Important lessons I have learned from this: If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start!
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
Guilty? She attemped to undo genocide commited by Iconians against her people. Sela lost everything with the destruction of Romulus,
You seem to be missing a beat here...or maybe the entire concerto. Regardless of what you may think about the events on Iconia, Sela is guilty of innumerable counts of murder, torture, attempted genocide and other war crimes/crimes against sentience. She is, basically, Female Space Hitler. There's no shortage of reasons for her to stop breathing.
As for what happened on Iconia: any reasonable person, or even a Klingon, would have realized that fundamental assumptions necessary to the mission were no longer operational and changed their minds. Sela, of course, was neither.
She had only one thing in mind, revenge and that tunnel vision fuelled by rage and anger is what destroyed Romulus in the end when she opened fire on the Iconians, she could not see the bigger picture and was clearly not thinking in a rational manner
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Important lessons I have learned from this: If you want something done right... KILL Sela before you start!
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
All we know about the Iconian mind is tied to their inability to time travel. I don't think we have any in game canon as to if their memories degrade over time like a human's would if they could live over two hundred thousand years. The only piece of other lore is a little quip on one of the council members in the foundry that she misses her mate most of all. It's probably not canon, but it hits me in the feels to think that she has been missing her love for that long.
I also still have some questions as to if the Iconians were looking for the Other, or trying to cause events that would cause the Other to show up. They seemed to point out the chronotron radiation in their scans, but did they extrapolate what time the Other came from?
Many questions, few answers. I just don't want to see Sela walk from this.
Some powers helped the Alliance at the very end. Of the traditional powers of the Alpha & Beta Quadrants, only the still weak Cardassians helped. [...] The Ferengi didn't come despite Grand Nagus Rom being friendly to the Federation. Everyone else just let the Feds, KDF, RR just eat it.
Ahem:
Notice the ship at the bottom left.
Ahh, cool, so they sent **a** ship!
Of course they only sent **a** ship! It's obvious we didn't have the latinum to pay for the entire fleet. THEN, the Iconians would have been screwed!
Sela's crimes http://sto.gamepedia.com/Sela
Attempts to destabilize the Klingon Empire, disrupt the Khitomer Accords and sabotage Ambassador Spock's Unification movement in the 2360s.
Contact with the Hirogen, who lend her their military support in exchange for hunting rights in the Star Empire.
“Turning Point”: Deploys the Tal Shiar to hunt Romulans Republic members and Remans Resistance Members.
“Empress Sela”: Holds peace conference as a cover for an attack on Vulcan.
“Shadow Play”: War propaganda. Blaming the destrution of a world on the Republic.
“Cloak and Dagger”: She clearly wasn't blind to all the elachi attacks. She was even part of this one.
“Mind Game”: Kidnapping and brainwashing of people.
“Cutting the Cord”: Attacks on Remans.
“Uneasy Allies”: Escaping Republic custody.
She wasn't blind to Hakeev and the Tal'shiar actions, she was part of them, and behind a lot of the things they did.
She was part of the Elachi attacks, which she threw blame on the Republic for.
Multiple attacks on Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Republic members.
Predestination paradox or not, she still commited a lot of crimes and allowed a lot of awful things to happen under her command. And should be punished for it.
"Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons." Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Remember, Romulans appeared considerable numbers across Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9 and even appeared in VOY-and almost always expressed cultural ideals counter to those under which the Republic now operates.
Please don't compare the TOS Romulans to to TNG era TOS Klingon ripoffs they became.
After playing it I have a bigger question.... Why do those floating ring props the Iconians use have "Star Trek" written on them in Iconian?
What? Is there a canon Iconian alphabet somewhere?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Even at her most unreasonably vengeful, she was probably not unreasonable enough to excuse herself out of this blatant evidence. There's no way her mind could twist what she experienced into someone else's fault this time. It was unavoidable, and she realized this almost instantly.
Of course she could blame someone else. Sociopaths always can.
It's T'ket's fault. Time travel babble aside it was the Iconian's destruction of Romulus that made her do it. She couldn't know when it happened that she'd be traveling back 200K years. Besides, what Sela did on Iconia pales in comparison.
Or...wait...it's YOUR fault. Yeah, YOU. You brought her back in time, after all. She didn't even know you were going to do that until she showed up with the Dominion ships. She wasn't adequately briefed on the mission. You should have stopped her.
Are these rationalizations utter codswallop? Of course! But that's how sociopaths think.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
War crimes have no jurisdiction. This is obviously necessary, since any war crime would always be legal in the view of the perpetrator.
And compared to the destruction of an entire civilization with evidence on the time protected data core, that they know of, makes everything her side did pale in comparison.
Interesting moral relativism though.
Swiping from Wikipedia (just to be honest), actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. "The act is not culpable unless the mind is guilty." There was no intent to wipe out a civilization, even the Iconian one. What happened was an accident. If there were a court in which the Tuterians could plead their case, they would have an excellent one for "civil liability", or reparations as I believe they're called on the national level. But there's no crime here. Bad outcomes do not imply criminal culpability, or even malpractice.
As for some other points above, without quoting, what Team Hail Mary was under orders to do in the past was predicated on the assumption that the Iconians of 200,000 years ago were equivalent to the Iconians of the present day. The fact that this was not true was why you didn't do it: it would have been wrong. If a Klingon could see that shooting people wasn't the answer....
Again interesting moral relativism. Tell that to those in jail for manslaughter.
Wasn't really a good time to try and take Sela into custody. She had a fleet of dominion ships at her disposal and the alliance was already pretty much decimated from the Iconian war. Attempting to take her into custody would just have led to more bloodshed and I think the alliance had already had it's fill of that.
Again interesting moral relativism. Tell that to those in jail for manslaughter.
Gladly, since even involuntary manslaughter requires a degree of mens rea.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
"While we deeply sympathize with Empress Sela's predicament, she has committed no crimes against the Dominion and we have no obligations to her. And as the Dominion has no judicial authority on this side of the wormhole, her fate is clearly for the alpha quadrant alliance to decide. In the spirit of friendship and co-operation, we remand custody of Sela to the Romulan Republic and recognize their authority in this matter. In these trying times, it is good to be working once again with our dear friends in the alpha quadrant."
I doubt very much the Dominion showed up just because Sela asked them nicely and started spreading fears of an Iconian invasion. She must have made some under the table deals with them. So they would be obligated to help her if she was going to make good on what ever concessions she made to get them to show up.
Also Sela herself said she always keeps a back door there's no way she walked into the heart of the federation without an escape plan in place.
"While we deeply sympathize with Empress Sela's predicament, she has committed no crimes against the Dominion and we have no obligations to her. And as the Dominion has no judicial authority on this side of the wormhole, her fate is clearly for the alpha quadrant alliance to decide. In the spirit of friendship and co-operation, we remand custody of Sela to the Romulan Republic and recognize their authority in this matter. In these trying times, it is good to be working once again with our dear friends in the alpha quadrant."
I instinctly read this in Weyoun's voice. My instincts were right.
It's already stated by Sela that they were not very open to negotiating with her and I quote "I was impressed with the strength and ferocity of their warriors. Now I'm in awe in the labyrinth that keeps you from seeing their leaders."
She must have offered something to get her foot in the door so to speak they clearly were not interested in talking with her.
The Dominion have never been very generous we've seen it countless times before where they offered something with a deceptive smile but intend to take everything in return.
To make a deal, you have something to offer. The only thing Sela could possibly offer is intel on the Iconians and alpha quadrant powers. If the Dominion really wanted that information, they couldn't be sure of its veracity (because this is Sela we're talking about) without a proper interrogation and mind probing which they undoubtedly have the methods for. Even if Sela freely gave accurate information, the Dominion is the kind of power who would use the brain-draining method just to be sure. Sela wouldn't put herself in the position of having her mind dumped into a blender (given that she's done that to her fellow Romulans and knows what it does to them) so she's left with nothing to offer in exchange for her safety.
Hard to say what she might offer , maybe her ties with the Romulan star Empire as a foot hold in the quadrant or maybe some borg technology. I can't say for sure given Romulans aren't exactly the most forthcoming of people.:P
Perhaps not but she will have prepared for treachery all the same better to catch her off guard than walk into well prepared plan and look the fool for trying.
But why should it? It also makes absolutely zero sense that knowing what we now know, our Captains, Sela and Kragan couldn't travel back to that same point in time again and alter events so that Romulus isn't destroyed.
Is the Krenim ship only 1 use?
If there isn't some kind of "temporal censorship" rule in place preventing you from re-visiting points in time you've already been to then every time you went back to a critical event you'd find fifty copies of yourself trying to fix whatever you got wrong.
No mulligans.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
Hard to say what she might offer , maybe her ties with the Romulan star Empire as a foot hold in the quadrant
Too far from the wormhole, and probably not that much space to work with. Plus it risks conflict with the Alpha Quadrant powers when they can blockade the wormhole.
or maybe some borg technology. I can't say for sure given Romulans aren't exactly the most forthcoming of people.:P
Assuming the Dominion is crazy enough to TRIBBLE around with Borg tech.
We went back in time to an event that we supposedly were involved in and there were no copies of us there already.
Because we only went back once.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
Well no, we didn't. We had already went back in time to that very same point. There's nothing stopping us from doing it again.
No, we had not "already" gone back. We went back once. That means there is one instance of Team Hail Mary in the past.
Post edited by dheffernan on
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
But why should it? It also makes absolutely zero sense that knowing what we now know, our Captains, Sela and Kragan couldn't travel back to that same point in time again and alter events so that Romulus isn't destroyed.
Is the Krenim ship only 1 use?
No, just believed to be subject to pre-destination paradoxes, as the characters discussed after the Iconians left Iconia. As weird as it might appear, from the perspective of the characters the fact that Romulus is destroyed is proof the Krenim timeship travel method will not be used to alter events so that Romulus isn't destroyed.
It's already stated by Sela that they were not very open to negotiating with her and I quote "I was impressed with the strength and ferocity of their warriors. Now I'm in awe in the labyrinth that keeps you from seeing their leaders."
She must have offered something to get her foot in the door so to speak they clearly were not interested in talking with her.
The Dominion have never been very generous we've seen it countless times before where they offered something with a deceptive smile but intend to take everything in return.
Well, the final message was Sela indicating that she was being attacked. Presumably Heralds showing up attacking something in Dominion space would be seen as an argument for Sela's cause.
Comments
I'm still not sure how T'Ket managed to remember she hated Romulans so much, but when they had Sela in custody didn't recognize her as the one who had caused the issue. Did the paperwork get fouled up? Why was she in prison rather than fired into a nearby blackhole?
"When all Romulan worlds are ashes you have my permission to die."
She had only one thing in mind, revenge and that tunnel vision fuelled by rage and anger is what destroyed Romulus in the end when she opened fire on the Iconians, she could not see the bigger picture and was clearly not thinking in a rational manner
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
If he recognized her at all, we know T'Ket wanted to see her or suffer - not kill her. So she was probably imprisoned to ensure she would feel helpless watching the horrors that would be visted on her people.
Though I guess the other question is - would you really remember someone's face you met 200,000 years ago?
Okay, it's kinda a useless questions, humans just don' live that long. I figure a human brain would simply be unable to hold that many memories, it would have to prune things... But the Iconians are naturally long-lived, and either way - you tend to remember stuff with strong emotional associations, and if Sela doesn't fit that description for T'Ket, who does? (I suppose a lot could happen in 200,000 years. If I was a 200,000 year old immortal, I might have thousands of pepole that were once the love of my life, my favorite child, my most hated rival, my best friend. But then, there are only 12 Iconians... And plenty of Heralds of unknown lifespan.)
But, the other aspect is - the Iconians might recognize that Sela looks like Sela - but they have no reason to assume it is Sela. So maybe they recognized her, and thought of her as a potential descendent of Sela, and thus picked her. But it would be useless to talk to her, since she wouldn't know anythnig about the Sela 200,000 years ago. (And in fact, she wouldn't have and deny any allegations against her.) We know they probably didn't talk to her about the Sela from 200,000 years ago, because otherwise Sela would have brought it up.
Probably correct, I bet we missed a nice villain monologue too.
All we know about the Iconian mind is tied to their inability to time travel. I don't think we have any in game canon as to if their memories degrade over time like a human's would if they could live over two hundred thousand years. The only piece of other lore is a little quip on one of the council members in the foundry that she misses her mate most of all. It's probably not canon, but it hits me in the feels to think that she has been missing her love for that long.
I also still have some questions as to if the Iconians were looking for the Other, or trying to cause events that would cause the Other to show up. They seemed to point out the chronotron radiation in their scans, but did they extrapolate what time the Other came from?
Many questions, few answers. I just don't want to see Sela walk from this.
Of course they only sent **a** ship! It's obvious we didn't have the latinum to pay for the entire fleet. THEN, the Iconians would have been screwed!
Attempts to destabilize the Klingon Empire, disrupt the Khitomer Accords and sabotage Ambassador Spock's Unification movement in the 2360s.
Contact with the Hirogen, who lend her their military support in exchange for hunting rights in the Star Empire.
“Turning Point”: Deploys the Tal Shiar to hunt Romulans Republic members and Remans Resistance Members.
“Empress Sela”: Holds peace conference as a cover for an attack on Vulcan.
“Shadow Play”: War propaganda. Blaming the destrution of a world on the Republic.
“Cloak and Dagger”: She clearly wasn't blind to all the elachi attacks. She was even part of this one.
“Mind Game”: Kidnapping and brainwashing of people.
“Cutting the Cord”: Attacks on Remans.
“Uneasy Allies”: Escaping Republic custody.
She wasn't blind to Hakeev and the Tal'shiar actions, she was part of them, and behind a lot of the things they did.
She was part of the Elachi attacks, which she threw blame on the Republic for.
Multiple attacks on Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Republic members.
Predestination paradox or not, she still commited a lot of crimes and allowed a lot of awful things to happen under her command. And should be punished for it.
Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
Please don't compare the TOS Romulans to to TNG era TOS Klingon ripoffs they became.
My character Tsin'xing
What? Is there a canon Iconian alphabet somewhere?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Of course she could blame someone else. Sociopaths always can.
It's T'ket's fault. Time travel babble aside it was the Iconian's destruction of Romulus that made her do it. She couldn't know when it happened that she'd be traveling back 200K years. Besides, what Sela did on Iconia pales in comparison.
Or...wait...it's YOUR fault. Yeah, YOU. You brought her back in time, after all. She didn't even know you were going to do that until she showed up with the Dominion ships. She wasn't adequately briefed on the mission. You should have stopped her.
Are these rationalizations utter codswallop? Of course! But that's how sociopaths think.
Probably because they didn't think someone would actually take the time and try to translate it and they just needed some text as a Filler?
My character Tsin'xing
Again interesting moral relativism. Tell that to those in jail for manslaughter.
Gladly, since even involuntary manslaughter requires a degree of mens rea.
I doubt very much the Dominion showed up just because Sela asked them nicely and started spreading fears of an Iconian invasion. She must have made some under the table deals with them. So they would be obligated to help her if she was going to make good on what ever concessions she made to get them to show up.
Also Sela herself said she always keeps a back door there's no way she walked into the heart of the federation without an escape plan in place.
It's already stated by Sela that they were not very open to negotiating with her and I quote "I was impressed with the strength and ferocity of their warriors. Now I'm in awe in the labyrinth that keeps you from seeing their leaders."
She must have offered something to get her foot in the door so to speak they clearly were not interested in talking with her.
The Dominion have never been very generous we've seen it countless times before where they offered something with a deceptive smile but intend to take everything in return.
Hard to say what she might offer , maybe her ties with the Romulan star Empire as a foot hold in the quadrant or maybe some borg technology. I can't say for sure given Romulans aren't exactly the most forthcoming of people.:P
Perhaps not but she will have prepared for treachery all the same better to catch her off guard than walk into well prepared plan and look the fool for trying.
If there isn't some kind of "temporal censorship" rule in place preventing you from re-visiting points in time you've already been to then every time you went back to a critical event you'd find fifty copies of yourself trying to fix whatever you got wrong.
No mulligans.
Too far from the wormhole, and probably not that much space to work with. Plus it risks conflict with the Alpha Quadrant powers when they can blockade the wormhole.
Assuming the Dominion is crazy enough to TRIBBLE around with Borg tech.
Because we only went back once.
No, we had not "already" gone back. We went back once. That means there is one instance of Team Hail Mary in the past.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/