The main reason I even thought about EC sinks is to help out against the rising AH prices. I'm broke myself ingame so I'm not really targeting my fellow broke people. I'm mostly going after that "1%" that is sitting on the EC cap for themselves, their account bank, and fleet bank that is still making more money.
No I'm not trying to "eat the rich". In my perfect world, the Richie Riches would have over the top but not gamebreaking shinies to show off with while those who are not there yet would have more choices of where to spend their money besides on the AH, leading to higher prices on everything.
For example, you could pay the AH for some over 10 million EC gear or could use a NPC that will charge 90% less that to "reforge" your gear with new stats.
Right now you can make EC just staying still, without never firing a shot. Just about anything you can do ingame makes EC. And that becomes a bad thing where is so few ways to get rid of it.
I understand that anything that touches your money is scary so how about a small step. Have NPCs sell white versions of consoles. This will give new characters an easier time while leveling. Everyone would sell the same items, not counting tactical consoles. Feds would sell phaser/photon, Klingons would have disruptor/photon, and the Republic would have plasma/plasma torp. Pretty much the same way it is now with weapons.
i would be happy to pay 10m ec or so for the skill respec, im always wanting to play around with my characters skill tree whenever i get a new ship or trying something different , but 500z a go puts me off doing it as much as id like .
Not all of us have the full billion and it is wrong to make this game where the rich get richer and the non-billionaires get f**ked over and over.
I have to object to this, it's wrong. If they sold exclusive ostentatious cosmetic stuff for 1 billion EC, the rich would not get richer. They would get less rich, 1b EC less rich. But they would get something to show off, something the poor couldn't have.
The rich wouldnt get richer, they'd just get fancier.
Mmmm agreed, give the EC whales more toys but, don't incorporate more forced EC sinks!
Some people are under the assumption that everyone is rich in this game. I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack but you guys know damn well there are many players that have trouble getting together 1 million EC. That's a fact in this game and playerbase. More forced resource sinks isn't going to help Captain Average Joe in STO.
So far my EC sinks has been the Reps and Fleet projects. Other than buying some odd lockbox loot from the Exchange. So I really don't need EC sinks. I have yet hit the EC cap of 10k.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The game does need some sort of optional EC sink since other than consumables/commodities there are very few ways to remove EC from the game (there are a few, but they are limited in my opinion - or they end up in the accounts of players that have stopped playing, essentially staying within the overall game system) and that's leading to inflation in EC prices of desirable items on the exchange (i.e. lockbox keys, fleet modules etc) especially as the rich are getting ever richer (due to being the ones selling all the items on the exchange and accumulating the EC) and the poor are staying poor (due to buying all the stuff from the exchange with what little EC they have).
Perhaps one of the best options to combat this problem is to remove boosts from the C-Store (which lets face it are a waste of zen in most players view anyway for the cost versus the benefits given) and put them in an EC store (at a price which both makes them attractive to players for the gains given, but yet supports removal of EC from the game system as a whole). This also has the benefit of not being a must have feature, but does provide a useful bonus to players that can afford them (without being pay to win).
The other option might be to allow EC to be traded easily for some other desirable reward (Spec XP to address that problem?), otherwise we'll continue to see overall inflation in the EC prices of exchange traded items longer term and I would expect Cryptic's database shows that the total amount of EC in circulation continues to grow on a daily basis as well.
Some people are under the assumption that everyone is rich in this game. I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack but you guys know damn well there are many players that have trouble getting together 1 million EC. That's a fact in this game and playerbase. More forced resource sinks isn't going to help Captain Average Joe in STO.
As I stated before. I don't want to steal EC from anyone. Just want to give it more worth by giving it more places where it can be used.
I mean think about it. What is EC sink ingame now is most used? I would think the rep system and then with that you get some of your money back thanks to selling gear you don't want.
Maybe, if vendor trash was actually useful for something, the money supply wouldn't increase so quickly. People don't want common and uncommon gear; even some rare items don't sell for more than vendor prices. Cryptic should provide a way to for people to craft the gear they want from items that are currently considered useless. That would give those items an underlying value that doesn't depend on the price floor provided by vendors.
But if you're looking for something flashy for the rich to spend their billions on, I say allow them buy a moon.
Maybe, if vendor trash was actually useful for something, the money supply wouldn't increase so quickly. People don't want common and uncommon gear; even some rare items don't sell for more than vendor prices. Cryptic should provide a way to for people to craft the gear they want from items that are currently considered useless. That would give those items an underlying value that doesn't depend on the price floor provided by vendors.
But if you're looking for something flashy for the rich to spend their billions on, I say allow them buy a moon.
Breaking down unwanted items into crafting mats would be nice.
EC sinks are called fleet holdings. We just got a new one in 10.5 . This thread was over before it began.
Besides, we already have plenty of EC sinks: they're called Superior Tech Upgrades.
This thread was over before it began.
You (and a few others) don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of an EC-/Currency sink. An EC-sink is something that removes large amounts of EC from the system, to a point where it effects ingame economy and the value of the EC.
Player A selling something to Player B for a large amount of EC IS NOT a sink. It's redistribution. It will shift EC around but not remove it. The fleet system isn't much of an EC sink either, as the amount it removes from the game is so miniscule that it doesn't effect the economy in the least bit, neither is the rep system.
A true EC sink would be something like a vendor who sells a per-character-unlock T6U Constitution or T6U Miranda for 500 million EC. THAT would remove large amounts of EC and add some value to the currency again.
There hasn't been a recent game change to the rate of generation of new EC into the game.
What has changed is the media message that's been going out to players. Valikinfx has been giving advice to players on how to make ec. It only takes a few players to achieve monopoly power for some goods, & Valk's audience is the largest STO audience on Twitch.
In short, Valikinfx's advice has been "buy cheap things from the exchange & mark up the price" - he is strongly opposed to undercutting and makes compelling cases to his Twitch & YouTube viewers. This leads to inflated prices, which leads to threads like this one. (Long version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYtwOJIRUwE)
The OP & his supporters are underestimating the power of the media. The timing from when Valk recommends a tactic to use on the exchange (or an obscure but OP item) and when the price of something moves is telling.
DPS-Bronze, DPS-Silver, DPS-Gold, etc. are FAKE! They were created by an outvoted minority who destroyed the original DPS channels!
Tactical Team sucked, once upon a time. I got it buffed. Don't think for a minute that Cryptic ignores forum feedback.
Maybe, if vendor trash was actually useful for something, the money supply wouldn't increase so quickly. People don't want common and uncommon gear; even some rare items don't sell for more than vendor prices. Cryptic should provide a way to for people to craft the gear they want from items that are currently considered useless. That would give those items an underlying value that doesn't depend on the price floor provided by vendors.
What about breaking the items down to components as a crafting function?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
My stance on the matter. Yes they are needed. What they should be is a harder question.
Don't reply with "Cryptic will never do it.", I'm not asking Cryptic, I'm asking you.
How would you feel if some character level c-store items could be brought with EC from NPCs? Things like more doff slots, boff slots, respecs, and the like. The c-store versions would still be there as an easier way to get these things. Yes, no, maybe, I don't know, should I repeat the question?
Do you think EC sinks are not needed and if not what do you think are good EC sinks?
Could you elaborate? Why do you think we need EC sinks? Do you feel you personally have too much EC and gain it at what you consider too fast of a rate? Is the price of goods on the Exchange higher than what you think they should be? Do you feel that other players have too much EC?
I am not trying to troll you here, I just think that a little more information would be useful.
Edit...meh hot thread got away frome me
Yeah, as discussed before it wont work unless you throttle EC input, because EC generation is easy. If you are looking to control inflation, good luck with that. The exchange isn't a sink, for those who think it is. A sink would pemanently remove the currency from the game ( whatever is spent), and the exchange only transfers the currency from one player to another. The currency is still in the in game economy.
My stance on the matter. Yes they are needed. What they should be is a harder question.
Don't reply with "Cryptic will never do it.", I'm not asking Cryptic, I'm asking you.
How would you feel if some character level c-store items could be brought with EC from NPCs? Things like more doff slots, boff slots, respecs, and the like. The c-store versions would still be there as an easier way to get these things. Yes, no, maybe, I don't know, should I repeat the question?
Do you think EC sinks are not needed and if not what do you think are good EC sinks?
Could you elaborate? Why do you think we need EC sinks? Do you feel you personally have too much EC and gain it at what you consider too fast of a rate? Is the price of goods on the Exchange higher than what you think they should be? Do you feel that other players have too much EC?
I am not trying to troll you here, I just think that a little more information would be useful.
Edit...meh hot thread got away frome me
Yeah, as discussed before it wont work unless you throttle EC input, because EC generation is easy. If you are looking to control inflation, good luck with that. The exchange isn't a sink, for those who think it is. A sink would pemanently remove the currency from the game ( whatever is spent), and the exchange only transfers the currency from one player to another. The currency is still in the in game economy.
I can try.
Inflation and I just don't really feel EC has much of a use.
nope.avi
Yes
Yes
My biggest dream with a new EC sink is to give EC worth again. Nothing that does not cost EC should have an EC cost slap to it.
It seems to me people don't know the difference between inflation and supply/demand pricing. Certainly I haven't seen anyone show a price index that measures ingame inflation to even demonstrate the rate of inflation, if there is one.
The majority of pricing in game follows supply/demand rules and that means certain items, especially from lockboxes, are extremely expensive because they are extremely rare and highly sought after, while other equally rare items are much less expensive because they are not wanted.
Some people are under the assumption that everyone is rich in this game. I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack but you guys know damn well there are many players that have trouble getting together 1 million EC. That's a fact in this game and playerbase. More forced resource sinks isn't going to help Captain Average Joe in STO.
REally?? dude, just selling 50 contraband in the exchange gives you already more than 2 million... i think the problem is most of the times that you dont have any idea how to get ec. It has nothing to do with being rich or not.
It seems to me people don't know the difference between inflation and supply/demand pricing. Certainly I haven't seen anyone show a price index that measures ingame inflation to even demonstrate the rate of inflation, if there is one.
The majority of pricing in game follows supply/demand rules and that means certain items, especially from lockboxes, are extremely expensive because they are extremely rare and highly sought after, while other equally rare items are much less expensive because they are not wanted.
You might have a point. Well my thought out changes is mostly targeting the demand for EC. I want to see more places where players would want (not have) to spend EC.
The GPL store filled with old FE rewards, a way to get consoles with having to deal with mobs/the exchange/crafting, a way to reroll mods on a piece of gear, and more places where players can remove EC from the game and get well rewarded for it would be nice.
The largest chunks of EC is moved around using the Exchange or trading between players. If you don't think having this "old money" moving around while players can just about do anything to make more does not create inflation then what does?
No. Only the Robber Barons will end in a better place. Everyone else will end up getting scr*wed.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It seems to me people don't know the difference between inflation and supply/demand pricing. Certainly I haven't seen anyone show a price index that measures ingame inflation to even demonstrate the rate of inflation, if there is one.
The majority of pricing in game follows supply/demand rules and that means certain items, especially from lockboxes, are extremely expensive because they are extremely rare and highly sought after, while other equally rare items are much less expensive because they are not wanted.
You might have a point. Well my thought out changes is mostly targeting the demand for EC. I want to see more places where players would want (not have) to spend EC.
The GPL store filled with old FE rewards, a way to get consoles with having to deal with mobs/the exchange/crafting, a way to reroll mods on a piece of gear, and more places where players can remove EC from the game and get well rewarded for it would be nice.
The largest chunks of EC is moved around using the Exchange or trading between players. If you don't think having this "old money" moving around while players can just about do anything to make more does not create inflation then what does?
I don't think those particular ideas are bad, but the issue with inflation is that it first must be measured. Then it has to be proven to be a problem at the rate measured. Contrary to popular belief, inflation is not usually even a bad thing.
Inflation means the market can stay liquid. Hyperinflation is bad, but there is not even a shred of evidence pointing to that.
At least in my experience, I think the rate of EC generation is actually quite poor. There are a ton of sinks out there as it is and there are not really enough ways to replace those losses at the rate I can go through them. Because of that I virtually never buy anything off the market. I can't afford to.
What I do earn from sales I try to save and am very unwilling to spend it on anything given my general, negative rate of EC generation. Reproduce that on a macro scale and you have a deflationary economy, which means most people would not buy things because they have to be stingy with their EC.
I used to be able to buy things on the market, before a lot of the more recent changes, but I've definitely felt the hit to my pockets in game. I really don't want more sinks because in a general, long term sense means I, and everyone else, will likely start to have trouble selling things on the market.
It seems to me people don't know the difference between inflation and supply/demand pricing. Certainly I haven't seen anyone show a price index that measures ingame inflation to even demonstrate the rate of inflation, if there is one.
The majority of pricing in game follows supply/demand rules and that means certain items, especially from lockboxes, are extremely expensive because they are extremely rare and highly sought after, while other equally rare items are much less expensive because they are not wanted.
You might have a point. Well my thought out changes is mostly targeting the demand for EC. I want to see more places where players would want (not have) to spend EC.
The GPL store filled with old FE rewards, a way to get consoles with having to deal with mobs/the exchange/crafting, a way to reroll mods on a piece of gear, and more places where players can remove EC from the game and get well rewarded for it would be nice.
The largest chunks of EC is moved around using the Exchange or trading between players. If you don't think having this "old money" moving around while players can just about do anything to make more does not create inflation then what does?
I don't think those particular ideas are bad, but the issue with inflation is that it first must be measured. Then it has to be proven to be a problem at the rate measured. Contrary to popular belief, inflation is not usually even a bad thing.
Inflation means the market can stay liquid. Hyperinflation is bad, but there is not even a shred of evidence pointing to that.
At least in my experience, I think the rate of EC generation is actually quite poor. There are a ton of sinks out there as it is and there are not really enough ways to replace those losses at the rate I can go through them. Because of that I virtually never buy anything off the market. I can't afford to.
What I do earn from sales I try to save and am very unwilling to spend it on anything given my general, negative rate of EC generation. Reproduce that on a macro scale and you have a deflationary economy, which means most people would not buy things because they have to be stingy with their EC.
I used to be able to buy things on the market, before a lot of the more recent changes, but I've definitely felt the hit to my pockets in game. I really don't want more sinks because in a general, long term sense means I, and everyone else, will likely start to have trouble selling things on the market.
Good point about inflation being measured (not sure about that part of it being good). The only thing I have to point toward the rise in prices is key sales on the exchange but I'm not willing to say that is 100% proof of anything at the moment.
I'm in the same boat that you are in. Unless I rack up contraband gathering doff missions, farm gear in the PVP battlezones, and run a farming mission from the foundry all at once I'm not really pulling in a ton of EC.
This is kind of where we start to disagree. My stance on this is a market where EC has worth creates something else. Lower prices as sellers have to really try to get people to part with their money. Someone earlier in the thread posted a video where someone was telling players to buy low and sell high. Pretty much just try to flip stuff. This becomes the normal and prices start to rise. I think we are already there but it might become even more of a deal, we will have a lot of "old money" sitting on high controlling pricing. If a new player wants to get geared they are most likely going to have start trying to flip items or most likely grind EC for the exchange.
My goal is not to punish the everyman, it is to give his money more spending power.
I have wasted almost 1 billion EC on gear upgrades before I quit this game. I think thats more than enough. New and casual players won't ever be able to upgrade all gear. Before the upgrade system was introduced I never spend more than ~100mio EC for 1 set of items.
Some people are under the assumption that everyone is rich in this game. I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack but you guys know damn well there are many players that have trouble getting together 1 million EC. That's a fact in this game and playerbase. More forced resource sinks isn't going to help Captain Average Joe in STO.
REally?? dude, just selling 50 contraband in the exchange gives you already more than 2 million... i think the problem is most of the times that you dont have any idea how to get ec. It has nothing to do with being rich or not.
LOL, getting rich by selling contraband? Me is getting richer buying contraband.
nice u wasted so much time in your sig - i do not see it anyway
Comments
Besides, we already have plenty of EC sinks: they're called Superior Tech Upgrades.
This thread was over before it began.
No I'm not trying to "eat the rich". In my perfect world, the Richie Riches would have over the top but not gamebreaking shinies to show off with while those who are not there yet would have more choices of where to spend their money besides on the AH, leading to higher prices on everything.
For example, you could pay the AH for some over 10 million EC gear or could use a NPC that will charge 90% less that to "reforge" your gear with new stats.
Right now you can make EC just staying still, without never firing a shot. Just about anything you can do ingame makes EC. And that becomes a bad thing where is so few ways to get rid of it.
I understand that anything that touches your money is scary so how about a small step. Have NPCs sell white versions of consoles. This will give new characters an easier time while leveling. Everyone would sell the same items, not counting tactical consoles. Feds would sell phaser/photon, Klingons would have disruptor/photon, and the Republic would have plasma/plasma torp. Pretty much the same way it is now with weapons.
Everyone can see that.
Mmmm agreed, give the EC whales more toys but, don't incorporate more forced EC sinks!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Perhaps one of the best options to combat this problem is to remove boosts from the C-Store (which lets face it are a waste of zen in most players view anyway for the cost versus the benefits given) and put them in an EC store (at a price which both makes them attractive to players for the gains given, but yet supports removal of EC from the game system as a whole). This also has the benefit of not being a must have feature, but does provide a useful bonus to players that can afford them (without being pay to win).
The other option might be to allow EC to be traded easily for some other desirable reward (Spec XP to address that problem?), otherwise we'll continue to see overall inflation in the EC prices of exchange traded items longer term and I would expect Cryptic's database shows that the total amount of EC in circulation continues to grow on a daily basis as well.
As I stated before. I don't want to steal EC from anyone. Just want to give it more worth by giving it more places where it can be used.
I mean think about it. What is EC sink ingame now is most used? I would think the rep system and then with that you get some of your money back thanks to selling gear you don't want.
But if you're looking for something flashy for the rich to spend their billions on, I say allow them buy a moon.
Breaking down unwanted items into crafting mats would be nice.
Why? Having a bad idea is something I use to but people not trying tell me why is said idea is bad is new to me
You (and a few others) don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of an EC-/Currency sink. An EC-sink is something that removes large amounts of EC from the system, to a point where it effects ingame economy and the value of the EC.
Player A selling something to Player B for a large amount of EC IS NOT a sink. It's redistribution. It will shift EC around but not remove it. The fleet system isn't much of an EC sink either, as the amount it removes from the game is so miniscule that it doesn't effect the economy in the least bit, neither is the rep system.
A true EC sink would be something like a vendor who sells a per-character-unlock T6U Constitution or T6U Miranda for 500 million EC. THAT would remove large amounts of EC and add some value to the currency again.
What has changed is the media message that's been going out to players. Valikinfx has been giving advice to players on how to make ec. It only takes a few players to achieve monopoly power for some goods, & Valk's audience is the largest STO audience on Twitch.
In short, Valikinfx's advice has been "buy cheap things from the exchange & mark up the price" - he is strongly opposed to undercutting and makes compelling cases to his Twitch & YouTube viewers. This leads to inflated prices, which leads to threads like this one. (Long version:
The OP & his supporters are underestimating the power of the media. The timing from when Valk recommends a tactic to use on the exchange (or an obscure but OP item) and when the price of something moves is telling.
Tactical Team sucked, once upon a time. I got it buffed. Don't think for a minute that Cryptic ignores forum feedback.
What about breaking the items down to components as a crafting function?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Could you elaborate? Why do you think we need EC sinks? Do you feel you personally have too much EC and gain it at what you consider too fast of a rate? Is the price of goods on the Exchange higher than what you think they should be? Do you feel that other players have too much EC?
I am not trying to troll you here, I just think that a little more information would be useful.
Edit...meh hot thread got away frome me
Yeah, as discussed before it wont work unless you throttle EC input, because EC generation is easy. If you are looking to control inflation, good luck with that. The exchange isn't a sink, for those who think it is. A sink would pemanently remove the currency from the game ( whatever is spent), and the exchange only transfers the currency from one player to another. The currency is still in the in game economy.
I can try.
Inflation and I just don't really feel EC has much of a use.
nope.avi
Yes
Yes
My biggest dream with a new EC sink is to give EC worth again. Nothing that does not cost EC should have an EC cost slap to it.
Wait what? I'm guessing you could be talking selling lockbox loot to NPCs or gold sellers.
Also Dilthium is its own whole bag of stuff to deal with.
The majority of pricing in game follows supply/demand rules and that means certain items, especially from lockboxes, are extremely expensive because they are extremely rare and highly sought after, while other equally rare items are much less expensive because they are not wanted.
REally?? dude, just selling 50 contraband in the exchange gives you already more than 2 million... i think the problem is most of the times that you dont have any idea how to get ec. It has nothing to do with being rich or not.
You might have a point. Well my thought out changes is mostly targeting the demand for EC. I want to see more places where players would want (not have) to spend EC.
The GPL store filled with old FE rewards, a way to get consoles with having to deal with mobs/the exchange/crafting, a way to reroll mods on a piece of gear, and more places where players can remove EC from the game and get well rewarded for it would be nice.
The largest chunks of EC is moved around using the Exchange or trading between players. If you don't think having this "old money" moving around while players can just about do anything to make more does not create inflation then what does?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I don't think those particular ideas are bad, but the issue with inflation is that it first must be measured. Then it has to be proven to be a problem at the rate measured. Contrary to popular belief, inflation is not usually even a bad thing.
Inflation means the market can stay liquid. Hyperinflation is bad, but there is not even a shred of evidence pointing to that.
At least in my experience, I think the rate of EC generation is actually quite poor. There are a ton of sinks out there as it is and there are not really enough ways to replace those losses at the rate I can go through them. Because of that I virtually never buy anything off the market. I can't afford to.
What I do earn from sales I try to save and am very unwilling to spend it on anything given my general, negative rate of EC generation. Reproduce that on a macro scale and you have a deflationary economy, which means most people would not buy things because they have to be stingy with their EC.
I used to be able to buy things on the market, before a lot of the more recent changes, but I've definitely felt the hit to my pockets in game. I really don't want more sinks because in a general, long term sense means I, and everyone else, will likely start to have trouble selling things on the market.
Good point about inflation being measured (not sure about that part of it being good). The only thing I have to point toward the rise in prices is key sales on the exchange but I'm not willing to say that is 100% proof of anything at the moment.
I'm in the same boat that you are in. Unless I rack up contraband gathering doff missions, farm gear in the PVP battlezones, and run a farming mission from the foundry all at once I'm not really pulling in a ton of EC.
This is kind of where we start to disagree. My stance on this is a market where EC has worth creates something else. Lower prices as sellers have to really try to get people to part with their money. Someone earlier in the thread posted a video where someone was telling players to buy low and sell high. Pretty much just try to flip stuff. This becomes the normal and prices start to rise. I think we are already there but it might become even more of a deal, we will have a lot of "old money" sitting on high controlling pricing. If a new player wants to get geared they are most likely going to have start trying to flip items or most likely grind EC for the exchange.
My goal is not to punish the everyman, it is to give his money more spending power.
LOL, getting rich by selling contraband? Me is getting richer buying contraband.