As for the Tuterians... Cryptic made a new character model just for Clauda? not likely. Not for a one-off NPC. But they DID make a new character model.
Add that to the fact they said Season 11 will have a new-to-STO enemy....
To continue what I said above, I believe the timeline is capable of absorbing elements from other timelines. Here is a crude example:
A to B, B to A: An Alternate Universe is created when the USS Enterprise-C goes forward in time. The timeline is corrected when the Enterprise goes back to where it belongs, but it returns with the Alternate Universe Tasha Yar who then gives us Sela who plays an important role in the Prime Universe. Tasha Yar didn't vanish when the timeline was corrected because she became a part of, or was absorbed by the Prime Universe. She was necessary for Sela to exist.
C to D, D to C: The Sol System is destroyed in the 29th Century and the Aeon attempts to destroy the USS Voyager and save the future. During the confrontation the two ships go back to the 20th Century and the Aeon is reverse engineered and creates a technology boom which serves as a precursor for future Starfleet tech to begin with. Despite the fact that the future is saved, the Aeon going back in time still happens and gives us our technological revolution. The future was saved but elements from the Alternate Universe were absorbed by the Prime Universe.
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
There is a theory going on the board that the Tuterians are the Sphere Builders that I find credible based both on their appearance and the appearance of their ships in the 26th century (looks like they are related to the Annorax...so I add to that the idea that we'll see Noye throw his lot in with them). As I understood it, they may not have been assimilated, but failed in their experiments with the Solanae tech such that they got themselves stuck where they can't come back (and are thus still effectively removed from the normal timeline). All we know is their experiment failed. But it could've been an assimilation fail OR an industrial accident like the Solanae's.
I'd love to get into the game to listen to Noye's annoying TRIBBLE one more time, but I can't. Fortunately there's Youtube.
He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
Also, the Temporal Incursions are cumulative. So I have two thoughts here. The first change was destroying the archaeological dig preventing the discovery of Iconia. That right there means that Hakeev never had a reason to destroy Hobus. I'm thinking in the first incursion timeline, the idiot proceeded like the normal Tal Shiar trying to experiment with Borg Technology and therefore getting his species assimilated. I like the idea that that fool as long as he lived would be a curse on the Romulans. Therefore if I was actually my Captain I would say just use the Temporal Incursion on that moron. Anyway, the second incursion was the second, which to me is the one that also may have taken out the Tuterians. Without the transwarp gateway that they built to conquer Romulus, it may be that their attention was redirected towards the Tuterians resulting in their assimilation/destruction/ejection.
Whether or not we see the Sphere Builders in future STO seasons I can't say, as it would depend on whether they try *another* technique to get at the Federation when, as you say, their attempt with the Delta Expanse failed.
Agreed, but the Delphic Expanse is necessary for them to attack. The original Temporal Cold War timeline would've had the Sphere Builders active since the 12th century. Can we actually fight a Temporal war that has already been won and therefore doesn't have any signs of existence in the current timeline.
THAT SAID. It's entirely possible for the war to have started in this timeline and been resolved in another timeline with us having never seen any signs of it since it was resolved in this timeline.
The way I see it
-We started off in the "prime" timeline.
-We used the weapon, causing Romulus to be overrun by Borg.
-We used the weapon again, seemingly putting us back in the prime timeline, except in this case the Tuterians are seemingly destroyed
-The Tuterian's apparent destruction is actually the result of a failure of Solane technology, similar to that the Solanae suffered themselves in the dyson sphere, which forced the Tuterians into their inter-dimensional "Sphere builder" realm, just as the Solanae were forced into subspace by the Dyson sphere accident.
-HOWEVER, despite the change in the timeline, we are still in the prime timeline, because said change allowed for the creation of the Sphere Builders, and their interactions in the past in the prime timeline.
In short, it was a predestination paradox, were the prime timeline was destined to be changed, in order to ensure the creation of the sphere Builders we fought in the past.
NOT changing the timeline with the timeship originally would have actually altered the timeline, throwing us out of the prime universe, by preventing the creation of the Sphere Builders. Thus moving us out of the prime timeline into an altered one.
Possible.
Like I said above though, which timeline is it that Sphere Builders were defeated in? The Sphere Builders were defeated twice. First time in the 26th century convinced them that they needed to stop the Federation before it ever started because they couldn't beat the Federation. The second time they were defeated they were defeated in the past in a way that prevented them from ever waging the first war that they lost.
So there is an original timeline where the Sphere Builders never built the Delphic Expanse, lost a war of some kind a century in STO's future.
This gave rise to two timelines, a Second timeline where the Delphic Expanse was created in the past and had covered large swaths of the Galaxy and the Sphere Builders still lost to the Federation. This is the one we witnessed in Azati Prime, that Daniels viewed as history.
There's a third timeline where they then went to the past in order to create the Delphic Expanse to prevent the rise of the power that defeated them, which is ultimately the final Enterprise timeline, where the Delphic Expanse was destroyed and thus the war in the 26th century in the second timeline was made physically impossible. Furthermore like with the destruction of Annorax's original ship, the Enterprise crew's victory also canceled the event that triggered the Temporal War in the first place, basically closing the door on it across the galaxy. It's possible we just laid the foundation for that war in our present.
As for the Tuterians... Cryptic made a new character model just for Clauda? not likely. Not for a one-off NPC. But they DID make a new character model.
Add that to the fact they said Season 11 will have a new-to-STO enemy....
I'm more pissed off that while they made the frankly beautiful Tuterians, I STILL don't have my requested Suliban bridge officer. I want one for my Fed but I'd take one for my Romulan at least, COME ON. Truthfully Tuterians and Suliban could practically be cousins like Romulans and Vulcans.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
While I don't know that what they did had anything to do with the Iconians (perhaps as we did, they simply found the tech lying around unused), it's indeed that idea that rather than getting assimilated, the reason they "don't exist" is that they kicked themselves out of normal spacetime.
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
In the curbstomp universe, it could indeed be that they got hold of the Tuterian and Solanae tech.
Also, the Temporal Incursions are cumulative. So I have two thoughts here. The first change was destroying the archaeological dig preventing the discovery of Iconia. That right there means that Hakeev never had a reason to destroy Hobus. I'm thinking in the first incursion timeline, the idiot proceeded like the normal Tal Shiar trying to experiment with Borg Technology and therefore getting his species assimilated. I like the idea that that fool as long as he lived would be a curse on the Romulans. Therefore if I was actually my Captain I would say just use the Temporal Incursion on that moron. Anyway, the second incursion was the second, which to me is the one that also may have taken out the Tuterians. Without the transwarp gateway that they built to conquer Romulus, it may be that their attention was redirected towards the Tuterians resulting in their assimilation/destruction/ejection.
Things get even more messed up when we remember the strangeness that happened when we shoot the transwarp gate and somehow it erases everything. While that may have just been bad writing, I DID have one idea as to how it might actually have had that effect.
What if Hakeev, in his arrogance and stupidity, thought he could handle ANY Borg tech, and decided to commandeer or build a Borg transwarp gate, just like he was doing incorporating Borg tech into warbirds?
Erasing the gate from existence would mean erasing Hakeev's idea to do the experiment in the first place out of existence. To keep him from having that idea, perhaps the Yamato has to find the Iconians again, so that his attention is split between Iconian and Borg tech...but of course since we did such a slapdash erasure, things didn't quiiiiite go back together the way they were before, in the "first alternate" timeline.
This creates a timeline where the Tuterians (and I suspect, Noye is getting ready to join them) kick off the Temporal Cold War in revenge for what happened.
Our REAL character (not the rash one we saw for most of the episode) comes up in a timeline where the TCW is known and is more hesitant. S/he stonewalls long enough that the temporal core is found before the weapon can be fired.
Whether or not we see the Sphere Builders in future STO seasons I can't say, as it would depend on whether they try *another* technique to get at the Federation when, as you say, their attempt with the Delta Expanse failed.
Agreed, but the Delphic Expanse is necessary for them to attack. The original Temporal Cold War timeline would've had the Sphere Builders active since the 12th century. Can we actually fight a Temporal war that has already been won and therefore doesn't have any signs of existence in the current timeline.
THAT SAID. It's entirely possible for the war to have started in this timeline and been resolved in another timeline with us having never seen any signs of it since it was resolved in this timeline.
Well, for a brief time, a small Delphic Expanse did show up (Archer would've recorded that, and that would be known to the true prime version of our character, as opposed to the one that played most of this episode). And the Sphere Builders can continue to try new incursions we haven't seen before.
[BTW, the remnants of the Delphic Expanse have always been my personal headcanon "explanation" for why the Enterprise in TOS kept stumbling onto alternate Earths: the wounds in that area of space were still healing--a process which has completed by the 24th century (of course the RL explanation is that someone figured out the "alternate Earths" thing we saw in TOS was hokey and bad writing...but we're stuck with it, so that's how I "explain" it).]
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I still say the weapon-ship is going to get self-erased from history again, so nothing in "Butterfly" ever happened at all.
Hmm...that's going to be kind of difficult with the Annorax gamble-ship...
The promo ship doesn't effect the story in any way. And its not even a real incursion ship, just a replica with an antiproton lance in place of the temporal weapon.
He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
While I don't know that what they did had anything to do with the Iconians (perhaps as we did, they simply found the tech lying around unused), it's indeed that idea that rather than getting assimilated, the reason they "don't exist" is that they kicked themselves out of normal spacetime.
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
In the curbstomp universe, it could indeed be that they got hold of the Tuterian and Solanae tech.
Curbstomp Universe.
So Solanae subspace tech, whatever Tuterian technology existed, and Romulan cloaking.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
Also, the Temporal Incursions are cumulative. So I have two thoughts here. The first change was destroying the archaeological dig preventing the discovery of Iconia. That right there means that Hakeev never had a reason to destroy Hobus. I'm thinking in the first incursion timeline, the idiot proceeded like the normal Tal Shiar trying to experiment with Borg Technology and therefore getting his species assimilated. I like the idea that that fool as long as he lived would be a curse on the Romulans. Therefore if I was actually my Captain I would say just use the Temporal Incursion on that moron. Anyway, the second incursion was the second, which to me is the one that also may have taken out the Tuterians. Without the transwarp gateway that they built to conquer Romulus, it may be that their attention was redirected towards the Tuterians resulting in their assimilation/destruction/ejection.
Things get even more messed up when we remember the strangeness that happened when we shoot the transwarp gate and somehow it erases everything. While that may have just been bad writing, I DID have one idea as to how it might actually have had that effect.
What if Hakeev, in his arrogance and stupidity, thought he could handle ANY Borg tech, and decided to commandeer or build a Borg transwarp gate, just like he was doing incorporating Borg tech into warbirds?
Erasing the gate from existence would mean erasing Hakeev's idea to do the experiment in the first place out of existence. To keep him from having that idea, perhaps the Yamato has to find the Iconians again, so that his attention is split between Iconian and Borg tech...but of course since we did such a slapdash erasure, things didn't quiiiiite go back together the way they were before, in the "first alternate" timeline.
Oooh.
I like that. That's brilliant. Completely inline with Hakeev. And funny enough, a direct parallel to his working with the Iconians since he gained access to Iconian gateways. It's not impossible that he discovered a functional one and made direct contact with the Iconians before Hobus. So Hakeev builds a Transwarp conduit out of Borg technology that connects to the Borg transwarp network and the Borg say, thanks, we'll assimilate you now.
This creates a timeline where the Tuterians (and I suspect, Noye is getting ready to join them) kick off the Temporal Cold War in revenge for what happened.
Our REAL character (not the rash one we saw for most of the episode) comes up in a timeline where the TCW is known and is more hesitant. S/he stonewalls long enough that the temporal core is found before the weapon can be fired.
You've had that as a running character theme...I would like to point out that throughout the Butterfly Mission and indeed the missions leading up to it, that the player character's dialogue has consistently almost across the board been questioning and suspicious about the entire temporal incursion idea. This is one of those instances where as the subordinate officer working for the Delta Alliance that we don't actually have the final say regardless of our rank since we don't have the positional authority to shut the thing down.
The Alliance command apparently feels that this is our only hope, and Nog is like, "this sh*t scares me dude".
The only way I feel our character could be more hesitant would be to be actively insubordinate, which hardly seems productive in a fight to the finish like we are.
That said it's clear that after the Incursions, and the failure, that everyone in the alliance is like, ok, we need to step back from this, it's WAY too easy to TRIBBLE this up.
Whether or not we see the Sphere Builders in future STO seasons I can't say, as it would depend on whether they try *another* technique to get at the Federation when, as you say, their attempt with the Delta Expanse failed.
Well it does sound like an Annorax Temporal Loop. Very sad that none of the Year of Hell timeline's data made it through. That self destruct the temporal core solution is very useful.
I'm still curious why they haven't thought of using the Temporal weapon on humanoid targets instead of large things. Hakeev or T'Khet if you could get to her. I'd personally just target the Andromeda Sphere. Logically you'd only affect the Iconians and you'd obliterate their fleet restoring everything their fleet destroyed. At least acknowledge the scenario and tell me about how it would TRIBBLE up the timeline.
Well, for a brief time, a small Delphic Expanse did show up (Archer would've recorded that, and that would be known to the true prime version of our character, as opposed to the one that played most of this episode). And the Sphere Builders can continue to try new incursions we haven't seen before.
[BTW, the remnants of the Delphic Expanse have always been my personal headcanon "explanation" for why the Enterprise in TOS kept stumbling onto alternate Earths: the wounds in that area of space were still healing--a process which has completed by the 24th century (of course the RL explanation is that someone figured out the "alternate Earths" thing we saw in TOS was hokey and bad writing...but we're stuck with it, so that's how I "explain" it).]
Agreed completely, the Delphic Expanse was said to take a while to collapse. It would also explain why Bajor and Cardassia weren't major players until the 24th century when they aren't really that far away, they were on the other side of the expanse's remnants. (Apparently it was high science fiction back in the day though)
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
While I don't know that what they did had anything to do with the Iconians (perhaps as we did, they simply found the tech lying around unused), it's indeed that idea that rather than getting assimilated, the reason they "don't exist" is that they kicked themselves out of normal spacetime.
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
In the curbstomp universe, it could indeed be that they got hold of the Tuterian and Solanae tech.
Curbstomp Universe.
So Solanae subspace tech, whatever Tuterian technology existed, and Romulan cloaking.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
Maybe the Romulans didn't feel it was a fair exchange after all. Maybe they didn't agree to selling the specs for cloaking devices to the Klingons, just give them devices to install in their ships?
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I have only one thing to say to this whole mess, temporal mechanics gives me a migraine and I wish STO would stop with that nonsense.
Or in the immortal words of Chief Petty Officer Miles Edward O'Brien, "I hate temporal mechanics."
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Maybe the Romulans didn't feel it was a fair exchange after all. Maybe they didn't agree to selling the specs for cloaking devices to the Klingons, just give them devices to install in their ships?
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
An interesting thought.
The Klingon and Romulan alignments swapped between the TOS and TNG eras.
The Romulans back then were actually noble, very old Roman style nobility, like Maximus Decimus in Gladiator. Duty bound. The Romulan novels as I understand were good at showing their descent to fascism. In that vein it's possible that the "theft" is Romulan revisionist history cooked up by the Tal Shiar so that Romulans never get back to that we were once allies with the Klingons bit, at least before the Dominion War. While Tiaru of all people would be aware of the lies they spin, that doesn't mean she can see through all of them.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Maybe the Romulans didn't feel it was a fair exchange after all. Maybe they didn't agree to selling the specs for cloaking devices to the Klingons, just give them devices to install in their ships?
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
An interesting thought.
The Klingon and Romulan alignments swapped between the TOS and TNG eras.
The Romulans back then were actually noble, very old Roman style nobility, like Maximus Decimus in Gladiator. Duty bound. The Romulan novels as I understand were good at showing their descent to fascism. In that vein it's possible that the "theft" is Romulan revisionist history cooked up by the Tal Shiar so that Romulans never get back to that we were once allies with the Klingons bit, at least before the Dominion War. While Tiaru of all people would be aware of the lies they spin, that doesn't mean she can see through all of them.
Yeah, I also considered the possibility of some historical revisionism by the Romulan Star Empire (or the Tal'Shiar).
But, considering they had that ship and tech exchange, it seems even more surprising that the Romulans ended up attacking the Klingon Empire at Narada and Khitomer. Or did they just believe the Klingons were weak enough to try it*? Or was it a grudge?
*) But then they terribly miscalculated - in the alternate timeline where the Enterprise C disappears, the Klingons did not just fight back against the Romulans, they overpowered them and then seemed on the verge of defeating the Federation!
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Maybe the Romulans didn't feel it was a fair exchange after all. Maybe they didn't agree to selling the specs for cloaking devices to the Klingons, just give them devices to install in their ships?
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
An interesting thought.
The Klingon and Romulan alignments swapped between the TOS and TNG eras.
The Romulans back then were actually noble, very old Roman style nobility, like Maximus Decimus in Gladiator. Duty bound. The Romulan novels as I understand were good at showing their descent to fascism. In that vein it's possible that the "theft" is Romulan revisionist history cooked up by the Tal Shiar so that Romulans never get back to that we were once allies with the Klingons bit, at least before the Dominion War. While Tiaru of all people would be aware of the lies they spin, that doesn't mean she can see through all of them.
I'll point out one of my harping points:
As fans, we can be like the old Indian story of the three blind men describing an elephant. Each touches a different part and they get into a violent disagreement over what an elephant is.
I think in few cases is this more true than with the Klingons. Relatively few major Klingons have appeared onscreen and fans (and writers, as well, but especially enthusiasts) have tried to form a composite idea of Klingon culture from the Klingons we've seen.
But like a data regression that's a bad fit (or any data regression really), it doesn't really cross through all the data points we have.
To my recollection, there is literally no Klingon in the history of Star Trek who is shown to be hostile to both the Romulans and the Federation. The Klingon/Romulan alliance fell apart, yes. But very few Klingons are anti-Romulan. Worf is and the DVD commentary indicates that the writers intended for Worf to be unique in his opinions and they outright identified him as an unusually racist Klingon where the Romulans go.
The idea that the Khitomer massacre upset the Klingons is purely a fan thing and not very well supported by the shows if you exclude the novels, which tend to lean hard on fan interpretations.
After TOS, over half of the Klingons we see who aren't related to Worf, friends with Worf, or making private concessions to Worf's outrage... are still working WITH the Romulans.
We see Klingons who work with the Romulans (and mistrust the Federation) and we see Klingons who work with the Federation and mistrust the Romulans.
The vibe I get with the Klingons is that they have what amount to two political factions with two different interpretations of their religion and honor. One believes in a concept of honor which resembles valor or our own Beowulf interpretation of heroism. And that is about WINNING at any cost. The victor gets the spoils. That faction sides with the Romulans and probably thinks the Khitomer Colonists had it coming and deserved it for being weak. The other faction sides with the Federation and has an interpretation of honor more rooted in fair play.
Heck, I think it would be interesting if STO reversed the Klingons and Romulans a bit. I wouldn't JUST do that but I think it would resonate more honestly in some ways if we had a Federation on one side of things (and that would include not having Section 31 treated like Starfleet Intelligence) and resurgent Romulans post-destruction on the other. And Klingons as the third party split between the two.
I might even pursue that route in a STO expansion. It might throw people off but it would address concerns about the Romulans not being a "true faction" if we had ten levels with a Romulan and Federation path... and the Klingons had to choose sides for that ten level progression. (Fleets would need some work there.) I think this would be good from a story perspective.
And then maybe eventually have a ten level expansion that's Romulan vs. Klingon path with Feds choosing an alignment in that arc. I think this would be great for the health of factions in the game and would be the direction I'd go longterm once started.
Maybe the Romulans didn't feel it was a fair exchange after all. Maybe they didn't agree to selling the specs for cloaking devices to the Klingons, just give them devices to install in their ships?
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
An interesting thought.
The Klingon and Romulan alignments swapped between the TOS and TNG eras.
The Romulans back then were actually noble, very old Roman style nobility, like Maximus Decimus in Gladiator. Duty bound. The Romulan novels as I understand were good at showing their descent to fascism. In that vein it's possible that the "theft" is Romulan revisionist history cooked up by the Tal Shiar so that Romulans never get back to that we were once allies with the Klingons bit, at least before the Dominion War. While Tiaru of all people would be aware of the lies they spin, that doesn't mean she can see through all of them.
Yeah, I also considered the possibility of some historical revisionism by the Romulan Star Empire (or the Tal'Shiar).
But, considering they had that ship and tech exchange, it seems even more surprising that the Romulans ended up attacking the Klingon Empire at Narada and Khitomer. Or did they just believe the Klingons were weak enough to try it*? Or was it a grudge?
*) But then they terribly miscalculated - in the alternate timeline where the Enterprise C disappears, the Klingons did not just fight back against the Romulans, they overpowered them and then seemed on the verge of defeating the Federation!
Well, the Romulan government in TNG and DS9 runs pretty much entirely on realpolitik, taking whatever action is going to benefit them. In TOS the Federation and Klingons were shooting at each other sporadically, so an alliance with the Klingons screws the Federation. "Yesterday's Enterprise" implies that the Khitomer Accords alliance was breaking down and the Federation and Klingons were on the verge of war. So the Romulans decided to go after some low-hanging fruit while the Klinks were worried about the Federation (though that wasn't the way it worked out in the end because Captain Garrett threw a spanner in the works by dying heroically).
We could also incorporate some of the Diane Duane interpretation of the Romulan version of honor, in which case at Narendra III the Romulans are maybe trying to regain face by avenging something that happened probably decades ago (wild guess, their loss at Klacht D'kel Bracht).
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
"Words" wasn't my answer, "Words" was to shorten the quote of your long post so the page wouldn't be as big. My response, appropriately enough, was under the quote. If you wish for me to respond to the rest of your post, I will by request, but as of right now, what I wanted to say I already said.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
Yeah, it's canon that there was an alliance once between the Klingons and Romulans, that it involved tech exchange, and that it ended badly. But aside from seeing Romulans in rebuilt Klingon ships we don't know WHAT tech was exchanged.... maybe the theft of cloaking tech was the reason the Romulans decided to end the alliance?
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
While I don't know that what they did had anything to do with the Iconians (perhaps as we did, they simply found the tech lying around unused), it's indeed that idea that rather than getting assimilated, the reason they "don't exist" is that they kicked themselves out of normal spacetime.
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
In the curbstomp universe, it could indeed be that they got hold of the Tuterian and Solanae tech.
Also, the Temporal Incursions are cumulative. So I have two thoughts here. The first change was destroying the archaeological dig preventing the discovery of Iconia. That right there means that Hakeev never had a reason to destroy Hobus. I'm thinking in the first incursion timeline, the idiot proceeded like the normal Tal Shiar trying to experiment with Borg Technology and therefore getting his species assimilated. I like the idea that that fool as long as he lived would be a curse on the Romulans. Therefore if I was actually my Captain I would say just use the Temporal Incursion on that moron. Anyway, the second incursion was the second, which to me is the one that also may have taken out the Tuterians. Without the transwarp gateway that they built to conquer Romulus, it may be that their attention was redirected towards the Tuterians resulting in their assimilation/destruction/ejection.
Things get even more messed up when we remember the strangeness that happened when we shoot the transwarp gate and somehow it erases everything. While that may have just been bad writing, I DID have one idea as to how it might actually have had that effect.
What if Hakeev, in his arrogance and stupidity, thought he could handle ANY Borg tech, and decided to commandeer or build a Borg transwarp gate, just like he was doing incorporating Borg tech into warbirds?
Erasing the gate from existence would mean erasing Hakeev's idea to do the experiment in the first place out of existence. To keep him from having that idea, perhaps the Yamato has to find the Iconians again, so that his attention is split between Iconian and Borg tech...but of course since we did such a slapdash erasure, things didn't quiiiiite go back together the way they were before, in the "first alternate" timeline.
This creates a timeline where the Tuterians (and I suspect, Noye is getting ready to join them) kick off the Temporal Cold War in revenge for what happened.
Our REAL character (not the rash one we saw for most of the episode) comes up in a timeline where the TCW is known and is more hesitant. S/he stonewalls long enough that the temporal core is found before the weapon can be fired.
Whether or not we see the Sphere Builders in future STO seasons I can't say, as it would depend on whether they try *another* technique to get at the Federation when, as you say, their attempt with the Delta Expanse failed.
Agreed, but the Delphic Expanse is necessary for them to attack. The original Temporal Cold War timeline would've had the Sphere Builders active since the 12th century. Can we actually fight a Temporal war that has already been won and therefore doesn't have any signs of existence in the current timeline.
THAT SAID. It's entirely possible for the war to have started in this timeline and been resolved in another timeline with us having never seen any signs of it since it was resolved in this timeline.
Well, for a brief time, a small Delphic Expanse did show up (Archer would've recorded that, and that would be known to the true prime version of our character, as opposed to the one that played most of this episode). And the Sphere Builders can continue to try new incursions we haven't seen before.
[BTW, the remnants of the Delphic Expanse have always been my personal headcanon "explanation" for why the Enterprise in TOS kept stumbling onto alternate Earths: the wounds in that area of space were still healing--a process which has completed by the 24th century (of course the RL explanation is that someone figured out the "alternate Earths" thing we saw in TOS was hokey and bad writing...but we're stuck with it, so that's how I "explain" it).]
Temporal Cold War comes after the Conventional War that takes place. People keep forgetting that the Sphere Builders went after the Federation the normal way first and when they realized they couldnt defeat the Federation at its current strength. They turned to manipulating the timeline. This kicked off a multi front intrusion on the timeline from multiple different groups that were interested in their organization or culture getting the upperhand.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
Yeah, it's canon that there was an alliance once between the Klingons and Romulans, that it involved tech exchange, and that it ended badly. But aside from seeing Romulans in rebuilt Klingon ships we don't know WHAT tech was exchanged.... maybe the theft of cloaking tech was the reason the Romulans decided to end the alliance?
Yeah, that's not canon.
The only time it's ever alluded to is in TNG with a line about 'another Klingon Romulan alliance' or something along those lines. That's in. No mention of tech exchange, no mention of how it ended.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
But that's the thing, that line about another alliance directly implies there was once another alliance in the past. And it's always been part of Trek lore when this happened.
Since it never was canonically elaborated, it was widely speculated it could be either the TOS-era (where Romulans got D7s in exchange for their cloaking devices), or prior to the Romulan attack on Khitomer. And that could go two ways, a Klingon-Romulan alliance or a general peace between the 3 powers after the First Khitomer Accords. But the fan favorite that line was referring to the TOS-era.
But that's the thing, that line about another alliance directly implies there was once another alliance in the past. And it's always been part of Trek lore when this happened.
In the same way Wesley's line about the Klingons joining the Federation means the Klingons are part of the Federation? It's an very open to interpretation line that's most likely to have been ignored later on when the writers work out exactly what the relationship between the three powers was.
Since it never was canonically elaborated, it was widely speculated it could be either the TOS-era (where Romulans got D7s in exchange for their cloaking devices), or prior to the Romulan attack on Khitomer. And that could go two ways, a Klingon-Romulan alliance or a general peace between the 3 powers after the First Khitomer Accords. But the fan favorite that line was referring to the TOS-era.
It doesn't matter how widely speculate it is, or even what fans like it. It's still not canon and still makes zero sense.
It's the equivalent of the US in WWII saying 'those Russians have jet planes, lets trade our nukes for them'. (not a perfect analogy as both sides were working on jets and nukes).
Klingons have other ways of getting cloaks and Romulans have other ways of getting ships and alliance is completely unnecessary and out of character for both sides.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
As fans, we can be like the old Indian story of the three blind men describing an elephant. Each touches a different part and they get into a violent disagreement over what an elephant is.
I think in few cases is this more true than with the Klingons. Relatively few major Klingons have appeared onscreen and fans (and writers, as well, but especially enthusiasts) have tried to form a composite idea of Klingon culture from the Klingons we've seen.
But like a data regression that's a bad fit (or any data regression really), it doesn't really cross through all the data points we have.
To my recollection, there is literally no Klingon in the history of Star Trek who is shown to be hostile to both the Romulans and the Federation. The Klingon/Romulan alliance fell apart, yes. But very few Klingons are anti-Romulan. Worf is and the DVD commentary indicates that the writers intended for Worf to be unique in his opinions and they outright identified him as an unusually racist Klingon where the Romulans go.
The idea that the Khitomer massacre upset the Klingons is purely a fan thing and not very well supported by the shows if you exclude the novels, which tend to lean hard on fan interpretations.
After TOS, over half of the Klingons we see who aren't related to Worf, friends with Worf, or making private concessions to Worf's outrage... are still working WITH the Romulans.
We see Klingons who work with the Romulans (and mistrust the Federation) and we see Klingons who work with the Federation and mistrust the Romulans.
The vibe I get with the Klingons is that they have what amount to two political factions with two different interpretations of their religion and honor. One believes in a concept of honor which resembles valor or our own Beowulf interpretation of heroism. And that is about WINNING at any cost. The victor gets the spoils. That faction sides with the Romulans and probably thinks the Khitomer Colonists had it coming and deserved it for being weak. The other faction sides with the Federation and has an interpretation of honor more rooted in fair play.
Heck, I think it would be interesting if STO reversed the Klingons and Romulans a bit. I wouldn't JUST do that but I think it would resonate more honestly in some ways if we had a Federation on one side of things (and that would include not having Section 31 treated like Starfleet Intelligence) and resurgent Romulans post-destruction on the other. And Klingons as the third party split between the two.
I might even pursue that route in a STO expansion. It might throw people off but it would address concerns about the Romulans not being a "true faction" if we had ten levels with a Romulan and Federation path... and the Klingons had to choose sides for that ten level progression. (Fleets would need some work there.) I think this would be good from a story perspective.
And then maybe eventually have a ten level expansion that's Romulan vs. Klingon path with Feds choosing an alignment in that arc. I think this would be great for the health of factions in the game and would be the direction I'd go longterm once started.
Pardon me but I find the idea that the Romulans attacking Narendra and Khitomer didn't TRIBBLE the Klingons off to be ludicrous.
I'm not aware of that DVD commentary, but it's not like it's illogical, he lost his family at a very young age at Khitomer, of course he hates Romulans, they tore his world apart.
We don't actually have that many instances of Klingons and Romulans in the same setting where they would interact. Most of the Klingon interaction in TNG and DS9 was based around their own internal house conflicts. The Romulans were periphery to those conflicts. That said, working with the Romulans was repeatedly shown to be very high treason. The entire conflict between the Houses of Mogh and Duras were built around one house trying to implicate the other in betraying the Klingons to the Romulans. The Mind's Eye, Klingons vs Romulans. In the Enemy it's shown that not only does Worf hate the Romulan, the Romulan hates Worf too. Other instances where we've seen Klingons and Romulans interacting is either a political or otherwise diplomatic setting or in battle. So while to you there's not enough to say that Klingons and Romulans are blood enemies, I'd also say there's not enough to say that they don't hate each other. I think the fact that they seem to avoid each other speaks volumes.
You are correct about the Klingon ethical divide absolutely. There's Worf who's a purist on ethics and honor, described as being a book perfect Klingon since he didn't live in the culture, there's Martok who is a real lived paragon of their ethics and honor, and then there are the Duras who have adapted to the clan politics and have foregone any actual ethics or honor in order to wield the power that dishonor provides by manipulating other people and bringing half the empire into their debt, maintaining only a thin veneer of Klingon Honor so they aren't seen publicly for what they really are.
I disagree on the idea that the Klingons would push aside the attacks as the colonists were weak, primarily because if there's one thing that Klingons universally get behind, it's when one of their own is attacked. It's literally their raison d'etre. It's called the Klingon Defense Force. From their own gods, to the Hurq, to the Dominion, Klingons will fight amongst themselves, but if someone else attacks Klingons, then they immediately unite. That said, the fact that there wasn't some major war with the Romulans after Narendra and Khitomer that we know about, may speak to just how much power and influence the Duras wielded. Why would they permit a war that was the result of their own machinations. It's entirely possible that Duras did that solely to kill off Mogh, who judging by what happened after was a rival.
I've actually wanted a House system for Klingons for years. A kind of long term territorial influence game. Play it out in choice based missions, DOFF assignments, PvE, and even PvP (not my cup of tea). Base it along the same engines that they used for the Delta Recruit Event around, the winner of that week gets a bonus for their faction. Maybe make it non-exclusive in some way so people don't try to game the system. Aligning your honorbound Klingons with the House of Martok, the Federation and the Republic and your victorybound Klingons with the Duras and Romulan Empire. Frankly that's what the story has been set up for, it's just logical. Another thing, don't make it permanent. Make it based on choices (kind of paragon-renegade), so that it simulates the fluidity of Klingon politics.
Yeah, I also considered the possibility of some historical revisionism by the Romulan Star Empire (or the Tal'Shiar).
But, considering they had that ship and tech exchange, it seems even more surprising that the Romulans ended up attacking the Klingon Empire at Narada and Khitomer. Or did they just believe the Klingons were weak enough to try it*? Or was it a grudge?
*) But then they terribly miscalculated - in the alternate timeline where the Enterprise C disappears, the Klingons did not just fight back against the Romulans, they overpowered them and then seemed on the verge of defeating the Federation!
Well, the Romulan government in TNG and DS9 runs pretty much entirely on realpolitik, taking whatever action is going to benefit them. In TOS the Federation and Klingons were shooting at each other sporadically, so an alliance with the Klingons screws the Federation. "Yesterday's Enterprise" implies that the Khitomer Accords alliance was breaking down and the Federation and Klingons were on the verge of war. So the Romulans decided to go after some low-hanging fruit while the Klinks were worried about the Federation (though that wasn't the way it worked out in the end because Captain Garrett threw a spanner in the works by dying heroically).
We could also incorporate some of the Diane Duane interpretation of the Romulan version of honor, in which case at Narendra III the Romulans are maybe trying to regain face by avenging something that happened probably decades ago (wild guess, their loss at Klacht D'kel Bracht).[/quote]
It's also possible that a new Praetor came to power that was opposed to working with Klingons and he decided to scrap the agreement in the most violent way possible.
I would always default to Diana Duane's interpretations on any subject Romulan.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that the Romulans miscalculated. In fact the Romulans do it enough that one would think they don't understand their opponents. The ENT Unity arc illustrates it perfectly. It's almost a racial personality trait.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
What's silly about it? It's one of the straightest lines possible. We know there's an undefined Klingon-Romulan Alliance at some point, and we know that after the Romulans appeared again on the scene in the 23rd century, they started fielding Klingon designs. I would think that theft of a major technology by one of the two biggest imperial powers by the other if not through alliance, would kick off a war. And there's the fact that the Klingons represented the USSR and the Romulans represented Communist China. Them slipping in and out of being friendly is a natural representation.
The theory is based on the, this I will say is silly, hypothesis that the Romulan Bird of Prey didn't have warp drive, so they got the Klingon's power plant technology. That of course is bogus.
The Romulans came off as rather Superweapon obsessed to me, like Tarkin. The Bird of Prey and its plasma torpedo, and that carried through to Enterprise with their drone ship. Those failed, so perhaps the thinking was that they needed a more conventional weapon, so they traded the Klingons for advanced Disruptor technology instead. That would explain why Romulans and Klingons use the same type of disruptors "Disruptor sir, type 3." "Great, that narrows it down to Romulan, Breen, and Klingon."
Stealing cloaking technology from the Suliban isn't logical as it was penetrated in the 22nd century, a gift from the future, and therefore there's no way that they would've been continuing to develop cloaking technology by the mid-23rd century.
We don't know the post-ENT status of the Xyrillians. They could've been conquered by either the Romulans or the Klingons.
The Romulans are the primary major cloaking technology power in the TOS era and beyond and no matter what angle you approach it from the cloaking technology of the three superpowers in the two quadrants is based on Romulan tech.
Yeah, it's canon that there was an alliance once between the Klingons and Romulans, that it involved tech exchange, and that it ended badly. But aside from seeing Romulans in rebuilt Klingon ships we don't know WHAT tech was exchanged.... maybe the theft of cloaking tech was the reason the Romulans decided to end the alliance?
Yeah, that's not canon.
The only time it's ever alluded to is in TNG with a line about 'another Klingon Romulan alliance' or something along those lines. That's in. No mention of tech exchange, no mention of how it ended.[/quote]
You are mistaken it is quite canon. Now where it begins and ends can be debated, as can how many times it started and stopped. But we know when the last Klingon Romulan alliance before the Dominion War ended. Narendra III. The attack on Khitomer was two years after that, but Worf had said that, "they attacked us when we were allies." when he was speaking about how Romulans have no honor.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
What's silly about it? It's one of the straightest lines possible. We know there's an undefined Klingon-Romulan Alliance at some point, and we know that after the Romulans appeared again on the scene in the 23rd century, they started fielding Klingon designs. I would think that theft of a major technology by one of the two biggest imperial powers by the other if not through alliance, would kick off a war. And there's the fact that the Klingons represented the USSR and the Romulans represented Communist China. Them slipping in and out of being friendly is a natural representation.
'What's silly'?
I'd have thought that was obvious, I outlined it in my next post (the nuke example) the Klingons and Romulans are enemies, whether they embroiled in a war or cold war is immaterial, you do not trade massively important military tech to a power you will most likely be at war with in the future not when there are hundreds of little powers out there you could bled for tech.
The Romulans came off as rather Superweapon obsessed to me, like Tarkin. The Bird of Prey and its plasma torpedo, and that carried through to Enterprise with their drone ship. Those failed, so perhaps the thinking was that they needed a more conventional weapon, so they traded the Klingons for advanced Disruptor technology instead. That would explain why Romulans and Klingons use the same type of disruptors "Disruptor sir, type 3." "Great, that narrows it down to Romulan, Breen, and Klingon."
You know what's an easier way to get Klingon disruptors? ambush a D7 with your cloaked ships and take them without having to give anything in return.
When the British wanted the German Enigma they sent the HMS Bulldog (not the Yank's S-33 ) to pick one up, they didn't ring up the Germans and trade the research of the Tube Alloys programme for one.
Stealing cloaking technology from the Suliban isn't logical as it was penetrated in the 22nd century, a gift from the future, and therefore there's no way that they would've been continuing to develop cloaking technology by the mid-23rd century.
Why not? The Suliban still have the future cloaks, if the 22nd century Terrans can put a 31st century cloak in a ship (the NX) then the 23rd century Klingons should be able to do the same.
We don't know the post-ENT status of the Xyrillians. They could've been conquered by either the Romulans or the Klingons.
It's pointed out how close to Klingon space they are, they've already drawn their attention (and given them holodecks), it's hardly a stretch to see the Klingons coming back and taking their cloaks as well.
The Romulans are the primary major cloaking technology power in the TOS era and beyond and no matter what angle you approach it from the cloaking technology of the three superpowers in the two quadrants is based on Romulan tech.
Yes. It's stolen from the Romulans, or at least as far as STO is concerned.
You are mistaken it is quite canon. Now where it begins and ends can be debated, as can how many times it started and stopped. But we know when the last Klingon Romulan alliance before the Dominion War ended. Narendra III. The attack on Khitomer was two years after that, but Worf had said that, "they attacked us when we were allies." when he was speaking about how Romulans have no honor.
I said there was dialogue to indicate a previous alliance but that's it, no other information is given other than it being prior to the attack on Khitomer. For all we know it could be referring to the events of The Undiscovered Country.
Either way, they are both well after TOS.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
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'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
But that's the thing, that line about another alliance directly implies there was once another alliance in the past. And it's always been part of Trek lore when this happened.
Since it never was canonically elaborated, it was widely speculated it could be either the TOS-era (where Romulans got D7s in exchange for their cloaking devices), or prior to the Romulan attack on Khitomer. And that could go two ways, a Klingon-Romulan alliance or a general peace between the 3 powers after the First Khitomer Accords. But the fan favorite that line was referring to the TOS-era.
IIRC one of Worf's rants about why he hates Romulans, and more specifically the Khitomer massacre, mentioned that the Klingons were in some way allied with the Romulans before that happened.
What's silly about it? It's one of the straightest lines possible. We know there's an undefined Klingon-Romulan Alliance at some point, and we know that after the Romulans appeared again on the scene in the 23rd century, they started fielding Klingon designs. I would think that theft of a major technology by one of the two biggest imperial powers by the other if not through alliance, would kick off a war. And there's the fact that the Klingons represented the USSR and the Romulans represented Communist China. Them slipping in and out of being friendly is a natural representation.
'What's silly'?
I'd have thought that was obvious, I outlined it in my next post (the nuke example) the Klingons and Romulans are enemies, whether they embroiled in a war or cold war is immaterial, you do not trade massively important military tech to a power you will most likely be at war with in the future not when there are hundreds of little powers out there you could bled for tech.
You know what's an easier way to get Klingon disruptors? ambush a D7 with your cloaked ships and take them without having to give anything in return.
When the British wanted the German Enigma they sent the HMS Bulldog (not the Yank's S-33 ) to pick one up, they didn't ring up the Germans and trade the research of the Tube Alloys programme for one.
I don't find the nuke analogy to be equivalent. The Cloaking device is the submarine, not the nuclear weapon. A Trilithium Torpedo, that's a nuke.
You're correct though, disruptors were a bad analogy, especially since it's plain that the Romulans acquired Klingon ship designs.
That said if they don't get something worthwhile out of it, then the alliance is pointless to begin with, especially since neither side made any significant moves against the Federation during the alliance or at any point during any of their alliances. There's still the fact that either side stealing tech from the other unless in the most underhanded or deniable operations way should still kick start a war.
I'm not opposed to the alternative though, the idea that Commander Charvanek stole that old D7 and it's a testament to her own awesomeness that she gets to fly her spoil of war is quite compelling. And then twenty years later or so, Kruge gets the Klingon's win back by stealing a Romulan Bird of Prey and its cloaking device. (I was quite fond of that dropped plotline.)
Stealing cloaking technology from the Suliban isn't logical as it was penetrated in the 22nd century, a gift from the future, and therefore there's no way that they would've been continuing to develop cloaking technology by the mid-23rd century.
Why not? The Suliban still have the future cloaks, if the 22nd century Terrans can put a 31st century cloak in a ship (the NX) then the 23rd century Klingons should be able to do the same.
We don't know the post-ENT status of the Xyrillians. They could've been conquered by either the Romulans or the Klingons.
It's pointed out how close to Klingon space they are, they've already drawn their attention (and given them holodecks), it's hardly a stretch to see the Klingons coming back and taking their cloaks as well.
The Romulans are the primary major cloaking technology power in the TOS era and beyond and no matter what angle you approach it from the cloaking technology of the three superpowers in the two quadrants is based on Romulan tech.
Yes. It's stolen from the Romulans, or at least as far as STO is concerned. [/quote]
Well yes that's what we're conversing about, whether that holds water or not. Nor is what we're discussing restricted to STO.
Because the technology to defeat the Suliban's cloaking technology already existed. I was saying that the Suliban wouldn't have made any improvements on that technology. Once their chronologically overpowered benefactors were gone, they would have no basis by which to continue developing the technology.
It was shown that the Suliban cloaks weren't 31st century cloaks when the same tech used on them defeated a Romulan Cloak as well. Future Guy wasn't crazy enough to give them cloaks that were actually 31st century quality, which are probably temporal cloaks or phasing cloaks, but gave them something that is better than what was available in the 22nd century.
I agree the Klingons conquering them is the more likely if they didn't join the Federation.
You are mistaken it is quite canon. Now where it begins and ends can be debated, as can how many times it started and stopped. But we know when the last Klingon Romulan alliance before the Dominion War ended. Narendra III. The attack on Khitomer was two years after that, but Worf had said that, "they attacked us when we were allies." when he was speaking about how Romulans have no honor.
I said there was dialogue to indicate a previous alliance but that's it, no other information is given other than it being prior to the attack on Khitomer. For all we know it could be referring to the events of The Undiscovered Country.
Either way, they are both well after TOS.
So you're saying that the Khitomer Accords established an alliance between all three powers? I doubt that, though I can't recall if the alliance of the big three in the Dominion War was referred to as a first time event. I suppose that's plausible.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
In the same way Wesley's line about the Klingons joining the Federation means the Klingons are part of the Federation? It's an very open to interpretation line that's most likely to have been ignored later on when the writers work out exactly what the relationship between the three powers was.
Klingons have other ways of getting cloaks and Romulans have other ways of getting ships and alliance is completely unnecessary and out of character for both sides.
En contrare it very much fits their characters all too well.
The Romulans are nervous with the recent loss of a BoP by the Federation and they needed something powerful and fast, so they negotate with the Klingons for new ships. And all they had to do was give up a cloaking device or two, but since we are dealing with Romulans, who said they gave them their newest cloaks? They very well could've given them 100 year old cloaking devices. And the Klingons were all too eager, since it gave them a quick tactal edge over the Federation. This pretty much occurred during in the Cold War, where China and Russia did just that. And remember who the Romulans and Klingons were inspired by?
Besides, this very explaination was mentioned in the Star Trek: TNG Technical Journal. So sorry, I'm going to side with official literature.
IIRC one of Worf's rants about why he hates Romulans, and more specifically the Khitomer massacre, mentioned that the Klingons were in some way allied with the Romulans before that happened.
Again, we don't know exactly. Was the attack on Khitomer the end of the First Klingon-Romulan Alliance? Or the peace between the Romulans and Klingons were due to the Second Khitomer Accords (mentioned by Richard Castillo), which was signed only a few years prior?
That's why they call this the "Lost" Era, because there are missing gaps in the lore.
IIRC one of Worf's rants about why he hates Romulans, and more specifically the Khitomer massacre, mentioned that the Klingons were in some way allied with the Romulans before that happened.
Star Trek: The Next Generation "The Neutral Zone" 35:50
After Picard tells him to open a channel to the Romulan Warbird Worf says, "These are Romulans, they are without honor. They killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer, when they were supposed to be our allies. They believe that humans and Klingons are a waste of skin."
That confirms a Klingon Romulan alliance as of 2346. Narendra was 2 years prior, but could've been written off as one commander who was acting alone. Then Khitomer confirmed it. That would actually enforce the idea that they couldn't be trusted at all.
Considering how fluid the power structures are in the Klingon High Council and in Romulan Politics the friends one decade enemies the next thing may not be particularly farfetched at all.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
The issue with that is we know STO timeline up to Butterfly diverged after the destruction of New Romulus.
Wait...how do we know that? There is no canon between Shinzon's death and the destruction of Romulus (I am assuming you meant the old one as Mol'Rihan is still there), so there is no way to tell when the timeline diverged.
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
The issue with that is we know STO timeline up to Butterfly diverged after the destruction of New Romulus.
Wait...how do we know that? There is no canon between Shinzon's death and the destruction of Romulus (I am assuming you meant the old one as Mol'Rihan is still there), so there is no way to tell when the timeline diverged.
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
Yeah, the big point of divergence was basically at Star Trek: Destiny where STO completely ignored a full-scale Borg invasion in 2381 that ended in half of Starfleet dead and the entire Collective liberated.
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Add that to the fact they said Season 11 will have a new-to-STO enemy....
My character Tsin'xing
A to B, B to A: An Alternate Universe is created when the USS Enterprise-C goes forward in time. The timeline is corrected when the Enterprise goes back to where it belongs, but it returns with the Alternate Universe Tasha Yar who then gives us Sela who plays an important role in the Prime Universe. Tasha Yar didn't vanish when the timeline was corrected because she became a part of, or was absorbed by the Prime Universe. She was necessary for Sela to exist.
C to D, D to C: The Sol System is destroyed in the 29th Century and the Aeon attempts to destroy the USS Voyager and save the future. During the confrontation the two ships go back to the 20th Century and the Aeon is reverse engineered and creates a technology boom which serves as a precursor for future Starfleet tech to begin with. Despite the fact that the future is saved, the Aeon going back in time still happens and gives us our technological revolution. The future was saved but elements from the Alternate Universe were absorbed by the Prime Universe.
My character Tsin'xing
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He said they, "tried to replicate the Solanae's work to protect themselves from the Borg. In this timeline, they failed." There's a lot to unpack there.
So twenty years ago first of all is too far back for them to normally get pissed off at the Federation. The only evidence of the incursion is in the temporal core, which wouldn't be available for 20 years nor would they know about it.
Noye throwing in with them is an interesting theory since it's his fault. Few were more gung-ho about using the weapon than he was. That said, he's a jerk genetically so it makes sense he would duck his own share of the blame. Too bad Year of Hell Annorax isn't around to counsel his people. And us.
My natural assumption is that they tried to duplicate the Solanae's work, failed and were assimilated.
It is possible however that by failing in duplicating the Solanae's work they actually kicked themselves out of normal spacetime...which is interesting in itself since that means that they still escaped assimilation. Which raises more questions on just what the Solanae's tech is. What were they researching that the Iconians needed. Was there a malfunction in the sphere's jump drive? Or were they trying to maybe port planet Iconia itself into subspace so the Iconians could live there and they screwed up?
But my original thought was that, they tried to duplicate the Solanae technology, failed unlike in the original timeline, the Borg assimilated both them and the Solanae tech they were working on, which gave them the technological edge needed to curbstomp the Romulans, thus resulting in the new Unimatrix.
Also, the Temporal Incursions are cumulative. So I have two thoughts here. The first change was destroying the archaeological dig preventing the discovery of Iconia. That right there means that Hakeev never had a reason to destroy Hobus. I'm thinking in the first incursion timeline, the idiot proceeded like the normal Tal Shiar trying to experiment with Borg Technology and therefore getting his species assimilated. I like the idea that that fool as long as he lived would be a curse on the Romulans. Therefore if I was actually my Captain I would say just use the Temporal Incursion on that moron. Anyway, the second incursion was the second, which to me is the one that also may have taken out the Tuterians. Without the transwarp gateway that they built to conquer Romulus, it may be that their attention was redirected towards the Tuterians resulting in their assimilation/destruction/ejection.
Agreed, but the Delphic Expanse is necessary for them to attack. The original Temporal Cold War timeline would've had the Sphere Builders active since the 12th century. Can we actually fight a Temporal war that has already been won and therefore doesn't have any signs of existence in the current timeline.
THAT SAID. It's entirely possible for the war to have started in this timeline and been resolved in another timeline with us having never seen any signs of it since it was resolved in this timeline.
Possible.
Like I said above though, which timeline is it that Sphere Builders were defeated in? The Sphere Builders were defeated twice. First time in the 26th century convinced them that they needed to stop the Federation before it ever started because they couldn't beat the Federation. The second time they were defeated they were defeated in the past in a way that prevented them from ever waging the first war that they lost.
So there is an original timeline where the Sphere Builders never built the Delphic Expanse, lost a war of some kind a century in STO's future.
This gave rise to two timelines, a Second timeline where the Delphic Expanse was created in the past and had covered large swaths of the Galaxy and the Sphere Builders still lost to the Federation. This is the one we witnessed in Azati Prime, that Daniels viewed as history.
There's a third timeline where they then went to the past in order to create the Delphic Expanse to prevent the rise of the power that defeated them, which is ultimately the final Enterprise timeline, where the Delphic Expanse was destroyed and thus the war in the 26th century in the second timeline was made physically impossible. Furthermore like with the destruction of Annorax's original ship, the Enterprise crew's victory also canceled the event that triggered the Temporal War in the first place, basically closing the door on it across the galaxy. It's possible we just laid the foundation for that war in our present.
That would be nice. My main Captain actually has "I hate time travel." as a catchphrase (eternal lament). Temporal Affairs is fond of him.
I'm more pissed off that while they made the frankly beautiful Tuterians, I STILL don't have my requested Suliban bridge officer. I want one for my Fed but I'd take one for my Romulan at least, COME ON. Truthfully Tuterians and Suliban could practically be cousins like Romulans and Vulcans.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
Anyway...
While I don't know that what they did had anything to do with the Iconians (perhaps as we did, they simply found the tech lying around unused), it's indeed that idea that rather than getting assimilated, the reason they "don't exist" is that they kicked themselves out of normal spacetime.
In the curbstomp universe, it could indeed be that they got hold of the Tuterian and Solanae tech.
Things get even more messed up when we remember the strangeness that happened when we shoot the transwarp gate and somehow it erases everything. While that may have just been bad writing, I DID have one idea as to how it might actually have had that effect.
What if Hakeev, in his arrogance and stupidity, thought he could handle ANY Borg tech, and decided to commandeer or build a Borg transwarp gate, just like he was doing incorporating Borg tech into warbirds?
Erasing the gate from existence would mean erasing Hakeev's idea to do the experiment in the first place out of existence. To keep him from having that idea, perhaps the Yamato has to find the Iconians again, so that his attention is split between Iconian and Borg tech...but of course since we did such a slapdash erasure, things didn't quiiiiite go back together the way they were before, in the "first alternate" timeline.
This creates a timeline where the Tuterians (and I suspect, Noye is getting ready to join them) kick off the Temporal Cold War in revenge for what happened.
Our REAL character (not the rash one we saw for most of the episode) comes up in a timeline where the TCW is known and is more hesitant. S/he stonewalls long enough that the temporal core is found before the weapon can be fired.
Well, for a brief time, a small Delphic Expanse did show up (Archer would've recorded that, and that would be known to the true prime version of our character, as opposed to the one that played most of this episode). And the Sphere Builders can continue to try new incursions we haven't seen before.
[BTW, the remnants of the Delphic Expanse have always been my personal headcanon "explanation" for why the Enterprise in TOS kept stumbling onto alternate Earths: the wounds in that area of space were still healing--a process which has completed by the 24th century (of course the RL explanation is that someone figured out the "alternate Earths" thing we saw in TOS was hokey and bad writing...but we're stuck with it, so that's how I "explain" it).]
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The promo ship doesn't effect the story in any way. And its not even a real incursion ship, just a replica with an antiproton lance in place of the temporal weapon.
So Solanae subspace tech, whatever Tuterian technology existed, and Romulan cloaking.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
Oooh.
I like that. That's brilliant. Completely inline with Hakeev. And funny enough, a direct parallel to his working with the Iconians since he gained access to Iconian gateways. It's not impossible that he discovered a functional one and made direct contact with the Iconians before Hobus. So Hakeev builds a Transwarp conduit out of Borg technology that connects to the Borg transwarp network and the Borg say, thanks, we'll assimilate you now.
You've had that as a running character theme...I would like to point out that throughout the Butterfly Mission and indeed the missions leading up to it, that the player character's dialogue has consistently almost across the board been questioning and suspicious about the entire temporal incursion idea. This is one of those instances where as the subordinate officer working for the Delta Alliance that we don't actually have the final say regardless of our rank since we don't have the positional authority to shut the thing down.
The Alliance command apparently feels that this is our only hope, and Nog is like, "this sh*t scares me dude".
The only way I feel our character could be more hesitant would be to be actively insubordinate, which hardly seems productive in a fight to the finish like we are.
That said it's clear that after the Incursions, and the failure, that everyone in the alliance is like, ok, we need to step back from this, it's WAY too easy to TRIBBLE this up.
Well it does sound like an Annorax Temporal Loop. Very sad that none of the Year of Hell timeline's data made it through. That self destruct the temporal core solution is very useful.
I'm still curious why they haven't thought of using the Temporal weapon on humanoid targets instead of large things. Hakeev or T'Khet if you could get to her. I'd personally just target the Andromeda Sphere. Logically you'd only affect the Iconians and you'd obliterate their fleet restoring everything their fleet destroyed. At least acknowledge the scenario and tell me about how it would TRIBBLE up the timeline.
Agreed completely, the Delphic Expanse was said to take a while to collapse. It would also explain why Bajor and Cardassia weren't major players until the 24th century when they aren't really that far away, they were on the other side of the expanse's remnants. (Apparently it was high science fiction back in the day though)
Or maybe the deal was what it was, but the way it was arrived at wasn't fair. "Nice colonies you got there along the Klingon border.. Would be terrible if something happened to it... We could sell you some protection..." That would have fit the TOS Klingons that were a lot more underhanded than the TNG era Samurai Warrior Klingons. And the Klingons might not have wanted to fight the Romulans because they were gunning for the Federation at the time. (After all, the only way a Klingon/Federation war didn't break out during that era was because some god-like aliens said no.)
Or in the immortal words of Chief Petty Officer Miles Edward O'Brien, "I hate temporal mechanics."
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An interesting thought.
The Klingon and Romulan alignments swapped between the TOS and TNG eras.
The Romulans back then were actually noble, very old Roman style nobility, like Maximus Decimus in Gladiator. Duty bound. The Romulan novels as I understand were good at showing their descent to fascism. In that vein it's possible that the "theft" is Romulan revisionist history cooked up by the Tal Shiar so that Romulans never get back to that we were once allies with the Klingons bit, at least before the Dominion War. While Tiaru of all people would be aware of the lies they spin, that doesn't mean she can see through all of them.
Yeah, I also considered the possibility of some historical revisionism by the Romulan Star Empire (or the Tal'Shiar).
But, considering they had that ship and tech exchange, it seems even more surprising that the Romulans ended up attacking the Klingon Empire at Narada and Khitomer. Or did they just believe the Klingons were weak enough to try it*? Or was it a grudge?
*) But then they terribly miscalculated - in the alternate timeline where the Enterprise C disappears, the Klingons did not just fight back against the Romulans, they overpowered them and then seemed on the verge of defeating the Federation!
I'll point out one of my harping points:
As fans, we can be like the old Indian story of the three blind men describing an elephant. Each touches a different part and they get into a violent disagreement over what an elephant is.
I think in few cases is this more true than with the Klingons. Relatively few major Klingons have appeared onscreen and fans (and writers, as well, but especially enthusiasts) have tried to form a composite idea of Klingon culture from the Klingons we've seen.
But like a data regression that's a bad fit (or any data regression really), it doesn't really cross through all the data points we have.
To my recollection, there is literally no Klingon in the history of Star Trek who is shown to be hostile to both the Romulans and the Federation. The Klingon/Romulan alliance fell apart, yes. But very few Klingons are anti-Romulan. Worf is and the DVD commentary indicates that the writers intended for Worf to be unique in his opinions and they outright identified him as an unusually racist Klingon where the Romulans go.
The idea that the Khitomer massacre upset the Klingons is purely a fan thing and not very well supported by the shows if you exclude the novels, which tend to lean hard on fan interpretations.
After TOS, over half of the Klingons we see who aren't related to Worf, friends with Worf, or making private concessions to Worf's outrage... are still working WITH the Romulans.
We see Klingons who work with the Romulans (and mistrust the Federation) and we see Klingons who work with the Federation and mistrust the Romulans.
The vibe I get with the Klingons is that they have what amount to two political factions with two different interpretations of their religion and honor. One believes in a concept of honor which resembles valor or our own Beowulf interpretation of heroism. And that is about WINNING at any cost. The victor gets the spoils. That faction sides with the Romulans and probably thinks the Khitomer Colonists had it coming and deserved it for being weak. The other faction sides with the Federation and has an interpretation of honor more rooted in fair play.
Heck, I think it would be interesting if STO reversed the Klingons and Romulans a bit. I wouldn't JUST do that but I think it would resonate more honestly in some ways if we had a Federation on one side of things (and that would include not having Section 31 treated like Starfleet Intelligence) and resurgent Romulans post-destruction on the other. And Klingons as the third party split between the two.
I might even pursue that route in a STO expansion. It might throw people off but it would address concerns about the Romulans not being a "true faction" if we had ten levels with a Romulan and Federation path... and the Klingons had to choose sides for that ten level progression. (Fleets would need some work there.) I think this would be good from a story perspective.
And then maybe eventually have a ten level expansion that's Romulan vs. Klingon path with Feds choosing an alignment in that arc. I think this would be great for the health of factions in the game and would be the direction I'd go longterm once started.
We could also incorporate some of the Diane Duane interpretation of the Romulan version of honor, in which case at Narendra III the Romulans are maybe trying to regain face by avenging something that happened probably decades ago (wild guess, their loss at Klacht D'kel Bracht).
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No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
Temporal Cold War comes after the Conventional War that takes place. People keep forgetting that the Sphere Builders went after the Federation the normal way first and when they realized they couldnt defeat the Federation at its current strength. They turned to manipulating the timeline. This kicked off a multi front intrusion on the timeline from multiple different groups that were interested in their organization or culture getting the upperhand.
Yeah, that's not canon.
The only time it's ever alluded to is in TNG with a line about 'another Klingon Romulan alliance' or something along those lines. That's in. No mention of tech exchange, no mention of how it ended.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Since it never was canonically elaborated, it was widely speculated it could be either the TOS-era (where Romulans got D7s in exchange for their cloaking devices), or prior to the Romulan attack on Khitomer. And that could go two ways, a Klingon-Romulan alliance or a general peace between the 3 powers after the First Khitomer Accords. But the fan favorite that line was referring to the TOS-era.
In the same way Wesley's line about the Klingons joining the Federation means the Klingons are part of the Federation? It's an very open to interpretation line that's most likely to have been ignored later on when the writers work out exactly what the relationship between the three powers was.
It doesn't matter how widely speculate it is, or even what fans like it. It's still not canon and still makes zero sense.
It's the equivalent of the US in WWII saying 'those Russians have jet planes, lets trade our nukes for them'. (not a perfect analogy as both sides were working on jets and nukes).
Klingons have other ways of getting cloaks and Romulans have other ways of getting ships and alliance is completely unnecessary and out of character for both sides.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Pardon me but I find the idea that the Romulans attacking Narendra and Khitomer didn't TRIBBLE the Klingons off to be ludicrous.
I'm not aware of that DVD commentary, but it's not like it's illogical, he lost his family at a very young age at Khitomer, of course he hates Romulans, they tore his world apart.
We don't actually have that many instances of Klingons and Romulans in the same setting where they would interact. Most of the Klingon interaction in TNG and DS9 was based around their own internal house conflicts. The Romulans were periphery to those conflicts. That said, working with the Romulans was repeatedly shown to be very high treason. The entire conflict between the Houses of Mogh and Duras were built around one house trying to implicate the other in betraying the Klingons to the Romulans. The Mind's Eye, Klingons vs Romulans. In the Enemy it's shown that not only does Worf hate the Romulan, the Romulan hates Worf too. Other instances where we've seen Klingons and Romulans interacting is either a political or otherwise diplomatic setting or in battle. So while to you there's not enough to say that Klingons and Romulans are blood enemies, I'd also say there's not enough to say that they don't hate each other. I think the fact that they seem to avoid each other speaks volumes.
You are correct about the Klingon ethical divide absolutely. There's Worf who's a purist on ethics and honor, described as being a book perfect Klingon since he didn't live in the culture, there's Martok who is a real lived paragon of their ethics and honor, and then there are the Duras who have adapted to the clan politics and have foregone any actual ethics or honor in order to wield the power that dishonor provides by manipulating other people and bringing half the empire into their debt, maintaining only a thin veneer of Klingon Honor so they aren't seen publicly for what they really are.
I disagree on the idea that the Klingons would push aside the attacks as the colonists were weak, primarily because if there's one thing that Klingons universally get behind, it's when one of their own is attacked. It's literally their raison d'etre. It's called the Klingon Defense Force. From their own gods, to the Hurq, to the Dominion, Klingons will fight amongst themselves, but if someone else attacks Klingons, then they immediately unite. That said, the fact that there wasn't some major war with the Romulans after Narendra and Khitomer that we know about, may speak to just how much power and influence the Duras wielded. Why would they permit a war that was the result of their own machinations. It's entirely possible that Duras did that solely to kill off Mogh, who judging by what happened after was a rival.
I've actually wanted a House system for Klingons for years. A kind of long term territorial influence game. Play it out in choice based missions, DOFF assignments, PvE, and even PvP (not my cup of tea). Base it along the same engines that they used for the Delta Recruit Event around, the winner of that week gets a bonus for their faction. Maybe make it non-exclusive in some way so people don't try to game the system. Aligning your honorbound Klingons with the House of Martok, the Federation and the Republic and your victorybound Klingons with the Duras and Romulan Empire. Frankly that's what the story has been set up for, it's just logical. Another thing, don't make it permanent. Make it based on choices (kind of paragon-renegade), so that it simulates the fluidity of Klingon politics.
Well, the Romulan government in TNG and DS9 runs pretty much entirely on realpolitik, taking whatever action is going to benefit them. In TOS the Federation and Klingons were shooting at each other sporadically, so an alliance with the Klingons screws the Federation. "Yesterday's Enterprise" implies that the Khitomer Accords alliance was breaking down and the Federation and Klingons were on the verge of war. So the Romulans decided to go after some low-hanging fruit while the Klinks were worried about the Federation (though that wasn't the way it worked out in the end because Captain Garrett threw a spanner in the works by dying heroically).
We could also incorporate some of the Diane Duane interpretation of the Romulan version of honor, in which case at Narendra III the Romulans are maybe trying to regain face by avenging something that happened probably decades ago (wild guess, their loss at Klacht D'kel Bracht).[/quote]
It's also possible that a new Praetor came to power that was opposed to working with Klingons and he decided to scrap the agreement in the most violent way possible.
I would always default to Diana Duane's interpretations on any subject Romulan.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time that the Romulans miscalculated. In fact the Romulans do it enough that one would think they don't understand their opponents. The ENT Unity arc illustrates it perfectly. It's almost a racial personality trait.
What's silly about it? It's one of the straightest lines possible. We know there's an undefined Klingon-Romulan Alliance at some point, and we know that after the Romulans appeared again on the scene in the 23rd century, they started fielding Klingon designs. I would think that theft of a major technology by one of the two biggest imperial powers by the other if not through alliance, would kick off a war. And there's the fact that the Klingons represented the USSR and the Romulans represented Communist China. Them slipping in and out of being friendly is a natural representation.
The theory is based on the, this I will say is silly, hypothesis that the Romulan Bird of Prey didn't have warp drive, so they got the Klingon's power plant technology. That of course is bogus.
The Romulans came off as rather Superweapon obsessed to me, like Tarkin. The Bird of Prey and its plasma torpedo, and that carried through to Enterprise with their drone ship. Those failed, so perhaps the thinking was that they needed a more conventional weapon, so they traded the Klingons for advanced Disruptor technology instead. That would explain why Romulans and Klingons use the same type of disruptors "Disruptor sir, type 3." "Great, that narrows it down to Romulan, Breen, and Klingon."
Stealing cloaking technology from the Suliban isn't logical as it was penetrated in the 22nd century, a gift from the future, and therefore there's no way that they would've been continuing to develop cloaking technology by the mid-23rd century.
We don't know the post-ENT status of the Xyrillians. They could've been conquered by either the Romulans or the Klingons.
The Romulans are the primary major cloaking technology power in the TOS era and beyond and no matter what angle you approach it from the cloaking technology of the three superpowers in the two quadrants is based on Romulan tech.
Yeah, that's not canon.
The only time it's ever alluded to is in TNG with a line about 'another Klingon Romulan alliance' or something along those lines. That's in. No mention of tech exchange, no mention of how it ended.[/quote]
You are mistaken it is quite canon. Now where it begins and ends can be debated, as can how many times it started and stopped. But we know when the last Klingon Romulan alliance before the Dominion War ended. Narendra III. The attack on Khitomer was two years after that, but Worf had said that, "they attacked us when we were allies." when he was speaking about how Romulans have no honor.
'What's silly'?
I'd have thought that was obvious, I outlined it in my next post (the nuke example) the Klingons and Romulans are enemies, whether they embroiled in a war or cold war is immaterial, you do not trade massively important military tech to a power you will most likely be at war with in the future not when there are hundreds of little powers out there you could bled for tech.
You know what's an easier way to get Klingon disruptors? ambush a D7 with your cloaked ships and take them without having to give anything in return.
When the British wanted the German Enigma they sent the HMS Bulldog (not the Yank's S-33
Why not? The Suliban still have the future cloaks, if the 22nd century Terrans can put a 31st century cloak in a ship (the NX) then the 23rd century Klingons should be able to do the same.
It's pointed out how close to Klingon space they are, they've already drawn their attention (and given them holodecks), it's hardly a stretch to see the Klingons coming back and taking their cloaks as well.
Yes. It's stolen from the Romulans, or at least as far as STO is concerned.
I said there was dialogue to indicate a previous alliance but that's it, no other information is given other than it being prior to the attack on Khitomer. For all we know it could be referring to the events of The Undiscovered Country.
Either way, they are both well after TOS.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
I don't find the nuke analogy to be equivalent. The Cloaking device is the submarine, not the nuclear weapon. A Trilithium Torpedo, that's a nuke.
You're correct though, disruptors were a bad analogy, especially since it's plain that the Romulans acquired Klingon ship designs.
That said if they don't get something worthwhile out of it, then the alliance is pointless to begin with, especially since neither side made any significant moves against the Federation during the alliance or at any point during any of their alliances. There's still the fact that either side stealing tech from the other unless in the most underhanded or deniable operations way should still kick start a war.
I'm not opposed to the alternative though, the idea that Commander Charvanek stole that old D7 and it's a testament to her own awesomeness that she gets to fly her spoil of war is quite compelling. And then twenty years later or so, Kruge gets the Klingon's win back by stealing a Romulan Bird of Prey and its cloaking device. (I was quite fond of that dropped plotline.)
Why not? The Suliban still have the future cloaks, if the 22nd century Terrans can put a 31st century cloak in a ship (the NX) then the 23rd century Klingons should be able to do the same.
It's pointed out how close to Klingon space they are, they've already drawn their attention (and given them holodecks), it's hardly a stretch to see the Klingons coming back and taking their cloaks as well.
Yes. It's stolen from the Romulans, or at least as far as STO is concerned. [/quote]
Well yes that's what we're conversing about, whether that holds water or not. Nor is what we're discussing restricted to STO.
Because the technology to defeat the Suliban's cloaking technology already existed. I was saying that the Suliban wouldn't have made any improvements on that technology. Once their chronologically overpowered benefactors were gone, they would have no basis by which to continue developing the technology.
It was shown that the Suliban cloaks weren't 31st century cloaks when the same tech used on them defeated a Romulan Cloak as well. Future Guy wasn't crazy enough to give them cloaks that were actually 31st century quality, which are probably temporal cloaks or phasing cloaks, but gave them something that is better than what was available in the 22nd century.
I agree the Klingons conquering them is the more likely if they didn't join the Federation.
So you're saying that the Khitomer Accords established an alliance between all three powers? I doubt that, though I can't recall if the alliance of the big three in the Dominion War was referred to as a first time event. I suppose that's plausible.
Speculation.
The line was spoken in Star Trek, therefore canon.
En contrare it very much fits their characters all too well.
The Romulans are nervous with the recent loss of a BoP by the Federation and they needed something powerful and fast, so they negotate with the Klingons for new ships. And all they had to do was give up a cloaking device or two, but since we are dealing with Romulans, who said they gave them their newest cloaks? They very well could've given them 100 year old cloaking devices. And the Klingons were all too eager, since it gave them a quick tactal edge over the Federation. This pretty much occurred during in the Cold War, where China and Russia did just that. And remember who the Romulans and Klingons were inspired by?
Besides, this very explaination was mentioned in the Star Trek: TNG Technical Journal. So sorry, I'm going to side with official literature.
Again, we don't know exactly. Was the attack on Khitomer the end of the First Klingon-Romulan Alliance? Or the peace between the Romulans and Klingons were due to the Second Khitomer Accords (mentioned by Richard Castillo), which was signed only a few years prior?
That's why they call this the "Lost" Era, because there are missing gaps in the lore.
Star Trek: The Next Generation "The Neutral Zone" 35:50
After Picard tells him to open a channel to the Romulan Warbird Worf says, "These are Romulans, they are without honor. They killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer, when they were supposed to be our allies. They believe that humans and Klingons are a waste of skin."
That confirms a Klingon Romulan alliance as of 2346. Narendra was 2 years prior, but could've been written off as one commander who was acting alone. Then Khitomer confirmed it. That would actually enforce the idea that they couldn't be trusted at all.
Considering how fluid the power structures are in the Klingon High Council and in Romulan Politics the friends one decade enemies the next thing may not be particularly farfetched at all.
Edit:
The timeline of events seems to work out that way.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Romulan-Klingon_Alliance
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
Yeah, the big point of divergence was basically at Star Trek: Destiny where STO completely ignored a full-scale Borg invasion in 2381 that ended in half of Starfleet dead and the entire Collective liberated.
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