Considering the effects people on DS9 couldn't even maintain a scale for the station or the Defiant, I don't see how anyone can come here and say it's wrong.
The same way fans figured out the JJprise's scale.
Those might have been giants building it. I wouldn't go by visual cues of its construction.
I buy the idea that it is bigger than a Sovereign based on the stated information that places it that size and the idea that the timeline changes are based on mass reverse-engineering and dissemination of late 24th century tech based on the Kelvin's scans and the Klingons' 25 odd years of research on the Narada while they had it captured. It's a TNG sequel, technologically.
They don't even have the ships scaled correctly, wouldn't do much good to scale DS9 correctly if they can't even scale the ships correctly.
They have proven countless times ships are properly scaled. Even showing they use official measurements supplied by CBS itself. The only exceptions are with ships being too small (like the Defiant and B'rel) or too large (D'Deridex) which were scaled to fit gameplay.
I absolutely despise the argument that DS9 and K7 must be inflated to "look impressive"
They don't look "impressive" at all. They look ridiculous. DS9 was designed to have very recognisable features that scaled with the interior sets, so you got a sense of how big it was. The promenade windows for instance.
Thus, scaling it up looks stupid, because I KNOW how big the promenade is, and with the upscaled version I could fit a dreadnought in there.
The design is what it is. If it gets blotted out by 20 ships (ridiculous exaggeration) then so be it.
I'm sure ESD would be more prominent if it was painted in neon pink. But they don't go and do that, do they?
I understand what people are saying, I do, however you have to think beyond on just the "Star Trek Canon". At the end fo the day this is a game. Most games don't have things to scale for a reason. An example would be a city such as Stormwind in WoW. Yes it is a capital city but do you really think that player/person could run through the "real" city in a couple of minutes? The answer is no. Truth it a city like Stormwind would be huge but has to be scaled down to fit in the virtual world. Same with DS9 in this case. If we had a bunch of player ships hanging over it nobody would be able to see it so the best way to handle it is to scale it up.
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
I understand what people are saying, I do, however you have to think beyond on just the "Star Trek Canon". At the end fo the day this is a game. Most games don't have things to scale for a reason. An example would be a city such as Stormwind in WoW. Yes it is a capital city but do you really think that player/person could run through the "real" city in a couple of minutes? The answer is no. Truth it a city like Stormwind would be huge but has to be scaled down to fit in the virtual world. Same with DS9 in this case. If we had a bunch of player ships hanging over it nobody would be able to see it so the best way to handle it is to scale it up.
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
Faulty comparison. Stormwind is small because it would be too difficult and ultimately pointless to make a realistically scaled city in an open world like WoW's.
The argument that a properly scaled DS9 would be obscured by ships is ultimately false.
I guarantee you that you could plonk 20 Scimitars around the station and you could still see it. Because this is space.
Not to mention that Cryptic can set the spawn point of ships.
Just as ships spawn a distance away from ESD in order to not obscure it and are forced to slow down on approach, they could do the same with DS9.
Sorry, but each and every argument you can make for DS9's frankly idiotic scale can be shot down faster than an airliner over Soviet Russia.
As for K7... remove it from the game. Its interior is of extremely low quality and the station serves no real purpose (other than a few breadcrumb missions).
I love K7 - no esd chat spam and only here and there an idiot placing a Disco ball. On top the very short ways - maybe delete esd and first City - but don't touch K7 - or Genalda.
indeed, don't touch K7 and Ganalda, these stations are perfect.
The argument that a properly scaled DS9 would be obscured by ships is ultimately false.
While the obstruction of DS9 by ships would be problematic, the main issue I know of, is gameplay. We have a couple of missions in which you fly around the station fighting things. If the station were properly scaled, you couldn't fly through the arms/rings, and it would be a lot more boring. DS9 would be more like just another ship, rather than the environmental obstacle course it acts as now.
I guarantee you that you could plonk 20 Scimitars around the station and you could still see it. Because this is space.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
This isn't really one of those cases, though. There's absolutely no reason DS9 has to be pretentiously oversized at all. Sure, it wouldn't look as "impressive", but is being pretentious really a functionally important goal?
Does gameplay count as a "functionally important goal"? My understanding is that the main reason DS9 is the size it is, is to make it fun to fly around while fighting things.
Please note through all of this, that the trekkie, and the environment artist in me would like to have things be the size they are supposed to be. But I work on a video game. And gameplay/usability trump looks and canon. If design says that they have to be oversized, that's the way it is.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
Taco, normally I'd support you but you just posted the one ship I know for a fact is wrongly sized in STO: The Scimitar. On the pics, it's 1100 meters long, it's supposed to be about 800 (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/nemesis-chart.jpg).
Yes, correctly scaled DS9 would easily get obscured by ships like the Scim. But hey, if the scim were scaled correctly, it'd obscure less.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Taco, normally I'd support you but you just posted the one ship I know for a fact is wrongly sized in STO: The Scimitar. On the pics, it's 1100 meters long, it's supposed to be about 800 (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/nemesis-chart.jpg).
Yes, correctly scaled DS9 would easily get obscured by ships like the Scim. But hey, if the scim were scaled correctly, it'd obscure less.
I posted the Scimitar because that's what was called out. Yes, the scimitar is oversized, but not by much. It's supposed to be 900m, not 800m. So 20% smaller. That's still a big ship.
Here's what a properly scaled K-7 (450m across) looks like:
Looks good to me. No, actually, it looks great. It makes later generation ships like the Galaxy look all the more impressive.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
Well here's the thing. I can still see it.
And be honest, when was the last time you saw a bunch of ships literally cluster****ing a station like that?
In real gameplay terms, most ships tend to bunch together at the spawn points, or fly around at a distance. I've in fact never once seen a bunch of ships try to ram a station for no good reason.
And much like K7, even with a bunch of Scimitars reaming it, the station still looks better.
Please note through all of this, that the trekkie, and the environment artist in me would like to have things be the size they are supposed to be. But I work on a video game. And gameplay/usability trump looks and canon. If design says that they have to be oversized, that's the way it is.
People have made the same argument for ship interiors and you know what? It's simply not true. The Voyager interior in particular proves that.
Now you may argue that boff AI needs bigger interiors to function properly. I'd in turn argue that if it really is that bad, then missions without them (such as the Voyager interior ones) are perfectly acceptable.
On the subject of flying through DS9.. yeah, as has been pointed out, you can just inflate it for shuttle based missions.
.... or try to fly through it in a JHAS or Defiant or other small ships. There's no valid reason why a Galaxy or a Scimitar should be flying through there.
I mean I'm sure it'd be fun to fly an Odyssey around the interior of ESD too but you would have to inflate the thing to ridiculous proportions to make that doable and the rest of us would be stuck with a giant structure just so a couple of people can have fun tooling around inside for 5 minutes. It really doesn't make much practical sense.
JHDC and JHAS, I'd love to know how I get 4 JHAS in my JHDC
I don't think that the pets in such a case are so much physically inside the carrier as they are simply being supported by said carrier. Pets are a definitely-not-to-scale thing, anyway.
Mind you I'm pretty sure the JHDC is a case of underscaling, it was far bigger in the actual show.
Scale is the one thing the sto engine just can't really do.
I used to be pretty into the idea that scale was the number one flaw with sto, specifically flying something like a shuttle around a huge starship, but I guess I got over it.
Ds9 would look really dumb at "actual scale" because of the number of ships that are always around it. Especially with abominations like the scimitar.
The way it's scaled now, it always looks like a big space station.
In the respect, it's one of the best scaled objects in the game, along with the other big stations.
The big star ships in the game all come across as quite small when you fly them, like micro machines. It's nice to have stuff that dwarfs them.
Literally everything you've said has been debunked.
Moreover, DS9 is not a big space station. It was never meant to be a big space station. And guess what? It doesn't look like a big space station. It looks like an oversized model and kills all immersion, unless we're to believe this is a station inhabited by giants.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The argument that a properly scaled DS9 would be obscured by ships is ultimately false.
While the obstruction of DS9 by ships would be problematic, the main issue I know of, is gameplay. We have a couple of missions in which you fly around the station fighting things. If the station were properly scaled, you couldn't fly through the arms/rings, and it would be a lot more boring. DS9 would be more like just another ship, rather than the environmental obstacle course it acts as now.
I guarantee you that you could plonk 20 Scimitars around the station and you could still see it. Because this is space.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
This isn't really one of those cases, though. There's absolutely no reason DS9 has to be pretentiously oversized at all. Sure, it wouldn't look as "impressive", but is being pretentious really a functionally important goal?
Does gameplay count as a "functionally important goal"? My understanding is that the main reason DS9 is the size it is, is to make it fun to fly around while fighting things.
Please note through all of this, that the trekkie, and the environment artist in me would like to have things be the size they are supposed to be. But I work on a video game. And gameplay/usability trump looks and canon. If design says that they have to be oversized, that's the way it is.
Taco taking you all to school. Now pipe down, get your books out and open to page 1337.
And what's wrong with this? Seems right to me. The Galaxy-class starship is/was a modern battleship. K-7 is an aging space outpost. There is no reason it has to be pretentiously huge, even if it is our home away from home. I'm not going to think "less" of K-7 if it's correctly sized, especially since a player's first encounter with it is likely in his Miranda or Connie.
Who said anything is wrong with it? I was just showing what people are asking for.
Personally, I would like to see this, but I understand why it isn't that way, for gameplay reasons. If in Night of the Commet, you're flying around comets 10km away and can't even SEE K-7, that's a problem.
I don't see why there can't be a compromise. Those missions in which you do those things are shuttle missions. You can upscale the station for that mission to accomodate the shuttle-ness, as shutles are oversized for meaningful, functional reasons. The rest of the time when we're not trying to use it as a battleground for shuttles, it can be regularly-sized.
What? What shuttle missions? The 2800 is you in your ship. Thew new Terrok Nor Queue is you in your ship.
Scale is the one thing the sto engine just can't really do.
In what respect? What does the scale of one ship to another, or a ship to a station, have to do with the engine?
There are limits on scale in a much grander way (we can't build space at real scale) but there's nothing enginewise that limits relative scales.
A ) How is this constructive at all? This feels unnecessarily hostile. Like you're poking me with a stick just to see me jump.
B ) You already know I'm reading this thread, there is no need to tag me into it. Just as there is no need to tweet me to threads you've started. If I want to participate, I will do so of my own accord.
The argument that a properly scaled DS9 would be obscured by ships is ultimately false.
While the obstruction of DS9 by ships would be problematic, the main issue I know of, is gameplay. We have a couple of missions in which you fly around the station fighting things. If the station were properly scaled, you couldn't fly through the arms/rings, and it would be a lot more boring. DS9 would be more like just another ship, rather than the environmental obstacle course it acts as now.
I guarantee you that you could plonk 20 Scimitars around the station and you could still see it. Because this is space.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
This isn't really one of those cases, though. There's absolutely no reason DS9 has to be pretentiously oversized at all. Sure, it wouldn't look as "impressive", but is being pretentious really a functionally important goal?
Does gameplay count as a "functionally important goal"? My understanding is that the main reason DS9 is the size it is, is to make it fun to fly around while fighting things.
Please note through all of this, that the trekkie, and the environment artist in me would like to have things be the size they are supposed to be. But I work on a video game. And gameplay/usability trump looks and canon. If design says that they have to be oversized, that's the way it is.
Taco taking you all to school. Now pipe down, get your books out and open to page 1337.
It helps to read the rest of the thread before attempting sycophancy.
Comments
Those might have been giants building it. I wouldn't go by visual cues of its construction.
I buy the idea that it is bigger than a Sovereign based on the stated information that places it that size and the idea that the timeline changes are based on mass reverse-engineering and dissemination of late 24th century tech based on the Kelvin's scans and the Klingons' 25 odd years of research on the Narada while they had it captured. It's a TNG sequel, technologically.
They have proven countless times ships are properly scaled. Even showing they use official measurements supplied by CBS itself. The only exceptions are with ships being too small (like the Defiant and B'rel) or too large (D'Deridex) which were scaled to fit gameplay.
They don't look "impressive" at all. They look ridiculous. DS9 was designed to have very recognisable features that scaled with the interior sets, so you got a sense of how big it was. The promenade windows for instance.
Thus, scaling it up looks stupid, because I KNOW how big the promenade is, and with the upscaled version I could fit a dreadnought in there.
The design is what it is. If it gets blotted out by 20 ships (ridiculous exaggeration) then so be it.
I'm sure ESD would be more prominent if it was painted in neon pink. But they don't go and do that, do they?
This is probably one of the smaller issues in the game currently if I am being honest. I get that people want it "like it was on the show" but sometimes changes have to be made to make it fit in the virtual world.
Faulty comparison. Stormwind is small because it would be too difficult and ultimately pointless to make a realistically scaled city in an open world like WoW's.
The argument that a properly scaled DS9 would be obscured by ships is ultimately false.
I guarantee you that you could plonk 20 Scimitars around the station and you could still see it. Because this is space.
Not to mention that Cryptic can set the spawn point of ships.
Just as ships spawn a distance away from ESD in order to not obscure it and are forced to slow down on approach, they could do the same with DS9.
Sorry, but each and every argument you can make for DS9's frankly idiotic scale can be shot down faster than an airliner over Soviet Russia.
indeed, don't touch K7 and Ganalda, these stations are perfect.
Name two ships (not including shuttles) which are NOT to scale with each other.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7210/6801454400_3fdcbff53a_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6043/7006085291_49cf6ea7c9_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8324/8424623320_ed3a1beb19_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7456/9345158350_1036770253_b.jpg
While the obstruction of DS9 by ships would be problematic, the main issue I know of, is gameplay. We have a couple of missions in which you fly around the station fighting things. If the station were properly scaled, you couldn't fly through the arms/rings, and it would be a lot more boring. DS9 would be more like just another ship, rather than the environmental obstacle course it acts as now.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
Does gameplay count as a "functionally important goal"? My understanding is that the main reason DS9 is the size it is, is to make it fun to fly around while fighting things.
Please note through all of this, that the trekkie, and the environment artist in me would like to have things be the size they are supposed to be. But I work on a video game. And gameplay/usability trump looks and canon. If design says that they have to be oversized, that's the way it is.
Sorry, Flickr's acting weird, so I tried going from Dropbox. I'll upload again when things start working.
Edit: Should be working now?
Yes, correctly scaled DS9 would easily get obscured by ships like the Scim. But hey, if the scim were scaled correctly, it'd obscure less.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I posted the Scimitar because that's what was called out. Yes, the scimitar is oversized, but not by much. It's supposed to be 900m, not 800m. So 20% smaller. That's still a big ship.
Looks good to me. No, actually, it looks great. It makes later generation ships like the Galaxy look all the more impressive.
Well here's the thing. I can still see it.
And be honest, when was the last time you saw a bunch of ships literally cluster****ing a station like that?
In real gameplay terms, most ships tend to bunch together at the spawn points, or fly around at a distance. I've in fact never once seen a bunch of ships try to ram a station for no good reason.
And much like K7, even with a bunch of Scimitars reaming it, the station still looks better.
People have made the same argument for ship interiors and you know what? It's simply not true. The Voyager interior in particular proves that.
Now you may argue that boff AI needs bigger interiors to function properly. I'd in turn argue that if it really is that bad, then missions without them (such as the Voyager interior ones) are perfectly acceptable.
.... or try to fly through it in a JHAS or Defiant or other small ships. There's no valid reason why a Galaxy or a Scimitar should be flying through there.
I mean I'm sure it'd be fun to fly an Odyssey around the interior of ESD too but you would have to inflate the thing to ridiculous proportions to make that doable and the rest of us would be stuck with a giant structure just so a couple of people can have fun tooling around inside for 5 minutes. It really doesn't make much practical sense.
@tacofangs
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Mind you I'm pretty sure the JHDC is a case of underscaling, it was far bigger in the actual show.
Literally everything you've said has been debunked.
Moreover, DS9 is not a big space station. It was never meant to be a big space station. And guess what? It doesn't look like a big space station. It looks like an oversized model and kills all immersion, unless we're to believe this is a station inhabited by giants.
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
My character Tsin'xing
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
Taco taking you all to school. Now pipe down, get your books out and open to page 1337.
Who said anything is wrong with it? I was just showing what people are asking for.
Personally, I would like to see this, but I understand why it isn't that way, for gameplay reasons. If in Night of the Commet, you're flying around comets 10km away and can't even SEE K-7, that's a problem.
What? What shuttle missions? The 2800 is you in your ship. Thew new Terrok Nor Queue is you in your ship.
In what respect? What does the scale of one ship to another, or a ship to a station, have to do with the engine?
There are limits on scale in a much grander way (we can't build space at real scale) but there's nothing enginewise that limits relative scales.
A ) How is this constructive at all? This feels unnecessarily hostile. Like you're poking me with a stick just to see me jump.
B ) You already know I'm reading this thread, there is no need to tag me into it. Just as there is no need to tweet me to threads you've started. If I want to participate, I will do so of my own accord.
It helps to read the rest of the thread before attempting sycophancy.