I can't help but be amused that despite all the observations in the forums these past years that the KDF and RR have been lacking in their ship selections, and ESPECIALLY in the science department, the writer of the article went out of their way to lament Starfleet's lack of science ships. That and the ship trait ends up being named Insult to Injury in the same article.
Someone mentioned that it doesn't have a LtC tactical boff seat or a universal one. 1) It's a science carrier... It has Commander science. Why? Because it's a starfleet carrier and that's what a starfleet carrier would have (at least as has been established in-game). 2) it's not a lock box ship (they are always better, in some way) 3) it's not a giveaway ship (Sarr Theln) they always have good stats for what they are.
I have to say, it doesn't look too bad, all things considered.
"Intelligence is finite, stupidity is infinite" -- Umberto Eco
My concern is the fighter. The basic looks very good, but the elite not so much. Maybe replace the dual phaser cannons with one from a reputation system and upgrade the torpedo?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
I can't help but be amused that despite all the observations in the forums these past years that the KDF and RR have been lacking in their ship selections, and ESPECIALLY in the science department, the writer of the article went out of their way to lament Starfleet's lack of science ships. That and the ship trait ends up being named Insult to Injury in the same article.
I agree with you on the supposed "Lack" of Fed Science ships. At T6 we've got the Pathfinder, Dauntless, and Scryer at least. Throw in the T5s and holy TRIBBLE! Vestas, Lunas, Nebula Refits, Atrox Carriers...
My concern is the fighter. The basic looks very good, but the elite not so much. Maybe replace the dual phaser cannons with one from a reputation system and upgrade the torpedo?
As far as I know... no hanger pet comes equipped with rep gear. Its either stock or, in the case of lockbox/lobi carriers, associated lockbox weapons.
Doesn't need a LTC tac or universal. This will be a good part gen boat with he and grab a mal tbr or a shield stripping boat to let the frigates be the dps. Besides with the LTC eng, that will give you ss1 or oss3.
My concern is the fighter. The basic looks very good, but the elite not so much. Maybe replace the dual phaser cannons with one from a reputation system and upgrade the torpedo?
Yeah i kinda wish they would do either a rep-based project that you can get hanger-pets that use the appropriate rep-based weapons, maybe have it that we hand in the pet to be changed with the project as part of the needed items. Or just give us a item we can get in the reps that you can use to upgrade the hanger-pets to use a look an weapon load-out that is appropriate to the reputation. We kinda used to have this in old reps like Nukara an new romulan reps, and it would be nice to have this again in a different way that we could upgrade a fighter, shuttle, or frigate hanger-pet to use the rep's weapons an shield/engine visuals (this more for the larger frigates).
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
Doesn't need a LTC tac or universal. This will be a good part gen boat with he and grab a mal tbr or a shield stripping boat to let the frigates be the dps. Besides with the LTC eng, that will give you ss1 or oss3.
Some people don't care. Its "Give me Tac or you fail" on everything. Most of their tactics kinda revolve more around pew pew than space magic. And I agree. The more science setup for the new Jupiter would make her a good Grav Well boat. I'm just imagining what a friend of mine, who made a Plasma Torpedo Spamtrox, could do with this baby.
I'm not sure Cryptic fully understands the concept of a proper carrier. The only thing I find special about it is the extra hangar bay. Other than that, it doesn't have much value. If they wanted a proper carrier, they would need to put in special escorts in the hangar slot, and not cheap out on peregrines. I feel they really dropped the bomb on this one.
Some people don't care. Its "Give me Tac or you fail" on everything. Most of their tactics kinda revolve more around pew pew than space magic.
Which is the act of launching fighters to defend you or destroy a target? Is it space magic, or a straight-up Tactical role?
I object to the entire concept of a "science" carrier. You don't need fighters to scan nebulae or beam down and pick flowers. Carriers should be Tac-heavy first, Eng-heavy second, and just enough Sci to have one copy of Hazard Emitters and one of Polarize Hull.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
I'm not sure Cryptic fully understands the concept of a proper carrier. The only thing I find special about it is the extra hangar bay. Other than that, it doesn't have much value. If they wanted a proper carrier, they would need to put in special escorts in the hangar slot, and not cheap out on peregrines. I feel they really dropped the bomb on this one.
They're also releasing a frigate pet for Starfleet, which I'm sure will be quite popular.
Which is the act of launching fighters to defend you or destroy a target? Is it space magic, or a straight-up Tactical role?
I object to the entire concept of a "science" carrier. You don't need fighters to scan nebulae or beam down and pick flowers. Carriers should be Tac-heavy first, Eng-heavy second, and just enough Sci to have one copy of Hazard Emitters and one of Polarize Hull.
Tac heavy carriers already exist, in the form of Escort Carriers which are ment to fly in with their support craft. Full size carriers would probably be more Engie heavy to be able to support thier fighters and rely on them to do most of the damage. You also have to consider that Starfleet leans more towards multi-role designs so a larger ship like the new Jupiter would have a role in peace time. For all we know, the Jupiter also acts as like a mobile lab facility for extended surveys where a standard science ship wouldn't have the resources required. And who said that it only had fighters? Maybe it was "Originally" designed to deploy recon craft to gather scan data from a large area and maybe even gather samples.
Some people don't care. Its "Give me Tac or you fail" on everything. Most of their tactics kinda revolve more around pew pew than space magic.
Which is the act of launching fighters to defend you or destroy a target? Is it space magic, or a straight-up Tactical role?
I object to the entire concept of a "science" carrier. You don't need fighters to scan nebulae or beam down and pick flowers. Carriers should be Tac-heavy first, Eng-heavy second, and just enough Sci to have one copy of Hazard Emitters and one of Polarize Hull.
The question might be -what do Carriers outside of combat?
I could see that when not at war, a Carrier might be equipped with lots of probes and drones and shuttle craft for exploration missions. A Carrier could be send deep space and send out probes en masse to gather initial information about star systems - anything of immediate interest could get a shuttle with some specialists that follow up on that, while the Carrier continues on its main course.
If the ship was Command and had a stronger engineering focus, I could also see it as a kind of mobile command base that also helps ships in the area to repair or refuel. But the ship is Intel, so it might really focus more on the information gathering aspect.
What's lacking are some decent drone pets IMO that get the feeling right of Carriers as exploration vessels.
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I'm not sure Cryptic fully understands the concept of a proper carrier. The only thing I find special about it is the extra hangar bay. Other than that, it doesn't have much value. If they wanted a proper carrier, they would need to put in special escorts in the hangar slot, and not cheap out on peregrines. I feel they really dropped the bomb on this one.
They're also releasing a frigate pet for Starfleet, which I'm sure will be quite popular.
You got me excited there for a sec. (Missed them when I read the page) But after reading the first line for them, my disappointment immediately rose again. I have been waiting for a new Cryptic made fighter with a t6 skin to match my command battlecruiser. But having to buy the carrier in order to buy the fighters is complete bs. I would understand if they came with the carrier, but being released seperate from the carrier and still requiring the carrier to order to purchase them is just pure greed from cryptic to get people to buy the new ship. And this goes for all faction specific fighters that have to be bought after buying the ship.
Personally i see this ship in a role of yes a ship that would help coordinate the ships it is with alongside its own hanger-pets in war or combat situations. Yet with how large the ship i could see it also pulling a role for evacuations, damage control, or explorations in deep space areas that have a known dangerous element to them. I could see this ship used to transport a population of a world via the shuttles off-world to the ship in a crisis situation, or even as a mobile platform to combat outbreaks of illnesses via research an quarantines on the ship. Also how better for you to use as put "Space magic" than from a far-off location that you can observe the combat in the area, and then apply said "space magic" to increase your forces advantage fire-power, or to defend weakened vessels via same said "space magic" to deter enemies from chasing them.
Another issue is a ship this size would not be in the thick of it most likely, and with the drop off for cannons, it would be better suited to use a broadsiding style of fighting via beam arrays reducing the usefulness of the cannon-using pets. The reason i say that is to me this would be great to use the concentrate fire trait that allows your pets to fire a cannon rapid-fire or beam overload after your primary ship uses the same ability if your pet has a corresponding weapon type to use it.
I agree we need a vote for a new Romulan and KDF ship. This way we can see what happens. To me this helps get the community involved. And get our input on the design.
The ship is very nice. Looking for to purchase it. Not sure which of my Fed captains will use it yet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'm working on trying to make another campaign that would have ships for our Romulan and KDF friends
I really really hope you succeed there... anything to get KDF and RR more ships... esp sci oriented ones.
Also please slap the stupid out of whoever said "Starfleet players have access to plenty of Escort and Cruiser options, but not very many Science ships"
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
Also please slap the stupid out of whoever said "Starfleet players have access to plenty of Escort and Cruiser options, but not very many Science ships"
I second the motion. KDF and Romulans are pretty screwed in the Science department, and Starfleet is apparently suffering from a "lack of science ships" in that blog?
There are more issues, not only with the Intel seating. But with the ship being sci centered, it honestly should be tac centered. (And don't call me a tac lover, because I don't play tac, and I am sick of all the tac ships we keep getting) A carrier is usually the center of a fleet, not on the sides providing aid.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
There are more issues, not only with the Intel seating. But with the ship being sci centered, it honestly should be tac centered. (And don't call me a tac lover, because I don't play tac, and I am sick of all the tac ships we keep getting) A carrier is usually the center of a fleet, not on the sides providing aid.
While you are correct that carriers are typically in the center of the fleet, it is because A: carriers are typically the lead ship, and B: they're more vulnerable than other ships. Modern Carriers typically have very little in the way of weapons of their own. Probably only Anti Air defenses at best. Their primary weapon are their fighters. In WW2 Carriers didn't engage enemy ships directly. They hung back and let their fighter wings do the damage. For example, the Battle of Midway. The entire battle was carried out by Carrier deployed aircraft. The American and Japanese fleets never actually saw each other for the supporting warships to open fire.
Problem is, most people may be inclined to fill any and all Universals with Tactical for more Pew Pew.
If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the people who designed a game where damage-dealing is by far the most useful contribution to a mission, and not those who build to deal with it most efficiently.
Even if that weren't the case, what's the problem with other people running builds you don't like? I hope we're not indulging the "restrict your options in support of my immersion" argument.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
I didn't say that I had a problem with it. I was responding to the person about the tendencies of most players who want more bang when he brought up universal stations. You're assuming I have a problem when there isn't one.
I didn't say that I had a problem with it. I was responding to the person about the tendencies of most players who want more bang when he brought up universal stations. You're assuming I have a problem when there isn't one.
You may not have meant "problem," but you certainly did use that word.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,072Community Moderator
Can we get back on topic and not dissect the meaning of my words. I was pointing out what most people are inclined to do with universals, not ranting about builds I don't approve of.
Carriers (becasue of thier 3/3 layout) should have an attack distance of 12 kilometers insteed of 10. It would make for some good play mechanics.
I could see that if it was done in a siege-like mode that deverts power to your weapon systems (maybe shields) from your propulsion system; So when you enter this seige-mode your ships speed an turn rate is dropped drastically, but in exchange you gain a buff to the range an firing-arc of your ship's weapons while in this mode (up to 200 degree arc). I actually like this idea as it would kinda fit the style of a carrier holding back an supporting their fleet, and hanger-pets in a combat area an using the excess power that they are not using to improve the ship's own combat capabilities. Though also the reduced turn-rate an speed would be a nice trade-off that would would return over a short duration after leaving the siege-mode
I'm not sure Cryptic fully understands the concept of a proper carrier.
Oh yes they do. Look at Jem'hadar dreadnaught carrier. While it turns like a beached pregnant whale it's a very fine ship.
Anyway, if the Callisto can be stuffed into a Yamato then I will think about this ship. Otherwise I'm waiting for a crossfaction carrier pack. That's its only chance.
Also please slap the stupid out of whoever said "Starfleet players have access to plenty of Escort and Cruiser options, but not very many Science ships"
I second the motion. KDF and Romulans are pretty screwed in the Science department, and Starfleet is apparently suffering from a "lack of science ships" in that blog?
Sci ships are lacking in all factions, KDF and Rom more lacking than Fed, yes. But they all need more sci ships, not one or the other.
I was kinda fussed about the 3/3 wep layout at first. But then remembered that when you run a full beam boat, and you put 2 of the AP omni's on rear wep slots, its like having two extra fore weapons. So the carrier as a beam boat with the 2 omni's in aft will make it feel like it actually has a 5/3 layout and i'm good with that.
Comments
Well... you could spin the KDF ship as a refit of the Vo'Quv. As for the Romulans... hm... not a clue.
1) It's a science carrier... It has Commander science. Why? Because it's a starfleet carrier and that's what a starfleet carrier would have (at least as has been established in-game).
2) it's not a lock box ship (they are always better, in some way)
3) it's not a giveaway ship (Sarr Theln) they always have good stats for what they are.
I have to say, it doesn't look too bad, all things considered.
I agree with you on the supposed "Lack" of Fed Science ships. At T6 we've got the Pathfinder, Dauntless, and Scryer at least. Throw in the T5s and holy TRIBBLE! Vestas, Lunas, Nebula Refits, Atrox Carriers...
Where's the lack of Fed Science ships?
As far as I know... no hanger pet comes equipped with rep gear. Its either stock or, in the case of lockbox/lobi carriers, associated lockbox weapons.
Yeah i kinda wish they would do either a rep-based project that you can get hanger-pets that use the appropriate rep-based weapons, maybe have it that we hand in the pet to be changed with the project as part of the needed items. Or just give us a item we can get in the reps that you can use to upgrade the hanger-pets to use a look an weapon load-out that is appropriate to the reputation. We kinda used to have this in old reps like Nukara an new romulan reps, and it would be nice to have this again in a different way that we could upgrade a fighter, shuttle, or frigate hanger-pet to use the rep's weapons an shield/engine visuals (this more for the larger frigates).
Some people don't care. Its "Give me Tac or you fail" on everything. Most of their tactics kinda revolve more around pew pew than space magic. And I agree. The more science setup for the new Jupiter would make her a good Grav Well boat. I'm just imagining what a friend of mine, who made a Plasma Torpedo Spamtrox, could do with this baby.
Which is the act of launching fighters to defend you or destroy a target? Is it space magic, or a straight-up Tactical role?
I object to the entire concept of a "science" carrier. You don't need fighters to scan nebulae or beam down and pick flowers. Carriers should be Tac-heavy first, Eng-heavy second, and just enough Sci to have one copy of Hazard Emitters and one of Polarize Hull.
They're also releasing a frigate pet for Starfleet, which I'm sure will be quite popular.
Tac heavy carriers already exist, in the form of Escort Carriers which are ment to fly in with their support craft. Full size carriers would probably be more Engie heavy to be able to support thier fighters and rely on them to do most of the damage. You also have to consider that Starfleet leans more towards multi-role designs so a larger ship like the new Jupiter would have a role in peace time. For all we know, the Jupiter also acts as like a mobile lab facility for extended surveys where a standard science ship wouldn't have the resources required. And who said that it only had fighters? Maybe it was "Originally" designed to deploy recon craft to gather scan data from a large area and maybe even gather samples.
The question might be -what do Carriers outside of combat?
I could see that when not at war, a Carrier might be equipped with lots of probes and drones and shuttle craft for exploration missions. A Carrier could be send deep space and send out probes en masse to gather initial information about star systems - anything of immediate interest could get a shuttle with some specialists that follow up on that, while the Carrier continues on its main course.
If the ship was Command and had a stronger engineering focus, I could also see it as a kind of mobile command base that also helps ships in the area to repair or refuel. But the ship is Intel, so it might really focus more on the information gathering aspect.
What's lacking are some decent drone pets IMO that get the feeling right of Carriers as exploration vessels.
You got me excited there for a sec. (Missed them when I read the page) But after reading the first line for them, my disappointment immediately rose again. I have been waiting for a new Cryptic made fighter with a t6 skin to match my command battlecruiser. But having to buy the carrier in order to buy the fighters is complete bs. I would understand if they came with the carrier, but being released seperate from the carrier and still requiring the carrier to order to purchase them is just pure greed from cryptic to get people to buy the new ship. And this goes for all faction specific fighters that have to be bought after buying the ship.
Another issue is a ship this size would not be in the thick of it most likely, and with the drop off for cannons, it would be better suited to use a broadsiding style of fighting via beam arrays reducing the usefulness of the cannon-using pets. The reason i say that is to me this would be great to use the concentrate fire trait that allows your pets to fire a cannon rapid-fire or beam overload after your primary ship uses the same ability if your pet has a corresponding weapon type to use it.
The ship is very nice. Looking for to purchase it. Not sure which of my Fed captains will use it yet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Then it should have some combination of career-specific and universal Bridge Officer slots that allows one Ltc BO to be slotted for each career type.
I really really hope you succeed there... anything to get KDF and RR more ships... esp sci oriented ones.
Also please slap the stupid out of whoever said "Starfleet players have access to plenty of Escort and Cruiser options, but not very many Science ships"
Problem is, most people may be inclined to fill any and all Universals with Tactical for more Pew Pew.
I second the motion. KDF and Romulans are pretty screwed in the Science department, and Starfleet is apparently suffering from a "lack of science ships" in that blog?
While you are correct that carriers are typically in the center of the fleet, it is because A: carriers are typically the lead ship, and B: they're more vulnerable than other ships. Modern Carriers typically have very little in the way of weapons of their own. Probably only Anti Air defenses at best. Their primary weapon are their fighters. In WW2 Carriers didn't engage enemy ships directly. They hung back and let their fighter wings do the damage. For example, the Battle of Midway. The entire battle was carried out by Carrier deployed aircraft. The American and Japanese fleets never actually saw each other for the supporting warships to open fire.
If you have a problem with that, you have a problem with the people who designed a game where damage-dealing is by far the most useful contribution to a mission, and not those who build to deal with it most efficiently.
Even if that weren't the case, what's the problem with other people running builds you don't like? I hope we're not indulging the "restrict your options in support of my immersion" argument.
You may not have meant "problem," but you certainly did use that word.
Are you saying the Sarr Theln has the same as the Jupiter or the same as the Annorax?
I could see that if it was done in a siege-like mode that deverts power to your weapon systems (maybe shields) from your propulsion system; So when you enter this seige-mode your ships speed an turn rate is dropped drastically, but in exchange you gain a buff to the range an firing-arc of your ship's weapons while in this mode (up to 200 degree arc). I actually like this idea as it would kinda fit the style of a carrier holding back an supporting their fleet, and hanger-pets in a combat area an using the excess power that they are not using to improve the ship's own combat capabilities. Though also the reduced turn-rate an speed would be a nice trade-off that would would return over a short duration after leaving the siege-mode
Oh yes they do. Look at Jem'hadar dreadnaught carrier. While it turns like a beached pregnant whale it's a very fine ship.
Anyway, if the Callisto can be stuffed into a Yamato then I will think about this ship. Otherwise I'm waiting for a crossfaction carrier pack. That's its only chance.
Sci ships are lacking in all factions, KDF and Rom more lacking than Fed, yes. But they all need more sci ships, not one or the other.