Who is "The Other"?

leviathan99

I guess I mean that the Romulans we have seen DO seem to subscribe to a version of "The good of the many outweigh the good of the few."

But it's more like "The good of the Empire outweighs the good of strangers."

The Vulcan edict is one of self-sacrifice. The Romulan "code" CAN be applied selflessly but is often a justification for "unfortunate" consequences for the other guy.

It's the willingness to die... and sabotage and murder... for "the greater good".

It would be a supreme irony if a belief in the ends justifying the means meant that the destruction of Romulus and deaths of billions of Romulans became a moral and pragmatic necessity.

Romulans can be both hot blooded... and ruthlessly cold. In some ways, I think letting the Hobus explosion happen once an alternative proves to be worse is the perfectly calculating Romulan response -- and then the hot blooded side of Romulan culture might even make a Romulan willing, even eager to ensure that the Empire falls and that their own people die.

"Saving the galaxy required the genocide of my own species? Oh. Okay then. But as a Romulan, I insist on being the one to hold the trigger. A Romulan should be responsible for this, not an outsider."

rattler2

I don't think tying the Dewans to the Devidians works, as the holograms were all the same color pretty much, including the Iconian and the gateway and the pipes. Essentially the holograms were similar to those from Star Wars, showing everything in shades of blue.

Also the Dewans had a rather obvious mouth, while Devidians don't. They just have that hole in their heads for absorbing neural energy.

protogoth

rattler2 wrote: »

I don't think tying the Dewans to the Devidians works, as the holograms were all the same color pretty much, including the Iconian and the gateway and the pipes. Essentially the holograms were similar to those from Star Wars, showing everything in shades of blue.

Also the Dewans had a rather obvious mouth, while Devidians don't. They just have that hole in their heads for absorbing neural energy.

*sigh*

protogoth wrote: »

(This isn't about the obvious texture similarities; the video file found at the Gateway under ch'Mol'Rihan was corrupt, and that may not represent an accurate presentation of the Dewan skin. Instead, look at the shape of the heads.) The Devidians look emaciated, while the Dewans appear to be well-fed. The Devidians seem to be rather hungry, insisting "We must feed!"

commanderkassy

deaftravis05 wrote: »

The Voths are Saurian, the preservers are mammals. I suspect the preservers planted more mammals as there weren't others like them. There aren't many saurians out there so it's entirely possible the Voth evolved separately from the preservers and thus aren't their children. The Voth have quite a dislike of mammals. The Iconians could be why.

They didn't plant anything except genetic material that made life develop towards humanoid forms, mammal, reptilian, or otherwise, all humanoids are their progeny.

pennylong

I think it's probably the player but in a DS9 documentary I was watching the other day they did refer to the Dominion as the Other.

leviathan99

pennylong wrote: »

I think it's probably the player but in a DS9 documentary I was watching the other day they did refer to the Dominion as the Other.

Were they using it in the "sociology" sense of the word? Ie. "the other" represents a different gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. to that of the observer. Often in discussions of war or group conflict or competition, your own group (whichever group you belong to is the most relevant at the moment) is referred to as the self and the group you don't belong to is "the other".

Ie. heterosexual men tend to treat women as "the other", treating them as unknowable, when romantic feelings arise.

Ie. it becomes shockingly much easier for human beings to kill enemy soldiers once they see them as "the other", when divided by a common language, cultures, and practices than it is for a newly trained soldier to kill someone who speaks his language and shares his regional values and customs.

I think a key thing to keep in mind here, regarding the Iconians:

Does The Whole include servitors or not? Does it include sibling races or not?

If it does, the Other could be anyone.

If it doesn't, then the Other is either currently biologically Iconian or got its start that way but probably isn't a species we've seen in person before aside from maybe the Tholians, Devidians, or maybe the Breen (if STO is actively going to contradict the books on the Breen's identity under those suits). There are a few other possibilities (ie. maybe the Other is the purely mechanical part of the Borg or are paristic crystals in somebody's bloodstream).

Whether the Other biologically began as Iconians or are part of a diaspora of early races seems important.

artan42

protogoth wrote: »

As for the question of "The Other," ...

One of my fleetmates (Rexyf) pointed out that the faction symbol for the Devidians is the same as the Dyson Rep symbol and FX seen in the spheres:


I then made an observation about a similarity of appearance between the ancient Dewans

(This isn't about the obvious texture similarities; the video file found at the Gateway under ch'Mol'Rihan was corrupt, and that may not represent an accurate presentation of the Dewan skin. Instead, look at the shape of the heads.) The Devidians look emaciated, while the Dewans appear to be well-fed. The Devidians seem to be rather hungry, insisting "We must feed!"

I think the Devidians could be male Iconians, it would fit with being the 'Other'. But I don't think the Devidians are the Dewans.

Also, look at the effects of the out of sync Heralds in the last episode, it looks like the subspace field modulator effects.

oldravenman3025

pennylong wrote: »

I think it's probably the player but in a DS9 documentary I was watching the other day they did refer to the Dominion as the Other.

It's pretty much futile is using canon sources to solve this mystery, since the STO portrayal of the Preservers is merely an extrapolation based on fan speculation.

But it wouldn't surprise me if they did use the Dominion, despite the fact that the Dominion wasn't even around when the Iconian Empire was at it's height. And the Tkon? They were long dead by the time the Iconians built up their galactic empire.

I hope Cryptic will surprise us instead of going for asspulls.

rattler2

The Iconians were evaluating the threat level of the Dominion, and were not considering going after them until after the Alpha and Beta Quadrants were conquered, so I doubt that the Dominion is "the Other" that saved them originally. Besides... that would have placed the Dominion as having a foothold in, or prior knowledge of, the Alpha Quadrant before First Contact in DS9.

deaftravis05

we know, from canon it's not the Borg and it's not the Dominion. We know reading this that there was a split... so Devinians are possible. Anything else, would not be from canon. Tholians could be possible.

rattler2

Tholians seem unlikely. The were wanting to study Iconian tech on New Romulus so... I don't know. They're only slightly ahead of the Federation in the tech department. I mean... ability to cross realities and energy webs. Starfleet doesn't have that kind of tech, yet the Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Republic are almost on an even footing with the Tholian Assembly.

gulberat

protogoth wrote: »

As for the question of "The Other," ...

One of my fleetmates (Rexyf) pointed out that the faction symbol for the Devidians is the same as the Dyson Rep symbol and FX seen in the spheres:

I did notice that shared symbol myself...

I then made an observation about a similarity of appearance between the ancient Dewans

and the Devidians

(This isn't about the obvious texture similarities; the video file found at the Gateway under ch'Mol'Rihan was corrupt, and that may not represent an accurate presentation of the Dewan skin. Instead, look at the shape of the heads.) The Devidians look emaciated, while the Dewans appear to be well-fed. The Devidians seem to be rather hungry, insisting "We must feed!"

This I'm not so sure of. As you rightly point out, the video is corrupt.

The other thing I would mention about the Devidians is that they are shown to have very advanced telekinetic capabilities. I am not sure they need our sort of musculature.

In fact, when I write stories for Alyosha, I posit that he must use telekinesis to support himself, including to walk in the humanoid way. His muscles are meant more to guide his movements than to take the full force of them, meaning that what would seem to be an unnaturally thin frame to us could well be the normal Devidian physique. I see no reason for it not to be.

Then I commented on the fairly common shift in language from a w to a v and vice-versa (Proto-Germanic w was pronounced like modern English w, but in modern German is pronounced like modern English v; Classical Latin v was pronounced like modern English w, but shifted to a modern English v sound sometime during the Mediaeval period after the rise of Old Italian). This is relevant depending on the stem from which both Dewan (given as DiWahn in other sources) and Devidian derive. The original stem of either (or, I would argue, of both) could be something like *dewi-, *dewa-, *deva-, or *devi-, and that would provide some linguistic evidence to add to the "heraldic" evidence and the osteological evidence (specifically the skull shape).

So a little background might be in order:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Dewan
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Devidian

While this is a nice piece of linguistic work, I would use great caution here.

As I recall, Devidia II was named by humanoids in our phase without ever knowing that a sentient species existed there in any phase. At least in my own work, I've made Alyosha aware of the fact that having been raised wholly by humans, he has no idea what his species calls itself--only the term invented by the Federation: Devidian. And personally, given the immobility of the Devidian "mouth" in natural form (while we haven't seen it in game, in canon we know they are shapeshifters), I would expect an entirely different means of communication. We do know from "Time's Arrow" and STO that they are perfectly capable of speaking our languages, but at least as far as my own work is concerned, I have posited an entirely different type of vocal apparatus from the sort of larynx that we use (even IRL species produce sounds in a huge variety of ways). As such, I personally expect the sounds of their language to have only the barest resemblance--if any--to humanoid phonology, making any attempt to suppose a connection between their spoken language and another possibly humanoid one, potentially troublesome.

None of this is to say your theory is truly impossible...I'm just not too sure of it, personally.

kimony

Hmm, first thing I thought of when I read: "The Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire. We honor the memory of the Other, just as we honor all that was lost in unjust flames." was the day the Sisko and Dukat faced off in the fire caves.

and the Pah-Wraiths did want to see the galaxy burn so I'll take a shot in the dark and say the "other" is the Kosst Amojan or the Pah-Wraiths?

They were lost in unjust flames that day

Or maybe it's Dukat himself! (Insert cliffhanger music here)

rattler2

The Day of Fire could refer to the day Iconia was bombarded though. I mean... we are talking about a planet getting glassed.

themetalstickman

That seems the most likely to me. To quote T'Ket, "Now you speak of ghosts...The Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire. We honor the memory of the Other, just as we honor all that was lost in unjust flames." To me, this implies that the Iconians that we are familiar with believe that the Other is dead, missing, or something of the sort. Or, if the Other is the Sphere Builders, that they are responding to the absence of the Other the same way that Taris responded to their silence in the mission "Taris." Although this is simply my speculation, it could suggest that it's possible that the Iconians themselves are being manipulated. Recall M'Tara's line in Blood of Ancients when the Preserver asks her to "make a different choice," and she responds with "I cannot." Just my opinion though.

gulberat

themetalstickman wrote: »

That seems the most likely to me. To quote T'Ket, "Now you speak of ghosts...The Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire. We honor the memory of the Other, just as we honor all that was lost in unjust flames." To me, this implies that the Iconians that we are familiar with believe that the Other is dead, missing, or something of the sort. Or, if the Other is the Sphere Builders, that they are responding to the absence of the Other the same way that Taris responded to their silence in the mission "Taris." Although this is simply my speculation, it could suggest that it's possible that the Iconians themselves are being manipulated. Recall M'Tara's line in Blood of Ancients when the Preserver asks her to "make a different choice," and she responds with "I cannot." Just my opinion though.

To me the idea of an Iconian turncoat is the greatest possibility...I suspect this individual sided against his/her brothers and sisters, until the retribution of the other species against the Iconians grew so great that genocide was the inevitable outcome. I suspect at that point, the turncoat was horrified and saved the Iconians we see from death, but did not do so out of any warmth or affection towards them, or any change of opinion about how the Iconians were treating the "lesser" species.

reximuz

protogoth wrote: »

Not the Pah Wraiths, who seem to be about evenly matched with the Prophets, and the Prophets are a younger race than the Iconians, iirc. The Founders are a younger race than the Prophets. The Borg are not 600k years old as someone claimed in this forum the last time there was a discussion of "The Other," but appear to be considerably younger:

Intelligence provided by Erika Hernandez during in the Borg Invasion of 2381 suggest the Borg have a definite point of origin from a crashed and temporally-displaced Caeliar cityship, Mantilis, in 4527 BCE. However there has also been evidence of Borg activity much earlier, such as the assimilation of the Hirogen homeworld around 110,000 BCE, and possible Borg-Preserver conflicts dating back to billions of years ago. (ST - Destiny novel: Lost Souls; TOS novel: Probe; ST short story: "The Hunted"; TNG novel: Vendetta)

-- http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_history

According to the Vaadwar in Voyager, the Borg were barely a thing, and just a nuisance at best when their empire was in full swing, this would indicate that the Borg aren't all that old, Maybe dating back to about 500-1000 CE.

elric071 wrote: »

deaftravis05 wrote: »

65 million years ago and I dont think it's the Voth. The Voth are too old.

Sorry, your right....got my millions mixed up

I don't know that the Voth would be too old, though...The Preserver that gets killed by M'Tara tells you that the Iconinans are the first of their children IIRC. Since the Voth are also their children (as are we, by the storyline) it would stand to reason that the Voth are not as old as the Iconinans.

I could be wrong, though. Been a while since I played that particular mission.

Qapla'!

We don't know how old the Iconian civilization was, just that it fell 200,000 years ago, so it seem likely that Iconia existed before the Voth. This would also mean they are older then the T'Kon which fell over 600,000 years ago.

angrytarg

"The other" is most likely just the next big bad, even bigger and badder than the "ultimate power" that are the iconians, so we have something to shoot next season.

I just hope it isn't devidians, because I find it very unsatisfying to shoot magic floating wizards and energy clouds in my Star Trek game.

gulberat

angrytarg wrote: »

"The other" is most likely just the next big bad, even bigger and badder than the "ultimate power" that are the iconians, so we have something to shoot next season.

Now, that is the tactic a group of us fanfic authors have taken in the War of the Masters story, though we have not reached this point in our own storytelling.

I just hope it isn't devidians, because I find it very unsatisfying to shoot magic floating wizards and energy clouds in my Star Trek game.

I hope not as well because although I find the Devidians fascinating as a species, I think that writing them into that role is not the most sensible way to go, plot-wise.

Now, I could see where they were (perhaps formerly) affiliated with the Iconians in some fashion as an attempt at a temporal servitor--though it would be interesting if we find out they defied the Iconians either out of self-interest or anger at something the Iconians did to them. No doubt it would anger the Iconians beyond belief that not only did the Devidians defy them, but because of their temporal manipulation abilities--which are IMO at least on par with the Krenim--they cannot pursue them and punish them for fear of losing their sanity.

It would be very interesting...and quite chilling...for the player to have to consider the possibility of attempting negotiations with the Devidians, knowing very well that they might not just risk refusal, but being stabbed in the back at the soonest opportunity even if the Devidians did accept.

angrytarg

gulberat wrote: »

Now, that is the tactic a group of us fanfic authors have taken in the War of the Masters story, though we have not reached this point in our own storytelling.

I personally don't like this approach very much. I am tired of fighting the ultimate evil for survival since we did that so many times already it just gets ridiculous and tiresome at one point. If we need another pumped, full fledged conflict I would like a reasonable adversary, maybe someone whose point you can even see but for the greater good you have to oppose. That's what I suspect Tholians do with "us" at the current point in the game. I'm just tired of adversaries that are just evil and powerful for the sake of being evil and powerful and just want to destroy/enslave everyone out of boredom or blind fanaticism.

I hope not as well because although I find the Devidians fascinating as a species, I think that writing them into that role is not the most sensible way to go, plot-wise.

I agree. It's not that they lack potential, but we just had the whole floating, teleporting space wizards. Just changing their in-game models and go on with floating, portals and magic lightning bolts would just be a bit boring.

gulberat

angrytarg wrote: »

I personally don't like this approach very much. I am tired of fighting the ultimate evil for survival since we did that so many times already it just gets ridiculous and tiresome at one point. If we need another pumped, full fledged conflict I would like a reasonable adversary, maybe someone whose point you can even see but for the greater good you have to oppose. That's what I suspect Tholians do with "us" at the current point in the game. I'm just tired of adversaries that are just evil and powerful for the sake of being evil and powerful and just want to destroy/enslave everyone out of boredom or blind fanaticism.

In some ways, I think we got that with the Vaadwaur. They were wrong, and especially under Gaul, brutal, Machiavellian totalitarians who had no hesitation about using the cruelest and most shocking tactics possible to get the job done. But when you learn what the Kobali are doing to them, and when you work side-by-side with Eldex, you start to see them in a more three-dimensional manner and have to wonder if on certain occasions they have a point even if they are going about it in entirely the wrong way. (Something that was especially poignant when playing my Cardassian...I ended up writing that in a story called "The Blood of Dragons.")

But for the idea that someone else is pulling the Iconians' strings, I think it really depends on the quality of the writing. I would also dare say that you can take greater risks in written format as opposed to an MMO or a movie, because you have more of a chance to convince the reader if you do it well. I'm not sure how well Cryptic could do with that concept, in fair part because of the limitations of the medium. Of course, I am biased in feeling it's doable because I have written stories for a universe where we are doing so (IMO) successfully, but again, it's written rather than in game.

I hope not as well because although I find the Devidians fascinating as a species, I think that writing them into that role is not the most sensible way to go, plot-wise.

I agree. It's not that they lack potential, but we just had the whole floating, teleporting space wizards. Just changing their in-game models and go on with floating, portals and magic lightning bolts would just be a bit boring.

I actually never saw them as wizards or doing anything mystical by Star Trek standards, but rather as having abilities that are easier to make sense out of than those of the Heralds. I consider them closer to Undine level, in terms of their biotech, and in terms of physiology, very powerful telekinetically but in body, more frail than you or me. But then I've also spent a good bit of time writing, sometimes first-person, from within that alien biology as I see it, so that takes away a lot of the "mystical" element for me.

nathrael

I agree with Gavinruneblade. "The Other" is almost certainly the player character. Likely some type of temporal intervention is at work here, and if it involved shunting the Iconians then they would have no memory of the person that saved them other then probably second/third person recordings and fragmented data.

It also makes sense from the "Heroic" point of view. Rather then annihilating them, intervene in such a way that they do not build up 200,000 years of a desire for revenge. This will pretty much require a temporal incursion, but it maks a lot of internal sense, especially considering M'Tara's words.

themetalstickman

But T'Ket said that "the Other has not been seen since the Day of Fire." Which means that either M'Tara doesn't recognize the PC (she's encountered the PC twice now, although not directly), hasn't told the other Iconians, or the PC is not the Other, although as you state, nathrael, the necessary temporal incursion could affect the Iconians' memories.

gulberat

nathrael wrote: »

It also makes sense from the "Heroic" point of view. Rather then annihilating them, intervene in such a way that they do not build up 200,000 years of a desire for revenge. This will pretty much require a temporal incursion, but it maks a lot of internal sense, especially considering M'Tara's words.

That could be--because I was getting uneasy about the idea of annihilating even a horrible civilization.

kojirohellfire

reximuz wrote: »

protogoth wrote: »

Not the Pah Wraiths, who seem to be about evenly matched with the Prophets, and the Prophets are a younger race than the Iconians, iirc. The Founders are a younger race than the Prophets. The Borg are not 600k years old as someone claimed in this forum the last time there was a discussion of "The Other," but appear to be considerably younger:

Intelligence provided by Erika Hernandez during in the Borg Invasion of 2381 suggest the Borg have a definite point of origin from a crashed and temporally-displaced Caeliar cityship, Mantilis, in 4527 BCE. However there has also been evidence of Borg activity much earlier, such as the assimilation of the Hirogen homeworld around 110,000 BCE, and possible Borg-Preserver conflicts dating back to billions of years ago. (ST - Destiny novel: Lost Souls; TOS novel: Probe; ST short story: "The Hunted"; TNG novel: Vendetta)

-- http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_history

According to the Vaadwar in Voyager, the Borg were barely a thing, and just a nuisance at best when their empire was in full swing, this would indicate that the Borg aren't all that old, Maybe dating back to about 500-1000 CE.

Guinan, in "Q Who" (first appearance of the Borg) said that the Borg have been around for "thousands of centuries." Concerning the Vaadwaur statement, 7 only states that the Borg memory of "900 years ago is fragmentary." One could surmise that the Borg suffered a major damaging setback to their Collective those 900 years ago, explaining the "fragmentary" comment, as it seems peculiar for a cybernetic hive species like the Borg to have any sort of "fragments" unless something went terribly wrong.

duncanidaho11

nathrael wrote: »

I agree with Gavinruneblade. "The Other" is almost certainly the player character. Likely some type of temporal intervention is at work here, and if it involved shunting the Iconians then they would have no memory of the person that saved them other then probably second/third person recordings and fragmented data.

It also makes sense from the "Heroic" point of view. Rather then annihilating them, intervene in such a way that they do not build up 200,000 years of a desire for revenge. This will pretty much require a temporal incursion, but it maks a lot of internal sense, especially considering M'Tara's words.

I can't see that happening. This isn't knights of the old republic. The player character is not central to the narrative. We're just around to act as the facilitator to a plot which is driven entirely by the reactions of other characters. If we can deduce anything its that anyone with a central role in the STO universe isn't going to be us. Its going to be someone else that other characters will be able to make decisive statements about (that's how the plot works. We're a vehicle, not a focus).

You'd also think that the Iconians, if we were vital in the existence of their species, would have held back at some point or even just reacted especially to the player. But no, not even a wink. That I think buries any hope for a "Revan." Beyond the mechanical difficulties, there's absolutely nothing pointing in that direction. Any other guess would be at least as likely (ex. Wesley, the Tranya Guy, Liquidator Brunt, Lincoln, Riker's Beard, ect.) and they wouldn't involve us as the facilitator to an incredibly dim game of near-genocidal extortion (don't send our whole down a temporal singularity and we'll merely stop trying to kill you all once you get back, that is after having first tried in spite of the knowledge that the other did in fact save us from oblivion.)

vorwoda

elric071 wrote: »

azniadeet wrote: »

[SNIP]
But I'd say, from my miniscule Earthly perspective, that subjugation of the population of the galaxy using fear seems pretty "evil" to me. Again, just my opinion.
[/SNIP]

I used to think that way, too...until I played Star Control II. In that game, it turns out that having earth and the other free worlds enslaved by paranoid, hyper-territorial, dreadnought-flying, 9-meter-long caterpillars WAS the benevolent option. Because the OTHER space caterpillars were even worse!

On topic: My instinct says that the Other is Q. He's the only one powerful enough to impress/terrorize/force worship from the Iconians. he probably corrupted them as a lark shortly after the Preservers made them, just to test the Preservers or Iconians or both. And this entire current war could be another test, to see if humanity and co. will figure out their Achilles Heel.

Just my two EC.

duncanidaho11

vorwoda wrote: »

On topic: My instinct says that the Other is Q. He's the only one powerful enough to impress/terrorize/force worship from the Iconians. he probably corrupted them as a lark shortly after the Preservers made them, just to test the Preservers or Iconians or both. And this entire current war could be another test, to see if humanity and co. will figure out their Achilles Heel.

Just my two EC.

It may be worth keeping in mind that "testing" in Q's sense isn't testing in the sense of an evaluation. Each and every case has been to reinforce a point of view or to force a change in perspective where necessary (see. Picard's second chance, the ambition-blunting introduction to the borg). He's guiding evolution towards some implicitly "noble" end (which is compatible with the preservers, though with a much broader point of view). Q's an evil, irreverent, self-serving TRIBBLE in facade only.

Therefore if Q gets involved its to make a point for someone else (albeit with style). If that point involves saving the iconians, then its a very big point, pivotal to life, the universe, and everything (ie. beyond conventional morality) and one that damn well should be made.

Its a good guess, but "corruption" probably isn't going to feature. :P

dheffernan

The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.

But then, there's a lot wrong with the chronology already. It's being said that the Iconians are the Preserver's "first children". Problem is, the Iconian civilization dates to about 200,000 years ago while the Preservers went out billions of years ago. (This also precludes them having anything to do with the planet of Hollywood Sioux refugees from TOS.) The Iconians aren't even as old as (say) the TKon. And the idea of the Voth civilization being 75 million years old is just silly. They'd either be having tea and scones with the Organians or they'd have died out a long time ago. N.B. that the Voth should be bumping up against all of the aforementioned races but evidently have not.

Of course, this is what you get when you try to forge long-term continuity out of stuff churned out by people who couldn't keep the sex of a cat straight.

kojirohellfire

dheffernan wrote: »

The VOY ep "Dragon's Teeth" says that as of the fall of the Vaadwaur civilization c. 900 years ago the Borg had only assimilated a few systems. Whatever may have gotten into a novel notwithstanding, the Borg are not that old.

So are you stating that Guinan didn't know what she was talking about?