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Forums > Home› Star Trek Online General Discussion

Yay, we won! And Sela doesn't get locked up for war crimes! Wait, what?

fulleatherjacketfulleatherjacket Member Posts: 980 Arc User
in Star Trek Online General Discussion
The title says it all. I don't think Sela should be punished for any predestination paradoxes, but who's the bonehead who forgot to put her in irons and sent her to New Romulus for trial for the multitude of crimes that should see her rot in a cell forever? My money is on Kagran.
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Comments

  • mrspidey2mrspidey2 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    One could say that the burden of knowing that she has caused the near extinction of her people is punishment enough. This will weigh heavily on her for the rest of her life.
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  • lighte007lighte007 Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    Sela is probably going to kill herself to get rid of the pain of knowing it was all her FAULT in the first place for Romulus' destruction or she will try to do something sneaky or lose her Empress Position and be an Outcast among Outcasts and join the dominion. lol
    The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
  • lighte007lighte007 Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    And possibly say sorry to Vulcan that she tried to destroy with Thalron Radiation. lol
    The Rising of the Delta is the best expansion ever, and people love it to death because it is a good day to die in the endless struggle for supremacy of your own conviction. (A spin off of the Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and all the players love it.)
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    fulleatherjacket wrote: »
    mrspidey2 wrote: »
    One could say that the burden of knowing that she has caused the near extinction of her people is punishment enough. This will weigh heavily on her for the rest of her life.

    Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.

    Yep, she needs to serve a long term in prison (that may be eased by providing diplomatic assistance to the Republic or otherwise serving the Alliance)

    But just letting her go... nope, I wouldn't believe that.
    ryuga81.png
  • supergirl1611supergirl1611 Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    Thats one of the things that puzzled me at the end of the episode. A intergalactic war criminal standing in the middle of SFA celebrating victory and not a single security officer in sight to lock her away ?.
  • risian4risian4 Member Posts: 3,711 Arc User
    The dialogue option at the end explains it well enough I think. Sela is, like all of us, trapped in some temporal circle. And the problem with circles is, you don't know where they start or end.

    Did the Iconians destroy Romulus, resulting in Sela wanting revenge and killing those Iconians 200.000 years ago? Or did it start with Sela killing those Iconians, resulting in the Iconians wanting revenge and destroying Romulus? Or didn't it start anywhere and does the circle simply exist, including those trapped in it and shouldn't we view any of the persons involved as being responsible for anything because, in the end, they had no choice but to do what the timeline demanded of them?

    I think to answer the question whether Sela should be punished, can only be answered after we've answered the question whether we can influence our own destiny or if it's all determined for us. This episode certainly points to the latter.
  • samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    Let her slowly dissolve in a pool of Sodium Hydroxide over the course of several days. Even that is too nice a punishment.
  • arachnaasarachnaas Member Posts: 118 Arc User
    I still want to hand her to T'Ket. At this point Sela could be brought up on charges against all sentient life in the galaxy.
  • bernatkbernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    Go watch Minority report.
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  • gurluasgurluas Member Posts: 464 Arc User
    Personally I hope she helps unite the Romulan people again, and then spend her life atoning.
    It helps no one if she gets put in a brig.
  • gurluasgurluas Member Posts: 464 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Still, putting her in jail or killing her serves no need. She is still the Empress of the RSE.
    So she is an important piece to completely uniting the Romulan people, and with her seeming realization of what a terrible person she was, I think she'd help.

    There is a difference from justice and vengeance.
  • theraven2378theraven2378 Member Posts: 6,007 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    I'd have Sela arrested and put on trial for her actions myself, give her a Vulcan defence council with a Klingon judge and have members from all the alliance races as jury and possible one of the Iconians on the jury as well.

    I'd rather not have it a Romulan affair to make sure it's a fair trial and it shows the Iconians that we can deal with matters of justice in a fair manner
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    • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
      fulleatherjacket wrote: »
      mrspidey2 wrote: »
      One could say that the burden of knowing that she has caused the near extinction of her people is punishment enough. This will weigh heavily on her for the rest of her life.

      Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.

      Agreed, she needs to be brought to justice. Given how resistant she has proven to incarceration though, I think execution could be justified due to the degree of danger to society she presents if allowed to live, despite the appeal of sentencing her to life to live with the burden of her crimes.

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    • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 283 Arc User
      gurluas wrote: »
      I think to answer the question whether Sela should be punished, can only be answered after we've answered the question whether we can influence our own destiny or if it's all determined for us. This episode certainly points to the latter.

      She made a series of wrong choices that in the end resulted in what happened. Condemning her for what she did in the Midnight mission would be arguable (she was doing what we all were set to do in the beginning. Our orders were to prevent Iconians from escaping, so in some way she was right more than we were in this specific occasion).

      Yet there is a ton of other things she did as Empress that make her a war criminal, she wanted to destroy the whole Vulcan, only because she believed, despite all evidence, that Vulcan should have done more for Romulus (despite RSE being generally hostile to the Federation up to the events of Nemesis)!
      ryuga81.png
    • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
      I have better idea. Why wasn't Sela erased with the temporal weapon after ? Wouldn't that basically nulify everything she caused ?
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    • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
      Yeah, this was the one part of the story that I really didn't get. It doesn't matter if Sela helped in the final war, or if she's going to have to live with guilt, she's still guilty of unforgivable war crimes and should, at the very least, be in prison.

      I would have appreciated an option to pull out my phaser and shut her up once and for all, but locking her up would work too. ;)
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    • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
      Firing squad. No free passes for sentient rights abusers and mass murderers.
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    • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
      Sela's evil made the Iconians evil... she f'ed up big time and got the message hardcore... predestination paradoxal style. The burden one would have to carry is worse than any time served... probably
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    • arachnaasarachnaas Member Posts: 118 Arc User
      edited September 2015
      medalionemissary wrote: »
      Sela's evil made the Iconians evil... she f'ed up big time and got the message hardcore... predestination paradoxal style. The burden one would have to carry is worse than any time served... probably

      Putting her away for life is not so much directly the punishment, as it is to keep her from doing more harm. Some people are too dangerous to have roaming freely.

      Can't remember if romulans have a tradition of falling on their own sword, but this might be a good time for that.

    • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
      Lets see... If we kill Sela then not only is she released from all remorse but we make an enemy of the RSE. We lock her up and the RSE is going to have no reason to help the rest of the quadrant recover. If on the other hand we send her back to the RSE with the backing of the other powers of the quadrant the four of them can help one another to rebuild and most likely begin a new era of peace and prosperity. The Tal Shiar probably have enough ships to prop up the other factions and even the odds should T'Ket regroup and attempt another invasion so getting them on side is kind of important.
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    • highlord83highlord83 Member Posts: 229 Arc User
      ryugasirius wrote: »

      Yep, she needs to serve a long term in prison (that may be eased by providing diplomatic assistance to the Republic or otherwise serving the Alliance)

      But just letting her go... nope, I wouldn't believe that.

      She needs to be tied to a post and shot.

      "So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again."
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    • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
      I would hope that Sela's realization would put her in a Dukat-state of insanity where he curled up into a ball locked inside himself for awhile
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    • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
      medalionemissary wrote: »
      I would hope that Sela's realization would put her in a Dukat-state of insanity where he curled up into a ball locked inside himself for awhile

      Hey, there's an idea: that punishment from the DS9 episode "Hard Time." That could be calibrated to induce insanity in an instant...

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    • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,449 Community Moderator
      Eh... I think she will get something. The fact we didn't see it in the mission means nothing. When we talk to her at SFA its immediately after the war ends. Its not like we'd drop everything to arrest Sela immediately.

      I see... party, then she would probably turn herself in out of guilt for Romulus.
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    • mrspidey2mrspidey2 Member Posts: 959 Arc User
      edited September 2015

      Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.
      How is a lifetime of feeling absolutely miserable not justice? What is justice, even? How would you punish what she did without getting revenge and justice mixed up?
      Lock her up? What for? Again, she's already feeling horrible about it. Rehab? Judging from her last lines she's already coming around. So maybe she can do some good now. Wouldn't that be more preferable, considering the insane amount of rebuilding that's required?
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    • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
      mrspidey2 wrote: »

      Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.
      How is a lifetime of feeling absolutely miserable not justice? What is justice, even? How would you punish what she did without getting revenge and justice mixed up?
      Lock her up? What for? Again, she's already feeling horrible about it. Rehab? Judging from her last lines she's already coming around. So maybe she can do some good now. Wouldn't that be more preferable, considering the insane amount of rebuilding that's required?

      Erm.. she's already a wanted war criminal, and is a fugitive. The idea that she wouldn't be arrested on the spot and have 20 guards on her in the middle of Starfleet Academy is ludicrous.
    • lizweilizwei Member Posts: 936 Arc User
      edited September 2015
      shazia9191 wrote: »
      mrspidey2 wrote: »

      Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.
      How is a lifetime of feeling absolutely miserable not justice? What is justice, even? How would you punish what she did without getting revenge and justice mixed up?
      Lock her up? What for? Again, she's already feeling horrible about it. Rehab? Judging from her last lines she's already coming around. So maybe she can do some good now. Wouldn't that be more preferable, considering the insane amount of rebuilding that's required?

      I completely agree. Seems like several posters in this thread are pushing their own ideas of revenge on us and pretending its "justice." Sela has a lot on her mind, and it's there where the real punishment lies. Lock a criminal up for decades, but if they believe they are innocent, there is little real suffering other than physical discomfort. Not that I think Sela really deserves punishment in the first place -- I just think that we need to specify what, exactly, justice means in this case.

      Personal opinions on Sela and/or sympathy for her own actions leading to this are irrelevant. I personally think D'tan is a scumbag opportunist who sold the birthright of all Romulans to the Federation and KDF to keep his power, and Sela is 500 times the leader he'll ever be.

      But that's besides the point. The facts are Sela is a wanted criminal by the Romulan Republic, and by extension it's Federation masters. She would logically be immediately arrested and imprisoned, end of story.

    • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
      mrspidey2 wrote: »

      Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.
      How is a lifetime of feeling absolutely miserable not justice? What is justice, even? How would you punish what she did without getting revenge and justice mixed up?
      Lock her up? What for? Again, she's already feeling horrible about it. Rehab? Judging from her last lines she's already coming around. So maybe she can do some good now. Wouldn't that be more preferable, considering the insane amount of rebuilding that's required?

      In cases where the risks of recidivism are too high--where the demonstrated capabilities for destruction are too high--I think that it is both a matter of justice and public safety to ensure the chance of reoffending is eliminated. Sela is such an example, as demonstrated by her prior prison breaks and subsequent crimes.

      Plus, one who is truly repentant of crimes of that magnitude will understand and agree with the need for penance. Raskolnikov still had to go to Siberia, after all.

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    • guljarolguljarol Member Posts: 980 Arc User
      adamkafei wrote: »
      Lets see... If we kill Sela then not only is she released from all remorse but we make an enemy of the RSE. We lock her up and the RSE is going to have no reason to help the rest of the quadrant recover. If on the other hand we send her back to the RSE with the backing of the other powers of the quadrant the four of them can help one another to rebuild and most likely begin a new era of peace and prosperity. The Tal Shiar probably have enough ships to prop up the other factions and even the odds should T'Ket regroup and attempt another invasion so getting them on side is kind of important.

      I wouldn't assume that Sela has any RSE support left. Especially, when everybody learns why the Iconians were so set on destroying the Romulans to the last one.​​
    • gulberatgulberat Member Posts: 5,505 Arc User
      guljarol wrote: »
      adamkafei wrote: »
      Lets see... If we kill Sela then not only is she released from all remorse but we make an enemy of the RSE. We lock her up and the RSE is going to have no reason to help the rest of the quadrant recover. If on the other hand we send her back to the RSE with the backing of the other powers of the quadrant the four of them can help one another to rebuild and most likely begin a new era of peace and prosperity. The Tal Shiar probably have enough ships to prop up the other factions and even the odds should T'Ket regroup and attempt another invasion so getting them on side is kind of important.

      I wouldn't assume that Sela has any RSE support left. Especially, when everybody learns why the Iconians were so set on destroying the Romulans to the last one.​​

      Kind of my line of thought.

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