Consider this - Star Trek's Prime Universe has been absent since the conclusion of Yesterday's Enterprise.
The moment Tasha Yar, who had been killed years earlier, re-entered the timeline, now in the past of the Prime Universe, the Prime Universe ceased to exist even though it looked as if it had been restored at the end of the episode.
IOW - Even before Nog and his team messed with the timeline, the timeline was already not ST Prime. If we wanted to repair all the faults of the time line and return it to the Prime Universe, Yar must some how be prevented from getting on Ent-C. Barring that, Ent-C must be destroyed with all hands on board in the past, as it was meant to be.
In short, Sela was never meant to be. And the Romulan power structure would be very different if she was not part of the mix. I believe, Sela is the primary cause of the disruption to the timeline.
Actually if you go back even further.... there are many changes in history that happened even before then. Kirk was responsible for several of them... then there's that time war thing....
So the earliest possible point of divergence can only have been the death of Shinzon. And judging from the details of your link, the point of divergence between STO and the novels is right after the events of Star Trek: Titan - Taking Wing as Ro Laren never had to stand trial and instead joined the Bajoran Militia (and ended up back in Starfleet when Bajor joined the Federation)
So the earliest possible point of divergence can only have been the death of Shinzon. And judging from the details of your link, the point of divergence between STO and the novels is right after the events of Star Trek: Titan - Taking Wing as Ro Laren never had to stand trial and instead joined the Bajoran Militia (and ended up back in Starfleet when Bajor joined the Federation)
History has shown there is zero point to having that argument; all it will do is derail the thread, which has already deviated quite badly already.
Exactly, if you keep to the known (Trek TV, Trek movies, notes from those that made trek) then its a battle of facts. But when you start inviting speculation, that's when arguments really erupt, because it's a battle of beliefs.
I'm not opposed to the alternative though, the idea that Commander Charvanek stole that old D7 and it's a testament to her own awesomeness that she gets to fly her spoil of war is quite compelling. And then twenty years later or so, Kruge gets the Klingon's win back by stealing a Romulan Bird of Prey and its cloaking device. (I was quite fond of that dropped plotline.)
The only problem I have is the large amount of D7s they had, every episode they're in in TOS and TAS shows them in D7s. It could be they're just waving them in the Klingons faces by assigning them all to the NZ.
Because the technology to defeat the Suliban's cloaking technology already existed. I was saying that the Suliban wouldn't have made any improvements on that technology. Once their chronologically overpowered benefactors were gone, they would have no basis by which to continue developing the technology.
Why, I get it's future tech but why would't they be able to muck around with it?
It was shown that the Suliban cloaks weren't 31st century cloaks when the same tech used on them defeated a Romulan Cloak as well. Future Guy wasn't crazy enough to give them cloaks that were actually 31st century quality, which are probably temporal cloaks or phasing cloaks, but gave them something that is better than what was available in the 22nd century.
I wasn't sure when they're supposed to be from but just because they're from the future doesn't mean they won't fall for the same weaknesses as the current ones.
So you're saying that the Khitomer Accords established an alliance between all three powers? I doubt that, though I can't recall if the alliance of the big three in the Dominion War was referred to as a first time event. I suppose that's plausible.
I don't think so, not properly, not an alliance but still allies.
En contrare it very much fits their characters all too well.
The Romulans are nervous with the recent loss of a BoP by the Federation and they needed something powerful and fast, so they negotate with the Klingons for new ships. And all they had to do was give up a cloaking device or two, but since we are dealing with Romulans, who said they gave them their newest cloaks? They very well could've given them 100 year old cloaking devices. And the Klingons were all too eager, since it gave them a quick tactal edge over the Federation. This pretty much occurred during in the Cold War, where China and Russia did just that. And remember who the Romulans and Klingons were inspired by?
The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans is like that between the US and USSR except worse, it took the Dominion to bring them together. It's out of character to be allied even against the Federation.
Besides, this very explaination was mentioned in the Star Trek: TNG Technical Journal. So sorry, I'm going to side with official literature.
Official, not canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
History has shown there is zero point to having that argument; all it will do is derail the thread, which has already deviated quite badly already.
Exactly, if you keep to the known (Trek TV, Trek movies, notes from those that made trek) then its a battle of facts. But when you start inviting speculation, that's when arguments really erupt, because it's a battle of beliefs.
Look, whether you like it or not, these novels exist and parts of them are used by STO. Therefore, they matter.
Look, whether you like it or not, these novels exist and parts of them are used by STO. Therefore, they matter.
I'm sorry, but you are very much wrong! The STO team has said all too many times over the years that the only things that matter to STO are the Star Trek TV Shows and the Movies.
While they openly admitted they took inspriation from some of the Star Trek Novels by borrowing characters, ships, and locations, the novels themselves do not matter!! The Destiny Novels, the Typhon Pact Novels, the TOS Novels, Shatner's Novels, yadda yadda. They do not exist in STO! The only exception is the STO Novel.
If you don't believe me, then by all means ask anyone on the STO Team! Here, ask them on Twitter!
But I wasn't referring to the spoken line by Worf, but your reasoning. Worf may have said it, but doesn't confirm nor deny that was the ending of the first Klingon-Romulan alliance. Hence, speculation.
Remember, the Second Khitomer Accords was signed a few years prior, and that very well could've been what the agreement that the Romulans broke.
Klingons and Romulans is like that between the US and USSR except worse, it took the Dominion to bring them together. It's out of character to be allied even against the Federation.
And yet there was at least two Klingon-Romulan alliances before the Dominion appeared.
On that last subject, I know for my mind and what I thought was established canon as of "The Enterprise Incident" it's interesting that Tiaru referred to the Klingons having stolen cloaking technology...hell Starfleet actually DID steal cloaking technology from the Romulans while as I always understood it the Klingons got it through fair exchange. Unless they're actually going with the old Kruge stole the Bird of Prey storyline from Star Trek III
No. That alliance had always been fanon of the most silly sort. The Romulans would get nothing at all out of giving their biggest, most powerful advantage over to the Klingons.
The Klingons have three ways to get cloaks, steal from the Xyrillians, steal from the Suliban, or steal from the Romulans.
Yeah, it's canon that there was an alliance once between the Klingons and Romulans, that it involved tech exchange, and that it ended badly. But aside from seeing Romulans in rebuilt Klingon ships we don't know WHAT tech was exchanged.... maybe the theft of cloaking tech was the reason the Romulans decided to end the alliance?
How badly is NOT a matter of canon, however.
Considering that almost every Klingon in TNG has dealings with the Romulans.
Worf is not a reliable source of information on Klingons or Romulans. Worf is a reliable source of information on what Worf is saying and feeling at a given moment.
The writers have said they considered Worf a racist against Romulans and atypically so for a Klingon.
For Worf, the loss of his parents (and his honor, but really his birth parents) is the fault of Romulans.
I'm not sure anyone else in Klingon Society is ever shown to really care about the Massacre except as a means of showing sympathy to Worf.
Take J'Dan from "The Drumhead." Worf is flabbergasted that he works for the Romulans and my reading is that J'Dan is equally flabbergasted that it's an issue with another Klingon.
Worf's statements about Klingon culture are not reliable. He longs for the respect of a society that he neither understands nor belongs in. That's the tragedy of Worf.
In lieu of other sources, we've treated Worf as an expert on what Klingons are like.
And that was the intent maybe in season one or two before his arc was really developed but at that point, the intent was that Worf was a typical Klingon and that the Klingons were Federation members. That went out the window when they started developing his arc... and also when the Ferengi failed to be an effective replacement villain.
Had the Ferengi been scary as they were intended to be, the Klingons would be a Federation world and we'd simply accept that Federation tolerance allows Klingons to be Klingons within the Federation. Cultural relatvism would mean that the Federation would tolerate Klingons engaging in drunkenness or blood duels or ritual suicide. It's only the later TNG, DS9, and Voyager that really made the Federation out to be an entity that might be intolerant of Klingon customs.
In Season 1, I can practically imagine Picard saying, "What may seem to me or you to be murder or conquest or piracy might seem to a Klingon to be an important part of their cultural heritage. I don't care for it but I'm not a Klingon... and I favor reforms through dialogue and education, not sanctions or war. That is why it is essential the Federation honors the ambitions of its member worlds, even if those ambitions include things we find distasteful. That doesn't preclude their membership in the Federation, within agreed upon limits and terms that are crafted to their culture and our mutual coexistence. If their conscience demands blood, we let them spill blood, so long as it is a matter of conscience and not simple opportunism."
While not canon, it does shed light intention which until it's disproven, therefore is legitimate information.
To open your mind a little, this is how the novel-verse is seen here, as that sentence is true of both positions. Some people would say the exact same things about you here, because you allow things from after Roddenberry died, and no true Trek could be done without his approval. Others say just Series and Movies, others say what you say, others allow certain novels but not others.
I'm not on that scale; my mind thinks in unity, not binary, and to think only one of those positions is valid is runs the opposite of how my mind works. I think every source should be judged on it's own merits.
The issue with that is we know STO timeline up to Butterfly diverged after the destruction of New Romulus.
Wait...how do we know that? There is no canon between Shinzon's death and the destruction of Romulus (I am assuming you meant the old one as Mol'Rihan is still there), so there is no way to tell when the timeline diverged.
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
Actually the Path to 2409 is generally speaking the canon of the story post Shinzon.
The issue with that is we know STO timeline up to Butterfly diverged after the destruction of New Romulus.
Wait...how do we know that? There is no canon between Shinzon's death and the destruction of Romulus (I am assuming you meant the old one as Mol'Rihan is still there), so there is no way to tell when the timeline diverged.
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
Yeah, the big point of divergence was basically at Star Trek: Destiny where STO completely ignored a full-scale Borg invasion in 2381 that ended in half of Starfleet dead and the entire Collective liberated.
I'm happy for that, I have no love for the Caeliar storyline.
Consider this - Star Trek's Prime Universe has been absent since the conclusion of Yesterday's Enterprise.
The moment Tasha Yar, who had been killed years earlier, re-entered the timeline, now in the past of the Prime Universe, the Prime Universe ceased to exist even though it looked as if it had been restored at the end of the episode.
IOW - Even before Nog and his team messed with the timeline, the timeline was already not ST Prime. If we wanted to repair all the faults of the time line and return it to the Prime Universe, Yar must some how be prevented from getting on Ent-C. Barring that, Ent-C must be destroyed with all hands on board in the past, as it was meant to be.
In short, Sela was never meant to be. And the Romulan power structure would be very different if she was not part of the mix. I believe, Sela is the primary cause of the disruption to the timeline.
That statement is only true if there is no predestination paradox of Sela's birth. It would propose the existence of a universe where the temporal rift never opened in the middle of the battle.
I don't find the nuke analogy to be equivalent. The Cloaking device is the submarine, not the nuclear weapon. A Trilithium Torpedo, that's a nuke.
The cloak is an advantage the Romulans have over the other, everybody had subs.
At what point in time? At what level? Consider how the Germans used U-Boats in WWII, which is what Balance of Terror was based around. Their usage of submarines was the ultimate terror weapon. But it still wasn't the absolute devastation that the nuke was.
Funny enough, in Balance of Terror the Romulan Cloaking Device was defeated. It was improved upon by the Enterprise Incident. It's perfectly Romulan to perfect their cloaking device and give the Klingons last year's model that they know the Federation can detect.
I'm not opposed to the alternative though, the idea that Commander Charvanek stole that old D7 and it's a testament to her own awesomeness that she gets to fly her spoil of war is quite compelling. And then twenty years later or so, Kruge gets the Klingon's win back by stealing a Romulan Bird of Prey and its cloaking device. (I was quite fond of that dropped plotline.)
The only problem I have is the large amount of D7s they had, every episode they're in in TOS and TAS shows them in D7s. It could be they're just waving them in the Klingons faces by assigning them all to the NZ.
It's not a problem, clearly they would analyze and dismantle it to figure out how it works and then start mass production. They'd have to do heavy work to install Romulan compatible systems anyway.
Because the technology to defeat the Suliban's cloaking technology already existed. I was saying that the Suliban wouldn't have made any improvements on that technology. Once their chronologically overpowered benefactors were gone, they would have no basis by which to continue developing the technology.
Why, I get it's future tech but why would't they be able to muck around with it?
Because the Suliban were a society in horrible shape. They'd lost their homeworld and were scattered. They weren't a sovereign nation with a government, they were refugees and nomads. Worse many of their people were beginning to be detained because of suspicion over the acts of the cabal. They maintained no infrastructure and without the help of an outside power I can't see them continuing cloaking technology research, that's a major technology that needs national level support.
It was shown that the Suliban cloaks weren't 31st century cloaks when the same tech used on them defeated a Romulan Cloak as well. Future Guy wasn't crazy enough to give them cloaks that were actually 31st century quality, which are probably temporal cloaks or phasing cloaks, but gave them something that is better than what was available in the 22nd century.
I wasn't sure when they're supposed to be from but just because they're from the future doesn't mean they won't fall for the same weaknesses as the current ones.
I was just saying that the quantum scanning tech that Daniels gave the Enterprise crew to beat the Suliban's cloaks were also effective against the Romulan cloaks. If a 31st century cloak can't do better than 22nd century Romulan technology something is wrong.
Future Guy giving the Suliban technology that far ahead of the curve could cause problems for the timeline. The Temporal Cold War was about manipulating the past and that's best done with finesse.
So you're saying that the Khitomer Accords established an alliance between all three powers? I doubt that, though I can't recall if the alliance of the big three in the Dominion War was referred to as a first time event. I suppose that's plausible.
I don't think so, not properly, not an alliance but still allies.
OK.
I also saw another instance where the three powers cooperated. Nimbus III and the peace project there was started in roughly 2267, so after the Romulans returned in the 23rd century there was apparently an attempt at a peace accord.
En contrare it very much fits their characters all too well.
The Romulans are nervous with the recent loss of a BoP by the Federation and they needed something powerful and fast, so they negotate with the Klingons for new ships. And all they had to do was give up a cloaking device or two, but since we are dealing with Romulans, who said they gave them their newest cloaks? They very well could've given them 100 year old cloaking devices. And the Klingons were all too eager, since it gave them a quick tactal edge over the Federation. This pretty much occurred during in the Cold War, where China and Russia did just that. And remember who the Romulans and Klingons were inspired by?
The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans is like that between the US and USSR except worse, it took the Dominion to bring them together. It's out of character to be allied even against the Federation.
Besides, this very explaination was mentioned in the Star Trek: TNG Technical Journal. So sorry, I'm going to side with official literature.
Official, not canon.
The Eugenics war was not in fact retconned. It wasn't really brought up. Even Future's End was set in America. If you look at America in World War I, World War II, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, the Gulf War, and more relevantly, the War on Terror encompassing the Afghan War and the Second Iraq War, then plainly the fact that there was no evidence of the Eugenics War in California is simply business as usual. America is a phenomenally poor visual indicator on whether or not there's a major conflict in the world. Khan ruled in Asia in his time, which makes sense as it would be far easier to take over the former Soviet States and third world countries and all of the nations that were struggling through upheavals than try to take over the functioning superpowers.
Now why they didn't touch on it again is also somewhat reasonable. Star Trek is generally speaking, a show about the future, not the past.
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
I would without any higher contradiction accept official literature over fan opinion, even my own. Especially the TNG Tech Manual. I haven't read the journal however.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
And isn't it interesting that after the US and China started getting along Star Trek has the Romulans and Federation getting along enough for the Romulan Ambassador to sit in on a high level Starfleet strategy meeting with the Federation President.
The issue with that is we know STO timeline up to Butterfly diverged after the destruction of New Romulus.
Wait...how do we know that? There is no canon between Shinzon's death and the destruction of Romulus (I am assuming you meant the old one as Mol'Rihan is still there), so there is no way to tell when the timeline diverged.
Even If you took the novel timeline into account, the point of divergence would be much earlier. In the books, for example, Bajor became a Federation member a few years before it did in STO's timeline. Also, President Bacco served a few full terms and then retired in STO whereas she was assasinated in the novels.
Yeah, the big point of divergence was basically at Star Trek: Destiny where STO completely ignored a full-scale Borg invasion in 2381 that ended in half of Starfleet dead and the entire Collective liberated.
I'm happy for that, I have no love for the Caeliar storyline.
Also the sheer number of races that got wiped out in that story was absurd. Grimdark overload! uuugggghhhh.... Seriously...
While not canon, it does shed light intention which until it's disproven, therefore is legitimate information.
It's not. It's not canon and doesn't count whether it ends up disproved or not, it has no more bearing on this than the books or comics or games or toys do. Which is to say, none at all.
At what point in time? At what level? Consider how the Germans used U-Boats in WWII, which is what Balance of Terror was based around. Their usage of submarines was the ultimate terror weapon. But it still wasn't the absolute devastation that the nuke was.
Funny enough, in Balance of Terror the Romulan Cloaking Device was defeated. It was improved upon by the Enterprise Incident. It's perfectly Romulan to perfect their cloaking device and give the Klingons last year's model that they know the Federation can detect.
The Romulan cloak has been in use since at least ENT, they've held that advantage over the Federation and Klingons since then, they are not going to give that weapon over to the Klingons whether the Federation can see through it or not. You know why? Because the Klingons now have a cloak. They can improve it to make it undetectable to Federation and Romulan sensors, and they can use it to test how to detect Romulan cloaks. A power doesn't just take an invention they take it apart and make it work, make it reproducible.
Because the Suliban were a society in horrible shape. They'd lost their homeworld and were scattered. They weren't a sovereign nation with a government, they were refugees and nomads. Worse many of their people were beginning to be detained because of suspicion over the acts of the cabal. They maintained no infrastructure and without the help of an outside power I can't see them continuing cloaking technology research, that's a major technology that needs national level support.
Doesn't stop the Klingons from being able to do so does it?
I also saw another instance where the three powers cooperated. Nimbus III and the peace project there was started in roughly 2267, so after the Romulans returned in the 23rd century there was apparently an attempt at a peace accord.
And, the presence of three diplomats says nothing about the relations between the three powers, it was a relic probably from when the Organians ruined everybodys fun.
The Eugenics war was not in fact retconned. It wasn't really brought up. Even Future's End was set in America. If you look at America in World War I, World War II, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, the Gulf War, and more relevantly, the War on Terror encompassing the Afghan War and the Second Iraq War, then plainly the fact that there was no evidence of the Eugenics War in California is simply business as usual. America is a phenomenally poor visual indicator on whether or not there's a major conflict in the world. Khan ruled in Asia in his time, which makes sense as it would be far easier to take over the former Soviet States and third world countries and all of the nations that were struggling through upheavals than try to take over the functioning superpowers.
Now why they didn't touch on it again is also somewhat reasonable. Star Trek is generally speaking, a show about the future, not the past.
Yes it was. It used to have been going to have been happening (isn't talking about retconed future events in the past fun ) in 1996. Then it didn't. The Eugenics War was WWIII, the first 'w' there is for 'world'. Janeway and crew would have been in the middle of the war, they wern't they didn't even mention it not even how important it would be to get the future tech away in case the 'evil bloke in the East' got hold of it.
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
No. The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans was like the USA and USSR, not that the powers represented the USA and USSR.
I would without any higher contradiction accept official literature over fan opinion, even my own. Especially the TNG Tech Manual. I haven't read the journal however.
Okay, still not canon though.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
There is one constant in time-travel stories: the walls of text of people pointing (right or wrong) things out and having countless hypotheses that other people will agree, disagree with or give alternate version(s) of.
And that's not even including predestination or pogo paradoxes, or even the unintended collateral damages.
As soon as a time-travel story is made, someone is bound to mention how some parts of it make no sense, no matter how hard you try to make the story right.
Right now, what I'm concerned about is according to the info we have, we only have one last mission to solve the whole Iconian arc and not only we haven't made any progress (apart from causing a species to seemingly disappear from normal space, give Noye a beard and make him lose his one morality chain), but we still have new stuff happening (with the Iconians targetting the Romulans more than the rest of the Alliance for a mysterious reason) which makes the story arc feel more at its first half than the very end.
And I'm not even talking about the Season 11 reveal trailer and info which has one heck of an horrible timing.
Well, no races were actually wiped out in Destiny either. I imagine it's pretty difficult to wipe out a race whose members are scattered all across the quadrant.
Take Humans for example. Even if you glassed Earth, there'd still be several colonies as well as all those humans traveling aboard starships or working/living on other member worlds.
Once you become truly spacefaring, it becomes real hard to wipe you out completely.
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
To open your mind a little, this is how the novel-verse is seen here, as that sentence is true of both positions. Some people would say the exact same things about you here, because you allow things from after Roddenberry died, and no true Trek could be done without his approval. Others say just Series and Movies, others say what you say, others allow certain novels but not others.
I'm not on that scale; my mind thinks in unity, not binary, and to think only one of those positions is valid is runs the opposite of how my mind works. I think every source should be judged on it's own merits.
It's now apparent you are trolling. Nobody in their right mind cites the novels as sources of canon in regards to Star Trek.
While not canon, it does shed light intention which until it's disproven, therefore is legitimate information.
It's not. It's not canon and doesn't count whether it ends up disproved or not, it has no more bearing on this than the books or comics or games or toys do. Which is to say, none at all.
So the people who were behind the actual inclusion of the term or lines that were spoken in Star Trek don't know what they are saying? Riiiiiight.
When it comes to canon, I'll believe them long before I believe someone else.
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
Ah, I see. Still though.... It's the sort of story that is pretty much impossible for later writers to follow.
That is twice now you've decided to say only your view of canon is correct when that statement is inherently wrong; I think you need to look in the mirror.
Artan42's position is purely shows and movies - yours shows, movies, plus selected extras you like, but only those bits. Consequently, you decide to get into an argument with them despite the fact the position they are coming from is a stricter "more canon" interpretation than yours, which by your own admission is better; "You ignore it, because the novels don't exist. Only thing matters is the TV Shows and the Movies."
But you still argue, defending your position on the spectrum with the same logic written in a different way as me.
Our discussion started off with you jumping at the chance to shout "only the bits I like are canon" by its inverse "the bits I don't like aren't canon" and then decided to ignore the point I was making by going off on a tangent about the Devs of STO when I was talking about the wider picture you refuse to accept at all, even going so far as to claim they don't exist; which is a very different claim to "they are not relevant to the subject" - that's fine, if not an opinion I agree with, but to say they don't exist is an untrue claim, since they do exist.
No one citing novels has tried to ram down someone else's throat something, they've been civil; they simply asked what I was looking at, I gave the source, and it was discussed from there, diverting into interesting if off-topic asides like the nature of what is the "prime" timeline and the fate of races who have their homeworld glassed.
You however, opened page 3 with two counts of shouting down the opinions of others who were considering novels, then decided to ignore the point, then accuse me of trolling while citing stuff not "TV Shows and the Movies" to artan42, who is doing the same as you; like you, they have their own standard of canon and interpretation of canon, which differs from yours - so you decide to attack them, not realising you are the subject of your own retort; "Exactly, if you keep to the known (Trek TV, Trek movies, notes from those that made trek) then its a battle of facts. But when you start inviting speculation, that's when arguments really erupt, because it's a battle of beliefs." - not withstanding you've added to your definition of accepted Trek here.
And yet you accuse me of trolling, just because I point out that other people have different opinions, specifically different to you both in being more strict and less strict?
I must say, as an autistic person, this is a fascinating insight into people right now...
Also the sheer number of races that got wiped out in that story was absurd. Grimdark overload! uuugggghhhh.... Seriously...
And yet the books having been in happy optimistic exploration story mode for the past 2 years, where as Star Trek Online is in grim dark war of doom story mode and will be starting their optimistic exploration story mode with a full scale invasion from another universe/another war.
Also the sheer number of races that got wiped out in that story was absurd. Grimdark overload! uuugggghhhh.... Seriously...
And yet the books having been in happy optimistic exploration story mode for the past 2 years, where as Star Trek Online is in grim dark war of doom story mode and will be starting their optimistic exploration story mode with a full scale invasion from another universe/another war.
Really? the same books with the same story? that seems unlikely. There are several novel-verses....
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
That's what the Borg did prior to the whole Borg Queen FC nonsense. They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate. Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition. They also had no interest in planets or territory, they were roaming cubes only.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They didn't assimilate anything. After Janeway had destroyed their transwarp network they switched from assimlilation to "EXTERMINATE!!!". They destroyed a lot of worlds (Risa and Khitomer amongst the more famous ones). I don't remember any species being gone, though.
They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate.
What's the difference? When you assimilate an entire species, you pretty much destroy it.
Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition.
Unless you're asking for troubles, assimilating a technology and not a good chunk of people who built and understand it is not a good idea. Ask the Kazons who killed themselves with a replicator (OK, they're dumb, but that's besides the point), or Harry Kim who caused everyone to die with a certain slipstream quantum drive,
The problem with attempting to insert a variable character such as any playable STO captain in a fiction is that if used in the same "role" in a universe, each individual captain would have their own "universe" where they would be in that place, meaning that only one of them could possibly be in that situation in any given universe. So by extension, it is illogical to call it "the player character" when it is merely just one of such viable characters among thousands.
If you disagree with my theory, please state your reasons for the disagreement instead of just saying "Words." That kind of thing doesn't lend itself to productive conversation. As to the point you DID raise with an actual attempt to explain it, I don't see how that is germane; it seems like a very insignificant nitpick.
"Words" wasn't my answer, "Words" was to shorten the quote of your long post so the page wouldn't be as big. My response, appropriately enough, was under the quote. If you wish for me to respond to the rest of your post, I will by request, but as of right now, what I wanted to say I already said.
I apologize for any confusion.
Sorry about my absence for the past few days...work ate my life for a while, but thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.
To the rest of you guys, it is going to take me a loooong time to trawl through this thread as it seems the discussion has really evolved! I am not going to be able to respond to every comment but I will definitely give it a read.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
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My character Tsin'xing
So umm, what do we do with that information?
You ignore it, because the novels don't exist. Only thing matters is the TV Shows and the Movies.
History has shown there is zero point to having that argument; all it will do is derail the thread, which has already deviated quite badly already.
Exactly, if you keep to the known (Trek TV, Trek movies, notes from those that made trek) then its a battle of facts. But when you start inviting speculation, that's when arguments really erupt, because it's a battle of beliefs.
The cloak is an advantage the Romulans have over the other, everybody had subs.
The only problem I have is the large amount of D7s they had, every episode they're in in TOS and TAS shows them in D7s. It could be they're just waving them in the Klingons faces by assigning them all to the NZ.
Why, I get it's future tech but why would't they be able to muck around with it?
I wasn't sure when they're supposed to be from but just because they're from the future doesn't mean they won't fall for the same weaknesses as the current ones.
I don't think so, not properly, not an alliance but still allies.
Nope, said onscreen and not corrected.
So ST has never had retcons? Or did the Eugenics Wars happen in the 90's, say right about the time the VOY crew were on Earth?
The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans is like that between the US and USSR except worse, it took the Dominion to bring them together. It's out of character to be allied even against the Federation.
Official, not canon.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Look, whether you like it or not, these novels exist and parts of them are used by STO. Therefore, they matter.
I'm sorry, but you are very much wrong! The STO team has said all too many times over the years that the only things that matter to STO are the Star Trek TV Shows and the Movies.
While they openly admitted they took inspriation from some of the Star Trek Novels by borrowing characters, ships, and locations, the novels themselves do not matter!! The Destiny Novels, the Typhon Pact Novels, the TOS Novels, Shatner's Novels, yadda yadda. They do not exist in STO! The only exception is the STO Novel.
If you don't believe me, then by all means ask anyone on the STO Team! Here, ask them on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/Salami_Inferno
https://twitter.com/BorticusCryptic
https://twitter.com/Tumerboy
But I wasn't referring to the spoken line by Worf, but your reasoning. Worf may have said it, but doesn't confirm nor deny that was the ending of the first Klingon-Romulan alliance. Hence, speculation.
Remember, the Second Khitomer Accords was signed a few years prior, and that very well could've been what the agreement that the Romulans broke.
In order for it to be a retcon, there would need to be something from a succeeding episode that negates what was intitially said.
And yet there was at least two Klingon-Romulan alliances before the Dominion appeared.
While not canon, it does shed light intention which until it's disproven, therefore is legitimate information.
How badly is NOT a matter of canon, however.
Considering that almost every Klingon in TNG has dealings with the Romulans.
Worf is not a reliable source of information on Klingons or Romulans. Worf is a reliable source of information on what Worf is saying and feeling at a given moment.
The writers have said they considered Worf a racist against Romulans and atypically so for a Klingon.
For Worf, the loss of his parents (and his honor, but really his birth parents) is the fault of Romulans.
I'm not sure anyone else in Klingon Society is ever shown to really care about the Massacre except as a means of showing sympathy to Worf.
Take J'Dan from "The Drumhead." Worf is flabbergasted that he works for the Romulans and my reading is that J'Dan is equally flabbergasted that it's an issue with another Klingon.
Worf's statements about Klingon culture are not reliable. He longs for the respect of a society that he neither understands nor belongs in. That's the tragedy of Worf.
In lieu of other sources, we've treated Worf as an expert on what Klingons are like.
And that was the intent maybe in season one or two before his arc was really developed but at that point, the intent was that Worf was a typical Klingon and that the Klingons were Federation members. That went out the window when they started developing his arc... and also when the Ferengi failed to be an effective replacement villain.
Had the Ferengi been scary as they were intended to be, the Klingons would be a Federation world and we'd simply accept that Federation tolerance allows Klingons to be Klingons within the Federation. Cultural relatvism would mean that the Federation would tolerate Klingons engaging in drunkenness or blood duels or ritual suicide. It's only the later TNG, DS9, and Voyager that really made the Federation out to be an entity that might be intolerant of Klingon customs.
In Season 1, I can practically imagine Picard saying, "What may seem to me or you to be murder or conquest or piracy might seem to a Klingon to be an important part of their cultural heritage. I don't care for it but I'm not a Klingon... and I favor reforms through dialogue and education, not sanctions or war. That is why it is essential the Federation honors the ambitions of its member worlds, even if those ambitions include things we find distasteful. That doesn't preclude their membership in the Federation, within agreed upon limits and terms that are crafted to their culture and our mutual coexistence. If their conscience demands blood, we let them spill blood, so long as it is a matter of conscience and not simple opportunism."
To open your mind a little, this is how the novel-verse is seen here, as that sentence is true of both positions. Some people would say the exact same things about you here, because you allow things from after Roddenberry died, and no true Trek could be done without his approval. Others say just Series and Movies, others say what you say, others allow certain novels but not others.
I'm not on that scale; my mind thinks in unity, not binary, and to think only one of those positions is valid is runs the opposite of how my mind works. I think every source should be judged on it's own merits.
I'm happy for that, I have no love for the Caeliar storyline.
That statement is only true if there is no predestination paradox of Sela's birth. It would propose the existence of a universe where the temporal rift never opened in the middle of the battle.
At what point in time? At what level? Consider how the Germans used U-Boats in WWII, which is what Balance of Terror was based around. Their usage of submarines was the ultimate terror weapon. But it still wasn't the absolute devastation that the nuke was.
Funny enough, in Balance of Terror the Romulan Cloaking Device was defeated. It was improved upon by the Enterprise Incident. It's perfectly Romulan to perfect their cloaking device and give the Klingons last year's model that they know the Federation can detect.
It's not a problem, clearly they would analyze and dismantle it to figure out how it works and then start mass production. They'd have to do heavy work to install Romulan compatible systems anyway.
Because the Suliban were a society in horrible shape. They'd lost their homeworld and were scattered. They weren't a sovereign nation with a government, they were refugees and nomads. Worse many of their people were beginning to be detained because of suspicion over the acts of the cabal. They maintained no infrastructure and without the help of an outside power I can't see them continuing cloaking technology research, that's a major technology that needs national level support.
I was just saying that the quantum scanning tech that Daniels gave the Enterprise crew to beat the Suliban's cloaks were also effective against the Romulan cloaks. If a 31st century cloak can't do better than 22nd century Romulan technology something is wrong.
Future Guy giving the Suliban technology that far ahead of the curve could cause problems for the timeline. The Temporal Cold War was about manipulating the past and that's best done with finesse.
OK.
I also saw another instance where the three powers cooperated. Nimbus III and the peace project there was started in roughly 2267, so after the Romulans returned in the 23rd century there was apparently an attempt at a peace accord.
The Eugenics war was not in fact retconned. It wasn't really brought up. Even Future's End was set in America. If you look at America in World War I, World War II, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, the Gulf War, and more relevantly, the War on Terror encompassing the Afghan War and the Second Iraq War, then plainly the fact that there was no evidence of the Eugenics War in California is simply business as usual. America is a phenomenally poor visual indicator on whether or not there's a major conflict in the world. Khan ruled in Asia in his time, which makes sense as it would be far easier to take over the former Soviet States and third world countries and all of the nations that were struggling through upheavals than try to take over the functioning superpowers.
Now why they didn't touch on it again is also somewhat reasonable. Star Trek is generally speaking, a show about the future, not the past.
No. The Federation is the United States, The Klingons are the Soviets, and The Romulans are Communist China. Remember this was a time when China was inscrutable and unknowable because Mao had closed them off from the outside world to create his Agrarian Communist Utopia. His view of communism contradicted aspects of the USSR's industrial communism and as a result they became very hostile to each other at times. The only thing they hated more than each other at times was the USA. Note that this characterization was established, before Nixon went to China.
I would without any higher contradiction accept official literature over fan opinion, even my own. Especially the TNG Tech Manual. I haven't read the journal however.
And isn't it interesting that after the US and China started getting along Star Trek has the Romulans and Federation getting along enough for the Romulan Ambassador to sit in on a high level Starfleet strategy meeting with the Federation President.
My character Tsin'xing
It's not. It's not canon and doesn't count whether it ends up disproved or not, it has no more bearing on this than the books or comics or games or toys do. Which is to say, none at all.
The Romulan cloak has been in use since at least ENT, they've held that advantage over the Federation and Klingons since then, they are not going to give that weapon over to the Klingons whether the Federation can see through it or not. You know why? Because the Klingons now have a cloak. They can improve it to make it undetectable to Federation and Romulan sensors, and they can use it to test how to detect Romulan cloaks. A power doesn't just take an invention they take it apart and make it work, make it reproducible.
Doesn't stop the Klingons from being able to do so does it?
And, the presence of three diplomats says nothing about the relations between the three powers, it was a relic probably from when the Organians ruined everybodys fun.
Yes it was. It used to have been going to have been happening (isn't talking about retconed future events in the past fun
No. The relationship between the Klingons and Romulans was like the USA and USSR, not that the powers represented the USA and USSR.
Okay, still not canon though.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And that's not even including predestination or pogo paradoxes, or even the unintended collateral damages.
As soon as a time-travel story is made, someone is bound to mention how some parts of it make no sense, no matter how hard you try to make the story right.
Right now, what I'm concerned about is according to the info we have, we only have one last mission to solve the whole Iconian arc and not only we haven't made any progress (apart from causing a species to seemingly disappear from normal space, give Noye a beard and make him lose his one morality chain), but we still have new stuff happening (with the Iconians targetting the Romulans more than the rest of the Alliance for a mysterious reason) which makes the story arc feel more at its first half than the very end.
And I'm not even talking about the Season 11 reveal trailer and info which has one heck of an horrible timing.
My character Tsin'xing
Take Humans for example. Even if you glassed Earth, there'd still be several colonies as well as all those humans traveling aboard starships or working/living on other member worlds.
Once you become truly spacefaring, it becomes real hard to wipe you out completely.
My character Tsin'xing
It's now apparent you are trolling. Nobody in their right mind cites the novels as sources of canon in regards to Star Trek.
So the people who were behind the actual inclusion of the term or lines that were spoken in Star Trek don't know what they are saying? Riiiiiight.
When it comes to canon, I'll believe them long before I believe someone else.
My character Tsin'xing
Artan42's position is purely shows and movies - yours shows, movies, plus selected extras you like, but only those bits. Consequently, you decide to get into an argument with them despite the fact the position they are coming from is a stricter "more canon" interpretation than yours, which by your own admission is better; "You ignore it, because the novels don't exist. Only thing matters is the TV Shows and the Movies."
But you still argue, defending your position on the spectrum with the same logic written in a different way as me.
Our discussion started off with you jumping at the chance to shout "only the bits I like are canon" by its inverse "the bits I don't like aren't canon" and then decided to ignore the point I was making by going off on a tangent about the Devs of STO when I was talking about the wider picture you refuse to accept at all, even going so far as to claim they don't exist; which is a very different claim to "they are not relevant to the subject" - that's fine, if not an opinion I agree with, but to say they don't exist is an untrue claim, since they do exist.
No one citing novels has tried to ram down someone else's throat something, they've been civil; they simply asked what I was looking at, I gave the source, and it was discussed from there, diverting into interesting if off-topic asides like the nature of what is the "prime" timeline and the fate of races who have their homeworld glassed.
You however, opened page 3 with two counts of shouting down the opinions of others who were considering novels, then decided to ignore the point, then accuse me of trolling while citing stuff not "TV Shows and the Movies" to artan42, who is doing the same as you; like you, they have their own standard of canon and interpretation of canon, which differs from yours - so you decide to attack them, not realising you are the subject of your own retort; "Exactly, if you keep to the known (Trek TV, Trek movies, notes from those that made trek) then its a battle of facts. But when you start inviting speculation, that's when arguments really erupt, because it's a battle of beliefs." - not withstanding you've added to your definition of accepted Trek here.
And yet you accuse me of trolling, just because I point out that other people have different opinions, specifically different to you both in being more strict and less strict?
I must say, as an autistic person, this is a fascinating insight into people right now...
And yet the books having been in happy optimistic exploration story mode for the past 2 years, where as Star Trek Online is in grim dark war of doom story mode and will be starting their optimistic exploration story mode with a full scale invasion from another universe/another war.
My character Tsin'xing
That's what the Borg did prior to the whole Borg Queen FC nonsense. They destroyed the El Aurian society, not assimilate. Original Borg assimilated technology, not people, and destroyed any opposition. They also had no interest in planets or territory, they were roaming cubes only.
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Unless you're asking for troubles, assimilating a technology and not a good chunk of people who built and understand it is not a good idea. Ask the Kazons who killed themselves with a replicator (OK, they're dumb, but that's besides the point), or Harry Kim who caused everyone to die with a certain slipstream quantum drive,
Sorry about my absence for the past few days...work ate my life for a while, but thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.
To the rest of you guys, it is going to take me a loooong time to trawl through this thread as it seems the discussion has really evolved!
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.