I haven't been reading the thread since the "Um actually..." started, but I noticed on the second play through that "time travel" flash occurred before the giant holograms showed up.
1- I figure our captains are in a new timeline at this point and even the temporal agents have gotten caught up in it unawares.
2- This being based on a Voyager plot means that everything will reset at the end. Probably by Janeway crashing into the Annorax again.
She's just going to show up and push you out of the way. That's how she rolls.
Regardless of how it plays out: It was just the set up to a longer story line. Even the nigh infallible Picard dropped the ball from time to time and the episode was him fixing that up. Wait until the actual story happens, sillies.
I haven't been reading the thread since the "Um actually..." started, but I noticed on the second play through that "time travel" flash occurred before the giant holograms showed up.
1- I figure our captains are in a new timeline at this point and even the temporal agents have gotten caught up in it unawares.
2- This being based on a Voyager plot means that everything will reset at the end. Probably by Janeway crashing into the Annorax again.
She's just going to show up and push you out of the way. That's how she rolls.
Regardless of how it plays out: It was just the set up to a longer story line. Even the nigh infallible Picard dropped the ball from time to time and the episode was him fixing that up. Wait until the actual story happens, sillies.
I gotta agree here. we don't really have a lot of data to go on. Noye apparently had a LOT of help from within the Imperium. I took out a small fleet of Krenim ships before I forced him to flee. And a few dozen lackeys on the ground map.... So clearly he wasn't acting alone.
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
Sphere Builder tech is the same as Iconian tech is the same as all other tech including Klingon tech during Day of the Comet. I can't tell any significant difference- I press space bar and they blow up.
For once, I'd like to encounter something that is impressive and advanced, and not just stated to be impressive and advanced.
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
Sphere Builder tech is the same as Iconian tech is the same as all other tech including Klingon tech during Day of the Comet. I can't tell any significant difference- I press space bar and they blow up.
For once, I'd like to encounter something that is impressive and advanced, and not just stated to be impressive and advanced.
It's an MMO... what are you expecting? enemy frigates that need a fleet to destroy?
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
Sphere Builder tech is the same as Iconian tech is the same as all other tech including Klingon tech during Day of the Comet. I can't tell any significant difference- I press space bar and they blow up.
For once, I'd like to encounter something that is impressive and advanced, and not just stated to be impressive and advanced.
It's an MMO... what are you expecting? enemy frigates that need a fleet to destroy?
You mean like Raids or Boss fights when you have individual NPCs and sometimes even multiples thereof which are far more powerful than any single PC? And that require actual teamwork to overcome?
You're right such things have NEVER existed in the MMO world, no one would play. Let's try another option.
How about making it so that winning requires different approaches against different foes such that as players we have to adapter and change out our gear?
What's that you say? You did the grinding for that gear and are happy with your build and you want it to best all comings with a single press of a space bar? Of course, you're right- no one would play if it didn't work this way. Besides, no MMO has ever done this.
How about the storyline admits that our ships are better than our foes but give them other storyline advantages like vast numbers (so we can't win everywhere- and make us pick where we do fight and don't fight). Or maybe make them really sneaky where we have to select what we protect and don't protect. And show us the results of our choices good and bad.
Oh heavens, way too complex isn't it? Can't have that. These designers can't even have the Merc upper uniform work on female NPCs (wasted Zen there) so they certainly can't have multiple outcome options within a single mission let along multiple missions. That's never been done in a MMO.
How about a story line that just doesn't use higher tech foes at all. Just don't mention it.
Wait, you want to be told you're doing wonderful and beating the odds even when you aren't? You need that to feel good about yourself? Well then, you have the perfect game.
North Korea is still here, too. We lost. Only one Iconian died. How many did the Coalition lose?
We're not under the control of North Korea or the Iconians, so not sure what your point is.
My point is that the Coalition didn't win the Iconian war, anymore than the US won the Korean war. No treaty was signed, no restitutions were made, and from an attrition standpoint, the Coalition was on the wrong end of a thorough drubbing. Hell, one of the bad guys even said it was going to go on fighting.
Another case of Starfleet disregarding the needs of the many due to one captain's personal, moral, objections. The option to waste the Iconians in the past really should have been an option.
I think there is a treaty in place, a singular agreement between the Iconians and the Coalition, they agree to go away and not bother anyone again, and we agree to leave them alone.
Well that's one way of looking at it. But to be a Starfleet Captain has always meant you're going to be the one alone in the field, against the unknown, and you're given the authority to make major decisions that could affect all of Starfleet/Earth/The Federation's interest with little to no support. They select the Captains with those strong moral personal characteristics so that they will have someone trustworthy to make the call when the committee isn't available for consultation. Of curious note, with a Starfleet Captain and Kagran there, they had two command level officers representing two out of the three primary factions of the Alliance present to make the call.
And the moral judgment here was do nothing, participate in genocide, or take a third option.
As far as the needs of the many there are two ways to look at it. First the helping the Iconians thing was working until Sela chose to complete the mission (and failed to kill her soul mate T'Khet), that's what switched it to the present as we know it.
More pertinent, we don't actually know what would've happened if we had gone the "Renegade" route, so I agree with you, the "bad" option should've been shown. It would've been curious if things had turned out worse requiring us to...go back and fix it? Intercepting ourselves? That would be messy. It would've been a nice early cameo for Captain Walker if he had to come back and help us correct our mistake.
I haven't been reading the thread since the "Um actually..." started, but I noticed on the second play through that "time travel" flash occurred before the giant holograms showed up.
1- I figure our captains are in a new timeline at this point and even the temporal agents have gotten caught up in it unawares.
2- This being based on a Voyager plot means that everything will reset at the end. Probably by Janeway crashing into the Annorax again.
She's just going to show up and push you out of the way. That's how she rolls.
Regardless of how it plays out: It was just the set up to a longer story line. Even the nigh infallible Picard dropped the ball from time to time and the episode was him fixing that up. Wait until the actual story happens, sillies.
1. Walker specifically stated that this wasn't actually supposed to happen and we're in his past still. So yes.
2. I don't need Janeway to trash a Temporal Weapons ship for me.
in STO ? yes , if i remember correct even as klingon i must "set weapons to heavy stun" in "Everything Old is New"
in cannon ?
i suppose klingons dont have ANY non-lethal weapons
in fact Phaser is in theory hi-tech taser , so stun setting is possible
but plasma or disruptor work at completly different basis ............
so just another light fail from Cryptic when we must play FED-based missions .....and here litte joke from me
Well, no. Phasers aren't related to lasers at all really. Just the same naming scheme.
Phasers are actually more closely related to disruptors and coherent plasma beams, not that that invalidates what you said.
And I was joking initially as well.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
Sphere Builder tech is the same as Iconian tech is the same as all other tech including Klingon tech during Day of the Comet. I can't tell any significant difference- I press space bar and they blow up.
For once, I'd like to encounter something that is impressive and advanced, and not just stated to be impressive and advanced.
It's an MMO... what are you expecting? enemy frigates that need a fleet to destroy?
You mean like Raids or Boss fights when you have individual NPCs and sometimes even multiples thereof which are far more powerful than any single PC? And that require actual teamwork to overcome?
You're right such things have NEVER existed in the MMO world, no one would play. Let's try another option.
How about making it so that winning requires different approaches against different foes such that as players we have to adapter and change out our gear?
What's that you say? You did the grinding for that gear and are happy with your build and you want it to best all comings with a single press of a space bar? Of course, you're right- no one would play if it didn't work this way. Besides, no MMO has ever done this.
How about the storyline admits that our ships are better than our foes but give them other storyline advantages like vast numbers (so we can't win everywhere- and make us pick where we do fight and don't fight). Or maybe make them really sneaky where we have to select what we protect and don't protect. And show us the results of our choices good and bad.
Oh heavens, way too complex isn't it? Can't have that. These designers can't even have the Merc upper uniform work on female NPCs (wasted Zen there) so they certainly can't have multiple outcome options within a single mission let along multiple missions. That's never been done in a MMO.
How about a story line that just doesn't use higher tech foes at all. Just don't mention it.
Wait, you want to be told you're doing wonderful and beating the odds even when you aren't? You need that to feel good about yourself? Well then, you have the perfect game.
What does ANY of that have to do with depicting an enemy as more technologically advanced?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Bad example, that was strictly a Q created timeline, completely isolated, just like in All Good Things. Saying Picard wasn't that important was just him tweaking Picard.
Actually, I think it a perfect example.
No it's a horrible example. it was a self contained timeline created by an omnipotent being, and as real and relevant an example of time travel as dropping the crew into a Robin Hood fantasy.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
You need that to feel good about yourself? Well then, you have the perfect game.
EVE is over there --->
EVE combat is even more boring than this games. I'm hoping open world PvP doesn't kill Star Citizen, if it does than it will be The Division for me for the foreseeable future.
I haven't been reading the thread since the "Um actually..." started, but I noticed on the second play through that "time travel" flash occurred before the giant holograms showed up.
1- I figure our captains are in a new timeline at this point and even the temporal agents have gotten caught up in it unawares.
2- This being based on a Voyager plot means that everything will reset at the end. Probably by Janeway crashing into the Annorax again.
She's just going to show up and push you out of the way. That's how she rolls.
Regardless of how it plays out: It was just the set up to a longer story line. Even the nigh infallible Picard dropped the ball from time to time and the episode was him fixing that up. Wait until the actual story happens, sillies.
I keep saying, I want Temporal Investigations to turn up and then we find out Janeway is now in charge of it and is developing a timeship program present day. It would be a very organic development of her character arc and at the same time would explain how reckless or at least less cautious we are now with time travel.
In universe, almost nobody is more qualified. From a fan perspective, it's one of those things that both caters to her fans and the people who hate her.
Kinda like my old, "Make Mirror Wesley the Terran Emperor and have him be deliciously evil, excessively competent, immature, and petty." Because that, also, would cater to both Wesley's fans and detractors. Plus, Wheaton seems to prefer playing bad guys.
Oh heavens, way too complex isn't it? Can't have that. These designers can't even have the Merc upper uniform work on female NPCs (wasted Zen there) so they certainly can't have multiple outcome options within a single mission let along multiple missions. That's never been done in a MMO.
You need that to feel good about yourself? Well then, you have the perfect game.
EVE is over there --->
EVE combat is even more boring than this games. I'm hoping open world PvP doesn't kill Star Citizen, if it does than it will be The Division for me for the foreseeable future.
I liked EVE better when they called it Trade Wars, back in the days of true dial-up BBS systems. Back then, "open PvP" was so brutal even EVE players couldn't handle it. There was literally no such thing as safety. When you logged out, you'd better make sure you had a stockpile of defenses and a good hiding spot, because anyone who came across you while you were offline could attack you and your automated defenses were all you had to rely on. You could come back and find your ship had been destroyed and all your resources looted and you'd have to start again with the beginner ship and try to build back up again.
As to Star Shitizen, the bloody thing would have to launch before it could be killed.
That ahh...sounds like a nightmare. Killed in your sleep.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I liked EVE better when they called it Trade Wars, back in the days of true dial-up BBS systems. Back then, "open PvP" was so brutal even EVE players couldn't handle it. There was literally no such thing as safety. When you logged out, you'd better make sure you had a stockpile of defenses and a good hiding spot, because anyone who came across you while you were offline could attack you and your automated defenses were all you had to rely on. You could come back and find your ship had been destroyed and all your resources looted and you'd have to start again with the beginner ship and try to build back up again.
That ahh...sounds like a nightmare. Killed in your sleep.
It gets worse. Only one person could play at a time because it was a true phone line connection, your computer to the host, so you got a set amount of play time every 24 hours and when your turns ran out you were done. So you had to keep an eye on things and make sure you didn't run out of turns before you got to a safe spot. And of course, by safe I mean somewhere out of the way nobody was likely to run across you. Travel cost turns though so you didn't want it to be -too- far out or you'd never get back to civilized areas with enough turns left to matter. The holy grail was to find some obscure sector only linked to one other out in the boonies but had a short set of jumps to get back to civilization --a semi-hidden cul-de-sac, if you will.
There's no way modern gamers could put up with it, but we did because it was all we had and so we learned to love it. It beat going outside.
When you mentioned it I managed to look up a guy's playthrough on Youtube. I noticed the turns counter, but didn't think it was so...strict. I thought it was just til game over. The truth is actually much worse. I also noticed while the game was compiling the limited number of one way and two way warps. Fascinating. The guy also watched a Star Trek parody film, haggled over fuel prices, after docking at a starbase, and then threatened someone in the local tavern. It kind of reminded me of a primitive Elite Dangerous in places.
I completely missed the BBS era, so this is something to hear about.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
He's dead yes, but what happens to the timeline INSIDE the temporal shields? Temporal shields seem to protect the enclosed space from external changes to the timeline, but it's highly unclear how they would work against internal changes.
The problem is that while temporal shields need to be external to the timeline to work, the fact that they can be raised and lowered means they are still on some level stuck within the timeline. So what happens when I go back in time and alter the timeline within the shields? Or if I go back in time and prevent the shields from being raised in the first place?
Really, it's the fundamental problem of trying to make sense of a time travel story when the players can travel through time to any arbitrary point.
No not really. It's a portable timeline. Killing Noye inside of them would result in him dead. If the shields go down, then when the Annorax reintegrates into the timeline, since Noye no longer exists outside of the timeship, his death reintegrates. However with the Timeship it's a bit different, canonically, the Temporal Core is what insulates it from timeline changes, not temporal shields, that was a technology Voyager in that timeline developed.
Now if he's killed in a time frame before he entered the ship like 2409, then he dies inside, and lives outside normally.
This is probably the least complicated bit of time travel tech. Inside of the temporal shield is not outside of time. It is a portable self contained bubble of the original space-timeline where the ship was created and the temporal shield activated. It is frozen meaning he doesn't age that we know of.
The problem that creates is that it means the temporal shields (or the shielding effect of the temporal core, if you prefer) can be easily bypassed.
We know the Annorax was parked at the research station when we went to confront Noye the first time. So all we need to do is go back in time again, board the Annorax, and punch out Noye when he tries to make his getaway.
Boom, storyline over and we still have time for breakfast at Milliways.
By the way here is another bit of fact that they missed and didn't explain. Without specifically modifying weapons and shields to deal with it, the ship under Annorax's original design should basically be immune to attack. Now since we built it, it makes sense that we would know how to damage it, but the Borg at Romulus shouldn't have been able to damage it at all. It would bear mention if the Borg could bypass Temporal phase shielding.
It seems likely the Borg have the technology to drain temporal phase shielding. Beyond their signature ability to analyze and adapt, they have also demonstrated superior time travel capability. I don't see a problem with them being able to wear down the Annorax in a sustained engagement.
That said, it's not clear that the Annorax has the same impenetrable shields in the first place. The original ship did, but the new version was a rush job made from potentially incomplete notes. It may have had to settle for more rudimentary protection, similar to Voyager's temporal shielding.
Oh heavens, way too complex isn't it? Can't have that. These designers can't even have the Merc upper uniform work on female NPCs (wasted Zen there) so they certainly can't have multiple outcome options within a single mission let along multiple missions. That's never been done in a MMO.
Actually, Cryptic did that in City of Heroes.
Check your sarcasm meter, I think it need to be calibrated.
The whole point of my reply was to list just a few of the many things done in MMOs over the years that STO decided was too much for them. It's like they don't even try, they only attempt to keep the game going for another month. The result is an STO that has become ever more railroaded, with ever poorer storylines, and fewer reasons to play today then there were yesterday.
heh, vaguely reminds me of this old game called Curved spaces. Haven't played it in years, but my favorite trick there was to collapse all the warp points going in and out of the system I was in when I logged off. :P Needless to say I always kept a few thingies to open more when I came back.
He's dead yes, but what happens to the timeline INSIDE the temporal shields? Temporal shields seem to protect the enclosed space from external changes to the timeline, but it's highly unclear how they would work against internal changes.
The problem is that while temporal shields need to be external to the timeline to work, the fact that they can be raised and lowered means they are still on some level stuck within the timeline. So what happens when I go back in time and alter the timeline within the shields? Or if I go back in time and prevent the shields from being raised in the first place?
Really, it's the fundamental problem of trying to make sense of a time travel story when the players can travel through time to any arbitrary point.
No not really. It's a portable timeline. Killing Noye inside of them would result in him dead. If the shields go down, then when the Annorax reintegrates into the timeline, since Noye no longer exists outside of the timeship, his death reintegrates. However with the Timeship it's a bit different, canonically, the Temporal Core is what insulates it from timeline changes, not temporal shields, that was a technology Voyager in that timeline developed.
Now if he's killed in a time frame before he entered the ship like 2409, then he dies inside, and lives outside normally.
This is probably the least complicated bit of time travel tech. Inside of the temporal shield is not outside of time. It is a portable self contained bubble of the original space-timeline where the ship was created and the temporal shield activated. It is frozen meaning he doesn't age that we know of.
The problem that creates is that it means the temporal shields (or the shielding effect of the temporal core, if you prefer) can be easily bypassed.
We know the Annorax was parked at the research station when we went to confront Noye the first time. So all we need to do is go back in time again, board the Annorax, and punch out Noye when he tries to make his getaway.
Boom, storyline over and we still have time for breakfast at Milliways.
By the way here is another bit of fact that they missed and didn't explain. Without specifically modifying weapons and shields to deal with it, the ship under Annorax's original design should basically be immune to attack. Now since we built it, it makes sense that we would know how to damage it, but the Borg at Romulus shouldn't have been able to damage it at all. It would bear mention if the Borg could bypass Temporal phase shielding.
It seems likely the Borg have the technology to drain temporal phase shielding. Beyond their signature ability to analyze and adapt, they have also demonstrated superior time travel capability. I don't see a problem with them being able to wear down the Annorax in a sustained engagement.
That said, it's not clear that the Annorax has the same impenetrable shields in the first place. The original ship did, but the new version was a rush job made from potentially incomplete notes. It may have had to settle for more rudimentary protection, similar to Voyager's temporal shielding.
-R
Good points both ways.
Until we do that though, we should probably raise our own temporal shielding. We don't want to be caught outside if he wipes something out of existence which is probably what it would really take for us to go back and time and try to intercept him.
There may be something we're overlooking. Noye hasn't made any critical timeline changes just yet, there's no necessity to actually TRIBBLE with the timeline any further by trying to beat him to the punch. On the other hand an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so it may be better to beat him to the punch. I guess that's temporal ethics though.
However, it would only be worthwhile to do that after we have dealt with the Noye already on the timeship, since we would only be creating an alternate timeline where he never caused trouble instead of eliminating the temporally phased one.
Also we should consider where he may be hiding. If he's in the Tuterian Sphere Builder's space, then even time may not reach him. Man that could be a real pain in the TRIBBLE.
I liked EVE better when they called it Trade Wars, back in the days of true dial-up BBS systems. Back then, "open PvP" was so brutal even EVE players couldn't handle it. There was literally no such thing as safety. When you logged out, you'd better make sure you had a stockpile of defenses and a good hiding spot, because anyone who came across you while you were offline could attack you and your automated defenses were all you had to rely on. You could come back and find your ship had been destroyed and all your resources looted and you'd have to start again with the beginner ship and try to build back up again.
That ahh...sounds like a nightmare. Killed in your sleep.
It gets worse. Only one person could play at a time because it was a true phone line connection, your computer to the host, so you got a set amount of play time every 24 hours and when your turns ran out you were done. So you had to keep an eye on things and make sure you didn't run out of turns before you got to a safe spot. And of course, by safe I mean somewhere out of the way nobody was likely to run across you. Travel cost turns though so you didn't want it to be -too- far out or you'd never get back to civilized areas with enough turns left to matter. The holy grail was to find some obscure sector only linked to one other out in the boonies but had a short set of jumps to get back to civilization --a semi-hidden cul-de-sac, if you will.
There's no way modern gamers could put up with it, but we did because it was all we had and so we learned to love it. It beat going outside.
When you mentioned it I managed to look up a guy's playthrough on Youtube. I noticed the turns counter, but didn't think it was so...strict. I thought it was just til game over. The truth is actually much worse. I also noticed while the game was compiling the limited number of one way and two way warps. Fascinating. The guy also watched a Star Trek parody film, haggled over fuel prices, after docking at a starbase, and then threatened someone in the local tavern. It kind of reminded me of a primitive Elite Dangerous in places.
I completely missed the BBS era, so this is something to hear about.
Link me please? I'd like to see this video. It'd be cool to relive those old days.
And yeah, the game very much was a text-based version of the same concept as Elite, where you're a freelance freighter captain exploring an unknown galaxy and trying to find good deals. A typical game would involve either looking around through various sectors or making runs between ones you already knew. Ideally you'd buy commodities low from one planet and sell them high to another, and it was always a good find if you found two planets not a terribly high number of jumps away from each other that both were high in something the other needed because then you could make money on both legs of the trip. Once you found a good one you'd often spend entire sessions running back and forth making as many runs as you could squeeze in during your allotted turns. You'd then save your money you earned for ship upgrades and of course the always needed fighters because how many automated fighters you had in your swarm meant the difference between life and death should you end up in combat. Of course, the only time you ever encountered another player was when they were offline or when you found out about getting ganked while you were offline because only one person could play at a time. That was why limiting the time each player had was so important. You had x number of players wanting in and everyone had to wait their turn. We would learn to time how long a session should run, so we would know when to start spam dialing the system hoping to be the one to get through and dreading the evil sound of the busy signal. Sometimes you'd try all day long hoping to get through, and often the best strategy was to stay up until the wee hours and try to catch the line open while everyone else was asleep. You might go so far as to set your alarm to wake you up at what seemed like a good time, hoping no one else had the same idea. They often did.
It was rough, but again it was all we had. Something like STO would have seemed like a freaking miracle sent from the gods to us back then on our Commodore 64s.
I didn't watch the whole thing, but I was marveling at the detail.
I know some people don't like minutiae, but I can't help but think that a few details like in those games would help this game. I don't mean turning it into a sim, but just make things more...specific in places. I keep thinking Cryptic should be working on STO2 in a back closet with the time frame to do it right this time, slowly sucking up ideas we've put up over the years. Wishful thinking I know.
As someone who has actually played on a Commodore and Atari when I was a kid, it's been...REALLY fun watching video games evolve. Six Generations of consoles, watching PC games go from text based to text based with visuals I'm looking at you Oregon Trail and Carmen Sandiego, to Wolfenstein and DOOM, Quake, etc... Looking back it's amazing what we did with so little back then.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
As someone who has actually played on a Commodore and Atari when I was a kid, it's been...REALLY fun watching video games evolve. Six Generations of consoles, watching PC games go from text based to text based with visuals I'm looking at you Oregon Trail and Carmen Sandiego, to Wolfenstein and DOOM, Quake, etc... Looking back it's amazing what we did with so little back then.
I find it more amazing how little we do with all we have now.
As someone who has actually played on a Commodore and Atari when I was a kid, it's been...REALLY fun watching video games evolve. Six Generations of consoles, watching PC games go from text based to text based with visuals I'm looking at you Oregon Trail and Carmen Sandiego, to Wolfenstein and DOOM, Quake, etc... Looking back it's amazing what we did with so little back then.
I find it more amazing how little we do with all we have now.
That's deep Drake.
Though I think it's changing. The thinking on what can be done in games is starting to catch up with the new capabilities.
We've had to go through phases of learning. We still are. Just because we have the technology doesn't mean we know how to use it properly...yet.
North Korea is still here, too. We lost. Only one Iconian died. How many did the Coalition lose?
We're not under the control of North Korea or the Iconians, so not sure what your point is.
My point is that the Coalition didn't win the Iconian war, anymore than the US won the Korean war. No treaty was signed, no restitutions were made, and from an attrition standpoint, the Coalition was on the wrong end of a thorough drubbing. Hell, one of the bad guys even said it was going to go on fighting.
Another case of Starfleet disregarding the needs of the many due to one captain's personal, moral, objections. The option to waste the Iconians in the past really should have been an option.
I think there is a treaty in place, a singular agreement between the Iconians and the Coalition, they agree to go away and not bother anyone again, and we agree to leave them alone.
Well that's one way of looking at it. But to be a Starfleet Captain has always meant you're going to be the one alone in the field, against the unknown, and you're given the authority to make major decisions that could affect all of Starfleet/Earth/The Federation's interest with little to no support. They select the Captains with those strong moral personal characteristics so that they will have someone trustworthy to make the call when the committee isn't available for consultation. Of curious note, with a Starfleet Captain and Kagran there, they had two command level officers representing two out of the three primary factions of the Alliance present to make the call.
And the moral judgment here was do nothing, participate in genocide, or take a third option.
As far as the needs of the many there are two ways to look at it. First the helping the Iconians thing was working until Sela chose to complete the mission (and failed to kill her soul mate T'Khet), that's what switched it to the present as we know it.
More pertinent, we don't actually know what would've happened if we had gone the "Renegade" route, so I agree with you, the "bad" option should've been shown. It would've been curious if things had turned out worse requiring us to...go back and fix it? Intercepting ourselves? That would be messy. It would've been a nice early cameo for Captain Walker if he had to come back and help us correct our mistake.
Technically, no. The moral judgement was to take no action, or destroy an enemy that is committing genocide. Destroying an enemy who is trying to destroy you isn't genocide, it's self defense.
Helping the Iconians was not an option because of Sela. It was not an option because the rest of the galaxy attacked the Iconians out of jealousy, greed, and avarice. At that point T'ket was going to start taking revenge no matter what, it even said so.
We should have gone farther back in time and wasted whomever the firebrands were that advocated attacking Iconia in the first place. This is why time travel isn't a very good mechanic for storytelling. Not only for the paradoxes that are created, but because there is no beginning or end, and things can always be done differently, depending on how far back, or ahead, you go.
Curiously, Starfleet never sends anyone back in time to stop the Eugenics War. Kill Khan as a child and save the lives of millions.
That I suppose is a question of personal morality. The Prime Directive is clear, non-interference in events, and the Temporal Prime Directive is the same. So by the book, you're correct. It's a matter of whether or not you can personally stand by and watch who are at that time defenseless people get slaughtered.
There is a calculated risk at the decision itself. Our Captain could've been calculating that the Iconians would remember our kindness and intervention, instead of it just being a personal do the right thing. A plan that Sela of course promptly throws in the trash because she can't see past the end of her own nose. Fitting for the girl who got her own mother killed.
Actually Sela is the to use a Star Wars term, Shatterpoint. The Iconians are intelligent enough to know that the races that came after and the races in the present are not the same. Sela's actions turned the rage squarely to us. Her actions also deprived them of the World Heart, their entire civilization. So they defaulted back to survival. Notice that as soon as they had the World Heart back they immediately dropped the war (T'Khet is an anomaly apparently she was always an TRIBBLE$hole, her and Sela are actually soul mates). With the World Heart they could literally rebuild everything that they lost except the people. I suppose it also metaphorically represents their heart. They lost their heart and became cruel, and we returned it to them and they found their mercy again. Back on subject.
Keeping the peaceful Iconians in power? That's one heck of a temporal change. It would also have required significant planning. We're talking about taking down every major power of the Iconian's time. Seems unfeasible to me.
And I agree. Please understand I work from a Watsonian perspective usually. From a Doylist perspective I despise time travel except as a purely passive research tool.
Killing Khan? Not so sure that's a good idea. He was, "The Best of the Tyrants". I think the implication is that Khan actually took down even worse elements of the Eugenics War as he was the most civilized of them. I imagine that without his presence, the Eugenics Wars may have been worse. In the same way that Saddam Hussein was a check on Iran's power and kept terrorists out of his country, but was still a brutal TRIBBLE.
I would also place it in the same vein as the assassinate Hitler question. Without World War II we would not have had the massive upsurge in American military and economic strength that occurred. There was lack of impetus. Without the German and Jewish scientists that he chased out of the country we may not have developed practical nuclear science, at least not on that time frame. Without those German scientists no ballistic missiles, so the moon shot is dramatically set back if we ever go the space travel route at all. You could delay the space age by half a century. Worse as a timeline, you would remove Hitler, but Stalin is still there, so you could end up in a world where the Soviet Union becomes the great conquering state of the age, with no Germany for them to grind blood and flesh against.
On that same note, I have a theory that the genetically enhanced intellect of the augments and the struggle to stop them, actually created avenues of science that led directly to Zephram Cochrane having the scientific base to invent warp drive. Fusion power actually preceded warp drive in the Star Trek timeline. Sometimes our mistakes lead directly to our triumphs.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Comments
1- I figure our captains are in a new timeline at this point and even the temporal agents have gotten caught up in it unawares.
2- This being based on a Voyager plot means that everything will reset at the end. Probably by Janeway crashing into the Annorax again.
She's just going to show up and push you out of the way. That's how she rolls.
Regardless of how it plays out: It was just the set up to a longer story line. Even the nigh infallible Picard dropped the ball from time to time and the episode was him fixing that up. Wait until the actual story happens, sillies.
I think the flash was Noye's arrival. But the scary part is that we don't know what Sphere Builder tech Noye now has on his ship.... It seems to be not as good as the original in several ways, but also it might be better in some ways.
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
in STO ? yes , if i remember correct even as klingon i must "set weapons to heavy stun" in "Everything Old is New"
in cannon ?
i suppose klingons dont have ANY non-lethal weapons
in fact Phaser is in theory hi-tech taser , so stun setting is possible
but plasma or disruptor work at completly different basis ............
so just another light fail from Cryptic when we must play FED-based missions .....and here litte joke from me
You mean like Raids or Boss fights when you have individual NPCs and sometimes even multiples thereof which are far more powerful than any single PC? And that require actual teamwork to overcome?
You're right such things have NEVER existed in the MMO world, no one would play. Let's try another option.
How about making it so that winning requires different approaches against different foes such that as players we have to adapter and change out our gear?
What's that you say? You did the grinding for that gear and are happy with your build and you want it to best all comings with a single press of a space bar? Of course, you're right- no one would play if it didn't work this way. Besides, no MMO has ever done this.
How about the storyline admits that our ships are better than our foes but give them other storyline advantages like vast numbers (so we can't win everywhere- and make us pick where we do fight and don't fight). Or maybe make them really sneaky where we have to select what we protect and don't protect. And show us the results of our choices good and bad.
Oh heavens, way too complex isn't it? Can't have that. These designers can't even have the Merc upper uniform work on female NPCs (wasted Zen there) so they certainly can't have multiple outcome options within a single mission let along multiple missions. That's never been done in a MMO.
How about a story line that just doesn't use higher tech foes at all. Just don't mention it.
Wait, you want to be told you're doing wonderful and beating the odds even when you aren't? You need that to feel good about yourself? Well then, you have the perfect game.
EVE is over there --->
I think there is a treaty in place, a singular agreement between the Iconians and the Coalition, they agree to go away and not bother anyone again, and we agree to leave them alone.
Well that's one way of looking at it. But to be a Starfleet Captain has always meant you're going to be the one alone in the field, against the unknown, and you're given the authority to make major decisions that could affect all of Starfleet/Earth/The Federation's interest with little to no support. They select the Captains with those strong moral personal characteristics so that they will have someone trustworthy to make the call when the committee isn't available for consultation. Of curious note, with a Starfleet Captain and Kagran there, they had two command level officers representing two out of the three primary factions of the Alliance present to make the call.
And the moral judgment here was do nothing, participate in genocide, or take a third option.
As far as the needs of the many there are two ways to look at it. First the helping the Iconians thing was working until Sela chose to complete the mission (and failed to kill her soul mate T'Khet), that's what switched it to the present as we know it.
More pertinent, we don't actually know what would've happened if we had gone the "Renegade" route, so I agree with you, the "bad" option should've been shown. It would've been curious if things had turned out worse requiring us to...go back and fix it? Intercepting ourselves? That would be messy. It would've been a nice early cameo for Captain Walker if he had to come back and help us correct our mistake.
1. Walker specifically stated that this wasn't actually supposed to happen and we're in his past still. So yes.
2. I don't need Janeway to trash a Temporal Weapons ship for me.
Well, no. Phasers aren't related to lasers at all really. Just the same naming scheme.
Phasers are actually more closely related to disruptors and coherent plasma beams, not that that invalidates what you said.
And I was joking initially as well.
My character Tsin'xing
he said 'taser', not 'laser'; but phasers definitely aren't in any way related to tasers any more than they are to lasers
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Ha silly me, so he did. Maybe I should zoom in a bit, the font got me.
But the stun is a high tech taser yeah, but tasers don't have a vaporize setting either.
No it's a horrible example. it was a self contained timeline created by an omnipotent being, and as real and relevant an example of time travel as dropping the crew into a Robin Hood fantasy.
EVE combat is even more boring than this games. I'm hoping open world PvP doesn't kill Star Citizen, if it does than it will be The Division for me for the foreseeable future.
I keep saying, I want Temporal Investigations to turn up and then we find out Janeway is now in charge of it and is developing a timeship program present day. It would be a very organic development of her character arc and at the same time would explain how reckless or at least less cautious we are now with time travel.
In universe, almost nobody is more qualified. From a fan perspective, it's one of those things that both caters to her fans and the people who hate her.
Kinda like my old, "Make Mirror Wesley the Terran Emperor and have him be deliciously evil, excessively competent, immature, and petty." Because that, also, would cater to both Wesley's fans and detractors. Plus, Wheaton seems to prefer playing bad guys.
Actually, Cryptic did that in City of Heroes.
That ahh...sounds like a nightmare. Killed in your sleep.
When you mentioned it I managed to look up a guy's playthrough on Youtube. I noticed the turns counter, but didn't think it was so...strict. I thought it was just til game over. The truth is actually much worse. I also noticed while the game was compiling the limited number of one way and two way warps. Fascinating. The guy also watched a Star Trek parody film, haggled over fuel prices, after docking at a starbase, and then threatened someone in the local tavern. It kind of reminded me of a primitive Elite Dangerous in places.
I completely missed the BBS era, so this is something to hear about.
The problem that creates is that it means the temporal shields (or the shielding effect of the temporal core, if you prefer) can be easily bypassed.
We know the Annorax was parked at the research station when we went to confront Noye the first time. So all we need to do is go back in time again, board the Annorax, and punch out Noye when he tries to make his getaway.
Boom, storyline over and we still have time for breakfast at Milliways.
It seems likely the Borg have the technology to drain temporal phase shielding. Beyond their signature ability to analyze and adapt, they have also demonstrated superior time travel capability. I don't see a problem with them being able to wear down the Annorax in a sustained engagement.
That said, it's not clear that the Annorax has the same impenetrable shields in the first place. The original ship did, but the new version was a rush job made from potentially incomplete notes. It may have had to settle for more rudimentary protection, similar to Voyager's temporal shielding.
-R
Check your sarcasm meter, I think it need to be calibrated.
The whole point of my reply was to list just a few of the many things done in MMOs over the years that STO decided was too much for them. It's like they don't even try, they only attempt to keep the game going for another month. The result is an STO that has become ever more railroaded, with ever poorer storylines, and fewer reasons to play today then there were yesterday.
My character Tsin'xing
Good points both ways.
Until we do that though, we should probably raise our own temporal shielding. We don't want to be caught outside if he wipes something out of existence which is probably what it would really take for us to go back and time and try to intercept him.
There may be something we're overlooking. Noye hasn't made any critical timeline changes just yet, there's no necessity to actually TRIBBLE with the timeline any further by trying to beat him to the punch. On the other hand an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so it may be better to beat him to the punch. I guess that's temporal ethics though.
However, it would only be worthwhile to do that after we have dealt with the Noye already on the timeship, since we would only be creating an alternate timeline where he never caused trouble instead of eliminating the temporally phased one.
Also we should consider where he may be hiding. If he's in the Tuterian Sphere Builder's space, then even time may not reach him. Man that could be a real pain in the TRIBBLE.
Sphh, I got you. Not even a problem.
I didn't watch the whole thing, but I was marveling at the detail.
I know some people don't like minutiae, but I can't help but think that a few details like in those games would help this game. I don't mean turning it into a sim, but just make things more...specific in places. I keep thinking Cryptic should be working on STO2 in a back closet with the time frame to do it right this time, slowly sucking up ideas we've put up over the years. Wishful thinking I know.
As someone who has actually played on a Commodore and Atari when I was a kid, it's been...REALLY fun watching video games evolve. Six Generations of consoles, watching PC games go from text based to text based with visuals I'm looking at you Oregon Trail and Carmen Sandiego, to Wolfenstein and DOOM, Quake, etc... Looking back it's amazing what we did with so little back then.
I find it more amazing how little we do with all we have now.
Though I think it's changing. The thinking on what can be done in games is starting to catch up with the new capabilities.
We've had to go through phases of learning. We still are. Just because we have the technology doesn't mean we know how to use it properly...yet.
That I suppose is a question of personal morality. The Prime Directive is clear, non-interference in events, and the Temporal Prime Directive is the same. So by the book, you're correct. It's a matter of whether or not you can personally stand by and watch who are at that time defenseless people get slaughtered.
There is a calculated risk at the decision itself. Our Captain could've been calculating that the Iconians would remember our kindness and intervention, instead of it just being a personal do the right thing. A plan that Sela of course promptly throws in the trash because she can't see past the end of her own nose. Fitting for the girl who got her own mother killed.
Actually Sela is the to use a Star Wars term, Shatterpoint. The Iconians are intelligent enough to know that the races that came after and the races in the present are not the same. Sela's actions turned the rage squarely to us. Her actions also deprived them of the World Heart, their entire civilization. So they defaulted back to survival. Notice that as soon as they had the World Heart back they immediately dropped the war (T'Khet is an anomaly apparently she was always an TRIBBLE$hole, her and Sela are actually soul mates). With the World Heart they could literally rebuild everything that they lost except the people. I suppose it also metaphorically represents their heart. They lost their heart and became cruel, and we returned it to them and they found their mercy again. Back on subject.
Keeping the peaceful Iconians in power? That's one heck of a temporal change. It would also have required significant planning. We're talking about taking down every major power of the Iconian's time. Seems unfeasible to me.
And I agree. Please understand I work from a Watsonian perspective usually. From a Doylist perspective I despise time travel except as a purely passive research tool.
Killing Khan? Not so sure that's a good idea. He was, "The Best of the Tyrants". I think the implication is that Khan actually took down even worse elements of the Eugenics War as he was the most civilized of them. I imagine that without his presence, the Eugenics Wars may have been worse. In the same way that Saddam Hussein was a check on Iran's power and kept terrorists out of his country, but was still a brutal TRIBBLE.
I would also place it in the same vein as the assassinate Hitler question. Without World War II we would not have had the massive upsurge in American military and economic strength that occurred. There was lack of impetus. Without the German and Jewish scientists that he chased out of the country we may not have developed practical nuclear science, at least not on that time frame. Without those German scientists no ballistic missiles, so the moon shot is dramatically set back if we ever go the space travel route at all. You could delay the space age by half a century. Worse as a timeline, you would remove Hitler, but Stalin is still there, so you could end up in a world where the Soviet Union becomes the great conquering state of the age, with no Germany for them to grind blood and flesh against.
On that same note, I have a theory that the genetically enhanced intellect of the augments and the struggle to stop them, actually created avenues of science that led directly to Zephram Cochrane having the scientific base to invent warp drive. Fusion power actually preceded warp drive in the Star Trek timeline. Sometimes our mistakes lead directly to our triumphs.