The Borg are not 600k years old as someone claimed in this forum the last time there was a discussion of "The Other," but appear to be considerably younger:
Intelligence provided by Erika Hernandez during in the Borg Invasion of 2381 suggest the Borg have a definite point of origin from a crashed and temporally-displaced Caeliar cityship, Mantilis, in 4527 BCE. However there has also been evidence of Borg activity much earlier, such as the assimilation of the Hirogen homeworld around 110,000 BCE, and possible Borg-Preserver conflicts dating back to billions of years ago. (ST - Destiny novel: Lost Souls; TOS novel: Probe; ST short story: "The Hunted"; TNG novel: Vendetta)
So yeah, they are billions of years old, because we have never seen the Borg engage in time travel at all, right? Oh, wait, yes we have. So I'm going with 4527 BCE, which would make the Borg a little more than 6900 years old. When you take into account the fact that they had not yet taken over the entire galaxy by the time of VOY, let alone ENT, the supposed 600k age becomes rather unlikely, to say the least.
You are wrong right from the beginning.
"Star Trek" is fully owned by "CBS".
For the movies/films, they sub-licensed it to "Paramount".
Basic rule of CBS:
1. All live-action productions produced by CBS (TV series) and Paramount (movies/films) are hard-canon
2. All other materials are soft-canon
3. All soft-canon materials are only allowed to use hard-canon for their branches. Meaning, Pocket Books and Cryptic are not allowed to use materials from another soft-canon -- unless otherwise approved by CBS (in rare cases).
So, quoting Star Trek: Relaunch: Destiny to prove a point re: Borg is not applicable in STO because the Pocket Books "Relaunch" era is incompatible with Cryptic's "STO" branch.
I know it is confusing, I was once until the authors of Pocket Books cleared that up and explained how hard-canon and soft-canon works in the eyes and legal of CBS (and to an extent Paramount).
Haven't you noticed? In the Relaunch branch, the Borg are gone. "Saved." In the STO branch, the Borg is still here with us.
Here's another minor but is a very important difference.
Litverse/Relaunch branch: There is a Temporal Defense Grid that was developed and deployed sometime in the 25th Century (that's 24xx) which prevents unauthorized temporal incursions from 24xx onwards.
In STO, the Temporal Defense Grid will never be created because the conditions and reasons that led to its development was never present in STO, at least at the current state STO branch is in.
For one, the person that spearheaded the construction of the TDG was Department of Temporal Investigation Agent Lucsly, and he got the idea because Federation Temporal Agent Jena Noi told him why no one's bothering to do time incursions in the 23rd and 24th centuries because no one in the future wants to risk changing the timeline and wipe the Federation forever.
Why? Because in every timeline branch, the Borg assimilated the whole Milky Way Galaxy. It was the Federation that helped stop the Borg. It was only after the Borg was defeated that a new front to the Temporal (Cold) War was felt in the galaxy again.
Since these events never happened in STO. FTA Agent Noi never met DTI Agent Lucsly and never had a conversation about the TDG, it will never exist in STO, not while the Borg is around, because no one from the future wants to travel back in the 23rd, 24th, 25th centuries while the Borg is alive and kicking. The galaxy needs the Federation to end the Borg threat once and for all.
STO is at 25th century already (24xx), the Borg is still alive and making serious headway into Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Yet in the Relaunch/Litverse branch, Lucsly and his other secret counterparts started work on the TDG sometime late the 24th century.
Lots of blather about hard canon and soft canon, and some wholly irrelevant comments about time travel
What is the point you're trying to make? That one comment from Guinan is holy writ? In the context of a hard canon which is remarkably inconsistent throughout? Had you read beyond the first sentence, you would have noticed that Destiny was only one of several sources referenced.
My point was that there have been several dates given, both in hard canon and soft canon, and the claim that the Borg are billions of years old is patently ridiculous for several reasons, not least of which being that we have seen the Borg use time travel in hard canon.
Also, I'm very well aware of the distinctions between hard and soft canon. The lecture was not necessary, nor the rabbit chase about temporal stuff.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?
Yes. What makes her an expert on the Borg? All they did was eat her civilization. The Vaadwaur were talking about things they had actually witnessed.
Did you really forget how long El-Aurians live? She could have actually seen it herself. She was visiting Earth during the 19th Century, after all.
I doubt they live for "thousands of centuries". Or that she had much experience with the Delta Quadrant, for that matter...the El-Aurian homeworld, wherever it was, must have been fairly close to Federation space for their refugees to ended up there. (Or for Guinan to be vacationing on Earth, in any time period.)
No, but they do appear to live for centuries, period. We don't know how many exactly, but the fact that Guinan can look exactly the same in the 1800s and the 2300s hints that it's a lot. Which would mean any details concerning the Borg's origins could have spanned just a few generations for El-Aurians.
And who says that El-Auria would have to be close to Federation space just because they ended up there? Again, they're long lived... they can travel through space at the slowest possible warp speed and still barely lose a fraction of their lives. Furthermore, isn't the obvious direction to get away from something to head in the opposite direction it's coming from?
I'd gathered that either the Iconians were asexual, or that both genders were in fact represented, based on what we've heard. To me, T'Ket came off as male, whereas M'Tara comes off fairly clearly as female.
The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.
So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?
The bad part is, so many of the story writers, kept contradicting what was put in stone before!
Than, as to not look like an utter and complete idiot, conjure up some TRIBBLE as to side step it in some fashion, which again pretty much contradicts something else also.
In regards to the Borg: We only have to informations in canon. And to extrapolate the Borg's origin or age from Seven's sentence you need to go around quite a few corners. Guinan's information was used to establish the Borg in TNG and by all means and purposes Guinan was established to be *the* reliable source of information, only short in knowledge to maybe Q. So from a storytelling point of view this information is "absolute". The retcons we have in Voyager are to be taken with a grain of salt, not only because I don't like them but because they originate from a show about which the producer, Brannon Braga, said is not supposed to have continiuity because that would confuse parts of the audience who miss episodes or prior knowledge (this is why Seven, Tuvok and other aliens have to establish their character every time they appear in an episode. Every single time.) - so Voyager is, despite being canon, a very unreliable source.
And about the canon discussion: there is no such thing as "soft-canon". That's just a term made up to sound more important. There is canon which is CBS/Paramount live action material (including TAS since the DVD rerelease). And everything else is irrelevant outside of itself and cannot used to reason canon. It can be discussed as interesting point of view, no doubt, but has literally no meaning when discussing canon.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Given the dialogue in the latest feature episode I get the impression that "The Other" is an Iconian that has become separated, either by choice or misadventure, from the those we've encountered so far.
The way the T'Ket and Co refer to some form of fractured unity seems to suggests that "The Other" was an integral part of pre-uprising Iconian society.
Also to consider is the name given so far. "The Other" is very specifically singular, so unless the Iconians have a difficulty dealing with numbers we're looking for an individual. So far a lot of species have been suggested in this thread, the Borg, El Aurians, etc. Most of which are well below the power scale of the Iconians. We're looking for an entity that the Iconians would see as an equal not a species or a horde of deranged cyber-zombies.
With regard to the side issue of "soft canon" Memory Alpha generally refers to anything outside of the Film/TV material (as covered by Memory Beta) as "apocrypha". This seems a fitting term as apocrypha is any material that is of doubtful authenticity, or not within a particular the canon.
Given the dialogue in the latest feature episode I get the impression that "The Other" is an Iconian that has become separated, either by choice or misadventure, from the those we've encountered so far.
The way the T'Ket and Co refer to some form of fractured unity seems to suggests that "The Other" was an integral part of pre-uprising Iconian society.
Also to consider is the name given so far. "The Other" is very specifically singular, so unless the Iconians have a difficulty dealing with numbers we're looking for an individual. So far a lot of species have been suggested in this thread, the Borg, El Aurians, etc. Most of which are well below the power scale of the Iconians. We're looking for an entity that the Iconians would see as an equal not a species or a horde of deranged cyber-zombies.
With regard to the side issue of "soft canon" Memory Alpha generally refers to anything outside of the Film/TV material (as covered by Memory Beta) as "apocrypha". This seems a fitting term as apocrypha is any material that is of doubtful authenticity, or not within a particular the canon.
I prefer the term "deuterocanonical" myself. Either way, "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical," some accept some of it and some don't accept any of it (I doubt anyone is so illogical as to accept all of it, because the amount of contradiction would be enough to cause cognitive dissonance), and Cryptic falls solidly into the former camp, seeing as they have made use of deuterocanonical/apocryphal material.
I prefer the term "deuterocanonical" myself. Either way, "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical," some accept some of it and some don't accept any of it (I doubt anyone is so illogical as to accept all of it, because the amount of contradiction would be enough to cause cognitive dissonance), and Cryptic falls solidly into the former camp, seeing as they have made use of deuterocanonical/apocryphal material.
"Deuterocanonical" would only work if the material that was not part of the original canon was accepted into the official canon. The novels haven't been accepted so they do not qualify. Like STO, they may be licensed works but they aren't canon.
I prefer the term "deuterocanonical" myself. Either way, "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical," some accept some of it and some don't accept any of it (I doubt anyone is so illogical as to accept all of it, because the amount of contradiction would be enough to cause cognitive dissonance), and Cryptic falls solidly into the former camp, seeing as they have made use of deuterocanonical/apocryphal material.
"Deuterocanonical" would only work if the material that was not part of the original canon was accepted into the official canon. The novels haven't been accepted so they do not qualify. Like STO, they may be licensed works but they aren't canon.
Except that "deuterocanonical" doesn't mean that. It means "secondarily canonical," and has been used since the 16th century for texts which were originally part of the canon of Christian scripture, as established by the Synod of Hippo in 393, and confirmed by the Synod of Carthage in 397. They are called "deuterocanonical" because some accept them as part of the canon and some don't. This is why I suggest the term; some Trekkers accept some of the material from some of the works which are sometimes called "soft canon," and others don't.
With regard to the side issue of "soft canon" Memory Alpha generally refers to anything outside of the Film/TV material (as covered by Memory Beta) as "apocrypha". This seems a fitting term as apocrypha is any material that is of doubtful authenticity, or not within a particular the canon.
This is a good point. "Apocryphal" works in the instances of the tech manuals in particular. The TNG, DS9 and VOY season one tech manuals are refurbished and published versions of the writer's guides to Star Trek, so what information we find in these actually predates the shows and as such, as long as on-screen doesn't actively contradict them, is as official as it gets outside of the actual live-action (and TAS). In my opinion at least that makes sense.
Regarding "the Other", somehow I think Crytic cannot afford an even bigger entity or else they'll pull a "Doctor Who" where every ulötimate evil is 'relieved' by another, even more ultimate evil on a regular basis. "Ultimate evils" quickly loose any sense of threat that way, making it rather hilarious
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Lots of blather about hard canon and soft canon, and some wholly irrelevant comments about time travel
I love to quote someone and change what they actually said.
That's exactly the point, you are using material that is not canon. We're in STO's timeline branch not Litverse/Relaunch branch.
And secondly, I never said anything about Guinan's words as the be-all-end-all. Once again, what's in canon is canon, and as was explained by the writers of the Litverse branch, CBS made sure that all "licensed materials" (since people seem to miss the point if "soft-canon" is used), are only to base their branch on canon materials. They cannot use another licensed materials' work. Yes, they can mention subtlely, for example, having encountered some 'rumour' about a branch where the Borg is making headway in the Alpha/Beta quadrant, but that's about it. Even STO was careful in using materials from Litverse, and no doubt with approval from CBS.
So let's just stick with canon and STO's branch. The information we have about the borg can only come from canon and STO's branch. Are they "the other" then? I highly doubt. Could they have lived far longer as some community members suggested? Sure.
Isn't it obvious? The "Other" is Tovan Khev! At the end of this storyline, He reaches his full awareness, and leaves your ship to take over his caretakership (?) of the galaxy! no loose ends, everything tied up in a nice little bow, and 75% of the community is happy to be rid of him. For fed and Klingon toons, you get to meet him for the first, and last time!
Isn't it obvious? The "Other" is Tovan Khev! At the end of this storyline, He reaches his full awareness, and leaves your ship to take over his caretakership (?) of the galaxy! no loose ends, everything tied up in a nice little bow, and 75% of the community is happy to be rid of him. For fed and Klingon toons, you get to meet him for the first, and last time!
I can dream...
Speaking of caretakers, maybe the Iconians could be referring to her, who knows! They also use the term "The whole must be as one", what do you suppose this means? Could it mean the whole is the combined species friendly to the Iconians or, maybe the combined might of the Iconians power across the galaxy/universe? Maybe the other is something that has to become the whole! Hard to say for now.
Lots of blather about hard canon and soft canon, and some wholly irrelevant comments about time travel
I love to quote someone and change what they actually said.
That's exactly the point, you are using material that is not canon. We're in STO's timeline branch not Litverse/Relaunch branch.
And secondly, I never said anything about Guinan's words as the be-all-end-all. Once again, what's in canon is canon, and as was explained by the writers of the Litverse branch, CBS made sure that all "licensed materials" (since people seem to miss the point if "soft-canon" is used), are only to base their branch on canon materials. They cannot use another licensed materials' work. Yes, they can mention subtlely, for example, having encountered some 'rumour' about a branch where the Borg is making headway in the Alpha/Beta quadrant, but that's about it. Even STO was careful in using materials from Litverse, and no doubt with approval from CBS.
So let's just stick with canon and STO's branch. The information we have about the borg can only come from canon and STO's branch. Are they "the other" then? I highly doubt. Could they have lived far longer as some community members suggested? Sure.
It's called "summarizing," not "changing." And STO uses material which is not hard canon, too. The point is that we have multiple supposed ages for the Borg, even if we restrict ourselves to hard canon, and that hard canon has shown the Borg using time travel. Ockham's razor being applied to this suggests that the most likely explanation for the Borg having been in all these various times, yet still having not conquered even the Delta Quadrant by the time of ENT, is the simple one: they have been in the past, because they time-travelled back to the past, but assuming that they were "native" to that time is ... well, an assumption, which has only one line in all of hard canon to support it, that being Guinan's assertion, which, superficially, at least, appears to be inconsistent with other statements from hard canon, such as Seven of Nine talking about Borg history. Now, I'm more inclined to take the word of someone who was Borg over someone who was attacked by Borg, when the subject in question is the Borg ...
Disagree if you like, but please take the time to read what I've said beyond the first sentence, before you attempt to "correct" me or lecture me about things which aren't even germane to what I've said. Yeah, I referenced several (not just one) soft canon sources, in a quote, not from one of those sources, but from Memory Beta, which was discussing Borg history as it has been presented in hard canon and in soft canon, and you're certainly free to reject anything from soft canon on the grounds that it's not hard canon, but that's your view, and not that of everyone else (nor that of Cryptic, as evidenced by their copious use of material from the works of Diane Duane in the Romulan storyline). So what happens if Cryptic does go with soft canon sources for the age of the Borg? Will you ignore that because it didn't come from hard canon? Apparently you won't, but rejecting the possibility before the fact, with no inside knowledge, is essentially denying it can happen because it doesn't line up with your preference. We all do this, of course, but it's a good idea to keep it to a minimum and restricted to things of which the likelihood is slim based on other things already in-game, lest we later have to eat our words.
That's possible. The Prophets probably saw the need to save the Iconians. They might be useful in some future war. The Prophets are like that.
Except, as was already pointed out, it was the Prophets who first spoke of "The Other," when the player character goes to commune with the Orb in the temple in Hathon. Now, the Prophets, being non-linear beings, do speak rather strangely at times, but I have a hard time seeing them refer to themselves as "other" in this context.
I prefer the term "deuterocanonical" myself. Either way, "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical," some accept some of it and some don't accept any of it (I doubt anyone is so illogical as to accept all of it, because the amount of contradiction would be enough to cause cognitive dissonance), and Cryptic falls solidly into the former camp, seeing as they have made use of deuterocanonical/apocryphal material.
"Deuterocanonical" would only work if the material that was not part of the original canon was accepted into the official canon. The novels haven't been accepted so they do not qualify. Like STO, they may be licensed works but they aren't canon.
Ideas from the novels have been used in the shows, often simultaneously in a way that makes the novels that those ideas come from impossible to adapt.
Rather than focusing on canon or the Trek's universe as a living thing, I think it's better to view it as a strategy game being maneuvered by writers and execs. The licensed media creators are people who come in and suggest maneuvers.
The licensed media folks aren't players in the main game so their suggested moves are not binding to the main game. (It may matter a lot more to side games.) However, the fact that they're making the move suggestions isn't irrelevant either.
Think of them as pitches. Parts of pitches might get used.
Canon is what you make of it, things can be retconned with varying degrees of explanations with future material at any time. It's an expanded multiverse.
With regards to the Other...the Catalyst. I mean let's face it the Iconians are suspiciously similar to the Reapers.
Its the descendants of George and Gracie. The whales got all fed up with the iconians being all talkative all the time and left, stayed silent so long out of spite the humans killed them off, and Kirk had ST4 happen to set up the insanity that will be the alliance arming a full tactical assault team of whales, decked out in full body armor, given explicit orders to not engage in single combat with the iconians with thousands of years old swords made by their long dead genetic clone. I can't wait for the voice overs for that episode. Tuvok: This is most illogical. Whale task force Omega Commando: Squeel....Pop pop pop. Your Captain: Silent Face Palm.
I haven't read the full thread so please excuse if I'm repeating anyone's comment!
I think "The Other" is us, the player...The Alliance work with the Krenim to go back in time to destroy the Iconians (which is why they went for the Krenim first, by fixing the future they could fix the past), and at some point, we decide to break with the Alliance and find a way to help them survive. They don't realise where they are in the time loop, but when they do, we will all retire in a sort of reluctant peace.
Side note: I doubt "The Other" is someone we haven't yet been introduced to, this far into the arc. From purely a storytelling perspective, it will be most dramatic if it's someone we already know.
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The more I revisit this thread and think about the information released so far, the more I am convinced that "The Other" is not someone we have already encountered in this game or any form of Star Trek material (Official Canon or Apocrypha).
I keep looking at the Iconians and seeing a pattern that says, "we've only seen female Iconians". All the ones in narratives have been described using feminine terminology and they all have the same basic figure which looks feminine.
If, as presented in game, the Iconians are like all other "Preserver seeded" bipedal life forms then it is not an unreasonable step to suspect they match the same female/male pattern presented by all the others seen so far.
With little idea of pre-bombardment Iconian society it is hard to determine exactly how the population was structured.
It seems to me that, base on what we have seen so far, there are a couple of possibilities:
1. that "The Other" is, or was, a male Iconian (or equivalent) and Iconian society had a form similar to what we see in a Lion's Pride.
2. That "The Other" was a form of "Hive Queen" who acted as a unifying individual. There is a romanic heroic narrative to such an individual performing an act of self sacrifice to save her people. With hive species on Earth generally having a tiny population of males compared to females, this would go some way to explain the apparent absence of male Iconians so far. What we may be looking at is a handful of Iconian "princesses" and their retainers trying to re-establish their mother's lost empire.
Beyond that, it is possible that "The Other" is another entity from amongst the first spacefaring species to rise from the seeding of the Preservers. Like the Iconians, one of the "First Ones" if you will. However such an entity would need to be powerful enough not to be threatened by the Iconians who seem to be rather domineering.
Call me crazy, but i believe "The Other" is referring the "Q" race.
There seem to be a logical behaviour in this, Q are capable of living in their own subspace, they possess infinite amount of "technology" (magic, lol) They can travel anywhere without using time, without need of ships. They can time-travel, they are "indefinite". Seems they are more powerful then the Iconians. The Q is even capable of finding the FED's who are disguised in a time ship for example.
And the Q love to see some action. I am sure they are the foundation of all, saving the Iconians just to see what they can do with other species. Like just for fun. Because they are bored.
Its the descendants of George and Gracie. The whales got all fed up with the iconians being all talkative all the time and left, stayed silent so long out of spite the humans killed them off, and Kirk had ST4 happen to set up the insanity that will be the alliance arming a full tactical assault team of whales, decked out in full body armor, given explicit orders to not engage in single combat with the iconians with thousands of years old swords made by their long dead genetic clone. I can't wait for the voice overs for that episode. Tuvok: This is most illogical. Whale task force Omega Commando: Squeel....Pop pop pop. Your Captain: Silent Face Palm.
Lol ok while I did find this humorous, there is a note to point out. We still don't know who sent that probe in ST4. An unknown powerful race. ..just saying.
The Other is the great enemy of the Lord of Light.
Light our fire and protect us from the dark, blah, blah, light our way and keep us toasty warm, the night is full of terrors, save us from the scary thing, and blah blah blah some more.
Comments
You are wrong right from the beginning.
"Star Trek" is fully owned by "CBS".
For the movies/films, they sub-licensed it to "Paramount".
Basic rule of CBS:
1. All live-action productions produced by CBS (TV series) and Paramount (movies/films) are hard-canon
2. All other materials are soft-canon
3. All soft-canon materials are only allowed to use hard-canon for their branches. Meaning, Pocket Books and Cryptic are not allowed to use materials from another soft-canon -- unless otherwise approved by CBS (in rare cases).
So, quoting Star Trek: Relaunch: Destiny to prove a point re: Borg is not applicable in STO because the Pocket Books "Relaunch" era is incompatible with Cryptic's "STO" branch.
I know it is confusing, I was once until the authors of Pocket Books cleared that up and explained how hard-canon and soft-canon works in the eyes and legal of CBS (and to an extent Paramount).
Haven't you noticed? In the Relaunch branch, the Borg are gone. "Saved." In the STO branch, the Borg is still here with us.
Here's another minor but is a very important difference.
Litverse/Relaunch branch: There is a Temporal Defense Grid that was developed and deployed sometime in the 25th Century (that's 24xx) which prevents unauthorized temporal incursions from 24xx onwards.
In STO, the Temporal Defense Grid will never be created because the conditions and reasons that led to its development was never present in STO, at least at the current state STO branch is in.
For one, the person that spearheaded the construction of the TDG was Department of Temporal Investigation Agent Lucsly, and he got the idea because Federation Temporal Agent Jena Noi told him why no one's bothering to do time incursions in the 23rd and 24th centuries because no one in the future wants to risk changing the timeline and wipe the Federation forever.
Why? Because in every timeline branch, the Borg assimilated the whole Milky Way Galaxy. It was the Federation that helped stop the Borg. It was only after the Borg was defeated that a new front to the Temporal (Cold) War was felt in the galaxy again.
Since these events never happened in STO. FTA Agent Noi never met DTI Agent Lucsly and never had a conversation about the TDG, it will never exist in STO, not while the Borg is around, because no one from the future wants to travel back in the 23rd, 24th, 25th centuries while the Borg is alive and kicking. The galaxy needs the Federation to end the Borg threat once and for all.
STO is at 25th century already (24xx), the Borg is still alive and making serious headway into Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Yet in the Relaunch/Litverse branch, Lucsly and his other secret counterparts started work on the TDG sometime late the 24th century.
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What is the point you're trying to make? That one comment from Guinan is holy writ? In the context of a hard canon which is remarkably inconsistent throughout? Had you read beyond the first sentence, you would have noticed that Destiny was only one of several sources referenced.
My point was that there have been several dates given, both in hard canon and soft canon, and the claim that the Borg are billions of years old is patently ridiculous for several reasons, not least of which being that we have seen the Borg use time travel in hard canon.
Also, I'm very well aware of the distinctions between hard and soft canon. The lecture was not necessary, nor the rabbit chase about temporal stuff.
No, but they do appear to live for centuries, period. We don't know how many exactly, but the fact that Guinan can look exactly the same in the 1800s and the 2300s hints that it's a lot. Which would mean any details concerning the Borg's origins could have spanned just a few generations for El-Aurians.
And who says that El-Auria would have to be close to Federation space just because they ended up there? Again, they're long lived... they can travel through space at the slowest possible warp speed and still barely lose a fraction of their lives. Furthermore, isn't the obvious direction to get away from something to head in the opposite direction it's coming from?
Well, even the preservers referred to one of them, as their daughter and, that "she" is angry!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The bad part is, so many of the story writers, kept contradicting what was put in stone before!
Than, as to not look like an utter and complete idiot, conjure up some TRIBBLE as to side step it in some fashion, which again pretty much contradicts something else also.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
And about the canon discussion: there is no such thing as "soft-canon". That's just a term made up to sound more important. There is canon which is CBS/Paramount live action material (including TAS since the DVD rerelease). And everything else is irrelevant outside of itself and cannot used to reason canon. It can be discussed as interesting point of view, no doubt, but has literally no meaning when discussing canon.
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The way the T'Ket and Co refer to some form of fractured unity seems to suggests that "The Other" was an integral part of pre-uprising Iconian society.
Also to consider is the name given so far. "The Other" is very specifically singular, so unless the Iconians have a difficulty dealing with numbers we're looking for an individual. So far a lot of species have been suggested in this thread, the Borg, El Aurians, etc. Most of which are well below the power scale of the Iconians. We're looking for an entity that the Iconians would see as an equal not a species or a horde of deranged cyber-zombies.
With regard to the side issue of "soft canon" Memory Alpha generally refers to anything outside of the Film/TV material (as covered by Memory Beta) as "apocrypha". This seems a fitting term as apocrypha is any material that is of doubtful authenticity, or not within a particular the canon.
I prefer the term "deuterocanonical" myself. Either way, "apocryphal" or "deuterocanonical," some accept some of it and some don't accept any of it (I doubt anyone is so illogical as to accept all of it, because the amount of contradiction would be enough to cause cognitive dissonance), and Cryptic falls solidly into the former camp, seeing as they have made use of deuterocanonical/apocryphal material.
Except that "deuterocanonical" doesn't mean that. It means "secondarily canonical," and has been used since the 16th century for texts which were originally part of the canon of Christian scripture, as established by the Synod of Hippo in 393, and confirmed by the Synod of Carthage in 397. They are called "deuterocanonical" because some accept them as part of the canon and some don't. This is why I suggest the term; some Trekkers accept some of the material from some of the works which are sometimes called "soft canon," and others don't.
This is a good point. "Apocryphal" works in the instances of the tech manuals in particular. The TNG, DS9 and VOY season one tech manuals are refurbished and published versions of the writer's guides to Star Trek, so what information we find in these actually predates the shows and as such, as long as on-screen doesn't actively contradict them, is as official as it gets outside of the actual live-action (and TAS). In my opinion at least that makes sense.
Regarding "the Other", somehow I think Crytic cannot afford an even bigger entity or else they'll pull a "Doctor Who" where every ulötimate evil is 'relieved' by another, even more ultimate evil on a regular basis. "Ultimate evils" quickly loose any sense of threat that way, making it rather hilarious
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That's exactly the point, you are using material that is not canon. We're in STO's timeline branch not Litverse/Relaunch branch.
And secondly, I never said anything about Guinan's words as the be-all-end-all. Once again, what's in canon is canon, and as was explained by the writers of the Litverse branch, CBS made sure that all "licensed materials" (since people seem to miss the point if "soft-canon" is used), are only to base their branch on canon materials. They cannot use another licensed materials' work. Yes, they can mention subtlely, for example, having encountered some 'rumour' about a branch where the Borg is making headway in the Alpha/Beta quadrant, but that's about it. Even STO was careful in using materials from Litverse, and no doubt with approval from CBS.
So let's just stick with canon and STO's branch. The information we have about the borg can only come from canon and STO's branch. Are they "the other" then? I highly doubt. Could they have lived far longer as some community members suggested? Sure.
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That's possible. The Prophets probably saw the need to save the Iconians. They might be useful in some future war. The Prophets are like that.
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Speaking of caretakers, maybe the Iconians could be referring to her, who knows! They also use the term "The whole must be as one", what do you suppose this means? Could it mean the whole is the combined species friendly to the Iconians or, maybe the combined might of the Iconians power across the galaxy/universe? Maybe the other is something that has to become the whole! Hard to say for now.
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It's called "summarizing," not "changing." And STO uses material which is not hard canon, too. The point is that we have multiple supposed ages for the Borg, even if we restrict ourselves to hard canon, and that hard canon has shown the Borg using time travel. Ockham's razor being applied to this suggests that the most likely explanation for the Borg having been in all these various times, yet still having not conquered even the Delta Quadrant by the time of ENT, is the simple one: they have been in the past, because they time-travelled back to the past, but assuming that they were "native" to that time is ... well, an assumption, which has only one line in all of hard canon to support it, that being Guinan's assertion, which, superficially, at least, appears to be inconsistent with other statements from hard canon, such as Seven of Nine talking about Borg history. Now, I'm more inclined to take the word of someone who was Borg over someone who was attacked by Borg, when the subject in question is the Borg ...
Disagree if you like, but please take the time to read what I've said beyond the first sentence, before you attempt to "correct" me or lecture me about things which aren't even germane to what I've said. Yeah, I referenced several (not just one) soft canon sources, in a quote, not from one of those sources, but from Memory Beta, which was discussing Borg history as it has been presented in hard canon and in soft canon, and you're certainly free to reject anything from soft canon on the grounds that it's not hard canon, but that's your view, and not that of everyone else (nor that of Cryptic, as evidenced by their copious use of material from the works of Diane Duane in the Romulan storyline). So what happens if Cryptic does go with soft canon sources for the age of the Borg? Will you ignore that because it didn't come from hard canon? Apparently you won't, but rejecting the possibility before the fact, with no inside knowledge, is essentially denying it can happen because it doesn't line up with your preference. We all do this, of course, but it's a good idea to keep it to a minimum and restricted to things of which the likelihood is slim based on other things already in-game, lest we later have to eat our words.
Except, as was already pointed out, it was the Prophets who first spoke of "The Other," when the player character goes to commune with the Orb in the temple in Hathon. Now, the Prophets, being non-linear beings, do speak rather strangely at times, but I have a hard time seeing them refer to themselves as "other" in this context.
Ideas from the novels have been used in the shows, often simultaneously in a way that makes the novels that those ideas come from impossible to adapt.
Rather than focusing on canon or the Trek's universe as a living thing, I think it's better to view it as a strategy game being maneuvered by writers and execs. The licensed media creators are people who come in and suggest maneuvers.
The licensed media folks aren't players in the main game so their suggested moves are not binding to the main game. (It may matter a lot more to side games.) However, the fact that they're making the move suggestions isn't irrelevant either.
Think of them as pitches. Parts of pitches might get used.
With regards to the Other...the Catalyst. I mean let's face it the Iconians are suspiciously similar to the Reapers.
I think "The Other" is us, the player...The Alliance work with the Krenim to go back in time to destroy the Iconians (which is why they went for the Krenim first, by fixing the future they could fix the past), and at some point, we decide to break with the Alliance and find a way to help them survive. They don't realise where they are in the time loop, but when they do, we will all retire in a sort of reluctant peace.
Side note: I doubt "The Other" is someone we haven't yet been introduced to, this far into the arc. From purely a storytelling perspective, it will be most dramatic if it's someone we already know.
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I keep looking at the Iconians and seeing a pattern that says, "we've only seen female Iconians". All the ones in narratives have been described using feminine terminology and they all have the same basic figure which looks feminine.
If, as presented in game, the Iconians are like all other "Preserver seeded" bipedal life forms then it is not an unreasonable step to suspect they match the same female/male pattern presented by all the others seen so far.
With little idea of pre-bombardment Iconian society it is hard to determine exactly how the population was structured.
It seems to me that, base on what we have seen so far, there are a couple of possibilities:
1. that "The Other" is, or was, a male Iconian (or equivalent) and Iconian society had a form similar to what we see in a Lion's Pride.
2. That "The Other" was a form of "Hive Queen" who acted as a unifying individual. There is a romanic heroic narrative to such an individual performing an act of self sacrifice to save her people. With hive species on Earth generally having a tiny population of males compared to females, this would go some way to explain the apparent absence of male Iconians so far. What we may be looking at is a handful of Iconian "princesses" and their retainers trying to re-establish their mother's lost empire.
Beyond that, it is possible that "The Other" is another entity from amongst the first spacefaring species to rise from the seeding of the Preservers. Like the Iconians, one of the "First Ones" if you will. However such an entity would need to be powerful enough not to be threatened by the Iconians who seem to be rather domineering.
There seem to be a logical behaviour in this, Q are capable of living in their own subspace, they possess infinite amount of "technology" (magic, lol) They can travel anywhere without using time, without need of ships. They can time-travel, they are "indefinite". Seems they are more powerful then the Iconians. The Q is even capable of finding the FED's who are disguised in a time ship for example.
And the Q love to see some action. I am sure they are the foundation of all, saving the Iconians just to see what they can do with other species. Like just for fun. Because they are bored.
Lol, i have corrected you
Lol ok while I did find this humorous, there is a note to point out. We still don't know who sent that probe in ST4. An unknown powerful race. ..just saying.
Light our fire and protect us from the dark, blah, blah, light our way and keep us toasty warm, the night is full of terrors, save us from the scary thing, and blah blah blah some more.