Am I the only one who genuinely thought Sela was right? These are people who we know are going to destroy us, we know they actively hate us. Kagren's change of character also makes little sense, since he knows what's at stake. Didn't he say earlier that "Honor, duty, Freedom. These will only be words if we fail." Truth be told, most of the time, I thought the Iconians had legitimately used mind control on him, the change was that jarring. Also, if not by SHEER DUMB LUCK we obtained the world heart, (which, by the way is Iconian Technology, which, if I remember correctly, we were not supposed to bring back ANYWAY.) then what would you have said when you returned home? "Hey guys, we, uh... We saved the Iconians, but they were peaceful then! Sorry about dooming the entire galaxy to eternal destruction and slavery!" Speaking about "Used to be peaceful" Are you going to betray us for the Undine because THEY "Used to be peaceful?" Do you think that saving 12 Iconians is more moral than saving TRILLIONS of lives? I believe Ambassador Spock said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." Tell me, do you think that several trillion beings need their lives less than the Iconians? Oh and don't forget the fact that you are committing treason against your own people! By the sheer definition of the word! "The crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government." That's exactly what you're doing by helping the Iconians! And don't forget that we have a force that almost conquered the galaxy, who held a grudge for over 200,000 years, and was dedicated to our complete and total destruction INSIDE OUR OWN BORDERS! When I first played this, after the BS with the world heart, I remember saying to myself, "I hope Jiro makes them bleed through the nose for this." Also, 1/11th of the Iconians will continue to prosecute the war, and the rest won't do ANYTHING to stop them! Also, "Give us a millennia or two? This means that our children and our children's children will have to fight and die against T'ket because they are too weak to keep (him?/her?) in line! And what if we manage to actually KILL T'ket? Are the Iconians going to re-ignite this war because of that? We know that they can hold grudges for an EXTREMELY long time over just one or two of them dying!
Now, that's not to say the mission doesn't have its good parts, the first part, the battle over Sol was good, and the design of Iconia was magnificent, as well as the resolution AFTER we come back with the world heart, was decent overall. And while I disagree with T'ket being left off the leash, it does explain why it's still there in the STF queue.
But...In the end, I would liked an option to follow the mission parameters to the letter. In my opinion, while it's not horrible, one could legitimately compare this to Star Trek:Insurrection.
the ending of the iconian war was a bit of a anti climax i was hoping we were not going to go back to the past and we would defeat the iconians in the present in a proper battle but thats just me what do did you guys think was it what you expected
if not want would have been a better ending
I would have rather just shot Sela on sight and not let her travel back in time. That would have been so much better than letting her ruin everything like she always does.
I honestly would have preferred the option to stun Sela before she could have killed the Iconians, that might well have prevented the Iconians from going into "war mode" against us. Yes would have had some temporal...consequences, but those could be dealt with.
For that matter, stunning her **after** she shot the Iconians, then handing her over to T'Ket and saying "Give this traitor what she deserves" and then going to Dewa III (Carrying the World Heart since T'Ket was carrying her sister) would have been legit as well in my opinion. Also would have temporal consequences, but who is to say T'Ket doesn't later go insane (she's halfway there even back then) and go rogue from the Whole, allowing for the war to start and still preserving (Pun, hah!) the Iconians?
As far as L'Miren and T'Ket though, something I consider really odd. Iconians are master genetic engineers, can even become semi-energy beings through their technology. So why did L'Miren never get her legs fixed? (Seems like her injury by Sela is why she has a spike in her ascended form). and why did T'Ket never have her arm regenerated? Was it cause those techniques were in the World Heart and no longer available to them?
No it wouldn't stop them. Why? Because it wasn't just T'ket who went into war mode. T'ket may have been the first and most adamant, but she wouldn't be the ONLY one. First, consider that if they really were just against Sela, why didn't they just kidnap her? Why didn't they just blow up Romulus? Why did the rest of the galaxy have to pay also? Especially Qo'nos! In the mission, their most ardent Supporter was a Klingon, and despite that, not only do they send the Undine to wipe out the Klingons, but they downright INVADE IT. Two out of the three Iconian STF's take place on and around Qo'nos! The Iconians would have attacked anyway, with the same ferocity. Sela was AT MOST an excuse to target Romulus specifically. Hell, if it weren't for Sela, we might have actually lost sooner. Their lust for revenge against her was so great, that I believe they waited all this time for Sela TO BE BORN and come to power, otherwise, they had so much firepower at their disposal that they might have taken over before we could even get into space. (remember, we've only been there for about 400 years, and they've been around OVER 200,000)
No it wouldn't stop them. Why? Because it wasn't just T'ket who went into war mode. T'ket may have been the first and most adamant, but she wouldn't be the ONLY one.
But she is. L'Miren said so. "With those of us who remain, you shall have peace."
No it wouldn't stop them. Why? Because it wasn't just T'ket who went into war mode. T'ket may have been the first and most adamant, but she wouldn't be the ONLY one.
But she is. L'Miren said so. "With those of us who remain, you shall have peace."
She is now that the world heart is back, and they actually went on a rampage already.
But I think if we had the opportunity to give them the world heart in that moment, things might have been very differently. They could have restored their civilization a lot sooner and might have forgotten their revenge. (Maybe the would have eradicated the Icobar and whoever else was complicit in the attacks).
But the problem is - it might also mean that the world 200,00 years later would look very different. Their might be a big Iconian Empire stretching from New Iconia (formerly known as Tau Dewa) across the Galaxy and no Federation, Klingon Empire, Cardassian Union, Ferengi Alliance, Romulan Star Empire, Romulan Republic or Dominion anywhere to be seen. Maybe that wouldn't have been a bad alternative reality. But it would probably not contain us.
I guess we can be lucky the whole deal was a predestination paradox and we couldn't actually TRIBBLE up history - just get what we needed to bring an end to the Iconian War.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
No it wouldn't stop them. Why? Because it wasn't just T'ket who went into war mode. T'ket may have been the first and most adamant, but she wouldn't be the ONLY one.
But she is. L'Miren said so. "With those of us who remain, you shall have peace."
No she wasn't, The rest gave up the grudge, but they ALL went to war, otherwise this "Peace" wouldn't have solved anything, because the only one at war would have still had all the forces, and would have crushed us immediately. Otherwise, if M'tara wasn't at war, why would we need to kill her? Plus, if I remember correctly, The Iconian which killed the high Council at the end of "Surface tension" was NOT T'ket. (looked much different) I'm not totally sure which one it was, but I really don't think it was T'ket.
No it wouldn't stop them. Why? Because it wasn't just T'ket who went into war mode. T'ket may have been the first and most adamant, but she wouldn't be the ONLY one.
But she is. L'Miren said so. "With those of us who remain, you shall have peace."
She is now that the world heart is back, and they actually went on a rampage already.
But I think if we had the opportunity to give them the world heart in that moment, things might have been very differently. They could have restored their civilization a lot sooner and might have forgotten their revenge. (Maybe the would have eradicated the Icobar and whoever else was complicit in the attacks).
But the problem is - it might also mean that the world 200,00 years later would look very different. Their might be a big Iconian Empire stretching from New Iconia (formerly known as Tau Dewa) across the Galaxy and no Federation, Klingon Empire, Cardassian Union, Ferengi Alliance, Romulan Star Empire, Romulan Republic or Dominion anywhere to be seen. Maybe that wouldn't have been a bad alternative reality. But it would probably not contain us.
I guess we can be lucky the whole deal was a predestination paradox and we couldn't actually TRIBBLE up history - just get what we needed to bring an end to the Iconian War.
Actually, If we did, the Iconians wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have been able to use the timeship to go back and try to kill them. Remember, WE saved them, but we would need a reason to go back to eventually save them. If Sela didn't attack the Iconians, they would not have sought revenge AGAINST HER. So they wouldn't have waited 200,000 years to blow up Romulus. There would have been no Iconian war, because the galaxy Pre-fed was much more vulnerable, and their tech was much less powerful. If the Iconians attacked earlier, we couldn't have found or built the timeship, which would have ended up dooming the Iconians. (Still, on a strategic level, it was foolhardy to let them go if you didn't have that magic 8-ball.)
Actually, If we did, the Iconians wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have been able to use the timeship to go back and try to kill them. Remember, WE saved them, but we would need a reason to go back to eventually save them. If Sela didn't attack the Iconians, they would not have sought revenge AGAINST HER. So they wouldn't have waited 200,000 years to blow up Romulus. There would have been no Iconian war, because the galaxy Pre-fed was much more vulnerable, and their tech was much less powerful. If the Iconians attacked earlier, we couldn't have found or built the timeship, which would have ended up dooming the Iconians. (Still, on a strategic level, it was foolhardy to let them go if you didn't have that magic 8-ball.)
Hmm. You bring up something interesting - if we hadn'T been there, would L'Miren have been able to retrieve the World Heart and erase the database? It almost seems she wouldn'T have. Which means the attackers would have had it... That would probably also have significant timeline changes.
Erasing the Iconians meant a lot of technology development apparently happened much later than it did (Source: the Butterfly episode), but jump-starting it for those forces by giving the Iconian tech...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Actually, If we did, the Iconians wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have been able to use the timeship to go back and try to kill them. Remember, WE saved them, but we would need a reason to go back to eventually save them. If Sela didn't attack the Iconians, they would not have sought revenge AGAINST HER. So they wouldn't have waited 200,000 years to blow up Romulus. There would have been no Iconian war, because the galaxy Pre-fed was much more vulnerable, and their tech was much less powerful. If the Iconians attacked earlier, we couldn't have found or built the timeship, which would have ended up dooming the Iconians. (Still, on a strategic level, it was foolhardy to let them go if you didn't have that magic 8-ball.)
Hmm. You bring up something interesting - if we hadn'T been there, would L'Miren have been able to retrieve the World Heart and erase the database? It almost seems she wouldn'T have. Which means the attackers would have had it... That would probably also have significant timeline changes.
Erasing the Iconians meant a lot of technology development apparently happened much later than it did (Source: the Butterfly episode), but jump-starting it for those forces by giving the Iconian tech...
Not only that, but it would have left the Iconians themselves to their fate. Hell, I still say if Sela hadn't attacked them the way she did, the Iconians would be dead.
The most important lesson I learned? If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
It's not her fault she shot that iconian, the iconians had tried to exterminate her people.
This line is emblematic of one of many of modern society's problems: moral relativism taken beyond the point of reason.
YES, IT'S HER FAULT. SHE MADE A CHOICE. SHE PULLED THE TRIGGER. Everything else is psychobabble.
It doesn't matter what you've been through, it doesn't matter how much TRIBBLE the universe has dumped on you, it doesn't matter what injustices you may or may not have suffered. You're responsible for the choices you make. Sela chose to gun down defenseless innocents. Which she'd done thousands of times before. Just like the surviving Iconians, who chose to become genocidal monsters. They're responsible for that choice. They murdered people who were 200,000 years removed from the crimes committed against them.
And they got to walk away.
The one morsel of justice in this arc was the death of M'tera, in response to her personally murdering the Preserver Archivist, and likely having given the order to nuke the rest from orbit. And we're supposed to feel bad about that.
"The Iconian War" is, as a famous Vulcan once said, "based on a moral inversion". THE BAD GUYS WON. The Iconians murdered people until they got what they wanted. The crimes of the wicked, war criminals far more horrifying than any found in real life, go unpunished.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
We can at least shoot Sela! *Watches the Romulan plasma bolt pass through Sela's head as if she wasn't there*
What?? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Hang on a minute... they did kidnap Sela... in the last Romulan mission... Why didn't T'Ket do evil things to her during the period she and her crew were on that Elachi base.
Hang on a minute... they did kidnap Sela... in the last Romulan mission... Why didn't T'Ket do evil things to her during the period she and her crew were on that Elachi base.
Yet another example of how terrible the plotting was. The Iconians remember you after some prompting, but not the specific person who tried to kill them.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Basically all they did was reuse the end of the Dominion war. Unoriginal .... Oh well we have a orb back and if we mess up you can just go back and kill us all next time ...so yea we will play nice now....
Was anti climatic, predictable and boring ... somehow i new right after i beamed down it would end that way.
Would have been more movie like to have beamed down fought our way to the gateway blew it up and then left . future would have been restored and would have felt like a true Star trek movie ending.
If you're having to reach that far to justify the plot, you're just making our case against the writing quality for us. Weren't you one of the ones who was saying the Undine in "Scorpion" could tell humanoids apart and its attack was one of malice rather than fear?
Basically all they did was reuse the end of the Dominion war.
More like misuse the end of the Dominion War. The Alliance could easily have won a military victory in 2375, maybe even saved some of the Cardassians. And per "Facility 4028" the Founder's opinion of "solids" didn't change because of Odo's act of compassion: she only surrendered--and agreed to a prison term, underline--so that Odo would carry the cure to the Great Link.
Whereas here it's Mass Murderer says, "Oh, you have our MacGuffin! Cool! Thanks! We're leaving now, our Psycho Sister is your problem, kthxbye", cue fireworks.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
They are multiple Iconians, it doesn't necessarily follow that all of them hang out together or that T'Ket was in charge of the guys who captured Sela.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Yeah, that's probably a better explanation. For a moment I forgot that the Iconians didn't know you were time travelers.
Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Yeah, that's probably a better explanation. For a moment I forgot that the Iconians didn't know you were time travelers.
Interesting aspect here - do the Iconians realize nowthat the Sela 200,00 years ago is the same as the Sela today?
I could imagine that T'Ket might be extra frustrated by the fact that she has reason to believe she can't hurt the original perpretrator directly. But if he realizes that Sela is the very same, he might actually change his angle of attack and go after her directly, especially if he has trouble gathering forces that are still willing to fight with him.
But that's all speculation. It is of course also possible that the writers weren't really thinking things through.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Yeah, that's probably a better explanation. For a moment I forgot that the Iconians didn't know you were time travelers.
Interesting aspect here - do the Iconians realize nowthat the Sela 200,00 years ago is the same as the Sela today?
I could imagine that T'Ket might be extra frustrated by the fact that she has reason to believe she can't hurt the original perpretrator directly. But if he realizes that Sela is the very same, he might actually change his angle of attack and go after her directly, especially if he has trouble gathering forces that are still willing to fight with him.
But that's all speculation. It is of course also possible that the writers weren't really thinking things through.
Is't T'Ket female? OR at least referred to as 'sister' by the others?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Yeah, that's probably a better explanation. For a moment I forgot that the Iconians didn't know you were time travelers.
Interesting aspect here - do the Iconians realize nowthat the Sela 200,00 years ago is the same as the Sela today?
I could imagine that T'Ket might be extra frustrated by the fact that she has reason to believe she can't hurt the original perpretrator directly. But if he realizes that Sela is the very same, he might actually change his angle of attack and go after her directly, especially if he has trouble gathering forces that are still willing to fight with him.
But that's all speculation. It is of course also possible that the writers weren't really thinking things through.
Is't T'Ket female? OR at least referred to as 'sister' by the others?
The voice acting suggests male, Trendy said they are all female, Taco said they were meant to have no gender. And I get confused with the she's and he's. T'Ket for me sounds male, but I know in game the pronouns used indicate female for every Iconian.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Plus, if I remember correctly, The Iconian which killed the high Council at the end of "Surface tension" was NOT T'ket. (looked much different) I'm not totally sure which one it was, but I really don't think it was T'ket.
That was M'Tara in the High Council. Wich is my beaf with the whole thing how this arc was handled. The whole mystery with The Other was soo forced.
She encounter the player 3 times: Council, Preservers Arhive and on her Flagship. And not even one time she wouldve thought "Ohh, that creature looks a bit familiar. How about I'll teleport him closer to take a better look". C'mon...
Same goes with their "The Whole" mantra rambleling on the Kayna moon or from the console info from T'Ket's intalation. I mean the player DIDNT played that big of a role in their society. And even as a saviour is debatable, becouse, even if The Other DID help, in the end THEIR technoloy, as in the Gateways, ultimately saved them. You, the player, dont even take them on your ship to provide their transport/escape. But w/e.
Other then that, the episodes gameplay and the finale that was based on canon premise, as Picard hinted well about the Iconians, were just wonderful. In trully the Federation way but also respecting klingon values about honor.
Speaking of T'Ket, since this hasn't been answered, since she's still at war with the Alpha and Beta quadrants, how much of a threat does she still command? Out of the stated "billions" of Heralds, how many are hers, and would M'Tara's former Heralds go with her? Even at a maximum sixth of the size it was, the Iconian army is still strong enough to wipe the floor with us, potentially. Then again, L'Miren seemed to think or indicate we could handle T'Ket.
Hmmm... perhaps L'Miren will help the Alliance powers with some Herald tech in the future. Altho that could be that all these damaged/destroyed Herald Ships around Q'nos and ESD will get salvaged Who knows...
Plus, if I remember correctly, The Iconian which killed the high Council at the end of "Surface tension" was NOT T'ket. (looked much different) I'm not totally sure which one it was, but I really don't think it was T'ket.
That was M'Tara in the High Council. Wich is my beaf with the whole thing how this arc was handled. The whole mystery with The Other was soo forced.
She encounter the player 3 times: Council, Preservers Arhive and on her Flagship. And not even one time she wouldve thought "Ohh, that creature looks a bit familiar. How about I'll teleport him closer to take a better look". C'mon...
Same goes with their "The Whole" mantra rambleling on the Kayna moon or from the console info from T'Ket's intalation. I mean the player DIDNT played that big of a role in their society. And even as a saviour is debatable, becouse, even if The Other DID help, in the end THEIR technoloy, as in the Gateways, ultimately saved them. You, the player, dont even take them on your ship to provide their transport/escape. But w/e.
Actually, after a week and a half of mulling through the ideas, I think the idea of beaming them to YOUR ship and taking them to the future is actually the best idea out of all of them. (even though I still support the idea of killing them if no other alternatives (like this) were brought up). By taking them with you to the future, you still get the all-around better situation of the "dead" timeline, the Iconians aren't threatening to destroy the galaxy, and millions are saved. Furthermore, if my theory about the Iconians is correct and they just had an axe to grind against the galaxy, (which is probably alleviated some by escaping in YOUR ship, instead of using their own tech) then we can keep an eye on them, stop them if they look to be re-building their war machine before they become a threat to the galaxy again, and if worst comes to worst and we have to kill them later, it will be much easier to do so, because they will still be flesh and blood. Or, if the consensus opinion is correct (I have a habit of NOT being the consensus, see: only sane man) then the Iconians should be able to quickly assimilate into Galactic society anyway without having to show them our fancy laser beams, and will probably also be approached for alliances rather quickly from many sides. (Those gateways can improve MANY, MANY things for galactic society as a whole)
The only thing I dont like is that any choice you took always would have the same ending, I wish the devs could have written 3 endings, so if you want to send Sela to the other side of life or to stun her or to handle her to the Iconian, each choice should have its own ending, the episode ends either way so lets keep an open ending with multiple choices. Maybe in of those choices the war with the Iconians is averted, in other we end been slaves of the iconians and in the other we make the Iconians to surrender or we would destroy the soul stone.
Seek and ye shall find. Ask and ye shall receive. Rabboni
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" (Benjamin Franklin).
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
The only thing I dont like is that any choice you took always would have the same ending, I wish the devs could have written 3 endings, so if you want to send Sela to the other side of life or to stun her or to handle her to the Iconian, each choice should have its own ending, the episode ends either way so lets keep an open ending with multiple choices. Maybe in of those choices the war with the Iconians is averted, in other we end been slaves of the iconians and in the other we make the Iconians to surrender or we would destroy the soul stone.
The issue with that is that it starts branching far too much and prevents using any of the story elements in future storylines. From a future writing prospective it's far easier to keep everyone in the same plot area.
Also holding the World Heart hostage wouldn't work, they teleported you onto their ship and as others have pointed out, would have put up with the Soul Heart hitting the ground to ensure it's safety.
^Would they have put up with you attaching an antimatter charge on a dead-man switch to their MacGuffin?
They don't surrender, it blows. They kill you, it blows.
No free passes for mass murderers.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
Now, that's not to say the mission doesn't have its good parts, the first part, the battle over Sol was good, and the design of Iconia was magnificent, as well as the resolution AFTER we come back with the world heart, was decent overall. And while I disagree with T'ket being left off the leash, it does explain why it's still there in the STF queue.
But...In the end, I would liked an option to follow the mission parameters to the letter. In my opinion, while it's not horrible, one could legitimately compare this to Star Trek:Insurrection.
I would have rather just shot Sela on sight and not let her travel back in time. That would have been so much better than letting her ruin everything like she always does.
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
For that matter, stunning her **after** she shot the Iconians, then handing her over to T'Ket and saying "Give this traitor what she deserves" and then going to Dewa III (Carrying the World Heart since T'Ket was carrying her sister) would have been legit as well in my opinion. Also would have temporal consequences, but who is to say T'Ket doesn't later go insane (she's halfway there even back then) and go rogue from the Whole, allowing for the war to start and still preserving (Pun, hah!) the Iconians?
As far as L'Miren and T'Ket though, something I consider really odd. Iconians are master genetic engineers, can even become semi-energy beings through their technology. So why did L'Miren never get her legs fixed? (Seems like her injury by Sela is why she has a spike in her ascended form). and why did T'Ket never have her arm regenerated? Was it cause those techniques were in the World Heart and no longer available to them?
But I think if we had the opportunity to give them the world heart in that moment, things might have been very differently. They could have restored their civilization a lot sooner and might have forgotten their revenge. (Maybe the would have eradicated the Icobar and whoever else was complicit in the attacks).
But the problem is - it might also mean that the world 200,00 years later would look very different. Their might be a big Iconian Empire stretching from New Iconia (formerly known as Tau Dewa) across the Galaxy and no Federation, Klingon Empire, Cardassian Union, Ferengi Alliance, Romulan Star Empire, Romulan Republic or Dominion anywhere to be seen. Maybe that wouldn't have been a bad alternative reality. But it would probably not contain us.
I guess we can be lucky the whole deal was a predestination paradox and we couldn't actually TRIBBLE up history - just get what we needed to bring an end to the Iconian War.
No she wasn't, The rest gave up the grudge, but they ALL went to war, otherwise this "Peace" wouldn't have solved anything, because the only one at war would have still had all the forces, and would have crushed us immediately. Otherwise, if M'tara wasn't at war, why would we need to kill her? Plus, if I remember correctly, The Iconian which killed the high Council at the end of "Surface tension" was NOT T'ket. (looked much different) I'm not totally sure which one it was, but I really don't think it was T'ket.
Actually, If we did, the Iconians wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have been able to use the timeship to go back and try to kill them. Remember, WE saved them, but we would need a reason to go back to eventually save them. If Sela didn't attack the Iconians, they would not have sought revenge AGAINST HER. So they wouldn't have waited 200,000 years to blow up Romulus. There would have been no Iconian war, because the galaxy Pre-fed was much more vulnerable, and their tech was much less powerful. If the Iconians attacked earlier, we couldn't have found or built the timeship, which would have ended up dooming the Iconians. (Still, on a strategic level, it was foolhardy to let them go if you didn't have that magic 8-ball.)
Hmm. You bring up something interesting - if we hadn'T been there, would L'Miren have been able to retrieve the World Heart and erase the database? It almost seems she wouldn'T have. Which means the attackers would have had it... That would probably also have significant timeline changes.
Erasing the Iconians meant a lot of technology development apparently happened much later than it did (Source: the Butterfly episode), but jump-starting it for those forces by giving the Iconian tech...
Not only that, but it would have left the Iconians themselves to their fate. Hell, I still say if Sela hadn't attacked them the way she did, the Iconians would be dead.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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What?? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Yet another example of how terrible the plotting was. The Iconians remember you after some prompting, but not the specific person who tried to kill them.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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My character Tsin'xing
Was anti climatic, predictable and boring ... somehow i new right after i beamed down it would end that way.
Would have been more movie like to have beamed down fought our way to the gateway blew it up and then left . future would have been restored and would have felt like a true Star trek movie ending.
If you're having to reach that far to justify the plot, you're just making our case against the writing quality for us. Weren't you one of the ones who was saying the Undine in "Scorpion" could tell humanoids apart and its attack was one of malice rather than fear?
More like misuse the end of the Dominion War. The Alliance could easily have won a military victory in 2375, maybe even saved some of the Cardassians. And per "Facility 4028" the Founder's opinion of "solids" didn't change because of Odo's act of compassion: she only surrendered--and agreed to a prison term, underline--so that Odo would carry the cure to the Great Link.
Whereas here it's Mass Murderer says, "Oh, you have our MacGuffin! Cool! Thanks! We're leaving now, our Psycho Sister is your problem, kthxbye", cue fireworks.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Just because Sela was imprisoned doesn't mean that T'Ket had a reason to directly hurt her. If he had just wanted to hurt her physically, she could have had it a lot easier. But T'Ket said destroying one world wasn't enough to punish Sela.
I think the only reason they imprisoned her was to ensure she would live to see the utter destruction of everything she cared about.
Though there is also a chance that the Iconians realized that Sela looked exactly like their murderer 200,000 years ago - but they probably know that Romulans don't get 200,00 years old, so whoever this Sela person is, she can't be the original. Unless there were time travel involved, but they took care of the Krenim.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
Interesting aspect here - do the Iconians realize nowthat the Sela 200,00 years ago is the same as the Sela today?
I could imagine that T'Ket might be extra frustrated by the fact that she has reason to believe she can't hurt the original perpretrator directly. But if he realizes that Sela is the very same, he might actually change his angle of attack and go after her directly, especially if he has trouble gathering forces that are still willing to fight with him.
But that's all speculation. It is of course also possible that the writers weren't really thinking things through.
Is't T'Ket female? OR at least referred to as 'sister' by the others?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The voice acting suggests male, Trendy said they are all female, Taco said they were meant to have no gender. And I get confused with the she's and he's. T'Ket for me sounds male, but I know in game the pronouns used indicate female for every Iconian.
That was M'Tara in the High Council. Wich is my beaf with the whole thing how this arc was handled. The whole mystery with The Other was soo forced.
She encounter the player 3 times: Council, Preservers Arhive and on her Flagship. And not even one time she wouldve thought "Ohh, that creature looks a bit familiar. How about I'll teleport him closer to take a better look". C'mon...
Same goes with their "The Whole" mantra rambleling on the Kayna moon or from the console info from T'Ket's intalation. I mean the player DIDNT played that big of a role in their society. And even as a saviour is debatable, becouse, even if The Other DID help, in the end THEIR technoloy, as in the Gateways, ultimately saved them. You, the player, dont even take them on your ship to provide their transport/escape. But w/e.
Other then that, the episodes gameplay and the finale that was based on canon premise, as Picard hinted well about the Iconians, were just wonderful. In trully the Federation way but also respecting klingon values about honor.
Overall I nice story arc. Kudos to Cryptic.
Hmmm... perhaps L'Miren will help the Alliance powers with some Herald tech
Actually, after a week and a half of mulling through the ideas, I think the idea of beaming them to YOUR ship and taking them to the future is actually the best idea out of all of them. (even though I still support the idea of killing them if no other alternatives (like this) were brought up). By taking them with you to the future, you still get the all-around better situation of the "dead" timeline, the Iconians aren't threatening to destroy the galaxy, and millions are saved. Furthermore, if my theory about the Iconians is correct and they just had an axe to grind against the galaxy, (which is probably alleviated some by escaping in YOUR ship, instead of using their own tech) then we can keep an eye on them, stop them if they look to be re-building their war machine before they become a threat to the galaxy again, and if worst comes to worst and we have to kill them later, it will be much easier to do so, because they will still be flesh and blood. Or, if the consensus opinion is correct (I have a habit of NOT being the consensus, see: only sane man) then the Iconians should be able to quickly assimilate into Galactic society anyway without having to show them our fancy laser beams, and will probably also be approached for alliances rather quickly from many sides. (Those gateways can improve MANY, MANY things for galactic society as a whole)
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
The issue with that is that it starts branching far too much and prevents using any of the story elements in future storylines. From a future writing prospective it's far easier to keep everyone in the same plot area.
Also holding the World Heart hostage wouldn't work, they teleported you onto their ship and as others have pointed out, would have put up with the Soul Heart hitting the ground to ensure it's safety.
They don't surrender, it blows. They kill you, it blows.
No free passes for mass murderers.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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