Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Well see I don't necesarilly agree with that either. But I can understand that a bit more.
The thing is, these are seperate zones so why not scale it down for the social zones? I'm less likely to park and examine things or want to take screenshots while in combat or whatever, but I will when in a normal zone.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Well see I don't necesarilly agree with that either. But I can understand that a bit more.
The thing is, these are seperate zones so why not scale it down for the social zones? I'm less likely to park and examine things or want to take screenshots while in combat or whatever, but I will when in a normal zone.
You don't think that would be even more immersion breaking? If you're used to seeing DS9 at 1450m, and you go into a mission and it's suddenly 3x the size, wouldn't that be distracting? Personally, I'd rather it be wrong all the time, but consistent within the game, than vice versa.
As has been pointed out, things weren't to scale in the actual show all the time, like the galaxy saucer sized defiant in the posted picture, so wouldn't that mean if anything the out of scale ships and stations make the game more true to the source material since that's what happened on TV?
Lot of complaints about the scale of everything in game. Personally it doesn't really matter to me. It allows the game to feel larger than it really is. It also allows us to enjoy the very small details brought to life on everything. See the details up close and personal.
If the scaling of the game is that big of a deal to you you might consider picking up some CGI tool and making things to scale and then enjoying it that way. The game is the way it is right now to make it easier and IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with the scaling that detracts from the whole that is in the game. If the amount of people allowed to be in map was scaled down than they'd have to make more NPCs to make the maps, especially for DS9, appear busier.
Would you rather have NPC players who don't interact with you for your RP matters or more players on the same map who CAN RP with you?
In the end, that's all I see this being about. Wanting to RP in a to scale world. What if the actual sizes used were so unrealistically small you'd have to be hobbits to move down the corridors?
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A ) How is this constructive at all? This feels unnecessarily hostile. Like you're poking me with a stick just to see me jump.
B ) You already know I'm reading this thread, there is no need to tag me into it. Just as there is no need to tweet me to threads you've started. If I want to participate, I will do so of my own accord.
You seem offended. If so, I apologize. The reason I tagged your handle was because @repetitiveepic said something ridiculous about the game engine, and I was looking forward to you setting him straight. Again, I apologise for being such a horrible person and doing such a terrible thing as using your @ handle
A ) How is this constructive at all? This feels unnecessarily hostile. Like you're poking me with a stick just to see me jump.
B ) You already know I'm reading this thread, there is no need to tag me into it. Just as there is no need to tweet me to threads you've started. If I want to participate, I will do so of my own accord.
You seem offended. If so, I apologize. The reason I tagged your handle was because @repetitiveepic said something ridiculous about the game engine, and I was looking forward to you setting him straight. Again, I apologise for being such a horrible person and doing such a terrible thing as using your @ handle
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Well see I don't necesarilly agree with that either. But I can understand that a bit more.
The thing is, these are seperate zones so why not scale it down for the social zones? I'm less likely to park and examine things or want to take screenshots while in combat or whatever, but I will when in a normal zone.
You don't think that would be even more immersion breaking? If you're used to seeing DS9 at 1450m, and you go into a mission and it's suddenly 3x the size, wouldn't that be distracting? Personally, I'd rather it be wrong all the time, but consistent within the game, than vice versa.
Not really, since I don't do those missions all too often. I'd honestly rather the DS9 I visit more often be the proper scale.
Alright, alright... Boldly they Rode and the new queue and whatever are a problem.
I don't like it but at this point DS9 can't be correctly scaled. K-7 would be easier to get right. But my number one gripe remains the Scimitar.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
I would still say it's not really a problem because again unless you're a JHAS or other small ship you have no business dogfighting through the station anyway.
I like my capital ships to be capital ships, if I wanted to buzz around like a world war 2 fighter I'd play X-Wing.
Well, I didn't bother with 20 of them, but here's 5 Scimis, a Galaxy, and a Defiant gathered around a properly scaled DS9 (1452m across) Yes, DS9 is still visible, but that's because I essentially composed the shot so that it would be. Note that if there were 15 more Scimitars around, I doubt anyone would see much:
Actually... depending on how things go I might end up fighting inside DS9 in Boldly. It all depends on how mighty the ship I'm flying can tank.
Ships tend to get stuck on props, its irritating to no end when some escort decide to get stuck on something and you cannot even fire on the thing because only one specific angle allows weapons to fire, its bad idea to have battles inside props so we can see the pathfinder have a critical failure (since they cannot understand reverse) and we spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how to shoot the thing ... might look pretty on cutscenes but doesnt really works.
A smaller DS9 would help because reason they get stuck is they end up nose into one of the arms and they cannot clear it because the arm is too big for them to move to the side.
A smaller DS9 might make this problem worse, as there are no avenues in which a larger ship would be able to fly through the station. i.e. more ships won't fit, but that won't stop them from trying to fly through the arms/rings.
A smaller DS9 might make this problem worse, as there are no avenues in which a larger ship would be able to fly through the station. i.e. more ships won't fit, but that won't stop them from trying to fly through the arms/rings.
That to me, is the most awesome thing you can do with your starship, fly it through the rings. It is one of the reasons I have a defiant on every fed, and fed-rom toon.
I would prefer that they just fix the interior. Quarks bar with the outside serving area, Sick bay, Constables office and tailor shop. Make it the equivlent to ESD.
However I believe the chances of this happening are about the same as getting proper small craft interiors.
I'm not at all bothered by the outside scale. When I'm docking it's a full impulse burst to get to the centre and hit 'F' several times to get inside. I a mission I'm generally flying big ships (like the Oddy) so it doesn't look too out of scale.
I loath the current interior however. Not because it's so bad, but because it's not DS9. People asking for little changes (like adding a security or assay office) mustn't be able to see just how non-DS9 it is. As soon as a little office is added bang goes our chance for a ESD style Taco revamp from whitebox scratch.
If I remember correctly it was said that there will be a full revamp but not for the launch of the new season. So I'm predicting an interior revamp, with a reworking of the Dominion FE series for 11.5.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Can't you keep it large for those missions and scale it for the space social zones?
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
Well see I don't necesarilly agree with that either. But I can understand that a bit more.
The thing is, these are seperate zones so why not scale it down for the social zones? I'm less likely to park and examine things or want to take screenshots while in combat or whatever, but I will when in a normal zone.
You don't think that would be even more immersion breaking? If you're used to seeing DS9 at 1450m, and you go into a mission and it's suddenly 3x the size, wouldn't that be distracting? Personally, I'd rather it be wrong all the time, but consistent within the game, than vice versa.
Makes sense to me. To be honest, it would be all but impossible to make everyone happy on this matter. Do a poll and prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
And without doing the math, my guess is that some of the ships we use as players could end up being bigger than DS9 to scale?
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Due to STO being an MMO at it's core (although they are toning this down nowadays with the environments), all environments for group content tend to quite noticeably oversized. This is most noticeable with space stations (and other man-made space objects for that matter). This is probably so that they can be seen from a distance, and in space stations' cases, not be totally obscured by single large ships like the Scimitar, Bortasqu' and Odyssey.
The same can be said of Shuttles, which are massively oversized (The Delta Flyer for example, is nearly the size of Voyager's entire aft section).
If you can't solve it logically, solve it like a moron.
51 + 1 Foundry Character Slots is NOT enough. Some of us love our characters. If I want to buy more character slots, why can't I? I couldn't experience the entire Delta Recruitment event without deleting a character.
The Iconians themselves can't time travel because their memories revert, but there is nothing to say an Iconian couldn't write everything she needed to do on a PADD, pin it to herself, travel back, read the PADD, do the tasks and return. Or just get one of her Non-Herald underlings to go back in time for her.
Oh yeah, I do Foundry missions for both KDFs and Feds. Just search KSTF (Short for Kinas Special Task Force, where Kinas is the name of the Admiral you will be serving under). The earlier ones are less story based and more combat based, while the later ones have a much heavier story element, but keep the large battles.
Actually... depending on how things go I might end up fighting inside DS9 in Boldly. It all depends on how mighty the ship I'm flying can tank.
Ships tend to get stuck on props, its irritating to no end when some escort decide to get stuck on something and you cannot even fire on the thing because only one specific angle allows weapons to fire, its bad idea to have battles inside props so we can see the pathfinder have a critical failure (since they cannot understand reverse) and we spend 5 minutes trying to figure out how to shoot the thing ... might look pretty on cutscenes but doesnt really works.
A smaller DS9 would help because reason they get stuck is they end up nose into one of the arms and they cannot clear it because the arm is too big for them to move to the side.
A smaller DS9 might make this problem worse, as there are no avenues in which a larger ship would be able to fly through the station. i.e. more ships won't fit, but that won't stop them from trying to fly through the arms/rings.
Couldn't they just made a similar design to ESD? I mean the "real earth" is not to scale either but at least ships dont land on it directly. Perhaps the real DS9 could be in background with a shipyard next to it so people would dock in the shipyard with the background of DS9 instead of what it is now.
Just to illustrate a point I made earlier, here's a screenshot I just took:
Notice where ships tend to congregate, at the spawn points for entry to the system and exit from ESD.
This is what it looks like, typically, every time I go here. See that virtually no ship is in front of or anywhere near ESD itself. While ESD is big, yes, there would also be ZERO obstructions if there was a smaller structure there, like a properly scaled DS9.
Except that the default spawn for DS9(when beaming up from DS9 ground) is directly above the station, and between the pylons.
Therefore... change the spawn point.
Since scaling down the station to it's proper size would involve altering the zone anyway, just do that too.
The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
In theory, all content involving DS9 could have been shuttle scale with a Defiant as the BIG ship. Shuttle content didn't exist when the game launched.
Honestly, most of the gameplay involving DS9's exterior is going out the window with the Cardassian revamp. And if you're trying to sneak around -- on or off the station (or Empok Nor), shuttles make more sense. They're kind of an underleveraged mechanic in STO.
It'd be kinda cool actually if the social zone around DS9 switched us to shuttles and we saw NPCs costumed as the players' main ships at the perimeter. There is no shuttle social zone in game. Which probably impedes shuttle sales. But DS9 kind of makes sense as a zone where you'd need to switch to shuttles to dock. Maybe an exception could be made for small full size craft. That's an interesting technical question, if you could have a zone that switches people to shuttles UNLESS they're flying Defiant, BoP, T'Varo, or JHAS.
But most of the station approaches in DS9 were runabouts and raiders. The Defiant would also look impressive if the map were shuttle scale.
Now, you'd have an oversized DS9 in the new Mirror event, sure. But you could just limit the scale bending to that queued instance where there's a lot going on and cite it as scale bending for the encounter like the show did. That's part of it too: the show had a variable scale for the assets depending on what looked good. So why does STO need a fixed scale? Why can't DS9's scale vary to the content use of it?
I don't worry about the scale of things, just look at it as a computer representation of the physical object being shown on screen, zoomed to a viewable size since the object itself might be too big or too small to be seen completely, Imagine it looking quite different if you were actually just looking out a window, in fact if you were looking out a window you wouldn't even be able to see most of the stuff that you see on screen.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
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The spawn point can be moved easily, but again, the main reason DS9 is the scale it is isn't because of ships spawning in, it's because of mission gameplay involving it.
My character Tsin'xing
Well see I don't necesarilly agree with that either. But I can understand that a bit more.
The thing is, these are seperate zones so why not scale it down for the social zones? I'm less likely to park and examine things or want to take screenshots while in combat or whatever, but I will when in a normal zone.
You don't think that would be even more immersion breaking? If you're used to seeing DS9 at 1450m, and you go into a mission and it's suddenly 3x the size, wouldn't that be distracting? Personally, I'd rather it be wrong all the time, but consistent within the game, than vice versa.
If the scaling of the game is that big of a deal to you you might consider picking up some CGI tool and making things to scale and then enjoying it that way. The game is the way it is right now to make it easier and IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with the scaling that detracts from the whole that is in the game. If the amount of people allowed to be in map was scaled down than they'd have to make more NPCs to make the maps, especially for DS9, appear busier.
Would you rather have NPC players who don't interact with you for your RP matters or more players on the same map who CAN RP with you?
In the end, that's all I see this being about. Wanting to RP in a to scale world. What if the actual sizes used were so unrealistically small you'd have to be hobbits to move down the corridors?
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You seem offended. If so, I apologize. The reason I tagged your handle was because @repetitiveepic said something ridiculous about the game engine, and I was looking forward to you setting him straight. Again, I apologise for being such a horrible person and doing such a terrible thing as using your @ handle
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
You seem offended. If so, I apologize. The reason I tagged your handle was because @repetitiveepic said something ridiculous about the game engine, and I was looking forward to you setting him straight. Again, I apologise for being such a horrible person and doing such a terrible thing as using your @ handle
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Not really, since I don't do those missions all too often. I'd honestly rather the DS9 I visit more often be the proper scale.
I don't like it but at this point DS9 can't be correctly scaled. K-7 would be easier to get right. But my number one gripe remains the Scimitar.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I like my capital ships to be capital ships, if I wanted to buzz around like a world war 2 fighter I'd play X-Wing.
My character Tsin'xing
A smaller DS9 might make this problem worse, as there are no avenues in which a larger ship would be able to fly through the station. i.e. more ships won't fit, but that won't stop them from trying to fly through the arms/rings.
That to me, is the most awesome thing you can do with your starship, fly it through the rings. It is one of the reasons I have a defiant on every fed, and fed-rom toon.
However I believe the chances of this happening are about the same as getting proper small craft interiors.
I loath the current interior however. Not because it's so bad, but because it's not DS9. People asking for little changes (like adding a security or assay office) mustn't be able to see just how non-DS9 it is. As soon as a little office is added bang goes our chance for a ESD style Taco revamp from whitebox scratch.
If I remember correctly it was said that there will be a full revamp but not for the launch of the new season. So I'm predicting an interior revamp, with a reworking of the Dominion FE series for 11.5.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Makes sense to me. To be honest, it would be all but impossible to make everyone happy on this matter. Do a poll and prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
And without doing the math, my guess is that some of the ships we use as players could end up being bigger than DS9 to scale?
The same can be said of Shuttles, which are massively oversized (The Delta Flyer for example, is nearly the size of Voyager's entire aft section).
Couldn't they just made a similar design to ESD? I mean the "real earth" is not to scale either but at least ships dont land on it directly. Perhaps the real DS9 could be in background with a shipyard next to it so people would dock in the shipyard with the background of DS9 instead of what it is now.
In theory, all content involving DS9 could have been shuttle scale with a Defiant as the BIG ship. Shuttle content didn't exist when the game launched.
Honestly, most of the gameplay involving DS9's exterior is going out the window with the Cardassian revamp. And if you're trying to sneak around -- on or off the station (or Empok Nor), shuttles make more sense. They're kind of an underleveraged mechanic in STO.
It'd be kinda cool actually if the social zone around DS9 switched us to shuttles and we saw NPCs costumed as the players' main ships at the perimeter. There is no shuttle social zone in game. Which probably impedes shuttle sales. But DS9 kind of makes sense as a zone where you'd need to switch to shuttles to dock. Maybe an exception could be made for small full size craft. That's an interesting technical question, if you could have a zone that switches people to shuttles UNLESS they're flying Defiant, BoP, T'Varo, or JHAS.
But most of the station approaches in DS9 were runabouts and raiders. The Defiant would also look impressive if the map were shuttle scale.
Now, you'd have an oversized DS9 in the new Mirror event, sure. But you could just limit the scale bending to that queued instance where there's a lot going on and cite it as scale bending for the encounter like the show did. That's part of it too: the show had a variable scale for the assets depending on what looked good. So why does STO need a fixed scale? Why can't DS9's scale vary to the content use of it?