most part the skill grouping seems ok. I looks you can get two levels of most very thing you need. With a couple of choices left over. My only concern is that though my character is a tactical, I enjoy all types of ships. I want good exotic damage and science powers for my science ships but awesome tactical powers for my tactical ones. By the time you even out your abilities you don’t progress very far in any particular tree. Also it would be confusing for beginners because it seems that you would only want to advance in the tactical tree. Once they play enough to know better than it would be too late.
The thing is that you get maxed out fairly quickly and once you are level 60 you can’t progress your skills any farther, especially when you start enjoying all the different types of ships.
Another thought is all the wording for the ship parts and mods reference the skills and how they add bonuses. I seems like it will be more difficult to tell how the mods will benefit.
Other thoughts
You should give free respect tokens for limited time when you finally do the roll out.
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the Skill part (In the character screen --> ship --> Stats) is missing a lot of skill descriptions. There's descriptions for Defense, Attack, Movement etc. but not for things like Particle generators (or what will be Controll or Drain etc.)
2) The Ultimates are there to tempt you into trying something that IS NOT your current build. Branch out, experiment.
I know we've already got a separate thread about this (which I did comment in), but since this is the thread you seem to be poking your head into, I wanted to point out that, if the goals are to make the skill system less intimidating for newer players and encourage current players to "branch out, experiment", the current cost of skill respecs severally hampers the accomplishment of both goals. Newer players might still feel discouraged at the idea of having to pay money for making "wrong" choices earlier on, and most current players are likely still going to want to stick to "cookie cutter" builds, rather than gamble away money on something more experimental.
"There will never be enough blood to wash away my need for vengeance! A single world...I could destroy a million worlds and it would not be enough! Your existence is an insult to the memory of my people! I will continue my fight, even if I must fight alone!"
Edited my questions since I did a little more reading. Thanks everyone.
1. Since hull regen has been set to max levels are we talking both in and out of combat?
Does this mean that if we spend hull regen points we'll exceed what our maxes were before and if we don't our numbers will be as are now?
2. Since shield power benefits have been lowered about how many points will one have to put in shield regen to gain previous levels if shield power setting is kept at same levels?...and will shield regen reflect in the ship UI/tool tip when and if we put points into it. As it is now shield regen numbers never changed to show true regen based on shield power setting, instead of base.
Also is this new Hull Pen skill the same and tied to the [Pen] modifier of crafted weapons?
Post edited by grayfoxjames on
Fleet Admiral Thomas Winston James a.k.a. The Grayfox Fleet Leader of:
Liberty Task Force/Liberty Honor Guard
Pride of the Federation/Pride of the Empire
Liberty Guardians U.S.S. Liberty, NX-42813-L, T-6 Legendary Odyssey Class
Are combat and non-combat skills being separated?
For example, I can understand how tier of ship, warp core (tier,rarity), and engineering department would affect sector travel speed, but making people put points into a skill that could have gone into combat related skills just seems weird.
maybe have a non-combat skill tree, or just upgrade equipment only. idk what would help here.
I agree, forcing a choice between combat and non-combat in a character build system is usually a bad idea.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
One of my biggest concerns is Hull and Shield Regen. Will Hull regen still be tied to crew (which was quite broken for cruisers as it's based on percent of crew)
There's no crew stat anymore, all crew-related consoles are converted into something else (details in patchnotes,) and (I think) it works now as if you have 100% alive crew at all times.
The "Purchase Skills" button flashes constantly in the upper left hand corner of the UI.
It's been calling to me ever since I left the Tutorial.
I'm at Level 10 now and have placed all Six of my Space points and the two Ground points.
Can You make it stop please, it's annoying.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I agree with most of what people have said with suggestions so far. Like the concept though. I certainly agree with the fact that I don't understand the need for Steath and Hanger Pets available at level 10. It isn't needed really for PvP until much later, and in PvE no one really ever needs steath boosts because your vanilla cloak and mask energy systems works just fine, if you need that at all, which you really don't. Hanger Pets I'm trying to think of when the first ship to really get Hanger Pets is at, and it's much higher then level 10. As many others have said is I think if you simply moved it up a few levels and moved down the projectiles or energy weapon boosts it would work much better for the entry level character.
Secondly I think you need a tutorial to put a big old arrow up once you get your first unlock, so people know that you have to choose an unlock, it's not automatic. I've played the game long enough to go hunting for the flashing button, but with the button so tiny if I hadn't gone and looked at it I'd never have found it. If there is a tutorial involved with that specific portion of the new skill tree it never appeared for me, so that may simply be a bug.
Otherwise I like the flow. I guess the only other nit pick I have is the ultimates don't really explain well exactly what they do. I'm guessing though that the tooltips are just place holders though.
Overall I liked what I saw. I cheated eventually and created a new character and level it up all the way to 60 to test some other things out and basically what I did notice is that no I didn't get exactly what I wanted in my Holodeck build, but it was a trade off with getting better is some other locations (basically my drains are much better now, my hull survivability a bit less, my shields seem to be just about the same.) It'll take some work to tweak and massage it but that's later. So basically for those saying "I can't get my exact build from holodeck on tribble"... no you probably can't. But you'll get a bit of a trade off as well becoming better in other aspects.
[...]
Unless the entire EPS system is changing, EPS flow also affects the speed at which power:
A. returns to full from Full Impulse
and
B. the speed at which weapon power replenishes after a firing cycle.
The latter hasn't been the case for quite some time, as far as I know. But in any case, the goal of the new system is to be clear and explicit, and if what you say is true, then both of it needs to be added to the description.
I wasnt sure about the latter, but I am sure of the former. In the current skills system, putting points into Starship Electro-Plasma Systems affects your power transfer rate, which in turn affects the rate at which sub systems will reach their set values including when coming out of full impulse (and conversely will affect the speed at which you reach full engine power when entering full impulse). Additionally the skill affects the Engineer Captain ability EPS transfer and the EptX powers. Theres no reason to expect that to change in the new system.
Just by looking at the skills... I get the distinct feeling that my current build will be severly broken by this revamp... and I do not like that...
Have to remember one thing...
Just one node in the new skill tree = more benefit than 9 points in the old skill tree. That opens up a lot of possibilities that will exceed your current build on holodeck. I figured this out myself today. Personally, I run a FAW/Leech/Kemocite build with flow caps (thank goodness Kemocite is being fixed in this patch!) and this new tree will allow me to increase my DPS on top of offering me that bonus armor pen and the flat bonus BOFF ability cooldown. Look forward to this going live.
I aware of that. And until I can transfer my main over to tribble and find out if my build is broken or not, my reaction is a gut reaction, as that is all I can really give. I run a build likely similar to yours (without the kemocite), but Im not sure it will come out of this completely unscathed.
True. Guess we will all find out when it does show its final form. A few things do have me a little nervous, but I'm hoping for the best! ;-)
Well, I've got a new Tribble toon up to level 6, and I already see a problem with choices that a new player likely can't answer at this point: ie do I want more shields and/or hull, or do I want to enhance the outgoing healing abilities of the shield and hull... I think most new players will automaticlly go after more shields with out considering hull or healing. Why - shield's are first line defense in preventing damage to hull/crew - therefore more shield hit points = better defense automatically. They'll also see their default loadout which includes a torpedo - so naturally a new player with out thinking down the road may buy into this and find out later they run so much exotic damage that purchasing into projectiles makes skilling into this a bad choice - suits now yes, but may not suit when they hit level 60. So even with this system, I still forsee that most new player will most likely need to respec just to get the right optimizations as they come to the realizations of what they are going to fly, and what things they are going to run to get good synergy.
As for leveled up and experienced players, I have a bad feeling... But I'm going to keep my mouth shut until I can test a copy of my level 60 char out.
I don't really know coding, so I don't know how feasible it would be, but would it be possible to have 5-10 of the Space Skill Points be Universal Points that could be spent in either Space or Ground? While, I'm sure, the majority of people would still use them in Space Skills, the ability to choose to be more ground specialised would be greatly appreciated and I, and many people I know, would certainly utilise it.
Well, I've got a new Tribble toon up to level 6, and I already see a problem with choices that a new player likely can't answer at this point: ie do I want more shields and/or hull, or do I want to enhance the outgoing healing abilities of the shield and hull... I think most new players will automaticlly go after more shields with out considering hull or healing. Why - shield's are first line defense in preventing damage to hull/crew - therefore more shield hit points = better defense automatically. They'll also see their default loadout which includes a torpedo - so naturally a new player with out thinking down the road may buy into this and find out later they run so much exotic damage that purchasing into projectiles makes skilling into this a bad choice - suits now yes, but may not suit when they hit level 60. So even with this system, I still forsee that most new player will most likely need to respec just to get the right optimizations as they come to the realizations of what they are going to fly, and what things they are going to run to get good synergy.
Just a thought - *MAYBE* (and I can hear some protests about this idea, but it's only an idea) what needs to be done is to put an inital limit to prevent people from fool heartedly maxing out a particular skill. Ie: only allow a player to hit the 2nd skill teir max, and then have the final maximum tiers of the locks unlock once they hit level 50...
Comments
For example, I can understand how tier of ship, warp core (tier,rarity), and engineering department would affect sector travel speed, but making people put points into a skill that could have gone into combat related skills just seems weird.
maybe have a non-combat skill tree, or just upgrade equipment only. idk what would help here.
There' are some skills (both Weapon Training trees) and some skill-like things (Sector speed, threat) where we're just given skill level or a percentage without any idea of what it means exactly. (@snicketysnick 's complaint about Drain Overload is very similar, except there we don't get any numbers at all.)
Some skill tooltips use difficult to parse "percentage of a percentage" language. (Shield regen and hardness, as an example) I'm no native speaker and I'm not sure how to phrase it better, but one possible way would be to add some specific example ("increases amount of damage negated by 50% from .2% to .3%.")
All space traits that affect skills I've seen so far use some mishmash of old and new skills in different ways.
First tac unlock... It only makes sense for KDF, where it's a somewhat meaningful choice even without c-store ships. For Romulans it's a no-brainer, and for the Federation both skills are pointless (again, without C-Store stuff.)
Training manual unlocks, as everyone already have said, seem to be just randomly placed on unlock tracks, while in the old system they were at least attached to (usually) relevant skills. I don't like it and I think that returning them back to specific skills would be a good idea.
And you can unlock only half of ground manuals instead of all (except one if you wanted max space skills) under the old system. Just... Why?
I do have some serious layout feedback:
1) The tab for selecting Specializations Intel/Command/etc. is too small
I seriously spent an entire minute browsing trying to figure out why I could only see Intel and not the other Spec trees. I would recommend making each one a separate tab or at the very least, actually listing all 4 in one screen somehow rather than trying to have a pull-down tab. Its going to confuse a lot of new players who may never actually find anything other than Intel specialization if thats all they can physically see without hitting the tiny down-arrow pulldown button.
2) The "Ultimate" abilities on the progression bar on the bottom of the screen have buttons that are too small!
This will be another issue where new players may never actually find this feature... There is no popup or clear notification about these "Ultimate" unlocks and while I was trying to learn the system, it was difficult to figure out that you actually need to SELECT one of the two once you reach that point on the unlock bar.
My recommendation is to increase the size (vertically if possible) of the Tac/Eng/Sci progression bars. Plus, maybe have a popup occur forcing a selection when you reach that point on the progression bar would REALLY help! A LOT of new players will look right past this!
I don't have much feedback about the actual skills or combat feedback, but IMO this new tree favors running alts far more than the previous tree. Its more difficult to run a "universal" build now, and specialized PVP vs PVE or Tank vs. DPS characters will be required to make more use of this tree. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Alternatively, what could help is if there was an option to select a particular power (like Gravity Well or a Beam Array) and when you hover over a power, the tooltip also displays how this power changes. (the current skill system allows you to pick a power and see the skills affected by it highlighted. This would basically be a step up beyond it.)
There definitely needs to be an ability to preview what your choice will actually do to specific powers. Even a well written description of the power will not really make that any easier.
Pish. Back in MY day we died a lot, and we LIKED it that way. Now get offa muh lawn. :P
No Health Regen in combat gives a purpose to many of the Skills (such the one you mentioned) and the Items. Does anyone really use the Food right now? Those would be become much more useful. You would want to eat a snack right before combat to get that regeneration effect.
Just my thoughts.
l don't know.
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Why are the ultimate's at 26 points? I thought they would be 25 points which actually makes more sense to me since all the other bonus's are at 5, 10, 15 and 20 points. Also in order to get the full focused frenzy you need 28 points which forces you to spec into Coordination Protocols even if you don't have pets. If the ultimate's are moved to 25-27 points this problem goes away with everyone happy.
While I agree that pet buffs are useless at the 5 point passive, they cant be moved too high. I would suggest no higher than at the 15 point mark. Might still be a little early in character progression but if you force carrier captains to put 20+ points in tactical for those passives it severely limits what a lot of carrier captains can do with their builds. Maybe put one pet passive at 15 points and the other at 20 points, this way the captain has to make a choice when constructing his/her carrier build.
Some of the passives need to be rearranged so were not forced into cloak or pet passives. Also I don't like threat control as a passive but at least give us a better option than pet health if this is how it has to be.
Just wanted to get my $.02 in the official thread. It'll take some getting used to but I think this revamp should work out better than I thought. It does retain some of the flexibility we have now in space, but we do lose the specialization of ground dedicated toons we have now.
It WOULD be nice to be able to allocate everything, fine tune it, and THEN hit the confirm button, kinda like it is now. The way it is on tribble atm, forcing you to perma buy each point as you go, just seems like its intentionally designed to cause people to make mistakes and force increased respec sales. On live currently we can make our selections across all levels, fine tune them if we see we don't have enough points for this or that, and THEN lock them all in once we are sure we have what we want, why can't we have that with the new system as well?
tl;dr it feels like a bully tactic cash grab, even if that's not the true intent.
They shouldnt even be in the Tactical Skill Tree to begin with. I cant speak for Klingons or Roms (Might be mistaken but I believe Roms dont even have a true Carrier) but the Feds only two true Carriers are both Science. Now Im not saying that that is where these skill should land. But they definitely dont fit into the Tactical Skill Tree since the only Tactical Starships with Fighters are Tactically oriented Cruisers and some Flight Deck Escorts. Nothing completely focused on Pets. The escorts are more meh than the Cruisers.
This is something that should of been given its own Skill Tree and its something that shouldnt be bogging down Tactical Nodes. The Stealth Node is understandable. But why am I or anyone else not flying a Defiant/MES Build or a Carrier being asked to choose between those two? What incentive is that? It really doesnt matter where those two land on the scale for the Nodes since they remain Non-Starters for anyone without those two specific types of playstyles.
I'd have to go back and look at what the Tactical Skill Tree has and doesnt have to think up some suggestions that would fill that void. But currently Im not at all happy about how Pets are being shoehorned into the Tactical Tree.
Guess what... if you tested out EptS1 on Live... you'd also get 22.5 power. Because Starship Electro-Plasma Systems does not affect the numerical power level. It affects the rate at which a subsystem will reach the numerical level.
In addition... the 'Full Impulse Energy Shunt' passive is the bonus you would have gotten from putting 9 points in Driver Coil on the live server, in which it only makes your subsystems drain to 25 instead of 5. So yes, in a way if affect the speed of your recovery to full power after exiting full impulse, but only by making your power levels start from a higher base position, than they would if you didnt have it.
With full EPS, your power transfer rate (listed in your Ship Stats tab) goes from 100% (or 5 units of power per second) to 210% (or 10.5 units of power per second).
Overall, I think I got my current setup into the Tribble trees, but without my character in there, it's a bit hard to compare if things translated 1:1. I guess I'll have to wait for that.
Overall the skill tree is a lot easier to understand. A cursory glance on the tooltips seems like they are more friendly to new players as well. Will test a bit more tomorrow.
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Yeah I thought the same but just went with it, since I'm not sure where else to fit them atm.
A new "Carrier Commander" or "Commodore" or something spec tree would be the perfect place for all the hangar stuff imho.
I think the biggest issue is the fragileness of those abilities. Lambda's confuse only lasts 5 seconds, but you can wail on that enemy during those 5 seconds and they're staying confused. Scramble/Jam Sensors breaks as soon as you sneeze at the enemy and the ability cooldowns are twice the duration of Lambda. I realize, Lambda is the outlier here...but it's much closer to what a PVE confuse should be, IMO.
(Yeah, I guess this is more Science ability feedback than skill feedback. Everything about the new skill is great.)
-edit-
I got a little too focused on Lamda in this. The Intel disables/placates also feel much stronger than the Science ones, and again don't really have the same opportunity trade-offs on many ships that Science abilities do.
My first time through the game, I had my skills all messed up. It was too confusing. After a year of playing as a level 60 captain, I purchased a respec token to fix my skills and I still didn’t get it quite right. I forgot to max my driver coil which is annoying traveling around sector space. After playing the game for a year though, I understood all the difference options. Generally I gave 6 points to almost everything which is mostly what the new system does. With the old system I ether gave 6 points to the category or nothing. The old system it was easy to mess up the spending as you were first leveling up. So I really like the new direction.
Ground Skills Evaluation
My playing style is aggressive. I would rather be hitting someone with the butt of my rifle than hiding behind a barrier. I like how you are able to unlock the first level of everything. You can’t go into the 100% without sacrificing another skill, but that was how the old system worked.
As far as purchasing extra skills, I’m not a fan on having to choose only one skill on each level. The other is now permanently locked out. In some cases the choices make sense, some don’t and some you lose abilities you have in the old system. It seems like some of the added bonuses are like traits, but with traits you can pick and choose between and try them out. The skills can’t change.
Here is the list of the skill unlocks from a tactical officer view.
Space skills
For the most part the skill grouping seems ok. I looks you can get two levels of most very thing you need. With a couple of choices left over. My only concern is that though my character is a tactical, I enjoy all types of ships. I want good exotic damage and science powers for my science ships but awesome tactical powers for my tactical ones. By the time you even out your abilities you don’t progress very far in any particular tree. Also it would be confusing for beginners because it seems that you would only want to advance in the tactical tree. Once they play enough to know better than it would be too late.
The thing is that you get maxed out fairly quickly and once you are level 60 you can’t progress your skills any farther, especially when you start enjoying all the different types of ships.
Another thought is all the wording for the ship parts and mods reference the skills and how they add bonuses. I seems like it will be more difficult to tell how the mods will benefit.
Other thoughts
You should give free respect tokens for limited time when you finally do the roll out.
I know we've already got a separate thread about this (which I did comment in), but since this is the thread you seem to be poking your head into, I wanted to point out that, if the goals are to make the skill system less intimidating for newer players and encourage current players to "branch out, experiment", the current cost of skill respecs severally hampers the accomplishment of both goals. Newer players might still feel discouraged at the idea of having to pay money for making "wrong" choices earlier on, and most current players are likely still going to want to stick to "cookie cutter" builds, rather than gamble away money on something more experimental.
1. Since hull regen has been set to max levels are we talking both in and out of combat?
Does this mean that if we spend hull regen points we'll exceed what our maxes were before and if we don't our numbers will be as are now?
2. Since shield power benefits have been lowered about how many points will one have to put in shield regen to gain previous levels if shield power setting is kept at same levels?...and will shield regen reflect in the ship UI/tool tip when and if we put points into it. As it is now shield regen numbers never changed to show true regen based on shield power setting, instead of base.
Also is this new Hull Pen skill the same and tied to the [Pen] modifier of crafted weapons?
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I agree, forcing a choice between combat and non-combat in a character build system is usually a bad idea.
It's been calling to me ever since I left the Tutorial.
I'm at Level 10 now and have placed all Six of my Space points and the two Ground points.
Can You make it stop please, it's annoying.
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Secondly I think you need a tutorial to put a big old arrow up once you get your first unlock, so people know that you have to choose an unlock, it's not automatic. I've played the game long enough to go hunting for the flashing button, but with the button so tiny if I hadn't gone and looked at it I'd never have found it. If there is a tutorial involved with that specific portion of the new skill tree it never appeared for me, so that may simply be a bug.
Otherwise I like the flow. I guess the only other nit pick I have is the ultimates don't really explain well exactly what they do. I'm guessing though that the tooltips are just place holders though.
Overall I liked what I saw. I cheated eventually and created a new character and level it up all the way to 60 to test some other things out and basically what I did notice is that no I didn't get exactly what I wanted in my Holodeck build, but it was a trade off with getting better is some other locations (basically my drains are much better now, my hull survivability a bit less, my shields seem to be just about the same.) It'll take some work to tweak and massage it but that's later. So basically for those saying "I can't get my exact build from holodeck on tribble"... no you probably can't. But you'll get a bit of a trade off as well becoming better in other aspects.
True. Guess we will all find out when it does show its final form. A few things do have me a little nervous, but I'm hoping for the best! ;-)
As for leveled up and experienced players, I have a bad feeling... But I'm going to keep my mouth shut until I can test a copy of my level 60 char out.
Just a thought - *MAYBE* (and I can hear some protests about this idea, but it's only an idea) what needs to be done is to put an inital limit to prevent people from fool heartedly maxing out a particular skill. Ie: only allow a player to hit the 2nd skill teir max, and then have the final maximum tiers of the locks unlock once they hit level 50...