Agreed entirely. NO game which has both PVE and PVP can expect both to remain healthy without seperating the mechanics.
That's not true: Separating the mechanics IS what produces poor health. The entire reason PvP works poorly in STO is because NPCs and players aren't playing the same game. NPCs have millions of hitpoints, players do not. Therefore, anything which works effectively on NPCs tend to be massively overkill when you only have to plow through about 100K HP instead of about 10M HP. It is these separated mechanics that produce the poor health of the system.
Well that's another way to handle it. To be fair your idea of allowing NPCs to come closer to players in terms of design and power is the superior one, but that's not likely to happen sadly.
When I was talking about seperated mechanics I meant having Player powers sometimes function differently in PVP situations.
There would of course, be no need for this if players and NPCs worked in a more similar fashion.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
FBP is terrifying when done right but it still requires some poor fool to shoot you in the first place. Maybe we should focus on the real problem, tactical captains using science and engineering damage skills better the other classes using identical specs.
APA should be limited to conventional weapons, if you think about a gravity well for example, it's primary function is to pull things in, the damage really is incidental, why should any +dmg ability boost this? (With the exception of particle gens, although in GWs case it really should be grav gens that boost the damage) Obviously resist reducing powers should increase the damage from it but again, that's not a direct class specific thing.
Once that issue is fixed, then we can choose realistic starting damage numbers and modifiers for the skill table, etc.
On the subject of PvE vs PvP mechanics, I've said it before, I'll say it again: If PvE AI was made to follow the most basic rules of STO gameplay and NPC builds made to the most basic standards of ship builds with the same capabilities of it's playable version (including HP stats) then PvE would be almost exactly as balanced as PvP, then you could balance everything for PvP and PvE would sort itself out.
Agreed entirely. NO game which has both PVE and PVP can expect both to remain healthy without seperating the mechanics.
That's not true: Separating the mechanics IS what produces poor health. The entire reason PvP works poorly in STO is because NPCs and players aren't playing the same game. NPCs have millions of hitpoints, players do not. Therefore, anything which works effectively on NPCs tend to be massively overkill when you only have to plow through about 100K HP instead of about 10M HP. It is these separated mechanics that produce the poor health of the system.
Well that's another way to handle it. To be fair your idea of allowing NPCs to come closer to players in terms of design and power is the superior one, but that's not likely to happen sadly.
When I was talking about seperated mechanics I meant having Player powers sometimes function differently in PVP situations.
There would of course, be no need for this if players and NPCs worked in a more similar fashion.
I've never seen a game that did and the problem seems to be learning curve. IE, if AIs even had half the capability of players the Mirror invasion would be unwinnable on normal for most builds.
well ... most ppl that say that pvp is broken and try arena, they dont reroute shields, they dont use science team to clear subnuke, they dont use rock and roll to avoid alpha strikes, they dont respect target calling, they dont heal mates, that kind of simple stuff... pvp is much harder than pve you need to admit it, most ppl just wont care anymore after they try arena and die in seconds
PvP is a mess, but it's equally a mess on both sides of things. You get one hit kill blazing speed escorts with debuff clearing like crazy and part gens boats dishing out TBR like if it were FAW, ISO cannon super hita, and using FBP to avoid said one hit kill ships.
Science has been nerfed to death already. What needs to be controlled is DPS and debuff clearing. After the DPS gets curbed, maybe we can talk about part gens damage.
Eh it's pvp so really who cares? PVP has been broken for ages. Seriously you want to save PVP well here is how. Petition Cryptic to limit the ships to Tier 3 and gear level to say Level 5 across the board. Then it's game of skill not who has the deeper wallets. This would also elimanate the "power creep" that PVPers are always crying about. Easy way to do this is to move PVP onto redshirt and leave it there as a seperate enitity that has no effect at all on the majority who just do PVE.
One last thing Nerfing things because PVPers are crying about balence is a BIG MISTAKE as it carries the nerf into PVE where NPC's have massive HPs and shields. So yeah keep crying for balence PVPers and watch the majority who play PVe just walk away in disgust over the nerf's so STO becomes another ghost game like WOW dead and just flopping along. Instead of crying for nerf's to "balence" PVP maybe suggest a better fix like I posted earlier.
One last thing Nerfing things because PVPers are crying about balence is a BIG MISTAKE as it carries the nerf into PVE where NPC's have massive HPs and shields. So yeah keep crying for balence PVPers and watch the majority who play PVe just walk away in disgust over the nerf's so STO becomes another ghost game like WOW dead and just flopping along. Instead of crying for nerf's to "balence" PVP maybe suggest a better fix like I posted earlier.
"Meh" the actual event of people leaving STO after Delta Rising occurred, yet STO is still here.
Agreed entirely. NO game which has both PVE and PVP can expect both to remain healthy without seperating the mechanics.
That's not true: Separating the mechanics IS what produces poor health. The entire reason PvP works poorly in STO is because NPCs and players aren't playing the same game. NPCs have millions of hitpoints, players do not. Therefore, anything which works effectively on NPCs tend to be massively overkill when you only have to plow through about 100K HP instead of about 10M HP. It is these separated mechanics that produce the poor health of the system.
This is true. However, scaling back DPS will only create a lot of backlash. But for PVP to work again, PVP and PVE should be unified somehow. My thoughts are to make a "reverse DR" change:
Scale up player hull and shield HPs. This will make player HPs more in-line with NPC HPs and will remove insta-vapes from PVP. It'll extend battles which I think would be good (because in Star Trek, ship vs ship battles took time given equal ships).
To balance-out higher hull and shield HPs, increase NPC DPS. Just like in DR, give NPCs a bit of power creep. Maybe double their damage output. The total NPC damage output in ISA seems to be in the 4k range (based on my tanking runs where I got most of the aggro) so moving the total DPS from NPCs in a map to 8-10k with inflated player HPs would make sense.
Keep heal values unchanged. With higher player HPs and lower comparative heals, you'll be fighting a fight where your HP is slowly being whittled down. The fight would be all about who can gain an advantage either by mitigating an opponent's damage output, or out-debuffing your opponent. Healing will be less about restoring hull points and more about damage control. In the shows ships don't magically return to pristine shape in the middle of a battle. They kept the ship going through damage control and keeping the ship operational as best they can.
Immunities have to go. Change them to DR buffs (even very high DR buffs) or Defense buffs (for pilot maneuvers and rock and roll for example) to make players harder to hit. With higher HPs, there is no need for immunities. You can still use DR or defensive buffs to swing a fight your way (since you won't be able to outheal damage anyway).
I think higher HPs and trading fire/debuffs while working on damage control (instead of healing) and team buffing would make for a more interesting PVP dynamic. That would get me into it at least.
Lotro had different stats from armor that only affected characters in the PvP (Monster Play) area. There was another ranking system of stats that provided buffs while you were in the Ettenmoors. There were PVE Quests in that area that provided Rewards useful for the area.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
There is a guy in my fleet who has ONE SHOT people in PvP for 645k damage that ignores shields... so yeah, something needs to be done.
What needs to be done is for players to finally accept STO is not a PvP game... The devs have said so themselves. I am not sure why people keep poking the dead horse, it's kinda weird.
There is no surrender, only honourable death in glorious battle! You of all people should know this, "former KDF minister of propaganda".
The biggest problem that PvP has is lazy PvE. Players are so used to not having to think when they're in combat so the minute anyone tries to change things for the better there will be massive complaints and backlash because their 70k+ DPS build's have become useless.
Someone posted earlier or on another thread that if the AI was half as good as veteran PvPer the average player would not be able to cope.
PvP has become a cesspit for gankers and cheese wielding surrender monkeys who can't fight without the current meta. This is the game the Devs have created, the game PvErs always wanted, it's not Star Trek because Star Trek had conflict, especially with the Klingons who were always changing their minds and interests but now it seems they are the new Feds (yes cryptic is slowly killing them too), so why complain now?
What is the point? What are you going to achieve? Years of begging and constructive criticism (it's what the Devs humbly requested) achieved nothing. The Devs responded by giving us DR the final nail in the coffin for interesting space combat.
Stop complaining and enjoy the unbalanced and insane power creep filled game you wanted and asked for.
There is a guy in my fleet who has ONE SHOT people in PvP for 645k damage that ignores shields... so yeah, something needs to be done.
What needs to be done is for players to finally accept STO is not a PvP game... The devs have said so themselves. I am not sure why people keep poking the dead horse, it's kinda weird.
There is no surrender, only honourable death in glorious battle! You of all people should know this, "former KDF minister of propaganda".
Guile is important too.
It is indeed when there is something to gained by it, in this case the only thing to be gained from the use of guile is PvP's removal from the game.
My point is : easy and simple. You are proposing PvP-focused large scale revamps which make no sense since devs stated that they are not interested into the pvp aspect . Therefore I propose something simple and good which may even be tested and see how it goes : when you enter a pvp map, you get a certain amount of shield/hp buff . Without nerfing anything used by PvE guys ( heck, I am also a PvE hero and a good one lol ) Is this something easy which can be done in a dev's spare time ?
There is a guy in my fleet who has ONE SHOT people in PvP for 645k damage that ignores shields... so yeah, something needs to be done.
What needs to be done is for players to finally accept STO is not a PvP game... The devs have said so themselves. I am not sure why people keep poking the dead horse, it's kinda weird.
There is no surrender, only honourable death in glorious battle! You of all people should know this, "former KDF minister of propaganda".
The "only" solution to this is make all the ships in the game play by the same rules. PvE and PvP.. same rules.
Of course that change would be a massive undertaking and 99% of the content would need to be trimmed down.. no more "soloing" 5 ships in PvE encounter... as those 5 ships would waste you.
It would be a major paradigm shift... and would probably result in a massive loss of sales as "new" players constantly struggle to make it through the content.
And "keep it casual and simple " could be the keyword for a vanilla pvp comeback. Not something big, a huge project officially announced on the forums ( which affected even the exchange prices btw lol ) . What I have in mind is something casual, like a party popping up among friends … no need of a dedicated channel … Opvp might work fine or, alternatively, we just tell each other with a simple " vanilla ?" and he might reply " toon " . Best example given, my fleet is having a Xmas vanilla pvp match tomorrow . Then, of course, if you feel like it, you may always queue up also for a regular arena : the keyword is inclusive, not exclusive.
It would be a major paradigm shift... and would probably result in a massive loss of sales as "new" players constantly struggle to make it through the content.
I would welcome such an undertaking and support it fully.
Sure many players would leave or be put off, but I predict the end results to be well worth it at least from my point of view: attract competent players who enjoy a challenge, fewer who are absolutely clueless about anything without the slightest bit of interest to learn and apply themselves (puggers will know what I mean), trinity classes and ship types might finally play a role, cooperation (the multiplayer part of MMO), PvP which never gets old unlike scripted predictable AI-based content, real enemy NPCs as they should be not inflated hit points under timer conditions (delta rising), rewarding gameplay where success is not guaranteed but requires a combination of skill, team interaction, strategy, experience, and decent gear and builds not all of which are about DPS only.
The "only" solution to this is make all the ships in the game play by the same rules. PvE and PvP.. same rules.
Of course that change would be a massive undertaking and 99% of the content would need to be trimmed down.. no more "soloing" 5 ships in PvE encounter... as those 5 ships would waste you.
It would be a major paradigm shift... and would probably result in a massive loss of sales as "new" players constantly struggle to make it through the content.
I've often argued we should be facing far fewer enemy ships. Space battles should feel more like boss fights and mini bosses rather than mowing down mobs.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I'm inclined to agree, I think a game wide rebalance would be a great next step for our developer team to address many issues all at once and set a clear plan for the future to prevent things getting out of hand again.
This would have a side effect of greatly improving PVP without necessitating spending any resources directly on it. Although they could accompany the rebalance by separating PVE and PVP mechanics but that wouldn't have to be done at the same time.
Comments
Seriously, though, it's no different from having to deal with Voth Deflection sh*t: pay a little attention to what the other is doing.
It's weird that people always want to do that in a game genre that's designed for co-op from the get go.
Like MOBAs don't exist.
Well that's another way to handle it. To be fair your idea of allowing NPCs to come closer to players in terms of design and power is the superior one, but that's not likely to happen sadly.
When I was talking about seperated mechanics I meant having Player powers sometimes function differently in PVP situations.
There would of course, be no need for this if players and NPCs worked in a more similar fashion.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
APA should be limited to conventional weapons, if you think about a gravity well for example, it's primary function is to pull things in, the damage really is incidental, why should any +dmg ability boost this? (With the exception of particle gens, although in GWs case it really should be grav gens that boost the damage) Obviously resist reducing powers should increase the damage from it but again, that's not a direct class specific thing.
Once that issue is fixed, then we can choose realistic starting damage numbers and modifiers for the skill table, etc.
On the subject of PvE vs PvP mechanics, I've said it before, I'll say it again: If PvE AI was made to follow the most basic rules of STO gameplay and NPC builds made to the most basic standards of ship builds with the same capabilities of it's playable version (including HP stats) then PvE would be almost exactly as balanced as PvP, then you could balance everything for PvP and PvE would sort itself out.
My character Tsin'xing
Science has been nerfed to death already. What needs to be controlled is DPS and debuff clearing. After the DPS gets curbed, maybe we can talk about part gens damage.
"Meh" the actual event of people leaving STO after Delta Rising occurred, yet STO is still here.
[yt]
This is true. However, scaling back DPS will only create a lot of backlash. But for PVP to work again, PVP and PVE should be unified somehow. My thoughts are to make a "reverse DR" change:
I think higher HPs and trading fire/debuffs while working on damage control (instead of healing) and team buffing would make for a more interesting PVP dynamic. That would get me into it at least.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
There is no surrender, only honourable death in glorious battle! You of all people should know this, "former KDF minister of propaganda".
Someone posted earlier or on another thread that if the AI was half as good as veteran PvPer the average player would not be able to cope.
PvP has become a cesspit for gankers and cheese wielding surrender monkeys who can't fight without the current meta. This is the game the Devs have created, the game PvErs always wanted, it's not Star Trek because Star Trek had conflict, especially with the Klingons who were always changing their minds and interests but now it seems they are the new Feds (yes cryptic is slowly killing them too), so why complain now?
What is the point? What are you going to achieve?
Years of begging and constructive criticism (it's what the Devs humbly requested) achieved nothing. The Devs responded by giving us DR the final nail in the coffin for interesting space combat.
Stop complaining and enjoy the unbalanced and insane power creep filled game you wanted and asked for.
It is indeed when there is something to gained by it, in this case the only thing to be gained from the use of guile is PvP's removal from the game.
You are proposing PvP-focused large scale revamps which make no sense since devs stated that they are not interested into the pvp aspect .
Therefore I propose something simple and good which may even be tested and see how it goes : when you enter a pvp map, you get a certain amount of shield/hp buff .
Without nerfing anything used by PvE guys ( heck, I am also a PvE hero and a good one lol )
Is this something easy which can be done in a dev's spare time ?
Indeed. He has this pretty sweet Flash Kick!
Of course that change would be a massive undertaking and 99% of the content would need to be trimmed down.. no more "soloing" 5 ships in PvE encounter... as those 5 ships would waste you.
It would be a major paradigm shift... and would probably result in a massive loss of sales as "new" players constantly struggle to make it through the content.
Not something big, a huge project officially announced on the forums ( which affected even the exchange prices btw lol ) .
What I have in mind is something casual, like a party popping up among friends … no need of a dedicated channel … Opvp might work fine or, alternatively, we just tell each other with a simple " vanilla ?" and he might reply " toon " .
Best example given, my fleet is having a Xmas vanilla pvp match tomorrow .
Then, of course, if you feel like it, you may always queue up also for a regular arena : the keyword is inclusive, not exclusive.
I would welcome such an undertaking and support it fully.
Sure many players would leave or be put off, but I predict the end results to be well worth it at least from my point of view: attract competent players who enjoy a challenge, fewer who are absolutely clueless about anything without the slightest bit of interest to learn and apply themselves (puggers will know what I mean), trinity classes and ship types might finally play a role, cooperation (the multiplayer part of MMO), PvP which never gets old unlike scripted predictable AI-based content, real enemy NPCs as they should be not inflated hit points under timer conditions (delta rising), rewarding gameplay where success is not guaranteed but requires a combination of skill, team interaction, strategy, experience, and decent gear and builds not all of which are about DPS only.
I've often argued we should be facing far fewer enemy ships. Space battles should feel more like boss fights and mini bosses rather than mowing down mobs.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
This would have a side effect of greatly improving PVP without necessitating spending any resources directly on it. Although they could accompany the rebalance by separating PVE and PVP mechanics but that wouldn't have to be done at the same time.