I'm going to ask you again, what would happen if the Gorn decided to be independent?
They would have to fight, obviously. And if they win, the empire would respect their strength even more than they already do. If not, they'll at least respect their courage. Either way, true Klingons wouldn't be too upset about it.
Nice fanfiction. But my point is, yes. They'd have to fight. Hence, they are conquered subjects.
Because he also had to appease hardliners at home and the chance to do that by increasing the empire's might without having to expend KDF ressources and troops was a perfect opportunity. He killed two birds with one stone, basically.
You make no sense given your own rhetoric. What true Klingon warrior appeases bloodthirsty thugs?
He had a point to make and he made it. Why not demonstrate to the Federation, his allies, that he is as magnanamous as he is quick to act on threats to the galaxy?
]There was no pretense! They were publically revealed to be Undine. Do you honestly think that didn't include showing them reversing to their true forms? Wouldn't be very convincing if it didn't.
Furthermore, the fact alone that they targeted specific members of the government proves that they already had to have known who the impostors were.
I'm using the clear precident that no faction in the entire galaxy had so many infiltrators. But somehow the Gorn had it's entire government except for the king replaced. That is entirely suspicious, and leaves the Gorn conveniently weak enough to be bullied into being a vassal state.
Guilty? She attemped to undo genocide commited by Iconians against her people. Sela lost everything with the destruction of Romulus, RSE crumbled, most of the romulan population died in a blink of an eye and the rest formed Republic under the watchful eye of the Federation and KDF (and remember that D'Tan is also a result of Federation messing with the RSE internal affairs) and on top of that the galaxy is about to get conquered by Iconians. The situation looks pretty desperate to me and she didin't have much of a choice here. Any possible solution would be worth a shot in that situation.
And that shot caused the destruction of Romulus. She's guilty, all right. You may feel sympathetic to her reasons, but it doesn't change the fact: she shot Iconians, T'Ket got mad, which resulted in the destruction of Romulus. Her attempt at undoing the genocide in fact caused it.
Surprised you're not chiming in with me to counter the ignorance of our "friend" lizwei. I guess its just not worth bothering?
I have no idea why you're calling me ignorant.
I don't necesarilly mind insults, but I do mind insults without another argument, so either explain yourself, or go back to your bridge, you dreary troll.
I think its clear who's trolling on this subject thanks. your so called argument brings no evidence so I am not inclined to recognize it as an argument.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
But that's besides the point. The facts are Sela is a wanted criminal by the Romulan Republic, and by extension it's Federation masters. She would logically be immediately arrested and imprisoned, end of story.
Federation Masters my TRIBBLE. The Romulan republic never ceded sovereignty last I checked.
They ceded sovereignty the moment D'Tan put his people under the command of the Federation and KDF and became forever reliant on them as a result.
D'Tan is a simpering coward who doesn't care about the future of the Romulan people as long as he remains in power.
Ya the quislings that serve their people's Klingon and federation enemies are beneath all contempt.
Sela did her thing for the actual romulans, the romulan culture, dignity, history.
Sela could be the last real romulan. Murdering her would be completing the Iconians genocide of that people.
Your idea of what constitutes a "Real" Romulan is highly flawed.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Guilty? She attemped to undo genocide commited by Iconians against her people. Sela lost everything with the destruction of Romulus, RSE crumbled, most of the romulan population died in a blink of an eye and the rest formed Republic under the watchful eye of the Federation and KDF (and remember that D'Tan is also a result of Federation messing with the RSE internal affairs) and on top of that the galaxy is about to get conquered by Iconians. The situation looks pretty desperate to me and she didin't have much of a choice here. Any possible solution would be worth a shot in that situation.
And that shot caused the destruction of Romulus. She's guilty, all right. You may feel sympathetic to her reasons, but it doesn't change the fact: she shot Iconians, T'Ket got mad, which resulted in the destruction of Romulus. Her attempt at undoing the genocide in fact caused it.
Surprised you're not chiming in with me to counter the ignorance of our "friend" lizwei. I guess its just not worth bothering?
I have no idea why you're calling me ignorant.
I don't necesarilly mind insults, but I do mind insults without another argument, so either explain yourself, or go back to your bridge, you dreary troll.
I think its clear who's trolling on this subject thanks. your so called argument brings no evidence so I am not inclined to recognize it as an argument.
Either discuss the point you want to make, or shut up. I have no time for whatever petty personal feud you have with me.
So if we use the Annorax weapon on Sela, will the war have never happened?
No, I think Romulus and Spock would still be around and we'd still fight the Iconians. Isn't what Sela that made them angry at the "lesser" races. It was Sela that made them really angry at the Romulans.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Nice fanfiction. But my point is, yes. They'd have to fight. Hence, they are conquered subjects.
That's not your point. Your point was that the Klingons invaded for lebensraum, which simply isn't supported by the game's official canon.
Yes, they're conquered. Almost all alien species in the empire are. It's nothing new at all.
You make no sense given your own rhetoric. What true Klingon warrior appeases bloodthirsty thugs?
The one who doesn't want bloodthirsty thugs to rule the empire and doing god knows what with their power?
I'm using the clear precident that no faction in the entire galaxy had so many infiltrators.
That's not quite true. They didn't know at that point, but Starfleet Intelligence later admitted that there might be about 30+ Undine infiltrators in the high echelons of Starfleet and the Federation government. So there's nothing suspicious about the infiltration of the Gorn.
Guilty? She attemped to undo genocide commited by Iconians against her people. Sela lost everything with the destruction of Romulus, RSE crumbled, most of the romulan population died in a blink of an eye and the rest formed Republic under the watchful eye of the Federation and KDF (and remember that D'Tan is also a result of Federation messing with the RSE internal affairs) and on top of that the galaxy is about to get conquered by Iconians. The situation looks pretty desperate to me and she didin't have much of a choice here. Any possible solution would be worth a shot in that situation.
And that shot caused the destruction of Romulus. She's guilty, all right. You may feel sympathetic to her reasons, but it doesn't change the fact: she shot Iconians, T'Ket got mad, which resulted in the destruction of Romulus. Her attempt at undoing the genocide in fact caused it.
Surprised you're not chiming in with me to counter the ignorance of our "friend" lizwei. I guess its just not worth bothering?
I have no idea why you're calling me ignorant.
I don't necesarilly mind insults, but I do mind insults without another argument, so either explain yourself, or go back to your bridge, you dreary troll.
I think its clear who's trolling on this subject thanks. your so called argument brings no evidence so I am not inclined to recognize it as an argument.
Either discuss the point you want to make, or shut up. I have no time for whatever petty personal feud you have with me.
If you think I'm some sorta idiot with a crazy "personal feud" then don't bother responding to my posts.
I don't even know you in game FYI and nor to I wish to after how rude and stupid you've acted.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
But that's besides the point. The facts are Sela is a wanted criminal by the Romulan Republic, and by extension it's Federation masters. She would logically be immediately arrested and imprisoned, end of story.
Federation Masters my TRIBBLE. The Romulan republic never ceded sovereignty last I checked.
They ceded sovereignty the moment D'Tan put his people under the command of the Federation and KDF and became forever reliant on them as a result.
D'Tan is a simpering coward who doesn't care about the future of the Romulan people as long as he remains in power.
Ya the quislings that serve their people's Klingon and federation enemies are beneath all contempt.
Sela did her thing for the actual romulans, the romulan culture, dignity, history.
Sela could be the last real romulan. Murdering her would be completing the Iconians genocide of that people.
Your idea of what constitutes a "Real" Romulan is highly flawed.
Pretty much this. It's a no true Scotsman fallacy. Who is to say the Romulan Republic are not real Romulans? They are all Romulans by race and they still have their Romulan culture, they just happen to not be murderous psychopaths like Sela. That isn't a cultural issue, as much as it is a personality issue. If Sela wasn't inherently evil, she wouldn't have caused the mass destruction of her race. Sure people can say, she was destined to do it; but, in the end, she had free will and chose to set everything in motion as a direct result of her own individual actions. It all goes right back to her, no matter how you spin it; Sela, in that one point in time, deciding to commit murder, because she is a sociopath. Sure, she'll feel sorry about it because she finally realizes she caused the greatest disaster in the galaxy; but, she's still a murdering sociopath in the end. You can't say she didn't mean to kill anyone or that it as an accident, she did it deliberately and willingly. It doesn't matter if she was too small minded to grasp the extent of the consequences, she committed a vicious crime, that inevitably resulted in the deaths of billions.
Pretty much this. It's a no true Scotsman fallacy. ... of billions.
True, it is a NTSF ...but then you turned around and made one of your own by saying that Sela and Romulans like her aren't 'real' Romulans
If one wants to talk in terms about cultural trends however, the Republic is extremely abnormal. Whether or not they 'still have their Romulan culture' is itself highly debatable considering they emulate the mannerisms, ideals, and policies of the reunificationists. Remember, Romulans appeared considerable numbers across Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9 and even appeared in VOY-and almost always expressed cultural ideals counter to those under which the Republic now operates. These are the folks who euthanize children with birth defects, who have planned to exterminate humans as a species, for whom spying on one's coworkers and backstabbing for advancement have been taken for granted in civilian and military life for centuries. Remember, Sela herself is the daughter of a starfleet prisoner of war forced into concubinage-The Star Empire and its inhabitants have a well-earned negative reputation. D'tan and the Republic are quite the outlier when taken in that context.
Sela may have (unknowingly) created a situation that led to the deaths of billions, but at the same time she's also indirectly responsible for saving the Iconians in the first place by coming to everyone's rescue with a Dominion Fleet-without which we wouldn't have been able to get through to the portal. Also for consideration, she was only doing what the leaders of the alliance already agreed was necessary despite the moral issues which were brought up at the time it was agreed to go through with it. Kagran himself stated that it didn't matter if it was honorable or moral or not-it was necessary and no amount of 11th-hour retcons or hamfisted bludgeoning of the player outside the head about how much like the federation they were is going to change that the rest of alliance command signed off on that and share culpability with Sela.
Additionally, the Iconians were already set to go on their path of genocide and slavery before Sela pulled the trigger-T'ket's dialogue makes that clear. And the notion that she could have conceivably drawn down the ire of the Iconians on Romulans is pretty absurd, as has been pointed out before. T'ket had no way of knowing her species (since it didn't exist yet) and the destruction of Romulus eons latter as part of a personal vendetta against Sela flies apart in the face of the fact that her career was actively helped by the Iconians and they even had her in custody for an extended period of time without taking revenge. Not to mention the fact that the scene makes absolutely no sense if you are playing as a Romulan yourself. It was shoddily slapped together and it shows.
Some powers helped the Alliance at the very end. Of the traditional powers of the Alpha & Beta Quadrants, only the still weak Cardassians helped. [...] The Ferengi didn't come despite Grand Nagus Rom being friendly to the Federation. Everyone else just let the Feds, KDF, RR just eat it.
Your example doesnt work here....Here Ill correct it for you. Its as if the cops did a thorough investigation after busting a drug addict and then following their information back to your gang, staking out your house where youre dealing drugs until they had reasonable suspicion to get a warrant. After they got that warrant (J'mpok giving the go ahead). They kicked in your door. Had you not been selling drugs, the cops would of never come a knocking.
Except that J'mpok in this case would be the Chief of Police, not the Judge... he can't give himself a warrant. In order to get the proverbial warrant he'd have to appeal to the body in place to manage the Alliance (the equivalent to the UN in your W/WMD reference). And the evidence he used to acquire the warrant? Not provided. So no.
This is the part where I get to toss a cup of gasoline on the fire by pointing out that quelling Gorn rebellions was a doff mission.
I don't think the KDF would be quelling them if they really respected Gorn autonomy.
So what. Both KDF & Feds have DOFF missions dealing with malcontents, discontent groups residing in the opposing faction, even to the point of "Instigate Defection" DOFF missions. Hell, KDF still has DOFF missions to capture Starfleet personnel so we can sell them off to Orion Slavers or to go to a Forced Labor Batallion / Penal Colony
Difference being we aren't talking about an opposing faction, we're talking about the KDF quelling Gorn resistance. So Gorn fighting back against being KDF vassals. So not opposing faction, but the same faction.
I can tell you haven't played both factions, if so, not much if at all.
There are generic DOFF missions that deal with "Separatists" and other malcontent groups residing in the other faction. Just merely rewording of the same things of the same mission for the 2 factions.
And personally, I have no problem with crushing Gorn separatists. Just like those occasional bouts of Klingons fighting each other. Just like the Heralds attacking Qo'nos. I actually encourage it. It means Klingon warriors won't have to go far to find combat.
The fact of the matter is still simply this: The Gorn officially are subordinate to the Klingon Empire. You roll your Gorn, you are fighting on behalf of the Empire. You will even fight on some occasions anyone opposing the Empire from within, whether they're Klingon or even Gorn.
Important lessons I have learned from this: If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start!
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
Important lessons I have learned from this: If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start!
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
Guilty? She attemped to undo genocide commited by Iconians against her people. Sela lost everything with the destruction of Romulus,
You seem to be missing a beat here...or maybe the entire concerto. Regardless of what you may think about the events on Iconia, Sela is guilty of innumerable counts of murder, torture, attempted genocide and other war crimes/crimes against sentience. She is, basically, Female Space Hitler. There's no shortage of reasons for her to stop breathing.
As for what happened on Iconia: any reasonable person, or even a Klingon, would have realized that fundamental assumptions necessary to the mission were no longer operational and changed their minds. Sela, of course, was neither.
She had only one thing in mind, revenge and that tunnel vision fuelled by rage and anger is what destroyed Romulus in the end when she opened fire on the Iconians, she could not see the bigger picture and was clearly not thinking in a rational manner
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Important lessons I have learned from this: If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start!
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
All we know about the Iconian mind is tied to their inability to time travel. I don't think we have any in game canon as to if their memories degrade over time like a human's would if they could live over two hundred thousand years. The only piece of other lore is a little quip on one of the council members in the foundry that she misses her mate most of all. It's probably not canon, but it hits me in the feels to think that she has been missing her love for that long.
I also still have some questions as to if the Iconians were looking for the Other, or trying to cause events that would cause the Other to show up. They seemed to point out the chronotron radiation in their scans, but did they extrapolate what time the Other came from?
Many questions, few answers. I just don't want to see Sela walk from this.
Some powers helped the Alliance at the very end. Of the traditional powers of the Alpha & Beta Quadrants, only the still weak Cardassians helped. [...] The Ferengi didn't come despite Grand Nagus Rom being friendly to the Federation. Everyone else just let the Feds, KDF, RR just eat it.
Ahem:
Notice the ship at the bottom left.
Ahh, cool, so they sent **a** ship!
Of course they only sent **a** ship! It's obvious we didn't have the latinum to pay for the entire fleet. THEN, the Iconians would have been screwed!
Sela's crimes http://sto.gamepedia.com/Sela
Attempts to destabilize the Klingon Empire, disrupt the Khitomer Accords and sabotage Ambassador Spock's Unification movement in the 2360s.
Contact with the Hirogen, who lend her their military support in exchange for hunting rights in the Star Empire.
“Turning Point”: Deploys the Tal Shiar to hunt Romulans Republic members and Remans Resistance Members.
“Empress Sela”: Holds peace conference as a cover for an attack on Vulcan.
“Shadow Play”: War propaganda. Blaming the destrution of a world on the Republic.
“Cloak and Dagger”: She clearly wasn't blind to all the elachi attacks. She was even part of this one.
“Mind Game”: Kidnapping and brainwashing of people.
“Cutting the Cord”: Attacks on Remans.
“Uneasy Allies”: Escaping Republic custody.
She wasn't blind to Hakeev and the Tal'shiar actions, she was part of them, and behind a lot of the things they did.
She was part of the Elachi attacks, which she threw blame on the Republic for.
Multiple attacks on Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Republic members.
Predestination paradox or not, she still commited a lot of crimes and allowed a lot of awful things to happen under her command. And should be punished for it.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Remember, Romulans appeared considerable numbers across Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9 and even appeared in VOY-and almost always expressed cultural ideals counter to those under which the Republic now operates.
Please don't compare the TOS Romulans to to TNG era TOS Klingon ripoffs they became.
After playing it I have a bigger question.... Why do those floating ring props the Iconians use have "Star Trek" written on them in Iconian?
What? Is there a canon Iconian alphabet somewhere?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Even at her most unreasonably vengeful, she was probably not unreasonable enough to excuse herself out of this blatant evidence. There's no way her mind could twist what she experienced into someone else's fault this time. It was unavoidable, and she realized this almost instantly.
Of course she could blame someone else. Sociopaths always can.
It's T'ket's fault. Time travel babble aside it was the Iconian's destruction of Romulus that made her do it. She couldn't know when it happened that she'd be traveling back 200K years. Besides, what Sela did on Iconia pales in comparison.
Or...wait...it's YOUR fault. Yeah, YOU. You brought her back in time, after all. She didn't even know you were going to do that until she showed up with the Dominion ships. She wasn't adequately briefed on the mission. You should have stopped her.
Are these rationalizations utter codswallop? Of course! But that's how sociopaths think.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
And compared to the destruction of an entire civilization with evidence on the time protected data core, that they know of, makes everything her side did pale in comparison.
Interesting moral relativism though.
Swiping from Wikipedia (just to be honest), actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. "The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty." There was no intent to wipe out a civilization, even the Iconian one. What happened was an accident. If there were a court in which the Tuterians could plead their case, they would have an excellent one for "civil liability", or reparations as I believe they're called on the national level. But there's no crime here. Bad outcomes do not imply criminal culpability, or even malpractice.
As for some other points above, without quoting, what Team Hail Mary was under orders to do in the past was predicated on the assumption that the Iconians of 200,000 years ago were equivalent to the Iconians of the present day. The fact that this was not true was why you didn't do it: it would have been wrong. If a Klingon could see that shooting people wasn't the answer....
Again interesting moral relativism. Tell that to those in jail for manslaughter.
Wasn't really a good time to try and take Sela into custody. She had a fleet of dominion ships at her disposal and the alliance was already pretty much decimated from the Iconian war. Attempting to take her into custody would just have led to more bloodshed and I think the alliance had already had it's fill of that.
Comments
Nice fanfiction. But my point is, yes. They'd have to fight. Hence, they are conquered subjects.
You make no sense given your own rhetoric. What true Klingon warrior appeases bloodthirsty thugs?
He had a point to make and he made it. Why not demonstrate to the Federation, his allies, that he is as magnanamous as he is quick to act on threats to the galaxy?
I'm using the clear precident that no faction in the entire galaxy had so many infiltrators. But somehow the Gorn had it's entire government except for the king replaced. That is entirely suspicious, and leaves the Gorn conveniently weak enough to be bullied into being a vassal state.
I think its clear who's trolling on this subject thanks. your so called argument brings no evidence so I am not inclined to recognize it as an argument.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Your idea of what constitutes a "Real" Romulan is highly flawed.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Either discuss the point you want to make, or shut up. I have no time for whatever petty personal feud you have with me.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Yes, they're conquered. Almost all alien species in the empire are. It's nothing new at all.
The one who doesn't want bloodthirsty thugs to rule the empire and doing god knows what with their power?
That's not quite true. They didn't know at that point, but Starfleet Intelligence later admitted that there might be about 30+ Undine infiltrators in the high echelons of Starfleet and the Federation government. So there's nothing suspicious about the infiltration of the Gorn.
If you think I'm some sorta idiot with a crazy "personal feud" then don't bother responding to my posts.
I don't even know you in game FYI and nor to I wish to after how rude and stupid you've acted.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Pretty much this. It's a no true Scotsman fallacy. Who is to say the Romulan Republic are not real Romulans? They are all Romulans by race and they still have their Romulan culture, they just happen to not be murderous psychopaths like Sela. That isn't a cultural issue, as much as it is a personality issue. If Sela wasn't inherently evil, she wouldn't have caused the mass destruction of her race. Sure people can say, she was destined to do it; but, in the end, she had free will and chose to set everything in motion as a direct result of her own individual actions. It all goes right back to her, no matter how you spin it; Sela, in that one point in time, deciding to commit murder, because she is a sociopath. Sure, she'll feel sorry about it because she finally realizes she caused the greatest disaster in the galaxy; but, she's still a murdering sociopath in the end. You can't say she didn't mean to kill anyone or that it as an accident, she did it deliberately and willingly. It doesn't matter if she was too small minded to grasp the extent of the consequences, she committed a vicious crime, that inevitably resulted in the deaths of billions.
True, it is a NTSF ...but then you turned around and made one of your own by saying that Sela and Romulans like her aren't 'real' Romulans
If one wants to talk in terms about cultural trends however, the Republic is extremely abnormal. Whether or not they 'still have their Romulan culture' is itself highly debatable considering they emulate the mannerisms, ideals, and policies of the reunificationists. Remember, Romulans appeared considerable numbers across Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9 and even appeared in VOY-and almost always expressed cultural ideals counter to those under which the Republic now operates. These are the folks who euthanize children with birth defects, who have planned to exterminate humans as a species, for whom spying on one's coworkers and backstabbing for advancement have been taken for granted in civilian and military life for centuries. Remember, Sela herself is the daughter of a starfleet prisoner of war forced into concubinage-The Star Empire and its inhabitants have a well-earned negative reputation. D'tan and the Republic are quite the outlier when taken in that context.
Sela may have (unknowingly) created a situation that led to the deaths of billions, but at the same time she's also indirectly responsible for saving the Iconians in the first place by coming to everyone's rescue with a Dominion Fleet-without which we wouldn't have been able to get through to the portal. Also for consideration, she was only doing what the leaders of the alliance already agreed was necessary despite the moral issues which were brought up at the time it was agreed to go through with it. Kagran himself stated that it didn't matter if it was honorable or moral or not-it was necessary and no amount of 11th-hour retcons or hamfisted bludgeoning of the player outside the head about how much like the federation they were is going to change that the rest of alliance command signed off on that and share culpability with Sela.
Additionally, the Iconians were already set to go on their path of genocide and slavery before Sela pulled the trigger-T'ket's dialogue makes that clear. And the notion that she could have conceivably drawn down the ire of the Iconians on Romulans is pretty absurd, as has been pointed out before. T'ket had no way of knowing her species (since it didn't exist yet) and the destruction of Romulus eons latter as part of a personal vendetta against Sela flies apart in the face of the fact that her career was actively helped by the Iconians and they even had her in custody for an extended period of time without taking revenge. Not to mention the fact that the scene makes absolutely no sense if you are playing as a Romulan yourself. It was shoddily slapped together and it shows.
Ahh, cool, so they sent **a** ship!
I can tell you haven't played both factions, if so, not much if at all.
There are generic DOFF missions that deal with "Separatists" and other malcontent groups residing in the other faction. Just merely rewording of the same things of the same mission for the 2 factions.
And personally, I have no problem with crushing Gorn separatists. Just like those occasional bouts of Klingons fighting each other. Just like the Heralds attacking Qo'nos. I actually encourage it. It means Klingon warriors won't have to go far to find combat.
The fact of the matter is still simply this: The Gorn officially are subordinate to the Klingon Empire. You roll your Gorn, you are fighting on behalf of the Empire. You will even fight on some occasions anyone opposing the Empire from within, whether they're Klingon or even Gorn.
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
"When all Romulan worlds are ashes you have my permission to die."
She had only one thing in mind, revenge and that tunnel vision fuelled by rage and anger is what destroyed Romulus in the end when she opened fire on the Iconians, she could not see the bigger picture and was clearly not thinking in a rational manner
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
Probably correct, I bet we missed a nice villain monologue too.
All we know about the Iconian mind is tied to their inability to time travel. I don't think we have any in game canon as to if their memories degrade over time like a human's would if they could live over two hundred thousand years. The only piece of other lore is a little quip on one of the council members in the foundry that she misses her mate most of all. It's probably not canon, but it hits me in the feels to think that she has been missing her love for that long.
I also still have some questions as to if the Iconians were looking for the Other, or trying to cause events that would cause the Other to show up. They seemed to point out the chronotron radiation in their scans, but did they extrapolate what time the Other came from?
Many questions, few answers. I just don't want to see Sela walk from this.
Of course they only sent **a** ship! It's obvious we didn't have the latinum to pay for the entire fleet. THEN, the Iconians would have been screwed!
Attempts to destabilize the Klingon Empire, disrupt the Khitomer Accords and sabotage Ambassador Spock's Unification movement in the 2360s.
Contact with the Hirogen, who lend her their military support in exchange for hunting rights in the Star Empire.
“Turning Point”: Deploys the Tal Shiar to hunt Romulans Republic members and Remans Resistance Members.
“Empress Sela”: Holds peace conference as a cover for an attack on Vulcan.
“Shadow Play”: War propaganda. Blaming the destrution of a world on the Republic.
“Cloak and Dagger”: She clearly wasn't blind to all the elachi attacks. She was even part of this one.
“Mind Game”: Kidnapping and brainwashing of people.
“Cutting the Cord”: Attacks on Remans.
“Uneasy Allies”: Escaping Republic custody.
She wasn't blind to Hakeev and the Tal'shiar actions, she was part of them, and behind a lot of the things they did.
She was part of the Elachi attacks, which she threw blame on the Republic for.
Multiple attacks on Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Republic members.
Predestination paradox or not, she still commited a lot of crimes and allowed a lot of awful things to happen under her command. And should be punished for it.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Please don't compare the TOS Romulans to to TNG era TOS Klingon ripoffs they became.
My character Tsin'xing
What? Is there a canon Iconian alphabet somewhere?
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Of course she could blame someone else. Sociopaths always can.
It's T'ket's fault. Time travel babble aside it was the Iconian's destruction of Romulus that made her do it. She couldn't know when it happened that she'd be traveling back 200K years. Besides, what Sela did on Iconia pales in comparison.
Or...wait...it's YOUR fault. Yeah, YOU. You brought her back in time, after all. She didn't even know you were going to do that until she showed up with the Dominion ships. She wasn't adequately briefed on the mission. You should have stopped her.
Are these rationalizations utter codswallop? Of course! But that's how sociopaths think.
Probably because they didn't think someone would actually take the time and try to translate it and they just needed some text as a Filler?
My character Tsin'xing
Again interesting moral relativism. Tell that to those in jail for manslaughter.