The Iconians were intended to not have genders at all. When making modern, ethereal Iconians, we tried really hard to balance male and female features, to keep it androgynous, but obviously things ended up on the feminine side.
The Past Iconians were made afterward, and thus, got some extra refinement to their look.
The Iconians were intended to not have genders at all. When making modern, ethereal Iconians, we tried really hard to balance male and female features, to keep it androgynous, but obviously things ended up on the feminine side.
The Past Iconians were made afterward, and thus, got some extra refinement to their look.
In-story, couldn't they have merely adopted a new aesthetic? Or wanted additional functionality?
The Iconians were intended to not have genders at all. When making modern, ethereal Iconians, we tried really hard to balance male and female features, to keep it androgynous, but obviously things ended up on the feminine side.
The Past Iconians were made afterward, and thus, got some extra refinement to their look.
In-story, couldn't they have merely adopted a new aesthetic? Or wanted additional functionality?
"On even-centuries we wear pink."
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
The Iconians were intended to not have genders at all. When making modern, ethereal Iconians, we tried really hard to balance male and female features, to keep it androgynous, but obviously things ended up on the feminine side.
The Past Iconians were made afterward, and thus, got some extra refinement to their look.
For a number of biological reasons I won't go into depth with here (other than citing the existence of certain reptiles capable of parthenogenesis), it's actually not unreasonable that a single-gender species would tend towards a "feminine" phenotype. It makes sense to me that way, rather than being some sort of error.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I think the differences are perhaps not a striking as you're inferring. Bear in mind that the ancient Iconians encountered are wearing the Iconian equivalent of a massively oversized hoody. So consider it something like the difference between seeing an athletically built woman in a bikini and the same woman in that huge sweatshirt. The body shape may be at least mostly the same, but in one case is obscured.
.In-story, couldn't they have merely adopted a new aesthetic? Or wanted additional functionality?
The functionality being preventing anyone from acting against them when they appear. I mean, when M'Tara appears in the High Council Chamber, everyone is greeted by that:
And when in the Preserver archive, the player is greeted by the other side:
Why do you think no-one tried to stop her these two times?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Well, we know that the pre-ascended Iconians could and did reproduce, because one of them told us so. But remember, she then told us that because Iconians live for thousands of years, they simply do not reproduce very often, hence their small numbers.
As we have seen no male Iconians, it seems to me that they are a mono-gendered species, sort of like the asari from Mass Effect.
EDIT: Whoops, missed tacofangs' post there.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
The asari are a good comparison--and again lean closer to the feminine phenotype, which to me makes biological sense based on what we've observed on Earth on asexual (parthenogenic) reproduction in mammals. Childbearing abilities, which in humans require a wider-built pelvic region, are a necessity for that. Now, I don't know that the Iconians bear live young, but would consider it a strong possibility based on that build.
(In contrast when I did some background work for the Devidians, I had them as a two-gendered species but had the males and females both seem "male" to our eyes because I wrote them as oviparous and therefore the females have no need to be set up to carry the young to term. Without further detail I stated in my stories that you need a tricorder or telepathic abilities in universe to know if you are dealing with a male or female Devidian. I've seen the Gorn treated similarly in some fanfic as oviparous and therefore mammalian/therapsid species assuming incorrectly that every Gorn they meet is male.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The asari are a good comparison--and again lean closer to the feminine phenotype, which to me makes biological sense based on what we've observed on Earth on asexual (parthenogenic) reproduction in mammals. Childbearing abilities, which in humans require a wider-built pelvic region, are a necessity for that. Now, I don't know that the Iconians bear live young, but would consider it a strong possibility based on that build.
(In contrast when I did some background work for the Devidians, I had them as a two-gendered species but had the males and females both seem "male" to our eyes because I wrote them as oviparous and therefore the females have no need to be set up to carry the young to term. Without further detail I stated in my stories that you need a tricorder or telepathic abilities in universe to know if you are dealing with a male or female Devidian. I've seen the Gorn treated similarly in some fanfic as oviparous and therefore mammalian/therapsid species assuming incorrectly that every Gorn they meet is male.)
With the Gorn I would assume a more reptilian setup (as they are a reptilian species), where although males and females look alike, females are actually bigger than the males. I don't remember how much detail was put into the Gorn Confederation in the Starfleet Command games, but I remember reading somewhere that they were supposed to consist of three species from three different worlds, and that they actually discovered they were the same with a genetic ancestor or something.
They also liked to build their ships to match their outlook on things. Big, slow, hard to kill.
Except for L'Mirens voice, they don't seem that female to me. For one, I don't see any TRIBBLE. Two, their hips aren't that big. Are you sure you're seeing what you think you're seeing?
The energy versions don't really seem to have TRIBBLE, they just have armour that looks like it would cover where TRIBBLE would be, that makes them look as if they have. The top half of their torsos projects out more then the lower half but it's flattened all across with no cleavage. Something that can realistically be disguised under their larger jumpers. That can be seen on a female player with a small chest wearing the outfit.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I wonder if they didn't have armor in all the strategic places and you couldn't see anything, if we would still be having this discussion? They probably couldn't get away with naked Iconians in a MMO.
The energy versions don't really seem to have TRIBBLE, they just have armour that looks like it would cover where TRIBBLE would be, that makes them look as if they have. The top half of their torsos projects out more then the lower half but it's flattened all across with no cleavage. Something that can realistically be disguised under their larger jumpers. That can be seen on a female player with a small chest wearing the outfit.
The energy versions don't really seem to have TRIBBLE, they just have armour that looks like it would cover where TRIBBLE would be, that makes them look as if they have. The top half of their torsos projects out more then the lower half but it's flattened all across with no cleavage. Something that can realistically be disguised under their larger jumpers. That can be seen on a female player with a small chest wearing the outfit.
Been looking huh?
I saw this thread and decided it was science.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Except for L'Mirens voice, they don't seem that female to me. For one, I don't see any TRIBBLE. Two, their hips aren't that big. Are you sure you're seeing what you think you're seeing?
A species that does not nurse its young would not require TRIBBLE as we know them. Even nursing can be done differently (look up "milk lines" to see what some therapsid predecessors of some Earth mammals did). Also, smaller hips could be allowed by laying eggs OR by a marsupial form of reproduction where the young are not carried all the way to term inside the mother, but in a pouch.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
the whole iconian mission in midnight when on iconia and speaking of the iconians and heralds. it screamed of mass effect 3 inspired asari and thessia, the dominion from ds9 and assassin's creed. im guessing the "females" of iconia require mates, however one iconian specifically stated that the heralds were found and altered, meaning they could be from iconia itself as a sort of subspieces like a aenar on andoria. how this mating happens and produces a new iconian is unknown.
so they were altered in a similar sort of idea as assassin's creed prsented during the ezio storyline and when desmond was alive. going through some of those puzzles to learn how humans were changed from simple ape like creatures by alien contact. these heralds were likely a sort of primate and then they were altered considerably in a similar means to the dominion and the vorta.
as for the changes, the iconians were likely required these changes in order to protect themselves and to become powerful enemies instead of barely capable of harming anything or anyone. but they may have gone too far on their adaption, they are in part energy beings now. long way from their painfully thin looking stick shapes.
The way it sounded to me was the Heralds were like animals...they domesticated them and later they genetically enhanced them so they were more humanoid...or well Iconianoid (Or whatever you want to call them) But it sounded like the Heralds weren't sentient till the Iconians genetically enhanced them to be. So I don't really think Heralds are the males of the species...or a subspecies of Iconians...I think they just made the engineered Heralds in their image...especially since the Heralds think of them as gods.
I wonder if they didn't have armor in all the strategic places and you couldn't see anything, if we would still be having this discussion? They probably couldn't get away with naked Iconians in a MMO.
Which does raise the question of if the Undine, Tholians, and Devidians should put on some clothes. What would such species wear, anyway? Hmmm...
(That said my Devidian toon does do like Odo, and shapeshifts the outfit of his choice as seen below. Impeccable tailoring every time. )
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Except for L'Mirens voice, they don't seem that female to me. For one, I don't see any TRIBBLE. Two, their hips aren't that big. Are you sure you're seeing what you think you're seeing?
A species that does not nurse its young would not require TRIBBLE as we know them. Even nursing can be done differently (look up "milk lines" to see what some therapsid predecessors of some Earth mammals did). Also, smaller hips could be allowed by laying eggs OR by a marsupial form of reproduction where the young are not carried all the way to term inside the mother, but in a pouch.
exactly to the point i made earlier in this thread
"does ALL alien females have to look like human females?"
as far as how they talk ive heard some women that sound very masculine so how they sound has no bearing on their genders and matriarchel societies are more prevelant in nature then patriarchal .
I still think Dividians are involved. They are energy beings that resemble Iconians and their faction logo is the same as the sphere credits. They could be servitors or a type of Herald or something. When the Heralds are out of phase they look like Dividians as well.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I still think Dividians are involved. They are energy beings that resemble Iconians and their faction logo is the same as the sphere credits. They could be servitors or a type of Herald or something. When the Heralds are out of phase they look like Dividians as well.
It's not really satisfying to make everything the fault of the Iconians.
Especially not now that the Iconian arc has been completely jettisoned.
Did anyone else notice that the ancient Iconians were rail-thin and androgynous, but the modern Iconians have womanly figures? Most noticeable is that T'ket had a masculine voice 200,000 years ago but her present form sounds like an angry woman. What gives?
Isn't it obvious? They saw how womanly the Others' females were and were like, "as we've evolved over the centuries, we lost some things. It's time to bring booty back!"
I still think Dividians are involved. They are energy beings that resemble Iconians and their faction logo is the same as the sphere credits. They could be servitors or a type of Herald or something. When the Heralds are out of phase they look like Dividians as well.
It's not really satisfying to make everything the fault of the Iconians.
Especially not now that the Iconian arc has been completely jettisoned.
The Devidians, like the Krenim, are actually one of the few species the Iconians IMO would have had to think twice about tangling with, due to their powerful time travel capabilities. I would actually not be surprised if the Devidians were antagonistic towards the Iconians because they are one of the few who could tell the Iconians what to do with themselves and get away with it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Did anyone else notice that the ancient Iconians were rail-thin and androgynous, but the modern Iconians have womanly figures? Most noticeable is that T'ket had a masculine voice 200,000 years ago but her present form sounds like an angry woman. What gives?
Isn't it obvious? They saw how womanly the Others' females were and were like, "as we've evolved over the centuries, we lost some things. It's time to bring booty back!"
Well, that's what I get for always running around in tight pants.
And since reproduction requires a male and female, that means either the Iconians are hermaphroditic, or the Heralds provide the male part of the DNA.
So in spite of what Cryptic tells us, this leads me to believe that Iconians and Heralds are actually the same species, and they are a matriarchal society. That is the only way their existence makes any sense.
I bet youve never heard of asexual species. While we never see any male Iconians and female Herald, you cant say for sure that there arent any. For all we know the Iconians keep their males and females separate. After all they didnt need to mate often and by the time we show up right before the bombardment, there hadnt been a new birth in over 100 years. And since only females are observed in the 12. There are no males left once Iconia and its colonies are pounded into dust.
As for the Heralds, they are the Iconians pets. Its believed that when humans take dogs as pets, its the male owner/female dog and female owner/male dog combination that makes the tightest bonds between owner and pet. Not a stretch for that to be true for Iconians and Heralds since theyre both capable of emotion and a sense of attachment.
Comments
The Past Iconians were made afterward, and thus, got some extra refinement to their look.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
"On even-centuries we wear pink."
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
For a number of biological reasons I won't go into depth with here (other than citing the existence of certain reptiles capable of parthenogenesis), it's actually not unreasonable that a single-gender species would tend towards a "feminine" phenotype. It makes sense to me that way, rather than being some sort of error.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The functionality being preventing anyone from acting against them when they appear. I mean, when M'Tara appears in the High Council Chamber, everyone is greeted by that:
And when in the Preserver archive, the player is greeted by the other side:
Why do you think no-one tried to stop her these two times?
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
As we have seen no male Iconians, it seems to me that they are a mono-gendered species, sort of like the asari from Mass Effect.
EDIT: Whoops, missed tacofangs' post there.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
(In contrast when I did some background work for the Devidians, I had them as a two-gendered species but had the males and females both seem "male" to our eyes because I wrote them as oviparous and therefore the females have no need to be set up to carry the young to term. Without further detail I stated in my stories that you need a tricorder or telepathic abilities in universe to know if you are dealing with a male or female Devidian. I've seen the Gorn treated similarly in some fanfic as oviparous and therefore mammalian/therapsid species assuming incorrectly that every Gorn they meet is male.)
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Second: Please review all TOS episodes for enlightenment.
Third: Gene would be smiling and nodding his head about now.
With the Gorn I would assume a more reptilian setup (as they are a reptilian species), where although males and females look alike, females are actually bigger than the males. I don't remember how much detail was put into the Gorn Confederation in the Starfleet Command games, but I remember reading somewhere that they were supposed to consist of three species from three different worlds, and that they actually discovered they were the same with a genetic ancestor or something.
They also liked to build their ships to match their outlook on things. Big, slow, hard to kill.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Been looking huh?
I saw this thread and decided it was science.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
A species that does not nurse its young would not require TRIBBLE as we know them. Even nursing can be done differently (look up "milk lines" to see what some therapsid predecessors of some Earth mammals did). Also, smaller hips could be allowed by laying eggs OR by a marsupial form of reproduction where the young are not carried all the way to term inside the mother, but in a pouch.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
The way it sounded to me was the Heralds were like animals...they domesticated them and later they genetically enhanced them so they were more humanoid...or well Iconianoid (Or whatever you want to call them) But it sounded like the Heralds weren't sentient till the Iconians genetically enhanced them to be. So I don't really think Heralds are the males of the species...or a subspecies of Iconians...I think they just made the engineered Heralds in their image...especially since the Heralds think of them as gods.
Which does raise the question of if the Undine, Tholians, and Devidians should put on some clothes. What would such species wear, anyway? Hmmm...
(That said my Devidian toon does do like Odo, and shapeshifts the outfit of his choice as seen below. Impeccable tailoring every time.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
exactly to the point i made earlier in this thread
"does ALL alien females have to look like human females?"
as far as how they talk ive heard some women that sound very masculine so how they sound has no bearing on their genders and matriarchel societies are more prevelant in nature then patriarchal .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It's not really satisfying to make everything the fault of the Iconians.
Especially not now that the Iconian arc has been completely jettisoned.
Its a voyager based arc so plotholes are to be expected
The Devidians, like the Krenim, are actually one of the few species the Iconians IMO would have had to think twice about tangling with, due to their powerful time travel capabilities. I would actually not be surprised if the Devidians were antagonistic towards the Iconians because they are one of the few who could tell the Iconians what to do with themselves and get away with it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Well, that's what I get for always running around in tight pants.
I bet youve never heard of asexual species. While we never see any male Iconians and female Herald, you cant say for sure that there arent any. For all we know the Iconians keep their males and females separate. After all they didnt need to mate often and by the time we show up right before the bombardment, there hadnt been a new birth in over 100 years. And since only females are observed in the 12. There are no males left once Iconia and its colonies are pounded into dust.
As for the Heralds, they are the Iconians pets. Its believed that when humans take dogs as pets, its the male owner/female dog and female owner/male dog combination that makes the tightest bonds between owner and pet. Not a stretch for that to be true for Iconians and Heralds since theyre both capable of emotion and a sense of attachment.