In all honesty, I disliked the ending. It felt so Anti-Climatic many of us were waiting for an epic fight for over 5 years.
The Iconian arc is like the classic movie Brazil.
It doesn't give the audience the climax they're accustomed to. In fact it does the opposite and makes a MUCH better point in doing it (which you only really see in the last minute or two of its run-time).
I like this analogy a lot - it didn't go where I was expecting and was stronger for it
When we appear in the Academy, i don't remember if we "poof" in with the same FX,
When I played it - there was a gate effect to the Academy followed by looking around and Picard Maneuvering, so it was a pretty quick poof. There may have been a little time on the Iconian ship before we got poofed but probably not much. Judging by the cutscene and the mission - the Iconians are, as a species, still not good about considering other's perspective.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
You must read this post with Frieza's voice in your head.
200,000 years in the past and everybody, including the aliens whoms species are long extinct, speak English 198,500 years(give or take) before it's even created?! Am I the only one who noticed this?!
And if you can't detect the sarcasm in this post, spout something Kagran blahblahblah, Iconians are blahblahblah or anything to that effect, I'm going to blow your planet up.
The next question is, was that sarcasm?
Universal translators? We've already met the Iconians in the present, so maybe that gave our computers enough to figure out the language.
@mustrumridcully0: So, because the Iconians said, "Oops, my bad," we're suddenly supposed to forgive and forget? I will remind you that despite Odo’s act of compassion the female Changeling still served 34 years in prison for crimes against sentience.
Well, you're certainly free to fly to Iconia and arrest them. If you even make it inside the sphere, that is...
@mustrumridcully0: So, because the Iconians said, "Oops, my bad," we're suddenly supposed to forgive and forget? I will remind you that despite Odo’s act of compassion the female Changeling still served 34 years in prison for crimes against sentience.
Well, you're certainly free to fly to Iconia and arrest them. If you even make it inside the sphere, that is...
Well said - it's not like this was a battle won through military force and we were dictating at the point of the sword.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
All that said, I do believe Cryptic has telegraphed some of the plot points for Season 11. We know there's supposed to be a new planet as an adventure zone; the ending of "Midnight" suggests that's going to be Iconia, rebuilt using the World Heart. Though they originally said not to bother them for another thousand years or so, presumably something's going to go wrong, leading the Iconians to reach out to their "Other" (i.e. the player) for assistance. That's also probably why they left T'Ket as a menace, not so much to justify the existing queues (as others have suggested) as to provide fodder for future storylines and queues.
The next season will be a Mirror Invasion, with the MU people armed with Future! tech. There's a space adventure zone featuring Leela in the badlands. I don't recall hearing about a ground adventure zone.
The ending brought more questions than answers for me.
What now with regards to the Iconians? Will the Iconians return to hiding? Will the Alliance attempt to open diplomatic relations with the Iconians, well outside of T'Ket since it's pretty clear where that is headed.
Why is Sela not being hung for war crimes on New Romulus?
Not necessarily the ending but will the Dominion be more involved going forward or is it an enemy of my enemy situation?
The ending brought more questions than answers for me.
What now with regards to the Iconians? Will the Iconians return to hiding? Will the Alliance attempt to open diplomatic relations with the Iconians, well outside of T'Ket since it's pretty clear where that is headed.
They made it quite clear. They want to be left alone for the next few thousand years. We won't be seeing them again in this game. T'Ket is a different story, of course. The question is, is he all on his own now or does he still have ships at his disposal.
As for the Dominion, it's clearly the latter. Bilateral relationships will continue to be icy. That can only ever change if the Founders somehow change their entire way of thinking in regards to us Solids.
The ending brought more questions than answers for me.
What now with regards to the Iconians? Will the Iconians return to hiding? Will the Alliance attempt to open diplomatic relations with the Iconians, well outside of T'Ket since it's pretty clear where that is headed.
They made it quite clear. They want to be left alone for the next few thousand years. We won't be seeing them again in this game. T'Ket is a different story, of course. The question is, is he all on his own now or does he still have ships at his disposal.
As for the Dominion, it's clearly the latter. Bilateral relationships will continue to be icy. That can only ever change if the Founders somehow change their entire way of thinking in regards to us Solids.
The one thing that could get the Dominion's attention--but I don't know that it would work in the short run--is to see a reflection of themselves and all their sins, in the Iconians. Even the ruining of the Heralds is a reminder of the Founders' sins. I am not sure the Founders would be smart enough to see themselves as the Little Iconians and to actually recognize themselves as evil. Self-delusion rarely does.
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Here is a question to everyone, legend says the Iconians are "Demons of Air and Darkness". Do you think that is true? Knowing what we know now about the past Iconians.
Or another simpler possibility is that Kagran told T'Ket the species of Sela before immediately remembering that they didn't exist at this time when T'Ket and L'Miren asked "What is a Romulan? We have no data on such species" and the General just went "Oh, nevermind, but if you see a annoying pointy-eared, two-eyed alien with outrageous clothes and ridges on her head with 5 more aliens with her, please tell them to find me, thanks."
That often happens in time-travelling stories where one character unconsciously says or does something that exists in their time but not in the one they're currently, like how Sisko tapped his badge in Tribbles and Tribulations to try and communicate.
Its actually quite possible Kagran was being interrogated during that time he was there and was never more the wiser. While many people think of torture when they think of people/organizations gaining intelligence from others. One of the easiest means of gaining intel is to behave as someones friend and simply let them feel safe and welcomed by their captors (ie being allowed to freely walk around and come and go as they please).
The Iconians of 200k years ago might not have had any reason to be aggressive, but they werent stupid and were surely aware that chroniton particles were involved with time travel. Even if they themselves couldnt take part in time travel. For a strange alien never observed before by the Iconians to show up on their door step covered in chronitons would of set off red flags. Kagran was with them for two weeks walking around and interacting with the Heralds and Iconians. Had they locked him in a cell I can imagine him being lock jawed. But I wouldnt be surprised if the Iconians knew more than he realized he had given up in casual conversation and that the Iconians were more than aware of his starship.
the ending kinda felt like a scooby doo episode we chase around the iconians and even into the past pull off a rubber mask and it was sela all along.
"I wouldve gotten away with it if it werent for those pesky officers and their tribble to"
I really like the mission tbh it was the finest point of the whole fiasco that we know as the iconian war.
also was that kurland making a quote from the charge of the light brigade the charge of the 600?
at first i thought shon but on second and third playthough i relised that voice sounded just like...kurlands.
would be fitting since were moving to DS9 in S11 that the captain of that station would say something epic setting the an overtone to what wil come.
@mustrumridcully0: So, because the Iconians said, "Oops, my bad," we're suddenly supposed to forgive and forget? I will remind you that despite Odo’s act of compassion the female Changeling still served 34 years in prison for crimes against sentience.
Well, you're certainly free to fly to Iconia and arrest them. If you even make it inside the sphere, that is...
Well said - it's not like this was a battle won through military force and we were dictating at the point of the sword.
We were holding the future of their entire civilisation in our hands, and were identified as the Other whom they owe their survival to.
Simply giving that up without negotiating is absurd.
Here is a question to everyone, legend says the Iconians are "Demons of Air and Darkness". Do you think that is true? Knowing what we know now about the past Iconians.
I suspect the Demons reputation grew during their time on Dewa III as they transformed themselves. Both past memories of the Iconians (the peaceful version and the demon version) are therefore accurate, just of different points of their history, and the telling of the two different parts of the story got conflated over the millennia into one.
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We were holding the future of their entire civilisation in our hands, and were identified as the Other whom they owe their survival to.
Simply giving that up without negotiating is absurd.
Except for the fact we had absolutely zero chance to winning if we withheld the heart.
He had zero room to negotiate, even with the heart, as we lack any sort of advantage or chance of winning.
Exactly. This isn't the same as the end of the Dominion War where the Alliance was victorious and had the upper hand and it was only about not having to put boots on the grounds for more pointless bloodshed.
We didn't win this war. They simply decided to stop killing us. We were in absolutely no position to demand anything.
@mustrumridcully0: So, because the Iconians said, "Oops, my bad," we're suddenly supposed to forgive and forget? I will remind you that despite Odo’s act of compassion the female Changeling still served 34 years in prison for crimes against sentience.
No. Regardless of their motives the Iconians have billions of innocent lives on their hands, people that never considered raising a hand against them in their lives. No free passes for mass murder. Now, if they want to pay their debt to society by using the Heralds to rebuild the galaxy and by stopping T’Ket for us, that's one thing. But let's not forget that there IS a debt.
As for Sela? She gets the firing squad. She's been nothing but trouble for the galaxy since she was four gorram years old.
Sure, ok, you go and tell the side that was literally about to annihilate Earth and effectively end this entire conflict and only agreed not to do so on the promise that they'd be left alone for as long as they wished that they have to answer for the lives the war cost. Let's see how that plays out.
We didn't win the war, we survived long enough to give them a reason not to destroy us all, lets leave it at that.
We were holding the future of their entire civilisation in our hands, and were identified as the Other whom they owe their survival to.
Simply giving that up without negotiating is absurd.
Except for the fact we had absolutely zero chance to winning if we withheld the heart.
He had zero room to negotiate, even with the heart, as we lack any sort of advantage or chance of winning.
Exactly. This isn't the same as the end of the Dominion War where the Alliance was victorious and had the upper hand and it was only about not having to put boots on the grounds for more pointless bloodshed.
We didn't win this war. They simply decided to stop killing us. We were in absolutely no position to demand anything.
Don't forget these Iconians still had their vaporization abilities working - they could always risk having the Heart bounce once or twice on the carpet and remove the ant yelling at gods.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
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TRIBBLE. A, we now have the Dominion involved. By the Iconians' own admission, that means military victory is possible: "Sphere of Influence" explicitly states the Iconians can't fight us AND the Dominion.
B, there's always the carrot and stick approach, made possible by the Iconians' own failure to clean up their leftovers. Grab a few dozen Omega particles from the Solanae Sphere and threaten to detonate them in the Iconia system. They don't surrender, they're trapped for good: I rather doubt their subspace magic would do them any good with no subspace for several light-years around. Option two, they surrender and start cleaning up the mess they made, and they can have Sela for a chew toy.
Either way, we win.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
TRIBBLE. A, we now have the Dominion involved. By the Iconians' own admission, that means military victory is possible: "Sphere of Influence" explicitly states the Iconians can't fight us AND the Dominion.
B, there's always the carrot and stick approach, made possible by the Iconians' own failure to clean up their leftovers. Grab a few dozen Omega particles from the Solanae Sphere and threaten to detonate them in the Iconia system. They don't surrender, they're trapped for good: I rather doubt their subspace magic would do them any good with no subspace for several light-years around. Option two, they surrender and start cleaning up the mess they made, and they can have Sela for a chew toy.
Either way, we win.
Actually, the way it was worded in Sphere of Influence wasn't clear on whether they would win or not, just that they wanted to ensure a power base in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants (which they do have now btw) before attacking the Dominion.
Plus even with the Dominion on our side we have suffered massive loses previously, (66.6% of the combined alliance fleet in one battle) meaning that we can't put up a full offensive, in the event we win (even without massive loses) there's no guarantee that the Dominion won't restart their attack on the Alpha and Beta Quadrants afterwards.
TRIBBLE. A, we now have the Dominion involved. By the Iconians' own admission, that means military victory is possible: "Sphere of Influence" explicitly states the Iconians can't fight us AND the Dominion.
Yes, but that was before they reduced us to a rag tag fleet.
Do you really want to get even more billions of people killed just so you can put some Iconians in jail?
The Iconians may fear the Dominion because they see a reflection of themselves in the Dominion's structure. (And depending on the age of the Dominion, the Founders may have even learned some of their tactics from lore about what the Iconians did after the destruction of their homeworld.)
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The Iconians may fear the Dominion because they see a reflection of themselves in the Dominion's structure. (And depending on the age of the Dominion, the Founders may have even learned some of their tactics from lore about what the Iconians did after the destruction of their homeworld.)
Plus fighting them could be difficult seeing as the Dominion can replace losses fairly quickly, and as the only planet they really care about is whichever one the Founders are living on it means they can just fortify that one and let the Heralds spend time and troops on planets that probably won't be that big a loss to the Dominion freeing the Jem'Hadar to attack them whenever they feel like it.
So it probably makes sense for the Iconians to have all their other military campaigns finished before dealing with the Dominion so it doesn't turn into a quagmire.
"Romulan" is derived from "Romulus" which is a name from ancient human mythology. "Rihannsu" (the Romulans' name for themselves and their old homeworld) might be Iconian in origin but "Romulan" wouldn't be.
Do you think the Iconians are really speaking English, or it's just what our Universal Translators let us hear?
Maybe the 25th century Translators picked up that the Iconion word which literally translates to "Foul-Traitors-That-Need-To-Be-Eradicated" is their word for Romulan...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
First, huge kudos to the art department! Absolutely breathtaking work! Ancient Iconia (and the past Iconians themselves) were S*p*e*c*t*a*c*u*l*a*r*! (Fireworks intended).
also was that kurland making a quote from the charge of the light brigade the charge of the 600?
at first i thought shon but on second and third playthough i relised that voice sounded just like...kurlands.
I don't know who it was, but it was the blandest reading of "The Charge of the light Brigade" that I have ever heard. The only way they could have made it more emotionless would have been to get Steven Wright to read it...but at least then it would have been funny. Here it was just meh. And I love that poem, too.
Ending was classic Trek, you did good Cryptic
SPOILERS
We all met at the Academy and and sang Kumbaya as fireworks went off above us. Very Nice Indeed, All we needed was the Voyager flying around too (I kid...
I like how, T'Ket, is not quite on board with everything. It sets things up as a possible future adversarial encounter with her. Very nice !
Ties things up quite nicely if you ask me, while leaving things open for future stuff.
NOW, About those Krenim and that timeship weapon..... It's a tad too powerful to just let them sail home in it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we built it, (the coalition that is), so is it ours to dismantle ?
Cause I don't see us letting it continue to exist, it's too dangerous.
Also, - Wonder if the Iconians will let us to continue using their gates......
It will be fun to see What Sela does next and how things unfold.
Comments
I like this analogy a lot - it didn't go where I was expecting and was stronger for it
When I played it - there was a gate effect to the Academy followed by looking around and Picard Maneuvering, so it was a pretty quick poof. There may have been a little time on the Iconian ship before we got poofed but probably not much. Judging by the cutscene and the mission - the Iconians are, as a species, still not good about considering other's perspective.
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Servitors will still be snatching bodies from subspace I bet.
Nothing was actually resolved
This is why I hate time-travel scripts, it makes the writer lazy
Universal translators? We've already met the Iconians in the present, so maybe that gave our computers enough to figure out the language.
Well said - it's not like this was a battle won through military force and we were dictating at the point of the sword.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
The next season will be a Mirror Invasion, with the MU people armed with Future! tech. There's a space adventure zone featuring Leela in the badlands. I don't recall hearing about a ground adventure zone.
What now with regards to the Iconians? Will the Iconians return to hiding? Will the Alliance attempt to open diplomatic relations with the Iconians, well outside of T'Ket since it's pretty clear where that is headed.
Why is Sela not being hung for war crimes on New Romulus?
Not necessarily the ending but will the Dominion be more involved going forward or is it an enemy of my enemy situation?
As for the Dominion, it's clearly the latter. Bilateral relationships will continue to be icy. That can only ever change if the Founders somehow change their entire way of thinking in regards to us Solids.
The one thing that could get the Dominion's attention--but I don't know that it would work in the short run--is to see a reflection of themselves and all their sins, in the Iconians. Even the ruining of the Heralds is a reminder of the Founders' sins. I am not sure the Founders would be smart enough to see themselves as the Little Iconians and to actually recognize themselves as evil. Self-delusion rarely does.
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Its actually quite possible Kagran was being interrogated during that time he was there and was never more the wiser. While many people think of torture when they think of people/organizations gaining intelligence from others. One of the easiest means of gaining intel is to behave as someones friend and simply let them feel safe and welcomed by their captors (ie being allowed to freely walk around and come and go as they please).
The Iconians of 200k years ago might not have had any reason to be aggressive, but they werent stupid and were surely aware that chroniton particles were involved with time travel. Even if they themselves couldnt take part in time travel. For a strange alien never observed before by the Iconians to show up on their door step covered in chronitons would of set off red flags. Kagran was with them for two weeks walking around and interacting with the Heralds and Iconians. Had they locked him in a cell I can imagine him being lock jawed. But I wouldnt be surprised if the Iconians knew more than he realized he had given up in casual conversation and that the Iconians were more than aware of his starship.
"I wouldve gotten away with it if it werent for those pesky officers and their tribble to"
I really like the mission tbh it was the finest point of the whole fiasco that we know as the iconian war.
also was that kurland making a quote from the charge of the light brigade the charge of the 600?
at first i thought shon but on second and third playthough i relised that voice sounded just like...kurlands.
would be fitting since were moving to DS9 in S11 that the captain of that station would say something epic setting the an overtone to what wil come.
We were holding the future of their entire civilisation in our hands, and were identified as the Other whom they owe their survival to.
Simply giving that up without negotiating is absurd.
I suspect the Demons reputation grew during their time on Dewa III as they transformed themselves. Both past memories of the Iconians (the peaceful version and the demon version) are therefore accurate, just of different points of their history, and the telling of the two different parts of the story got conflated over the millennia into one.
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Exactly. This isn't the same as the end of the Dominion War where the Alliance was victorious and had the upper hand and it was only about not having to put boots on the grounds for more pointless bloodshed.
We didn't win this war. They simply decided to stop killing us. We were in absolutely no position to demand anything.
Sure, ok, you go and tell the side that was literally about to annihilate Earth and effectively end this entire conflict and only agreed not to do so on the promise that they'd be left alone for as long as they wished that they have to answer for the lives the war cost. Let's see how that plays out.
We didn't win the war, we survived long enough to give them a reason not to destroy us all, lets leave it at that.
Don't forget these Iconians still had their vaporization abilities working - they could always risk having the Heart bounce once or twice on the carpet and remove the ant yelling at gods.
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My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
B, there's always the carrot and stick approach, made possible by the Iconians' own failure to clean up their leftovers. Grab a few dozen Omega particles from the Solanae Sphere and threaten to detonate them in the Iconia system. They don't surrender, they're trapped for good: I rather doubt their subspace magic would do them any good with no subspace for several light-years around. Option two, they surrender and start cleaning up the mess they made, and they can have Sela for a chew toy.
Either way, we win.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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Actually, the way it was worded in Sphere of Influence wasn't clear on whether they would win or not, just that they wanted to ensure a power base in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants (which they do have now btw) before attacking the Dominion.
Plus even with the Dominion on our side we have suffered massive loses previously, (66.6% of the combined alliance fleet in one battle) meaning that we can't put up a full offensive, in the event we win (even without massive loses) there's no guarantee that the Dominion won't restart their attack on the Alpha and Beta Quadrants afterwards.
Yes, but that was before they reduced us to a rag tag fleet.
Do you really want to get even more billions of people killed just so you can put some Iconians in jail?
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So it probably makes sense for the Iconians to have all their other military campaigns finished before dealing with the Dominion so it doesn't turn into a quagmire.
Do you think the Iconians are really speaking English, or it's just what our Universal Translators let us hear?
Maybe the 25th century Translators picked up that the Iconion word which literally translates to "Foul-Traitors-That-Need-To-Be-Eradicated" is their word for Romulan...
I don't know who it was, but it was the blandest reading of "The Charge of the light Brigade" that I have ever heard. The only way they could have made it more emotionless would have been to get Steven Wright to read it...but at least then it would have been funny. Here it was just meh. And I love that poem, too.
SPOILERS
We all met at the Academy and and sang Kumbaya as fireworks went off above us. Very Nice Indeed, All we needed was the Voyager flying around too
I like how, T'Ket, is not quite on board with everything. It sets things up as a possible future adversarial encounter with her. Very nice !
Ties things up quite nicely if you ask me, while leaving things open for future stuff.
NOW, About those Krenim and that timeship weapon..... It's a tad too powerful to just let them sail home in it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we built it, (the coalition that is), so is it ours to dismantle ?
Cause I don't see us letting it continue to exist, it's too dangerous.
Also, - Wonder if the Iconians will let us to continue using their gates......
It will be fun to see What Sela does next and how things unfold.