They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
That's what the Borg did prior to the whole Borg Queen FC nonsense. They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate. Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition. They also had no interest in planets or territory, they were roaming cubes only.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate.
What's the difference? When you assimilate an entire species, you pretty much destroy it.
Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition.
Unless you're asking for troubles, assimilating a technology and not a good chunk of people who built and understand it is not a good idea. Ask the Kazons who killed themselves with a replicator (OK, they're dumb, but that's besides the point), or Harry Kim who caused everyone to die with a certain slipstream quantum drive,
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
"Words" wasn't my answer, "Words" was to shorten the quote of your long post so the page wouldn't be as big. My response, appropriately enough, was under the quote. If you wish for me to respond to the rest of your post, I will by request, but as of right now, what I wanted to say I already said.
I apologize for any confusion.
Sorry about my absence for the past few days...work ate my life for a while, but thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.
To the rest of you guys, it is going to take me a loooong time to trawl through this thread as it seems the discussion has really evolved! I am not going to be able to respond to every comment but I will definitely give it a read.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
And isn't it interesting that after the US and China started getting along Star Trek has the Romulans and Federation getting along enough for the Romulan Ambassador to sit in on a high level Starfleet strategy meeting with the Federation President.
Indeed, Trek has always been fond of reflecting the real world through its specific sci fi mirror.
The Romulan cloak has been in use since at least ENT, they've held that advantage over the Federation and Klingons since then, they are not going to give that weapon over to the Klingons whether the Federation can see through it or not. You know why? Because the Klingons now have a cloak. They can improve it to make it undetectable to Federation and Romulan sensors, and they can use it to test how to detect Romulan cloaks. A power doesn't just take an invention they take it apart and make it work, make it reproducible.
Doesn't stop the Klingons from being able to do so does it?
Depends. The Klingons have been the weakest in the sciences for a while, a cultural weakness that grows by the decade. I can see them improving the cloak, but falling behind rapidly.
I'm not saying it's impossible, not at all, I'm just saying there's even less evidence for it in what's been shown than what we're saying.
And, the presence of three diplomats says nothing about the relations between the three powers, it was a relic probably from when the Organians ruined everybodys fun.
I would agree except the Romulans had nothing to do with the Organian Peace Treaty, they weren't even participants in the conflict.
Yes it was. It used to have been going to have been happening (isn't talking about retconed future events in the past fun ) in 1996. Then it didn't. The Eugenics War was WWIII, the first 'w' there is for 'world'. Janeway and crew would have been in the middle of the war, they wern't they didn't even mention it not even how important it would be to get the future tech away in case the 'evil bloke in the East' got hold of it.
No It wasn't. The Eugenics War and World War III both still exist in canon and are separate. The latter was never intended to replace the former. The Eugenics Wars were always depicted as being an event in the 1990s, World War III was mid 21st century. Some have tried to connect the two even saying the former caused the latter in the same way that World War I laid the foundation for World War II, but they are and have been separate conflicts.
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
No. The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans was like the USA and USSR, not that the powers represented the USA and USSR.
That's just being excessively literal you know exactly what I meant. And how in the world are the Klingons the United States in any kind of representative fashion?
The Federation had the United States' freedom and equality traits.
The Klingons in TOS were a brutally oppressive empire where service to the state was paramount. When they were engaging one another Klingons and the Federation battle via proxies. Analogous to the Soviet Union which had the same properties.
The Romulans were impenetrable and unknowable, the "inscrutable oriental" as the stereotype goes, and isolated fascist state that no one knew that much about, just as China was at that time.
I would without any higher contradiction accept official literature over fan opinion, even my own. Especially the TNG Tech Manual. I haven't read the journal however.
Okay, still not canon though.
Considering the people involved in writing the TNG Tech Manual were the people who created TNG it's vastly more canon than your opinion.
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
That's what the Borg did prior to the whole Borg Queen FC nonsense. They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate. Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition. They also had no interest in planets or territory, they were roaming cubes only.
Assimilation was first shown in Best of Both Worlds with Picards conversion to Locutus.
The status of it before is ambiguous at best. They take what is useful. In Q-Who they were shown to grow their own offspring. It could be interpreted that if they choose to assimilate a species then that species is considered to be a worthy addition to the collective, as useful as the technology they develop.
I think the statement, "what the Borg cannot assimilate, they destroy" is the simplest statement on their philosophy in that regard.
Memory Alpha has this to say
While it is not explicitly stated in this episode, the overall ambition of the Borg seems to be the acquisition of technology, not the assimilation of other species as in later episodes. While "The Best of Both Worlds", the next episode to feature the Borg, dealt with this changed premise by stating in dialogue that their objectives had changed, subsequent Borg episodes would ignore it entirely.
The idea that the Borg would assimilate a new technology that would allow them to add entire species to the collective isn't farfetched. The more brains jacked in the smarter the collective becomes. It changes and adds to the threat from a thematic perspective as well. Before the Borg represented technology becoming dominant over man. The Collective assimilating people, adds a new threat, the technology absorbing and obliterating man on the spiritual level, oppressing free will, individuality, creativity, emotion, and expression. The ultimate cog in the machine analogy.
While you call the Queen nonsense, the second you call them a hive mind, you bring the terminology of the hive, which as a queen into thought. That the collective could concentrate its thought into a single drone should be perfectly within its own capabilities. If it truly is a single consciousness then it should be even more literal than the Great Link, "the ocean becomes the drop, the drop becomes the ocean"
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Depends. The Klingons have been the weakest in the sciences for a while, a cultural weakness that grows by the decade. I can see them improving the cloak, but falling behind rapidly.
As much as that seems to be the writers folly it's self evident there must be some Klingons with brains out there. Weapons, propulsions, ships, all need to be upgraded and updated. Cloaks are a weapon of war, I can't see the Klingons leaving them by the wayside.
I'm not saying it's impossible, not at all, I'm just saying there's even less evidence for it in what's been shown than what we're saying.
No It wasn't. The Eugenics War and World War III both still exist in canon and are separate. The latter was never intended to replace the former. The Eugenics Wars were always depicted as being an event in the 1990s, World War III was mid 21st century. Some have tried to connect the two even saying the former caused the latter in the same way that World War I laid the foundation for World War II, but they are and have been separate conflicts.
Except the Eugenics war was clearly retconed to not happen in the 1990s. So unless Earth had two large scale devastating wars right next to each other they have to be the same.
That's just being excessively literal you know exactly what I meant. And how in the world are the Klingons the United States in any kind of representative fashion?
The Federation had the United States' freedom and equality traits.
The Klingons in TOS were a brutally oppressive empire where service to the state was paramount. When they were engaging one another Klingons and the Federation battle via proxies. Analogous to the Soviet Union which had the same properties.
The Romulans were impenetrable and unknowable, the "inscrutable oriental" as the stereotype goes, and isolated fascist state that no one knew that much about, just as China was at that time.
Did you see what I wrote? 'No. The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans was like the USA and USSR, not that the powers represented the USA and USSR.'
You can change the wording if you want.
'like the relationship between the USSR and TRIBBLE Germany in the early stages of the war.' Or 'like the relationship between Red China and the USA'.
I'm talking about how they relate to each other not how they conduct themselves.
Considering the people involved in writing the TNG Tech Manual were the people who created TNG it's vastly more canon than your opinion.
Doesn't matter. It's not onscreen, it's not canon. If they wan't to use that information and make it canon, they should have put it onscreen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That's what the Borg did prior to the whole Borg Queen FC nonsense. They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate. Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition. They also had no interest in planets or territory, they were roaming cubes only.
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Unless you're asking for troubles, assimilating a technology and not a good chunk of people who built and understand it is not a good idea. Ask the Kazons who killed themselves with a replicator (OK, they're dumb, but that's besides the point), or Harry Kim who caused everyone to die with a certain slipstream quantum drive,
Sorry about my absence for the past few days...work ate my life for a while, but thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.
To the rest of you guys, it is going to take me a loooong time to trawl through this thread as it seems the discussion has really evolved!
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Agreed. While species weren't annihilated an enormous amount of the Federation was devastated.
Janeway assimilated, supercubes, Seven reviving the Doomsday Machine, what I saw of it was a bit too much for me.
Depends. The Klingons have been the weakest in the sciences for a while, a cultural weakness that grows by the decade. I can see them improving the cloak, but falling behind rapidly.
I'm not saying it's impossible, not at all, I'm just saying there's even less evidence for it in what's been shown than what we're saying.
I would agree except the Romulans had nothing to do with the Organian Peace Treaty, they weren't even participants in the conflict.
That's just being excessively literal you know exactly what I meant. And how in the world are the Klingons the United States in any kind of representative fashion?
The Federation had the United States' freedom and equality traits.
The Klingons in TOS were a brutally oppressive empire where service to the state was paramount. When they were engaging one another Klingons and the Federation battle via proxies. Analogous to the Soviet Union which had the same properties.
The Romulans were impenetrable and unknowable, the "inscrutable oriental" as the stereotype goes, and isolated fascist state that no one knew that much about, just as China was at that time.
Considering the people involved in writing the TNG Tech Manual were the people who created TNG it's vastly more canon than your opinion.
As much as that seems to be the writers folly it's self evident there must be some Klingons with brains out there. Weapons, propulsions, ships, all need to be upgraded and updated. Cloaks are a weapon of war, I can't see the Klingons leaving them by the wayside.
I'm not saying it's impossible, not at all, I'm just saying there's even less evidence for it in what's been shown than what we're saying.
No, but the opportunity to send some diplomats off for a talk whilst the shooting stopped seems reasonable.
Except the Eugenics war was clearly retconed to not happen in the 1990s. So unless Earth had two large scale devastating wars right next to each other they have to be the same.
Did you see what I wrote? 'No. The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans was like the USA and USSR, not that the powers represented the USA and USSR.'
You can change the wording if you want.
'like the relationship between the USSR and TRIBBLE Germany in the early stages of the war.' Or 'like the relationship between Red China and the USA'.
I'm talking about how they relate to each other not how they conduct themselves.
Doesn't matter. It's not onscreen, it's not canon. If they wan't to use that information and make it canon, they should have put it onscreen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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