But this thread is overflowing with the folks that have always strongly posted in a direction of not having to make any choices and simply having everything.
Well, if it had been me, there would be no Federation cloaks or Carriers or Bird of Preys/Raider or Battlecruiser.
But also no KDF Science Vessels.
But even if all that had happened - if the story telling of the game has moved on beyond a faction conflict and we're now an alliance, I think that should also be mirrored on a fleet level. Joint Fleet Operations between factions make perfect sense to me.
Also, it makes perfects sense on a social level that your KDF and FED fleets have recruited from overlapping players, and these players would want the ability to also ally their fleets, if some concept of fleet alliances is added to the game.
Also, you mischaracterize or misunderstand the "being undecided" part of my post. Why should a player decide to only play one faction? That makes no sense to me. A game with strong factions should make playing different factions highly desirable, because they each offer something unique.
(The aforementioned ship class divide for example. If Fed is the only species with Science Vessels and KDF is the only species with BOPs and Carriers, you got a pretty good reason to play both sides, because they enable very different gameplay experience). Or is that already entitled, wanting to experience everything in a game, and not just a fraction of it?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
1) Regarding the shared content - it's not something unique to this game. It's pretty common to multiple faction games out there - at some point, voila, folks from different factions are hitting up shared content. The longer that game goes, the more shared content they're going to be hitting up.
2) Regarding the war being over "now"...well, let's take a look at the episodes for the different factions, eh? Since this was a Romulan started thread, will start there...move on to the populous Feds...and wrap up with the KDF.
Romulans...never see the war. The war is over that fast in the game. They pick an allied faction without being a part of the war.
Federation...the war is over before one is even halfway through the Klingon War arc - if one could say that there was much of a war there at all in the first place.
KDF...it's almost as difficult to find the war there as it is with the Feds. It just kind of disappears around level 12 or so.
Basically, no war...war gone by level 14-15 and gone by level 12.
The war was never a big thing. (Heh, seems to be the general sense with most of the "wars" and conflicts in the game.)
But, but, but...Virus???
Yeah, okay, DOFFing...lol...the temporal hijinx with DOFFing allows everybody to partake in the war as long as they want to do it. There's been more conflict in DOFFing for years than there even was in PvP. It's a trip, sadly.
* * * * *
#1 and #2 there...kind of fit the standard PVE MMO thing, and shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Factions, little emphasis on any war between them (more of a cold war if even that), and all sorts of shared content.
* * * * *
So what about Fleets across factions and trying to build them? What about it? Dil can be moved between toons. Commodities can be moved between toons. Voila, Feds can build up their KDF fleets and KDF can build up their Fed fleets. People have been doing that for years. It's not something that's missing from the game...cause it's already there.
Which goes back to what the OP actually wants...
"Should the coming Armada system allow cross-faction groupings of fleets?"
"Yes! But only if all fleets involved in an Armada have a single RRF character in the top fleet rank."
...it's even what they voted for. Has nothing to do with Feds or KDF, but just about trying to give the Romulans more of an appearance as less of a fraction.
They've done far too much to erase diversity of play and experience in this game.
This far, no further.
It's not meant to be "welcome to space. You are a space captain, choose anything you like, it's all the same."
It's supposed to be Star Trek.
This argument is kind of funny since that is exactly what Star Trek preaches. Hell, the Federation makes it a strong point when they can basically juryrig or fix any species ships or computers or whatever, no problem.
Anyways, there is no point to the division. There really was no point to hard line factioning either. This is Star Trek. A series about the human condition, reaching out to the stars and exploring space and meeting new life. None of which actually happens currently in STO, as we end up going in guns blazing in the vast majority of missions we undertake.
Anyways, there is no point to the division. There really was no point to hard line factioning either. This is Star Trek. A series about the human condition, reaching out to the stars and exploring space and meeting new life. None of which actually happens currently in STO, as we end up going in guns blazing in the vast majority of missions we undertake.
You say that's what the series is about, but that's what the monologue was about...did you actually watch any of the shows or movies?
The Armada system is just a tip jar. It doesn't confer access to bases or other fleet's perks.
All that's being asked is that people have the option to fill an opposite faction fleet's tip jar without getting access to anything that fleet has or gets.
If they allowed people to fill one another's tip jar across factions and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that.
The Armada system is just a tip jar. It doesn't confer access to bases or other fleet's perks.
All that's being asked is that people have the option to fill an opposite faction fleet's tip jar without getting access to anything that fleet has or gets.
If they allowed people to fill one another's tip jar across factions and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that.
All of that is true. With regard to the last bit, since about 1980, not content to refrain from doing things of which they disapprove themselves, people seem to have had a growing and unfortunate tendency to want to impose their dislikes on others, which is another of the poisoned fruit produced by the accursed false dilemma. One would think -- and hope -- that an MMORPG based on the Trek IP would have Devs willing to do the work necessary to take a stand against the false dilemma in an effort to help subvert the false dilemma and encourage some of the progress of which the visionary creators and writers of the various Trek series and movies dreamed.
this has never been about my choice to participate, or about gear access. its about anyone being able to participate at all.
and if we are going to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity, i could go ahead and say if they legalised slavery and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that either.
this has never been about my choice to participate, or about gear access. its about anyone being able to participate at all.
Exactly. And if you dislike the possibility, why should your dislike be imposed on anyone other than yourself and your own fleet(s)? Justify your answer.
and if we are going to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity, i could go ahead and say if they legalised slavery and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that either.
Your analogy is flawed, because slavery involves non-consent. The Armada system will not require you to set up a cross-faction Armada, unlike slavery, which would require some to be slaves whether they like it or not. Under the Armada system, you can choose those fleets with whom you wish to enter into partnership, and reject those with whom you do not wish to enter into partnership, whether the system allow for cross-faction partnerships or no.
The question here is whether cross-faction Armadas should be allowed, not whether they should be required.
(...)
and if we are going to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity, i could go ahead and say if they legalised slavery and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that either.
You don't see anything wrong with that analogy of yours?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
and if we are going to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity, i could go ahead and say if they legalised slavery and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that either.
You don't see anything wrong with that analogy of yours?
of course i do. it was an obvious attempt to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity. i even said so right there in the post.
of course i do. it was an obvious attempt to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity. i even said so right there in the post.
This is not "the deep end", though. The deep end would be the most extreme and unlikely, yet possible example. Your example is however not comparable, it's factually a different thing. You could have as well said "I will now post something completely unrelated before we continue this discussion".
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
of course i do. it was an obvious attempt to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity. i even said so right there in the post.
This is not "the deep end", though. The deep end would be the most extreme and unlikely, yet possible example. Your example is however not comparable, it's factually a different thing. You could have as well said "I will now post something completely unrelated before we continue this discussion".
thats exactly what conflation is! kinda like 'tipjar' and 'you dont need to participate' rebuttals to my argument, right?
thats exactly what conflation is! kinda like 'tipjar' and 'you dont need to participate' rebuttals to my argument, right?
"You don't need to participate" is indeed no counter to your argument but maybe more of a hint at the banality of the issue (as in if you don't participate the issue has no bearing on yourself or your fleet).
The argument itself is about the question wether or not Cryptic "should" allow cross-faction armada forming which would result in a possible and voluntary sharing of project input resources. Whatever we come up with has no bearing on Cryptic's decision in the first place and their current stance is that it's technically impossible at the moment, but they mabe look into it.
So, the status quo is that it will not happen with the introduction of fleet armadas.
Should they, though?
Pro: Yes, because it makes sense from an in-game lore perspective which placed the two factions in a state of alliance and cooperation.
Pro: Yes, because fleets as a out-of-game meta-organization with seperate parts in-game could support both parts of their in-game fleet equally from both sides.
Pro: Yes, because it would be fun from a RP perspective.
Con: No, because it would lead to less participation of players in one faction if they are allowed to advance that fleet's project from the other.
These are basically all valid arguments we have (I think, maybe I missed one). Loss of faction uniqueness cannot be adressed because that is not even part of the original proposal as the Armada system doesn't alter the fleet store system at all (confirmed).
So a viable counter to your argument would be if people wouldn't want to log in with their KDF characters, why would they want to build the KDF fleet in the first place? Especially since grinding fleet resources is easier on KDF side. You are assuming people will build the KDF fleet fedside to get the best toys for KDF alts they don't use in the first place? I personally can't see how that will influence KDF playerbase at all.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So a viable counter to your argument would be if people wouldn't want to log in with their KDF characters, why would they want to build the KDF fleet in the first place? Especially since grinding fleet resources is easier on KDF side. You are assuming people will build the KDF fleet fedside to get the best toys for KDF alts they don't use in the first place? I personally can't see how that will influence KDF playerbase at all.
the toys arent the issue. my argument is predicated on the assumption that there is no cross-faction gear aquisition. my issue is the very notion of advancing a starbase on a faction you arent even needing to log into.
um... 'easier'??? really, Angrytarg? is there some sooper-sekrit source of Engineering and Operations doffs, cheap resources, etc. for KDF that nobody's told me about??
'cause I ain't seen it if there is. What I can note, is that KDF players seem more involved in their fleets, more willing to put in the effort, proportionally, to level their holdings...but they're doing it with a lot fewer bodies and a lot fewer sources for everything but Dilithium-which has recently gotten cut back.
"Easier"...heh.
Let's see: White DOFFs for projects are acquired via Academy missions and the fleet starbase itself (fleet doff packs). No difference here. KDF can however maraud for input commodities in addition to buying them, maraud for contraband which is a source for dil (though I wouldn't want to harp on that since dil is easy to grind out for everyone in battlezones, dailies or via rep) and the fleet things you need to buy for fleet credits are the same for both. So, if there is a way for feds to create the commodities for free in that magnitude or to generate dil more easily KDF is at a advantage. You can't include "less players" in the equation because - that's nobodies fault, really. People could play KDF if they so desired.
the toys arent the issue. my argument is predicated on the assumption that there is no cross-faction gear aquisition. my issue is the very notion of advancing a starbase on a faction you arent even needing to log into.
But I ask you, why would people do that in the first place? Why would someone level a KDF fleet when they had no desire to play KDF at all? This is something which I can't wrap my head around, or why this should be an issue.
If your argument solely is based on the principle of "that isn't right in my opinion because" then it's an opinion, not an argument ad boils down to "I don't like it". Someone could answer "then don't do it, but why should everyone be denied a feature because you don't like it?" which boils down to "don't participate". It doesn't really matter if hundred or thousand players would come together stating they don't like it because there is nothing to reinforce that stance with.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
So, if there is a way for feds to create the commodities for free in that magnitude or to generate dil more easily KDF is at a advantage. You can't include "less players" in the equation because - that's nobodies fault, really. People could play KDF if they so desired.
feds have exclusive access to ferengis, which is way more useful than a couple doffing missions lol
But I ask you, why would people do that in the first place? Why would someone level a KDF fleet when they had no desire to play KDF at all? This is something which I can't wrap my head around, or why this should be an issue.
they are already pining to do it. i have zero doubt that fed fleets would choose their abandoned kdf starbase as a gamma so they could advance it while playing fed for pretty much no reason other than being able to crow about their 't5 fed and t5 kdf starbases'.
feds have exclusive access to ferengis, which is way more useful than a couple doffing missions lol
I didn't think about that. Yeah, a 20% discount on fleet commodity costs is indeed a hefty sum. Free commodities are still technically better, but I cannot say which one is the overall "better" position since time is something going into the equation. If you treat is as a race, though, probably feds are better off.
they are already pining to do it. i have zero doubt that fed fleets would choose their abandoned kdf starbase as a gamma so they could advance it while playing fed for pretty much no reason other than being able to crow about their 't5 fed and t5 kdf starbases'.
So, you are against the possiblity because some people will brag about having a T5 kdf starbase leveled with fed characters?
If so I kinda do understand your point but I cannot say I can follow it since it's just a personal feeling. So I think I don't have anything new to add at this point other than it isn't really a viable argument for or against anything.
EDIT: stupid new forum quotes
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
feds have exclusive access to ferengis, which is way more useful than a couple doffing missions lol
I didn't think about that. Yeah, a 20% discount on fleet commodity costs is indeed a hefty sum. Free commodities are still technically better, but I cannot say which one is the overall "better" position since time is something going into the equation. If you treat is as a race, though, probably feds are better off.
The discount is also available to everyone at the vendor aboard Suliban Cell Ships. Plus, there's a channel where you can ask for invites if you don't have your own cell ship. Ferengi might get a discount on top of this discount, but I'm not sure to what extent.
The discount is also available to everyone at the vendor aboard Suliban Cell Ships. Plus, there's a channel where you can ask for invites if you don't have your own cell ship. Ferengi might get a discount on top of this discount, but I'm not sure to what extent.
i just went and had a test. i sent both a ferengi and a vanilla kdf to the cellship commodity guy:
communication array
vanilla kdf/fed: 150 ec
ferengi fed: 120 ec
Are you accusing me of that? Best reevaluate things before you continue down this path.
I now suspect:
Your issue isn't so much hysterical panic as it is the desire to maintain your elite status by keeping others down as much as possible. You don't want the competition. You don't want other fleets to share in the limelight of Fleet Eliteness.
youre accusing me of that?
for two years i have been inviting members of small fleets to t5 holdings and giving them free fleet ship access. i do this for the good of the faction. i do this to keep small fleets viable, rather than poaching all their members and trying to operate some sort multi-fleet fiefdom. lots of people will talk about how helping smaller fleets is such a noble duty, yet i am one of the few people that has actually gone out of my way to do much about it.
Yet you willingly hurt your faction by arguing to stick with a broken faction system that doesn't and has never worked. It would help KDF to not be segmented from the majority of players, which just forces more players to the Fed side, because they want to be able to find teams to run content and viable fleets.
And accusing died in the wool Romulan's of not wanting to put in the work to rank up a Starbase. If they added fresh Romulan starbases tomorrow there are a lot of us that would be more then willing to grind it all out again just to have our own.
The faction barrier needs to be removed from the game, and the sooner the better.
In some cases, the same players in a Fed fleet Are also in a KDF fleet, so they would naturally want to maximize their own efforts by joining the two in an armada. In that case, the fleet leadership would be the same players, and management issues would be streamlined, and the potential for abuse minimized. Especially for small fleets, which could feel marginalized by their fealty to a larger fleet...
Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
Yet you willingly hurt your faction by arguing to stick with a broken faction system that doesn't and has never worked. It would help KDF to not be segmented from the majority of players, which just forces more players to the Fed side, because they want to be able to find teams to run content and viable fleets.
the only people hurting the kdf are cryptic, by constantly pandering to the feddie crybabies that want it all on their feddie mains.
how would allowing feds to build kdf starbases solve the false team dilemma or otherwise help the kdf?
the kdf doesnt need the help of feds to build starbases. i can think of a dozen orgs with one or more t5 kdf starbases as it is. we also manage to team, using kdf-centric channels and the like.
more evidence that nonkdf seemingly think they see a problem in the kdf and they have the answer. and of course that answer includes allowing them to nation-build kdf-side without needing to even log into the faction.
Comments
But also no KDF Science Vessels.
But even if all that had happened - if the story telling of the game has moved on beyond a faction conflict and we're now an alliance, I think that should also be mirrored on a fleet level. Joint Fleet Operations between factions make perfect sense to me.
Also, it makes perfects sense on a social level that your KDF and FED fleets have recruited from overlapping players, and these players would want the ability to also ally their fleets, if some concept of fleet alliances is added to the game.
Also, you mischaracterize or misunderstand the "being undecided" part of my post. Why should a player decide to only play one faction? That makes no sense to me. A game with strong factions should make playing different factions highly desirable, because they each offer something unique.
(The aforementioned ship class divide for example. If Fed is the only species with Science Vessels and KDF is the only species with BOPs and Carriers, you got a pretty good reason to play both sides, because they enable very different gameplay experience). Or is that already entitled, wanting to experience everything in a game, and not just a fraction of it?
1) Regarding the shared content - it's not something unique to this game. It's pretty common to multiple faction games out there - at some point, voila, folks from different factions are hitting up shared content. The longer that game goes, the more shared content they're going to be hitting up.
2) Regarding the war being over "now"...well, let's take a look at the episodes for the different factions, eh? Since this was a Romulan started thread, will start there...move on to the populous Feds...and wrap up with the KDF.
Romulans...never see the war. The war is over that fast in the game. They pick an allied faction without being a part of the war.
Federation...the war is over before one is even halfway through the Klingon War arc - if one could say that there was much of a war there at all in the first place.
KDF...it's almost as difficult to find the war there as it is with the Feds. It just kind of disappears around level 12 or so.
Basically, no war...war gone by level 14-15 and gone by level 12.
The war was never a big thing. (Heh, seems to be the general sense with most of the "wars" and conflicts in the game.)
But, but, but...Virus???
Yeah, okay, DOFFing...lol...the temporal hijinx with DOFFing allows everybody to partake in the war as long as they want to do it. There's been more conflict in DOFFing for years than there even was in PvP. It's a trip, sadly.
* * * * *
#1 and #2 there...kind of fit the standard PVE MMO thing, and shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Factions, little emphasis on any war between them (more of a cold war if even that), and all sorts of shared content.
* * * * *
So what about Fleets across factions and trying to build them? What about it? Dil can be moved between toons. Commodities can be moved between toons. Voila, Feds can build up their KDF fleets and KDF can build up their Fed fleets. People have been doing that for years. It's not something that's missing from the game...cause it's already there.
Which goes back to what the OP actually wants...
"Should the coming Armada system allow cross-faction groupings of fleets?"
"Yes! But only if all fleets involved in an Armada have a single RRF character in the top fleet rank."
...it's even what they voted for. Has nothing to do with Feds or KDF, but just about trying to give the Romulans more of an appearance as less of a fraction.
/shrug
I'm the only person that you quoted in your reply there, yet I didn't reply to you...so I'm not sure what's up with this.
This argument is kind of funny since that is exactly what Star Trek preaches. Hell, the Federation makes it a strong point when they can basically juryrig or fix any species ships or computers or whatever, no problem.
Anyways, there is no point to the division. There really was no point to hard line factioning either. This is Star Trek. A series about the human condition, reaching out to the stars and exploring space and meeting new life. None of which actually happens currently in STO, as we end up going in guns blazing in the vast majority of missions we undertake.
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PvP.
PvPers need a deep and well developed story to provide the motivation to shoot each other.
You say that's what the series is about, but that's what the monologue was about...did you actually watch any of the shows or movies?
RP-PvPers perhaps. Other folks just need folks to shoot at.
All that's being asked is that people have the option to fill an opposite faction fleet's tip jar without getting access to anything that fleet has or gets.
If they allowed people to fill one another's tip jar across factions and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that.
All of that is true. With regard to the last bit, since about 1980, not content to refrain from doing things of which they disapprove themselves, people seem to have had a growing and unfortunate tendency to want to impose their dislikes on others, which is another of the poisoned fruit produced by the accursed false dilemma. One would think -- and hope -- that an MMORPG based on the Trek IP would have Devs willing to do the work necessary to take a stand against the false dilemma in an effort to help subvert the false dilemma and encourage some of the progress of which the visionary creators and writers of the various Trek series and movies dreamed.
and if we are going to go off the deep end and conflate to the degree of absurdity, i could go ahead and say if they legalised slavery and you don't like it, you could simply not participate in that either.
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Exactly. And if you dislike the possibility, why should your dislike be imposed on anyone other than yourself and your own fleet(s)? Justify your answer.
Your analogy is flawed, because slavery involves non-consent. The Armada system will not require you to set up a cross-faction Armada, unlike slavery, which would require some to be slaves whether they like it or not. Under the Armada system, you can choose those fleets with whom you wish to enter into partnership, and reject those with whom you do not wish to enter into partnership, whether the system allow for cross-faction partnerships or no.
The question here is whether cross-faction Armadas should be allowed, not whether they should be required.
You don't see anything wrong with that analogy of yours?
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This is not "the deep end", though. The deep end would be the most extreme and unlikely, yet possible example. Your example is however not comparable, it's factually a different thing. You could have as well said "I will now post something completely unrelated before we continue this discussion".
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"You don't need to participate" is indeed no counter to your argument but maybe more of a hint at the banality of the issue (as in if you don't participate the issue has no bearing on yourself or your fleet).
The argument itself is about the question wether or not Cryptic "should" allow cross-faction armada forming which would result in a possible and voluntary sharing of project input resources. Whatever we come up with has no bearing on Cryptic's decision in the first place and their current stance is that it's technically impossible at the moment, but they mabe look into it.
So, the status quo is that it will not happen with the introduction of fleet armadas.
Should they, though?
Pro: Yes, because it makes sense from an in-game lore perspective which placed the two factions in a state of alliance and cooperation.
Pro: Yes, because fleets as a out-of-game meta-organization with seperate parts in-game could support both parts of their in-game fleet equally from both sides.
Pro: Yes, because it would be fun from a RP perspective.
Con: No, because it would lead to less participation of players in one faction if they are allowed to advance that fleet's project from the other.
These are basically all valid arguments we have (I think, maybe I missed one). Loss of faction uniqueness cannot be adressed because that is not even part of the original proposal as the Armada system doesn't alter the fleet store system at all (confirmed).
So a viable counter to your argument would be if people wouldn't want to log in with their KDF characters, why would they want to build the KDF fleet in the first place? Especially since grinding fleet resources is easier on KDF side. You are assuming people will build the KDF fleet fedside to get the best toys for KDF alts they don't use in the first place? I personally can't see how that will influence KDF playerbase at all.
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Let's see: White DOFFs for projects are acquired via Academy missions and the fleet starbase itself (fleet doff packs). No difference here. KDF can however maraud for input commodities in addition to buying them, maraud for contraband which is a source for dil (though I wouldn't want to harp on that since dil is easy to grind out for everyone in battlezones, dailies or via rep) and the fleet things you need to buy for fleet credits are the same for both. So, if there is a way for feds to create the commodities for free in that magnitude or to generate dil more easily KDF is at a advantage. You can't include "less players" in the equation because - that's nobodies fault, really. People could play KDF if they so desired.
But I ask you, why would people do that in the first place? Why would someone level a KDF fleet when they had no desire to play KDF at all? This is something which I can't wrap my head around, or why this should be an issue.
If your argument solely is based on the principle of "that isn't right in my opinion because" then it's an opinion, not an argument ad boils down to "I don't like it". Someone could answer "then don't do it, but why should everyone be denied a feature because you don't like it?" which boils down to "don't participate". It doesn't really matter if hundred or thousand players would come together stating they don't like it because there is nothing to reinforce that stance with.
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they are already pining to do it. i have zero doubt that fed fleets would choose their abandoned kdf starbase as a gamma so they could advance it while playing fed for pretty much no reason other than being able to crow about their 't5 fed and t5 kdf starbases'.
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I didn't think about that. Yeah, a 20% discount on fleet commodity costs is indeed a hefty sum. Free commodities are still technically better, but I cannot say which one is the overall "better" position since time is something going into the equation. If you treat is as a race, though, probably feds are better off.
So, you are against the possiblity because some people will brag about having a T5 kdf starbase leveled with fed characters?
If so I kinda do understand your point but I cannot say I can follow it since it's just a personal feeling. So I think I don't have anything new to add at this point other than it isn't really a viable argument for or against anything.
EDIT: stupid new forum quotes
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The discount is also available to everyone at the vendor aboard Suliban Cell Ships. Plus, there's a channel where you can ask for invites if you don't have your own cell ship. Ferengi might get a discount on top of this discount, but I'm not sure to what extent.
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vanilla kdf/fed: 150 ec
ferengi fed: 120 ec
ferengi gets a discount of 20%
that was never in debate, but thanks for your opinion anyway.
i guess.
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Yet you willingly hurt your faction by arguing to stick with a broken faction system that doesn't and has never worked. It would help KDF to not be segmented from the majority of players, which just forces more players to the Fed side, because they want to be able to find teams to run content and viable fleets.
And accusing died in the wool Romulan's of not wanting to put in the work to rank up a Starbase. If they added fresh Romulan starbases tomorrow there are a lot of us that would be more then willing to grind it all out again just to have our own.
The faction barrier needs to be removed from the game, and the sooner the better.
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how would allowing feds to build kdf starbases solve the false team dilemma or otherwise help the kdf?
the kdf doesnt need the help of feds to build starbases. i can think of a dozen orgs with one or more t5 kdf starbases as it is. we also manage to team, using kdf-centric channels and the like.
more evidence that nonkdf seemingly think they see a problem in the kdf and they have the answer. and of course that answer includes allowing them to nation-build kdf-side without needing to even log into the faction.
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