The Feds weren't following them in a thinly veiled burn and pillage campaign after shape shifters that, after the Klingons' stupidity before the Dominion War (remember they attacked Cardassia and the Federation crying "SHAPESHIFTER!" when in fact Cardassia was clean and THEY were infested). The Feds had zero--I repeat, ZERO--reason to believe the Klingons for one second.
You know...you'd think they'd at least trust Worf in the matter but no, they didn't. He worked his behind off for Starfleet and they didn't value his words. Ungrateful jerks...
And lets not forget the fact that the Klingons provided proof when they publically exposed the fake Gorn King for what he truly was.
The Feds failed to trust their closest allies and for that the Accords were revoked.
The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
Had the Klingons engaged in a few targeted black ops without actual conquest, and aired the revelation of the infiltrators across the quadrant with a "DEMAND ACTION FROM YOUR LEADERS NOW!" sort of message (and by this I mean blast the message across all media), and NOT given up the moral high ground by engaging in territorial aggrandizement, their message AND their wise restraint would get the Federation citizenry riled up and protesting to a point where the Feds would either have to clean house or face serious unrest at home. The most they'd be able to get mad at on the Klingon side then would be "propagandizing," or at the very most, being upset over hacking used to make pirate broadcasts to ensure every Fed saw it.
But of course if they tried too hard to suppress the "propaganda," all that would do would be to fan the flames with your average Fed on the street who would see it as evidence supporting the Klingon "conspiracy theory."
It would not result in booty and glory for the Klingons like a conventional war--nor be as fast--but a SMART warrior would know that in this case the Fed "adversary" should have been engaged by unconventional, non-lethal means to get a result that would have been in the interests of the Quadrant as a whole and kept everyone focused on fighting the RIGHT conventional war when the time came for THAT. Doesn't mean the Klingons would have to agree with Fed mores: just know their "adversary" well enough to know what will and won't get the right reaction.
Which again means J'mpok was either a moron or wanted a war regardless of the cost to the Quadrant of of being an Iconian lapdog.
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How is the thread title a spoiler? We won, duh we couldn't predict that with the Season 11 blogs about how we can now once again be explorers? And Sela being a War Criminal? Didn't that happen a lot earlier in the game?
Rage on young Padawan.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Regarding The Iconians however, what are we going to do? Put them on trial? They could STILL beat us, even now.
We have no basis on which to enforce a punishment.
That's the writers' problem. They don't get a pass for creating a situation they couldn't reasonably bring to a satisfactory ending.
@Venture-1. @Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that. Yes, that Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. You'll have to be specific; for me it was Tuesday.
The Feds weren't following them in a thinly veiled burn and pillage campaign after shape shifters that, after the Klingons' stupidity before the Dominion War (remember they attacked Cardassia and the Federation crying "SHAPESHIFTER!" when in fact Cardassia was clean and THEY were infested). The Feds had zero--I repeat, ZERO--reason to believe the Klingons for one second.
You know...you'd think they'd at least trust Worf in the matter but no, they didn't. He worked his behind off for Starfleet and they didn't value his words. Ungrateful jerks...
And lets not forget the fact that the Klingons provided proof when they publically exposed the fake Gorn King for what he truly was.
The Feds failed to trust their closest allies and for that the Accords were revoked.
The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
Had the Klingons engaged in a few targeted black ops without actual conquest, and aired the revelation of the infiltrators across the quadrant with a "DEMAND ACTION FROM YOUR LEADERS NOW!" sort of message (and by this I mean blast the message across all media), and NOT given up the moral high ground by engaging in territorial aggrandizement, their message AND their wise restraint would get the Federation citizenry riled up and protesting to a point where the Feds would either have to clean house or face serious unrest at home. The most they'd be able to get mad at on the Klingon side then would be "propagandizing," or at the very most, being upset over hacking used to make pirate broadcasts to ensure every Fed saw it.
But of course if they tried too hard to suppress the "propaganda," all that would do would be to fan the flames with your average Fed on the street who would see it as evidence supporting the Klingon "conspiracy theory."
It would not result in booty and glory for the Klingons like a conventional war--nor be as fast--but a SMART warrior would know that in this case the Fed "adversary" should have been engaged by unconventional, non-lethal means to get a result that would have been in the interests of the Quadrant as a whole and kept everyone focused on fighting the RIGHT conventional war when the time came for THAT. Doesn't mean the Klingons would have to agree with Fed mores: just know their "adversary" well enough to know what will and won't get the right reaction.
Which again means J'mpok was either a moron or wanted a war regardless of the cost to the Quadrant of of being an Iconian lapdog.
So you want the Klingons to do a little song and dance to get the Federation on board? Ima primary Fed player and I have to agree at the end of the day the Klingons were right, the Feds werent and no amount of trying to paint it as if the Klingons went about it 'the wrong way' which is really just the 'Klingon way' will change that truth. Had the Feds taken their allies concerns seriously and launched an investigation themselves. Theyd have come to realize the Klingons were right. Instead the Feds arrogantly dismissed their allies concerns and set the two powers down this path.
Can't we just all agree to have J'mpok pay for what he did to Martok and the Kithomer Accords?
Why? He did nothing wrong. He slew Martok in honorable combat. Just like Worf slew Gowron. It's the Klingon Way.
And he nullified the Khitomer Accords because the Feds weren't following them anyway what with them not supporting the Klingons in their attempt to oust Undine imposters.
The Feds weren't following them in a thinly veiled burn and pillage campaign after shape shifters that, after the Klingons' stupidity before the Dominion War (remember they attacked Cardassia and the Federation crying "SHAPESHIFTER!" when in fact Cardassia was clean and THEY were infested). The Feds had zero--I repeat, ZERO--reason to believe the Klingons for one second.
You know...you'd think they'd at least trust Worf in the matter but no, they didn't. He worked his behind off for Starfleet and they didn't value his words. Ungrateful jerks...
And lets not forget the fact that the Klingons provided proof when they publically exposed the fake Gorn King for what he truly was.
The Feds failed to trust their closest allies and for that the Accords were revoked.
The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
Had the Klingons engaged in a few targeted black ops without actual conquest, and aired the revelation of the infiltrators across the quadrant with a "DEMAND ACTION FROM YOUR LEADERS NOW!" sort of message (and by this I mean blast the message across all media), and NOT given up the moral high ground by engaging in territorial aggrandizement, their message AND their wise restraint would get the Federation citizenry riled up and protesting to a point where the Feds would either have to clean house or face serious unrest at home. The most they'd be able to get mad at on the Klingon side then would be "propagandizing," or at the very most, being upset over hacking used to make pirate broadcasts to ensure every Fed saw it.
But of course if they tried too hard to suppress the "propaganda," all that would do would be to fan the flames with your average Fed on the street who would see it as evidence supporting the Klingon "conspiracy theory."
It would not result in booty and glory for the Klingons like a conventional war--nor be as fast--but a SMART warrior would know that in this case the Fed "adversary" should have been engaged by unconventional, non-lethal means to get a result that would have been in the interests of the Quadrant as a whole and kept everyone focused on fighting the RIGHT conventional war when the time came for THAT. Doesn't mean the Klingons would have to agree with Fed mores: just know their "adversary" well enough to know what will and won't get the right reaction.
Which again means J'mpok was either a moron or wanted a war regardless of the cost to the Quadrant of of being an Iconian lapdog.
So you want the Klingons to do a little song and dance to get the Federation on board? Ima primary Fed player and I have to agree at the end of the day the Klingons were right, the Feds werent and no amount of trying to paint it as if the Klingons went about it 'the wrong way' which is really just the 'Klingon way' will change that truth. Had the Feds taken their allies concerns seriously and launched an investigation themselves. Theyd have come to realize the Klingons were right. Instead the Feds arrogantly dismissed their allies concerns and set the two powers down this path.
Might as well not even bother. An argument with either of those two Feds is futile. They don't want to talk about the more honorable, more decent, more intelligent Klingons. They point at a specific few and hold them as the prime example as to who and what Klingons are and why they are disgusting and stupid. They want to focus on their intellectual and moral superiority over Klingons and by extension, us.
The Feds weren't following them in a thinly veiled burn and pillage campaign after shape shifters that, after the Klingons' stupidity before the Dominion War (remember they attacked Cardassia and the Federation crying "SHAPESHIFTER!" when in fact Cardassia was clean and THEY were infested). The Feds had zero--I repeat, ZERO--reason to believe the Klingons for one second.
You know...you'd think they'd at least trust Worf in the matter but no, they didn't. He worked his behind off for Starfleet and they didn't value his words. Ungrateful jerks...
And lets not forget the fact that the Klingons provided proof when they publically exposed the fake Gorn King for what he truly was.
The Feds failed to trust their closest allies and for that the Accords were revoked.
The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
Had the Klingons engaged in a few targeted black ops without actual conquest, and aired the revelation of the infiltrators across the quadrant with a "DEMAND ACTION FROM YOUR LEADERS NOW!" sort of message (and by this I mean blast the message across all media), and NOT given up the moral high ground by engaging in territorial aggrandizement, their message AND their wise restraint would get the Federation citizenry riled up and protesting to a point where the Feds would either have to clean house or face serious unrest at home. The most they'd be able to get mad at on the Klingon side then would be "propagandizing," or at the very most, being upset over hacking used to make pirate broadcasts to ensure every Fed saw it.
But of course if they tried too hard to suppress the "propaganda," all that would do would be to fan the flames with your average Fed on the street who would see it as evidence supporting the Klingon "conspiracy theory."
It would not result in booty and glory for the Klingons like a conventional war--nor be as fast--but a SMART warrior would know that in this case the Fed "adversary" should have been engaged by unconventional, non-lethal means to get a result that would have been in the interests of the Quadrant as a whole and kept everyone focused on fighting the RIGHT conventional war when the time came for THAT. Doesn't mean the Klingons would have to agree with Fed mores: just know their "adversary" well enough to know what will and won't get the right reaction.
Which again means J'mpok was either a moron or wanted a war regardless of the cost to the Quadrant of of being an Iconian lapdog.
So you want the Klingons to do a little song and dance to get the Federation on board? Ima primary Fed player and I have to agree at the end of the day the Klingons were right, the Feds werent and no amount of trying to paint it as if the Klingons went about it 'the wrong way' which is really just the 'Klingon way' will change that truth. Had the Feds taken their allies concerns seriously and launched an investigation themselves. Theyd have come to realize the Klingons were right. Instead the Feds arrogantly dismissed their allies concerns and set the two powers down this path.
if it makes anyone feel better it was probably mostly the undines in starfleet admiral uniforms who dismissed the klingons.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
The outcome concerning Sela in the finale was so predictable, it makes her seem grossly incompetent for not seeing it coming from a mile away. I legitimately knew exactly how things were going to unfold at least by the time I went back in time. That such a flagrantly thoughtless and blind character is in charge of anything, and has any position of authority is quite alarming, but somehow sadly unsurprising. I'd like to think Cryptic was making some kind of profound commentary on the intellectual capacity of high ranking political figures in general, but somehow I doubt it.
More to the topic, yes, she should have at least been tried for war crimes, without question. Not only did she gun down innocents that were fleeing for their lives, she's directly responsible (at least in large part) for the resulting fallout of the Iconian war, and all of the lives (and worlds) that have been lost as a consequence of it.
But honestly, if Sela is among the best that the Romulans have to offer, that's a sad commentary on the Romulans general. What an absolute dolt of monumental proportions. Anyone who was even paying a cursory amount of attention to the events unfolding before them would have easily realized how this all began, and how it probably could have all been avoided (assuming the time continuum can be altered, but that's a whole other topic).
Actually... did we actually win the war??? Did we destroy our common foe? The Iconians??? No, no, no. All we did was a cease fire and an agreement to never bother the Iconians and their home world again... But here is the catch... L'miren sais: "Be wary of T'ket, she is a worthy adversary and I wouldn't raise my hands against her, even in help of the "Other""
Remember T'ket still wants revenge, and not even 1 million planets could quench her thirst for vengeance...
That being said, rather than calling it "Winning the war" maybe? Cease fire? peace treaty?
Actually... did we actually win the war??? Did we destroy our common foe? The Iconians??? No, no, no. All we did was a cease fire and an agreement to never bother the Iconians and their home world again... But here is the catch... L'miren sais: "Be wary of T'ket, she is a worthy adversary and I wouldn't raise my hands against her, even in help of the "Other""
Remember T'ket still wants revenge, and not even 1 million planets could quench her thirst for vengeance...
That being said, rather than calling it "Winning the war" maybe? Cease fire? peace treaty?
Bet you guys didn't think of that? did you? XD
It's just supposition, but I suspect Iconians (sane ones) have strong prohibitions against harming one of the Whole. The "Other" is considered part of the whole, as is T'Ket. Therefor L'Miren can't help either in this. T'Ket of course is utterly insane, and cares not. Also, considering T'Ket's comments about her own people, it would not surprise me if T'Ket decided to plot against Iconia at some point. If she did, I would expect L'Miren to be free to act.
I like L'Miren, and M'Tara as well. Any even respect I had for T'Ket ended with that "Million worlds" line. She got her revenge. She just lives for blood now.
Actually... did we actually win the war??? Did we destroy our common foe? The Iconians??? No, no, no. All we did was a cease fire and an agreement to never bother the Iconians and their home world again... But here is the catch... L'miren sais: "Be wary of T'ket, she is a worthy adversary and I wouldn't raise my hands against her, even in help of the "Other""
Remember T'ket still wants revenge, and not even 1 million planets could quench her thirst for vengeance...
That being said, rather than calling it "Winning the war" maybe? Cease fire? peace treaty?
Bet you guys didn't think of that? did you? XD
well it was pretty well spelled out to us in midnight its more of a cease of hostilities aka ceasefire and the terms are simple leave iconia and the iconians alone period not negotiable.
I would like to see though something like T'Ket destroys memory alpha aka the federations version of a world heart and the iconians who have reverted back to their ancient form volunteer to be the keepers and protectors of our knowledge since we saved the thing that housed thier culture and knowledge.
and have iconia as a place we can visit like memory alpha used to be even so far as have the iconians deciding it was wrong to have killed the preservers and wish to take thier place as the ancient wise people who we can come to for advice.
By the way, those saying "we lost"... No, we won. Because living and getting the Iconians to basically go "yeah, our bad" is winning.
A terrible and horrible win, but a win nevertheless.
We won in the sense that the stated fundamental objective of the Alliance in the war-effort was achieved, while the Iconians' stated goal prior to the events of Midnight were not. Of course, when your goal is 'survival', a cease fire is a victory.
By the way, those saying "we lost"... No, we won. Because living and getting the Iconians to basically go "yeah, our bad" is winning.
A terrible and horrible win, but a win nevertheless.
It's still a loss, due to failure to leverage our assets.
We possessed the one item every Iconian left absolutely needs, and we just hand it over and let L'Miren be an arrogant twit.
Despite what some claim, the war was by no means lost at that point. We should've threatened to dump the World Heart into the nearest black hole unless the Iconians submit and atone right the hell now.
You are absolutely responsible for your actions in a crime of passion. The punishment is less severe than for one committed in cold blood but you do not get a free pass.
Sela's actions were not a crime of passion. They were emblematic of a pattern and practice of past behavior. Any just court would hang her. Likewise, the Iconians had a 200,000 year cooling off period which establishes premeditation beyond any possible doubt.
To be legally found not responsible for one's actions means meeting the legal definition of insanity. This happens less than 1% of the time, regardless of what you may have seen on Law and Order
I never said anything about Sela or the Iconians m8.
Regarding The Iconians however, what are we going to do? Put them on trial? They could STILL beat us, even now.
We have no basis on which to enforce a punishment.
Sure we do, but you have to think outside the box. Just take some of the Iconians' other leftover tech and threaten to use it on them unless they capitulate. I don't think an Omega particle detonation would do anything healthy to their subspace magic. They don't surrender, they're imprisoned in the Iconia system for a few centuries.
Stick's covered, so here's the carrot: they surrender and start fixing everything they broke, they get Empress Psychopath as a chew toy for as long as they want.
By the way, those saying "we lost"... No, we won. Because living and getting the Iconians to basically go "yeah, our bad" is winning.
A terrible and horrible win, but a win nevertheless.
It's still a loss, due to failure to leverage our assets.
We possessed the one item every Iconian left absolutely needs, and we just hand it over and let L'Miren be an arrogant twit.
Despite what some claim, the war was by no means lost at that point. We should've threatened to dump the World Heart into the nearest black hole unless the Iconians submit and atone right the hell now.
see what one of the nicer iconians did to the high council for a minor bit of defiance and to make a point, what do you think T'ket would do to the fool threaterning said one item.
they teleported us against will, our plot armor ran out right then. I don't want T'ket bathing in my ashes. and she seems the type.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
That is just plain wrong. Worf was Federation Ambassador to Qo'noS. And he was acompanied by Dr. Crusher, Tuvok, Janeway, Chakotay and Dax. And there was already proof. The Undine that had attacked Ja'rod was in custody. Councillor Konjah had already been exposed to be fake. Fake captain T'Vix was in Federation custody. There was all this proof and the people apealing to the Federation Council were one of the most seasoned and reliable Starfleet officers out there and the Council still didn't listen to them.
You can try and spin this into "not the Fed's fault" all you want, but that is just inexcusable.
Sela is nuts and she belongs in an asylum. It is why I like the Republic Romulans. I could never play a Star Empire Romulan, being part of the Sela/Hakeev nuts show. It is also why I think the Iconian arc rambles. Anything that has some intellect stays far away from types like Sela. But it was part of the revenge plan, you may say. OK, but wasn't it easier to blow the whole Romulan world out of existence? They have world killing capability.
[SNIP]
But honestly, if Sela is among the best that the Romulans have to offer,
That's like saying, "if Edsel is the best that Ford has to offer,". It's not, and she's not.
In fact, she's not even really up to Edsel standards, because at least an Edsel really IS a Ford. Sela was never really a Romulan. She's a half-human. And as any dog-breeder will tell you, mutts don't get pedigree papers.
Not among the best. Not a Romulan. Just a psychotic, self-aggrandizing half-human who NEVER SHUTS UP.
I sincerely hope we only see her once more, and that's when we personally give her to T'Ket. And get to watch her die. THEN Romulus would truly be avenged.
You are absolutely responsible for your actions in a crime of passion. The punishment is less severe than for one committed in cold blood but you do not get a free pass.
Sela's actions were not a crime of passion. They were emblematic of a pattern and practice of past behavior. Any just court would hang her. Likewise, the Iconians had a 200,000 year cooling off period which establishes premeditation beyond any possible doubt.
To be legally found not responsible for one's actions means meeting the legal definition of insanity. This happens less than 1% of the time, regardless of what you may have seen on Law and Order
I never said anything about Sela or the Iconians m8.
Regarding The Iconians however, what are we going to do? Put them on trial? They could STILL beat us, even now.
We have no basis on which to enforce a punishment.
Sure we do, but you have to think outside the box. Just take some of the Iconians' other leftover tech and threaten to use it on them unless they capitulate. I don't think an Omega particle detonation would do anything healthy to their subspace magic. They don't surrender, they're imprisoned in the Iconia system for a few centuries.
Stick's covered, so here's the carrot: they surrender and start fixing everything they broke, they get Empress Psychopath as a chew toy for as long as they want.
Did you forget the fact that they have gateways?
... which rely on subspace.
This is what happens when you actually consider the full implications of your supertech: you come up with solutions (and problems) you wouldn't have otherwise. And it's something Star Trek writers are invariably horrible at doing, unfortunately.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@mrspidey2 : And again you misrepresent events. The Federation Council explicitly DID believe Starfleet's evidence. They just believed the problem could be solved with diplomacy instead of by invading a sovereign state. That's Councilor Sokketh's words, paraphrased, and no, he had not been replaced yet.
Guess what happens in "Mindscape"? We go in and kill all the—oh, no, wait, WE SOLVE THE UNDINE PROBLEM WITH DIPLOMACY!
All the Klingons' warmongering did was drag things out and weaken the quadrant for when the other shoe dropped. The Iconians played them like a harp, just like the Founders.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@mrspidey2 : And again you misrepresent events. The Federation Council explicitly DID believe Starfleet's evidence. They just believed the problem could be solved with diplomacy instead of by invading a sovereign state. That's Councilor Sokketh's words, paraphrased, and no, he had not been replaced yet.
Guess what happens in "Mindscape"? We go in and kill all the—oh, no, wait, WE SOLVE THE UNDINE PROBLEM WITH DIPLOMACY!
All the Klingons' warmongering did was drag things out and weaken the quadrant for when the other shoe dropped. The Iconians played them like a harp, just like the Founders.
I don't think shooting your way into a base then mindraping said base counts as dipomacy.
and that a sentence, I did not think I would ever type.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
@mrspidey2 : And again you misrepresent events. The Federation Council explicitly DID believe Starfleet's evidence. They just believed the problem could be solved with diplomacy instead of by invading a sovereign state. That's Councilor Sokketh's words, paraphrased, and no, he had not been replaced yet.
So - when we do try and utilize diplomacy to end an active war, it's a bad idea and it should have been a war to the knife, but when the Klingons launch an attack while Starfleet relies on diplomat rather than working to expose infiltrators, it's a good thing?
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Oh, but to have just used the Weapon Ship against the Iconians, obliterated them entirely and made the Krenim Imperium super strong and our new bad guy...
Many posters are treating acts of war as if they were crimes. An act of war is not subject to criminal justice, and the Nuremburg Trials so often quoted had nothing to do with punishing people for acts of war, (of which the victors were as guilty as the vanquished.)
What is subject to criminal justice is War Crimes, which are criminal acts which use the opportunity provided by war to carry them out.
So, if Sela as head of the Romulan Star Empire, attacked and destroyed Vulcan, it is certain that non-military persons were killed, but ordering her military to eliminate a strategic target is not a crime. If, on the other hand, Sela then rounded up Vulcan refugees and stole the change in their pockets, that is a crime, and that is punishable, both for her giving the orders and for those who carried out those orders.
So far, I have not seen a single example of Sela committing any war crimes in any jurisdiction of the Federation. She committed acts of war, which are not punishable by the criminal justice system. The same applies to the Iconians. While responsible for the deaths of billions and the destruction of many worlds, their acts were acts of war, and not war crimes.
While I won't get into modern examples, it seems this distinction is lost on the current generation, which has been taught to view all war as crime. Our laws, handed down to us from ancient time, make it clear that a person cannot be held responsible individually for acts of war, no matter if he is a foot soldier or a chancellor.
Dukat, on the other hand, did commit war crimes. He killed innocent people as an example to others. He seized personal property for his own enrichment. He enslaved civilians for the entertainment value they provided to himself and his troops. These are not acts of war, but crimes against people who happened to be in a belligerent position with his government.
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians. Then we can have a trial. Perhaps the Iconians have a case against Sela for her actions in the past, but that is a matter for the Iconians, not the Federation, to judge.
One could say that the burden of knowing that she has caused the near extinction of her people is punishment enough. This will weigh heavily on her for the rest of her life.
Can I go on a killing spree and use that for the jury?
She is not the Douwd. Which is still a better .... lifeform than sela, even though his headcount is way, way above hers.
Her personal remorse has nothing to do with justice being served.
Oh please, its Sela, she will get better. Give her a week or so and she will be back to being the ironclad empress who stomps everyone opposing her. She will come up with some delusion why she was right and you were wrong. I mean, YOU didnt fire on the iconians when they were vulnerable, YOU let them escape. Wait for the next or next-next appearence, she will tell you how you wronged everyone and stood in her path.
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians. Then we can have a trial. Perhaps the Iconians have a case against Sela for her actions in the past, but that is a matter for the Iconians, not the Federation, to judge.
Iconians got from the top of my head: Genocide of the Preservers, Specifically taking Non-Combatant deaths as granted in their "ravaging of thousands of worlds", they certainly did not stop after military bases, I mean New Romulus as a whole was burning.
Sela, well surprisingly I have to think a bit harder... maybe being an accomplice to Tal Shiar? Don't get me wrong, she's a warmongering b***h no matter how you twist it but to be blunt I'd have to play the Stories again as there's nothing much that stuck.
@antonine3258 : Again, no. Getting a negotiated peace is preferable IF there's some guarantee the war won't just start up again later. My problem is with failure to properly use leverage. Yes, we made peace with the Undine by convincing them they were wrong to attack us. You know what we didn't do? We didn't point out to them who they could go hog-wild on, like the Borg. And you know what we could've done with the Iconians? They stop T'Ket for us, and we don't let go of the dead-man switch on the antimatter charge we hooked up to their MacGuffin.
I'm just more inclined to hold the Iconians accountable as the actual ringleaders, because they did a hell of a lot more damage. All the Undine did was kill a few politicians and blow up some space stations. The Iconians committed genocide, killing billions of innocent people who never raised a hand in anger to them in their lives.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
@antonine3258 : Again, no. Getting a negotiated peace is preferable IF there's some guarantee the war won't just start up again later. My problem is with failure to properly use leverage.
What leverage or negotiated peace? The Gorn had launched a buildup on the Klingon borders, and were not interested in negotiating. Their society was run, it became apparent, by infiltrators who were also trying to do the same thing to the Klingons. There was no declaration of intention or battle on the part of the Undine. It was only much later that there was any ability to negotiate with the Undine, and previous good-faith agreements had been violated.
But that deserves negotiation, but the Iconian situation does not, and in fact, they should be all bombed to oblivion or shot by firing squads.
There is a peace that isn't a peace of the grave.
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The way you handle the Federation--especially given that the Klingons did NOT have reason to be trusted (including Worf who had been an expat long enough to no longer be a known commodity) if they were to repeat the same behavior before--is actually to create a public outcry among the Federation peoples. Get the citizenry so riled at their government that the Feds have to hunt infiltrators or risk turmoil at home.
Had the Klingons engaged in a few targeted black ops without actual conquest, and aired the revelation of the infiltrators across the quadrant with a "DEMAND ACTION FROM YOUR LEADERS NOW!" sort of message (and by this I mean blast the message across all media), and NOT given up the moral high ground by engaging in territorial aggrandizement, their message AND their wise restraint would get the Federation citizenry riled up and protesting to a point where the Feds would either have to clean house or face serious unrest at home. The most they'd be able to get mad at on the Klingon side then would be "propagandizing," or at the very most, being upset over hacking used to make pirate broadcasts to ensure every Fed saw it.
But of course if they tried too hard to suppress the "propaganda," all that would do would be to fan the flames with your average Fed on the street who would see it as evidence supporting the Klingon "conspiracy theory."
It would not result in booty and glory for the Klingons like a conventional war--nor be as fast--but a SMART warrior would know that in this case the Fed "adversary" should have been engaged by unconventional, non-lethal means to get a result that would have been in the interests of the Quadrant as a whole and kept everyone focused on fighting the RIGHT conventional war when the time came for THAT. Doesn't mean the Klingons would have to agree with Fed mores: just know their "adversary" well enough to know what will and won't get the right reaction.
Which again means J'mpok was either a moron or wanted a war regardless of the cost to the Quadrant of of being an Iconian lapdog.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That's the writers' problem. They don't get a pass for creating a situation they couldn't reasonably bring to a satisfactory ending.
So you want the Klingons to do a little song and dance to get the Federation on board? Ima primary Fed player and I have to agree at the end of the day the Klingons were right, the Feds werent and no amount of trying to paint it as if the Klingons went about it 'the wrong way' which is really just the 'Klingon way' will change that truth. Had the Feds taken their allies concerns seriously and launched an investigation themselves. Theyd have come to realize the Klingons were right. Instead the Feds arrogantly dismissed their allies concerns and set the two powers down this path.
Might as well not even bother. An argument with either of those two Feds is futile. They don't want to talk about the more honorable, more decent, more intelligent Klingons. They point at a specific few and hold them as the prime example as to who and what Klingons are and why they are disgusting and stupid. They want to focus on their intellectual and moral superiority over Klingons and by extension, us.
if it makes anyone feel better it was probably mostly the undines in starfleet admiral uniforms who dismissed the klingons.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
More to the topic, yes, she should have at least been tried for war crimes, without question. Not only did she gun down innocents that were fleeing for their lives, she's directly responsible (at least in large part) for the resulting fallout of the Iconian war, and all of the lives (and worlds) that have been lost as a consequence of it.
But honestly, if Sela is among the best that the Romulans have to offer, that's a sad commentary on the Romulans general. What an absolute dolt of monumental proportions. Anyone who was even paying a cursory amount of attention to the events unfolding before them would have easily realized how this all began, and how it probably could have all been avoided (assuming the time continuum can be altered, but that's a whole other topic).
Remember T'ket still wants revenge, and not even 1 million planets could quench her thirst for vengeance...
That being said, rather than calling it "Winning the war" maybe? Cease fire? peace treaty?
Bet you guys didn't think of that? did you? XD
It's just supposition, but I suspect Iconians (sane ones) have strong prohibitions against harming one of the Whole. The "Other" is considered part of the whole, as is T'Ket. Therefor L'Miren can't help either in this. T'Ket of course is utterly insane, and cares not. Also, considering T'Ket's comments about her own people, it would not surprise me if T'Ket decided to plot against Iconia at some point. If she did, I would expect L'Miren to be free to act.
I like L'Miren, and M'Tara as well. Any even respect I had for T'Ket ended with that "Million worlds" line. She got her revenge. She just lives for blood now.
well it was pretty well spelled out to us in midnight its more of a cease of hostilities aka ceasefire and the terms are simple leave iconia and the iconians alone period not negotiable.
I would like to see though something like T'Ket destroys memory alpha aka the federations version of a world heart and the iconians who have reverted back to their ancient form volunteer to be the keepers and protectors of our knowledge since we saved the thing that housed thier culture and knowledge.
and have iconia as a place we can visit like memory alpha used to be even so far as have the iconians deciding it was wrong to have killed the preservers and wish to take thier place as the ancient wise people who we can come to for advice.
A terrible and horrible win, but a win nevertheless.
It's still a loss, due to failure to leverage our assets.
We possessed the one item every Iconian left absolutely needs, and we just hand it over and let L'Miren be an arrogant twit.
Despite what some claim, the war was by no means lost at that point. We should've threatened to dump the World Heart into the nearest black hole unless the Iconians submit and atone right the hell now.
Did you forget the fact that they have gateways?
see what one of the nicer iconians did to the high council for a minor bit of defiance and to make a point, what do you think T'ket would do to the fool threaterning said one item.
they teleported us against will, our plot armor ran out right then. I don't want T'ket bathing in my ashes. and she seems the type.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
You can try and spin this into "not the Fed's fault" all you want, but that is just inexcusable.
That's like saying, "if Edsel is the best that Ford has to offer,". It's not, and she's not.
In fact, she's not even really up to Edsel standards, because at least an Edsel really IS a Ford. Sela was never really a Romulan. She's a half-human. And as any dog-breeder will tell you, mutts don't get pedigree papers.
Not among the best. Not a Romulan. Just a psychotic, self-aggrandizing half-human who NEVER SHUTS UP.
I sincerely hope we only see her once more, and that's when we personally give her to T'Ket. And get to watch her die. THEN Romulus would truly be avenged.
... which rely on subspace.
This is what happens when you actually consider the full implications of your supertech: you come up with solutions (and problems) you wouldn't have otherwise. And it's something Star Trek writers are invariably horrible at doing, unfortunately.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Guess what happens in "Mindscape"? We go in and kill all the—oh, no, wait, WE SOLVE THE UNDINE PROBLEM WITH DIPLOMACY!
All the Klingons' warmongering did was drag things out and weaken the quadrant for when the other shoe dropped. The Iconians played them like a harp, just like the Founders.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I don't think shooting your way into a base then mindraping said base counts as dipomacy.
and that a sentence, I did not think I would ever type.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
So - when we do try and utilize diplomacy to end an active war, it's a bad idea and it should have been a war to the knife, but when the Klingons launch an attack while Starfleet relies on diplomat rather than working to expose infiltrators, it's a good thing?
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What is subject to criminal justice is War Crimes, which are criminal acts which use the opportunity provided by war to carry them out.
So, if Sela as head of the Romulan Star Empire, attacked and destroyed Vulcan, it is certain that non-military persons were killed, but ordering her military to eliminate a strategic target is not a crime. If, on the other hand, Sela then rounded up Vulcan refugees and stole the change in their pockets, that is a crime, and that is punishable, both for her giving the orders and for those who carried out those orders.
So far, I have not seen a single example of Sela committing any war crimes in any jurisdiction of the Federation. She committed acts of war, which are not punishable by the criminal justice system. The same applies to the Iconians. While responsible for the deaths of billions and the destruction of many worlds, their acts were acts of war, and not war crimes.
While I won't get into modern examples, it seems this distinction is lost on the current generation, which has been taught to view all war as crime. Our laws, handed down to us from ancient time, make it clear that a person cannot be held responsible individually for acts of war, no matter if he is a foot soldier or a chancellor.
Dukat, on the other hand, did commit war crimes. He killed innocent people as an example to others. He seized personal property for his own enrichment. He enslaved civilians for the entertainment value they provided to himself and his troops. These are not acts of war, but crimes against people who happened to be in a belligerent position with his government.
Show me a single example of a War Crime committed by Sela or the Iconians. Then we can have a trial. Perhaps the Iconians have a case against Sela for her actions in the past, but that is a matter for the Iconians, not the Federation, to judge.
Can I go on a killing spree and use that for the jury?
She is not the Douwd. Which is still a better .... lifeform than sela, even though his headcount is way, way above hers.
Oh please, its Sela, she will get better. Give her a week or so and she will be back to being the ironclad empress who stomps everyone opposing her. She will come up with some delusion why she was right and you were wrong. I mean, YOU didnt fire on the iconians when they were vulnerable, YOU let them escape. Wait for the next or next-next appearence, she will tell you how you wronged everyone and stood in her path.
Iconians got from the top of my head: Genocide of the Preservers, Specifically taking Non-Combatant deaths as granted in their "ravaging of thousands of worlds", they certainly did not stop after military bases, I mean New Romulus as a whole was burning.
Sela, well surprisingly I have to think a bit harder... maybe being an accomplice to Tal Shiar? Don't get me wrong, she's a warmongering b***h no matter how you twist it but to be blunt I'd have to play the Stories again as there's nothing much that stuck.
I'm just more inclined to hold the Iconians accountable as the actual ringleaders, because they did a hell of a lot more damage. All the Undine did was kill a few politicians and blow up some space stations. The Iconians committed genocide, killing billions of innocent people who never raised a hand in anger to them in their lives.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
What leverage or negotiated peace? The Gorn had launched a buildup on the Klingon borders, and were not interested in negotiating. Their society was run, it became apparent, by infiltrators who were also trying to do the same thing to the Klingons. There was no declaration of intention or battle on the part of the Undine. It was only much later that there was any ability to negotiate with the Undine, and previous good-faith agreements had been violated.
But that deserves negotiation, but the Iconian situation does not, and in fact, they should be all bombed to oblivion or shot by firing squads.
There is a peace that isn't a peace of the grave.
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