One of the major themes of ds9 was that cardassians were portrayed as the "other." In 2015 we see it as blatant racism, to think of,people that way, but this was decades ago so it wasn't viewed critically.
Bajorans look the same as humans and cardassians don't, so bajoran stories and voices were privileged above cardassian ones. It's how you get self serving bajoran tales about the "occupation" being given high privilege, and facts told by cardassians just ignored.
It would be nice if the sto devs rectified this wrong by putting cardassians in their rightful place as the most superior species in trek.
Anyway, it would be nice to move away from these fantasy MMO copy/paste "herald" things back to star trek.
Not really. There are a lot of times where we see people like Natima Lang, Tekeny Ghemor, or Aamin Marritza, who are portrayed as real people, not as slaves, not as oppressors, but as people with a conscience in a state without a conscience. Even people like Kira, who came to hate Cardassians, came to be able to look past their preconceptions. And there was that episode with the Cardassian child raised on Bajor who hated Cardassians because he was conditioned to. I think that DS9 was pretty good with portraying the Cardassian government as the villains, rather than the species as a whole.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
But let's look at that first bit a little more closely, shall we?
They are not the Iconians themselves, but they are native to Iconia and probably share a common ancestor with the Iconians
This doesn't contradict in any way the possibility that they were one thousands and thousands years ago.
If we take your analogy: humans and cats evolution diverged millions of years ago - it is estimated that we had a common ancestor with cats some 90 mln years ago, while the most ancient hominids for now are considered to be "only" about 6 mln years old.
If the assumption about Iconians and Heralds being some time ago one species is true, their evolutionary divergence would be much-much more recent. Even much more recent than modern humans and anthropoid apes divergence on the relative scale - with the adjustment for Iconians and Heralds being considerably more ancient than humanity.
As of now Heralds are not Iconians - we don't the blog entry for that, you can see with your own eyes. But as for their origin, it is a completely different matter.
Anyway it doesn't actually matter if they were one species or not - in any case they're clearly singled out by Iconians and are special in the society they are building, not some mere servitors like Elachi or Solanae.
Not really. There are a lot of times where we see people like Natima Lang, Tekeny Ghemor, or Aamin Marritza, who are portrayed as real people, not as slaves, not as oppressors, but as people with a conscience in a state without a conscience. Even people like Kira, who came to hate Cardassians, came to be able to look past their preconceptions. And there was that episode with the Cardassian child raised on Bajor who hated Cardassians because he was conditioned to. I think that DS9 was pretty good with portraying the Cardassian government as the villains, rather than the species as a whole.
VERY well said. I think the Cardassians were incredibly well rounded--more so than Trek humanity, to be honest. And in your remarks, you explain exactly why.
It is not necessary to deny or minimize the wrongs the Cardassians committed (or get caught up in some sort of role play taken too far), in order to be a fan of how well written they were. It is possible to recognize the moral rectitude of those Cardassians who stood up against that evil regime...and I could list MANY examples of such Cardassians.
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VERY well said. I think the Cardassians were incredibly well rounded--more so than Trek humanity, to be honest. And in your remarks, you explain exactly why.
It is not necessary to deny or minimize the wrongs the Cardassians committed (or get caught up in some sort of role play taken too far), in order to be a fan of how well written they were. It is possible to recognize the moral rectitude of those Cardassians who stood up against that evil regime...and I could list MANY examples of such Cardassians.
If this issue applied to a ST race, it would be most likely the Klingons, especially in the TOS movies. I haven't watched all of TOS yet, but in the movies and later shows, I noticed the "warrior" thing made the Klingons as a species a little one-dimensional. That's something that Enterprise attempted to correct (episode: Judgement), and that's the reason I enjoy Worf as a character, because he is sort of a one-of-a-kind among his own race, and his perspective on existence seems more nuanced than the average Klingon's.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
VERY well said. I think the Cardassians were incredibly well rounded--more so than Trek humanity, to be honest. And in your remarks, you explain exactly why.
It is not necessary to deny or minimize the wrongs the Cardassians committed (or get caught up in some sort of role play taken too far), in order to be a fan of how well written they were. It is possible to recognize the moral rectitude of those Cardassians who stood up against that evil regime...and I could list MANY examples of such Cardassians.
If this issue applied to a ST race, it would be most likely the Klingons, especially in the TOS movies. I haven't watched all of TOS yet, but in the movies and later shows, I noticed the "warrior" thing made the Klingons as a species a little one-dimensional. That's something that Enterprise attempted to correct (episode: Judgement), and that's the reason I enjoy Worf as a character, because he is sort of a one-of-a-kind among his own race, and his perspective on existence seems more nuanced than the average Klingon's.
I would say even Worf was very one-dimensional in a lot of ways. He was an uber-Klingon stereotype, though with more restraint than what we were later shown was the "typical" Klingon. (And even that wasn't much.) I mean, had he been a fully realized character, we should have seen even some slight evidence or acknowledgment of the human part of his upbringing. Even Spock got more of that.
(In fact, I even have to say JJ Abrams paid more attention to developing the character of both Spocks, and IMO gets great credit for bringing Prime Spock full circle in the 2009 movie and showing his final state as truly half-human, half-Vulcan.)
Yet we never see even the slightest acknowledgment that some part of Worf--even begrudgingly--owes something to Belarus, where the Rozhenkos are from. We never saw him speak a word of Belorussian or even Russian, and he should know something of those languages and those cultures.
Heh, oddly enough I think Nu-Trek Klingons may actually be more nuanced than TNG Klingons(except Worf).
Yeah, the deleted scene in Trek 2009 shows them doing something other than growling.
IMO Trek would've done much better if John M. Ford's work on the Klingons had become canon. Now those were actually intelligent warriors. As it was, that mantle of the intelligent, cunning adversary ended up passing in TNG to the Cardassians.
This is also why, even though I consider STO's Klingons utterly contemptible morons, I actually do not hold Cryptic entirely responsible for it. Because to be quite frank, the source material is so poor that I can't really blame them that much for thinking that's what the fans want.
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I often joke that it's canon that Klingons are space barbarians who stole most of their tech from more advanced races.
Which would not surprise me in the slightest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I'm starting to believe that the Other are the Sphere Builders.
Like the Iconians, they were all female. They were never actually seen travelling through time, in fact, they existed in a special extra-dimensional space- much like that the Solanne tried to create in Delta Flight. The plot we're seeing certainly is starting to concern me about the beginnings of a Temporal Cold War.
Could the Sphere Builders be a distant evolutionary offshoot of the Iconians? Could they be a species created by the Preservers as a counterpart to the Iconians?
Dunno... but I feel like we need some payoff soon on this front.
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Not really. There are a lot of times where we see people like Natima Lang, Tekeny Ghemor, or Aamin Marritza, who are portrayed as real people, not as slaves, not as oppressors, but as people with a conscience in a state without a conscience. Even people like Kira, who came to hate Cardassians, came to be able to look past their preconceptions. And there was that episode with the Cardassian child raised on Bajor who hated Cardassians because he was conditioned to. I think that DS9 was pretty good with portraying the Cardassian government as the villains, rather than the species as a whole.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
If we take your analogy: humans and cats evolution diverged millions of years ago - it is estimated that we had a common ancestor with cats some 90 mln years ago, while the most ancient hominids for now are considered to be "only" about 6 mln years old.
If the assumption about Iconians and Heralds being some time ago one species is true, their evolutionary divergence would be much-much more recent. Even much more recent than modern humans and anthropoid apes divergence on the relative scale - with the adjustment for Iconians and Heralds being considerably more ancient than humanity.
As of now Heralds are not Iconians - we don't the blog entry for that, you can see with your own eyes. But as for their origin, it is a completely different matter.
Anyway it doesn't actually matter if they were one species or not - in any case they're clearly singled out by Iconians and are special in the society they are building, not some mere servitors like Elachi or Solanae.
VERY well said. I think the Cardassians were incredibly well rounded--more so than Trek humanity, to be honest. And in your remarks, you explain exactly why.
It is not necessary to deny or minimize the wrongs the Cardassians committed (or get caught up in some sort of role play taken too far), in order to be a fan of how well written they were. It is possible to recognize the moral rectitude of those Cardassians who stood up against that evil regime...and I could list MANY examples of such Cardassians.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
If this issue applied to a ST race, it would be most likely the Klingons, especially in the TOS movies. I haven't watched all of TOS yet, but in the movies and later shows, I noticed the "warrior" thing made the Klingons as a species a little one-dimensional. That's something that Enterprise attempted to correct (episode: Judgement), and that's the reason I enjoy Worf as a character, because he is sort of a one-of-a-kind among his own race, and his perspective on existence seems more nuanced than the average Klingon's.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
My character Tsin'xing
AR (alternate reality) Klingons? We haven't seen much of them yet, is that who you're referring to?
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I would say even Worf was very one-dimensional in a lot of ways. He was an uber-Klingon stereotype, though with more restraint than what we were later shown was the "typical" Klingon. (And even that wasn't much.) I mean, had he been a fully realized character, we should have seen even some slight evidence or acknowledgment of the human part of his upbringing. Even Spock got more of that.
(In fact, I even have to say JJ Abrams paid more attention to developing the character of both Spocks, and IMO gets great credit for bringing Prime Spock full circle in the 2009 movie and showing his final state as truly half-human, half-Vulcan.)
Yet we never see even the slightest acknowledgment that some part of Worf--even begrudgingly--owes something to Belarus, where the Rozhenkos are from. We never saw him speak a word of Belorussian or even Russian, and he should know something of those languages and those cultures.
Yeah, the deleted scene in Trek 2009 shows them doing something other than growling.
IMO Trek would've done much better if John M. Ford's work on the Klingons had become canon. Now those were actually intelligent warriors. As it was, that mantle of the intelligent, cunning adversary ended up passing in TNG to the Cardassians.
This is also why, even though I consider STO's Klingons utterly contemptible morons, I actually do not hold Cryptic entirely responsible for it. Because to be quite frank, the source material is so poor that I can't really blame them that much for thinking that's what the fans want.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
My character Tsin'xing
....It's Rick
Which would not surprise me in the slightest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Like the Iconians, they were all female. They were never actually seen travelling through time, in fact, they existed in a special extra-dimensional space- much like that the Solanne tried to create in Delta Flight. The plot we're seeing certainly is starting to concern me about the beginnings of a Temporal Cold War.
Could the Sphere Builders be a distant evolutionary offshoot of the Iconians? Could they be a species created by the Preservers as a counterpart to the Iconians?
Dunno... but I feel like we need some payoff soon on this front.