You're not listening. Our KDF-allied RRF fleet is 7 levels higher than our Fed-allied RRF fleet. Obviously, we've been playing quite a lot on KDF-side. We also had an Academy fleet allied with the KDF before we made our Fed-allied fleet (the Academy is still in existence and about the same level as the Fed-allied fleet). We made our KDF-allied fleets first, and our main KDF-allied fleet is the higher level one of the bunch.
oh. well why did you give each fleet a nearly identical name?
this doesnt change my opinion though.
Because they're the same organization forced into division by coding lazily instead of taking the time and going to the effort to break the false dilemma. And it doesn't change your opinion even though I've shown you "there is some x such that x is S and x is P"? Because the opposite absolute is what you've been arguing from, and I've disproven it by providing a single example (because that's all it takes).
Nobody is asking for special consideration (and even if you did walk 50 miles in the snow with no shoes uphill both ways going to/coming from school, progress does not require everyone else to do likewise). We have a new mechanic coming down the pipeline, and my aim is, as it has been since LoR came out, to promote more equity for the RRF, hence I'm asking for this. Because, ultimately, we are not KDF or Fed. We're RRF. And we're tired of being treated as third-class citizens.
if a fleet is primarily focused in faction B, then their starbase progression should reflect that. i dont see why anyone should be afforded the ability to facilitate cross-faction donations based on their toons race... just do like the rest of us and accept that one starbase will always finish before the other.
It's not a race. It's a faction (with three "races," counting "Alien" as a single race) which is forced into a situation in which it is artificially divided.
the worst thing that can come out of cross-faction armadas is a scenario that sees scores of new t5 kdf starbases built by feds and populated by their doffing alts. the player that chooses kdf thus enters into a world where all kdf fleets look active and are advertised as active, yet are virtual ghost towns. as it stands today, if a player sees a t4 or t5 kdf kdf fleet, he can be assured he is getting whats advertised on the tin.
cross-faction donations may be great for a fed fleet. the get fleet credit sources and the opportunity to brag about having a t5 kdf starbase... but its so bad for the kdf faction.
No, you're making an unwarranted assumption (actually more than one).
You still haven't addressed the point I've made twice now, about how little it costs to buy stuff from fleet stores vs how much it costs to level a fleet, nor why anyone with free access to a maxed-out fleet would bother to level their own fleet. "Oh, go look at thread and see testimonies." You ask me to trust anecdotal evidence? Seriously? This is not a court of law, where witness testimony counts for something. I'm asking for logic, not anecdotes.
the logic of the argument has been posted numerous times, and lacking access to cryptics metrics, anecdotal evidence is all anyone can provide. but lets look at just a couple of facts, and then extrapolate from there:
1. members need fleet credit to spend at higher holdings
2. members need provisions to spend at higher holdings
3. credits and provisions are generated at their own fleet.
members will actually work harder to generate credit and provisions if they know they have something to spend it on. this has made itself clear for two years of base-inviting. if there was no system to allow members of lower-tiered fleets to gain holding access, i have no doubt members would leave those fleets in droves looking for higher tiered holdings. ive seen it happen before.
youre also downplaying the amount of credit needed to fully kit out a toon. dont look merely at ship consoles and the like. also look at the credit costs associated with less obvious purchases like doffs, active doff roster spots, uniforms, active doff project slots, etc.
On the contrary, I've spent far more on a single fleet than I have on a single character who already has the max number of ships allowed (I cannot buy any more ship slots with the current cap, and I have all the ship slots I am allowed filled), all outfitted separately. You're being unrealistic to claim that the cost of outfitting a character is comparable to the cost of leveling a fleet.
Unification of the "factions" is the only worthwhile step at this point. We will never get faction exclusive content again (Geko said so), so keeping the infamous "18%" of the players separate like that forever doesn't lead anywhere. Yes, if you choose so all fleet assets should be shared, maybe and probably short of sharing fleet ships and uniforms cross-faction - but elite weapons (which is the only exclusive thing I think) why not? Yes, full access to fleets and stores. You can choose to not join an "armada" with another faction and keep it separate, after all - but there is literally nothing in the game left warranting two separate factions. And, as Protogoth pointed out, Romulans would also make more sense this way as they will probably never be more than a "RP-faction" anyway.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
at the end of the day my opinion boils down to this: leveling a starbase should require you to actually login and donate from the same faction.
would it be great if a kdf and fed fleet could somehow indicate they are part of the same overall whole? sure. that would be pretty great. i would love to have some sort of overarching structure that demonstrates that this is who we are, and these are all our fleet in both factions. but cross-faction donations is a show-stopper for me.
luckily for the feddies the poll results show something like the 18% hey.... and we all know how that always ends.
At least I perfectly understand that notion. I am a "canon-hog" and it really doesn't sit well with me to mingle everything into one form, Starfleet with disruptors running all over Qo'Nos etc. - but the sad truth, at least for me, is that STO is not "that game". If we would still have separate factions with separate content and only rare isntances of cross-faction interaction aside from PvP that would make sense I would agree. But STO isn't "that game" - we have read crystal clear statements that we will never ever move to faction esclusiveness anymore. Maybe in STO II.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
At least I perfectly understand that notion. I am a "canon-hog" and it really doesn't sit well with me to mingle everything into one form, Starfleet with disruptors running all over Qo'Nos etc. - but the sad truth, at least for me, is that STO is not "that game". If we would still have separate factions with separate content and only rare isntances of cross-faction interaction aside from PvP that would make sense I would agree. But STO isn't "that game" - we have read crystal clear statements that we will never ever move to faction esclusiveness anymore. Maybe in STO II.
so you want to just throw in the towel and see one of the very last kdf elements given away?
i can see why feds would be eager to see cross-faction donations. i think they generally have less of a factional identity. in a feds eyes, this is star trek and he is a captain. i think its not quite the same red-side. this is star trek, i am kdf, and i am a captain. maining kdf toons you are constantly reminded that you are the afterthought faction, always get the worst end of the faction-tech trades, receive little dev attention, and are vastly underrepresented in every aspect of sto. everything you ever had that was great is taken away and given to the feds, and you get little in return. this runs the entire breadth of sto, from ship classes, consoles, even pvp itself- we have no traits to compete.
ive spent 95% of my time in sto as kdf. i am part of a fleet org that has had to really fight the odds to remain viable, doing so with zero fed mojo to feed our ranks. despite this we have still been able to level a fed fleet, cant feds bother to do likewise?
sorry, but this demand for fed-built kdf starbases feels like a total assault against the kdf and myself. its clearly another case of feds seeing something that they know full well the majority of them cant 'just have'. they dont want to actually log in kdf to build the fleet and are looking for papa cryptic to once again do what it always does.
Quite frankly the Starfleet/KDF divide has been meaningless in this game since the Klingon War arc ended. Barring "The Tribble with Klingons", literally ever single time after that where the two sides meet, they're working together against common foes.
Lmao! This. Exactly. Seems like after the Klingon arc everyone was just posturing for appearance sake. Not to mention lazy on the DEVs part.
Definitely needed for Romulan fleets. The Republic is allied with both the Feds and the KDF, so keeping two sets of Republic Romulans locked out from each other is pointless.
We're all officially under the same banner as the Delta Alliance, so the old divide is completely gone.
This as well. Agreed. Seems to me the "Delta Alliance" is just alliances allying with each other redundancies abound xD
As far as I'm concerned. We have 1 full faction (FED) and 2 half-factions (KDF & RRF) with a 4th half-faction on the way (Cardassian Union, personally I was hoping for Ferengi Alliance).
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.
so you want to just throw in the towel and see one of the very last kdf elements given away? (...)
If that is your question my answer would be either "Yes" or "I don't really care".
I do not hold any emotions for this game, I just play a game. I play each faction, each class and all races from Star Trek I liked and found interesting and as far as I am concerned all players are in it together, there is no "us" and "them". All that is left is some kind of forum-rp pretending we would play a two faction MMO with distinct uniqueness between the actions and a different gameplay experience. As you have pointed out yourself, though, this is not the case. Both factions are basically equal only the visuals differ and new toys only come in one colour anyway. If STO was still a game that would follow canon and consistency to a degree I would still play both factions but would wholeheartedly support any effort of keeping two distinct experiences. STO, however, never tried to do something like that except in lip service and the KDF was conceptualized as a PvP faction - back in the days there was just Starfleet/Fed gameplay and at lvl 20 you unlocked a Klingon character as a bonus gimmick.
If we would play DAOC in spae with two (three) realms with their own storylines which still influence all the others, withunique ships, tactics, places and special occasions where all join together I would support that wholeheartedly, making the best out of my Klingons, Starfleet and/or Romulan characters. But that's STO. Its a play mat where we all come together and push our little starships over the carpet, showing off how we painted them but other than that there is no rhyme or reason to anything, be it in-game lore or gameplay.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
At least I perfectly understand that notion. I am a "canon-hog" and it really doesn't sit well with me to mingle everything into one form, Starfleet with disruptors running all over Qo'Nos etc. - but the sad truth, at least for me, is that STO is not "that game". If we would still have separate factions with separate content and only rare isntances of cross-faction interaction aside from PvP that would make sense I would agree. But STO isn't "that game" - we have read crystal clear statements that we will never ever move to faction esclusiveness anymore. Maybe in STO II.
so you want to just throw in the towel and see one of the very last kdf elements given away?
I am afraid you're still mostly arguing a strawman.
Being able to build cross-faction Armadas does still not automaticaly mean that Fed players can access a KDF Starbase and buy Elite Disruptors or whatever. It just means that Starfleet Fed or Romulan Fed-Aligned fleet members can support a KDF Fleet. Or KDF or KDF-Aligned fleet members can support a FED Fleet. It means that fleets that have build sister fleets on the other faction can show their affiliation. It means that fleets that are friendly with each other can show their alliance.
That is NOT stealing anything from the KDF, it's not giving any faction-unique stuff to another faction.
Giving non-KDF(-aligned) characters access to KDF Starbases or non-FED(-aligned) characters access to the Fed Starbase is not something that is required for cross-faction armadas to work.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
At least I perfectly understand that notion. I am a "canon-hog" and it really doesn't sit well with me to mingle everything into one form, Starfleet with disruptors running all over Qo'Nos etc. - but the sad truth, at least for me, is that STO is not "that game". If we would still have separate factions with separate content and only rare isntances of cross-faction interaction aside from PvP that would make sense I would agree. But STO isn't "that game" - we have read crystal clear statements that we will never ever move to faction esclusiveness anymore. Maybe in STO II.
so you want to just throw in the towel and see one of the very last kdf elements given away?
i can see why feds would be eager to see cross-faction donations. i think they generally have less of a factional identity. in a feds eyes, this is star trek and he is a captain. i think its not quite the same red-side. this is star trek, i am kdf, and i am a captain. maining kdf toons you are constantly reminded that you are the afterthought faction, always get the worst end of the faction-tech trades, receive little dev attention, and are vastly underrepresented in every aspect of sto. everything you ever had that was great is taken away and given to the feds, and you get little in return. this runs the entire breadth of sto, from ship classes, consoles, even pvp itself- we have no traits to compete.
ive spent 95% of my time in sto as kdf. i am part of a fleet org that has had to really fight the odds to remain viable, doing so with zero fed mojo to feed our ranks. despite this we have still been able to level a fed fleet, cant feds bother to do likewise?
sorry, but this demand for fed-built kdf starbases feels like a total assault against the kdf and myself. its clearly another case of feds seeing something that they know full well the majority of them cant 'just have'. they dont want to actually log in kdf to build the fleet and are looking for papa cryptic to once again do what it always does.
The whole point is that it's NOT just "red vs blue" anymore (and never really was). Stop the false dilemma. It's detrimental to society and minds. Almost every question has at least three answers. I'm neither red nor blue; I'm green, and proud of that distinction. Unfortunately, the Devs didn't see fit to make the distinction sufficient for it to be more than identity, and instead insisted on maintaining the false dilemma. I don't want to be Fed or KDF. I want to be Romulan.
speaking of strawmen, why do people keep acting as if my issue is elite disruptor access for feds?
I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
I thought it was more of a 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.
Person A: "No Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person B: "But my Klingon would accept help building fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Basically, it comes down to how you want to RP connections between the factions. You should be allowed to work with your friends, or refuse their help entirely, regardless of faction. And in the case of our Romulan allies, allowing multi-faction assistance would go a long way toward toward overcoming the split-faction problems Cryptic forced them into.
I'll set a strawman up that someone doesn't want a certain soup kitchen front to lose relevancy with others getting access to T5 stuff on the KDF side.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
speaking of strawmen, why do people keep acting as if my issue is elite disruptor access for feds?
I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
i have not made gear access the crux of my argument. i dont even recall addressing it, but if i did it was only in passing.
I thought it was more of a 'No true Scotsman' fallacy.
Person A: "No Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person B: "But my Klingon would accept help building fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Basically, it comes down to how you want to RP connections between the factions. You should be allowed to work with your friends, or refuse their help entirely, regardless of faction. And in the case of our Romulan allies, allowing multi-faction assistance would go a long way toward toward overcoming the split-faction problems Cryptic forced them into.
i dont believe i have done that explicitly, but there is definitely a difference between somebody that is full time kdf and somebody who rarely logs in kdf or only does so to farm dilithium. undoubtedly there are 'real kdf'.
...and, as it happens, the full-time kdf i have talked to in-game about this have generally been far less supportive of the idea than the people in this thread.
I like how anyone that supports cross faction armadas is a 'fed' in his book. This amuses me, I have 2 fed alts that get minimal play time, one hasn't even made it out of the cardi arc. I have 4 Romulan characters, 2 aligned to each faction and I have not been to ESD or Qo'nos with any of them except for the "Blood of the Ancients" mission in more than 6months, and I only use Rom DOFF/BOFF unless there is no option to, so I'm not even makin use of the 'allied' part of the equation. My Gorn and Ferasan haven't been to Qo'nos in about that long either now that I think about it but at least those 2 get a bit of play time daily, 3 of my roms only get weekly play.
I like how anyone that supports cross faction armadas is a 'fed' in his book. This amuses me, I have 2 fed alts that get minimal play time, one hasn't even made it out of the cardi arc. I have 4 Romulan characters, 2 aligned to each faction and I have not been to ESD or Qo'nos with any of them except for the "Blood of the Ancients" mission in more than 6months, and I only use Rom DOFF/BOFF unless there is no option to, so I'm not even makin use of the 'allied' part of the equation. My Gorn and Ferasan haven't been to Qo'nos in about that long either now that I think about it but at least those 2 get a bit of play time daily, 3 of my roms only get weekly play.
so i ask again: if youre spending so much time logged in kdf-side, why do you need to donate to the fleet using your fed (romulan or not, a fed is a fed)?
speaking of strawmen, why do people keep acting as if my issue is elite disruptor access for feds?
I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
i have not made gear access the crux of my argument. i dont even recall addressing it, but if i did it was only in passing.
Pretty sure you've mentioned "elite fleet disruptors," explicitly, more than once in the course of this discussion.
so i ask again: if youre spending so much time logged in kdf-side, why do you need to donate to the fleet using your fed (romulan or not, a fed is a fed)?
I don't. I need to donate to the fed half of our fleet because its far less active and Rising Night is nearly done with its fleet projects. We should be done before the new holding drops I think, and unlike you, we see both halves as the same fleet, artificially divided by poor game mechanics.
speaking of strawmen, why do people keep acting as if my issue is elite disruptor access for feds?
I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
i have not made gear access the crux of my argument. i dont even recall addressing it, but if i did it was only in passing.
Pretty sure you've mentioned "elite fleet disruptors," explicitly, more than once in the course of this discussion.
i just read back, and i didnt mention them a single time.
whos not listening now?
I like how anyone that supports cross faction armadas is a 'fed' in his book. This amuses me, I have 2 fed alts that get minimal play time, one hasn't even made it out of the cardi arc. I have 4 Romulan characters, 2 aligned to each faction and I have not been to ESD or Qo'nos with any of them except for the "Blood of the Ancients" mission in more than 6months, and I only use Rom DOFF/BOFF unless there is no option to, so I'm not even makin use of the 'allied' part of the equation. My Gorn and Ferasan haven't been to Qo'nos in about that long either now that I think about it but at least those 2 get a bit of play time daily, 3 of my roms only get weekly play.
so i ask again: if youre spending so much time logged in kdf-side, why do you need to donate to the fleet using your fed (romulan or not, a fed is a fed)?
Some of us want to donate to our Fed fleets from the KDF side, as has been rather plain for some time now to anyone who bothered to listen to what the other side of the argument is.
And Romulans are Romulans, not Feds, and not Klinks. Get that through your head right now and you might actually get some of the point of this, and in particular why Kodachi and I are both saying Yes to cross-faction armadas. Alliance is not "alignment," as so many in these fora and in-game have somehow convoluted the notion. I am not "Fed-aligned" nor am I "KDF-aligned" on any of my RRF characters. I am "Fed-allied" on some of them, and "KDF-allied" on others.
Out of my 10 characters, six are Romulan, two are Fed (one is a Vulcan who is actually a Romulan spy and was always intended to be such from when I first made her back in the day when we had to make a Fed toon before we could make a KDF toon; the other is an Alien whose ancestry is mostly Romulan), and two are KDF (one is an Orion; the other is an Orion who is actually a Romulan spy and was always intended to be such when I made her as soon as I had my Vulcan high enough level to make a KDF character). Six of my ten characters are neither KDF nor Fed, but RRF, regardless of their alliance with one or the other (and for the record, the alliances are balanced, three Fed-allied, three KDF-allied).
Three-fifths of my characters don't give a rat's bottom about your hatred of the Feds, nor their hatred of you, and are more likely to regard both the UFP and the Klingon Empire as a pair of ill-tempered children fighting over a pail in a sandbox and trying to drag the RRF into it on one side or the other, which is why we made you both kiss and make up. Maybe we should just take the pail away from both of you and let you keep fighting over the grains of sand.
speaking of strawmen, why do people keep acting as if my issue is elite disruptor access for feds?
I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
i have not made gear access the crux of my argument. i dont even recall addressing it, but if i did it was only in passing.
Pretty sure you've mentioned "elite fleet disruptors," explicitly, more than once in the course of this discussion.
i just read back, and i didnt mention them a single time.
whos not listening now?
If you didn't mention them here, you mentioned them in the thread that this thread grew out of.
I like how anyone that supports cross faction armadas is a 'fed' in his book. This amuses me, I have 2 fed alts that get minimal play time, one hasn't even made it out of the cardi arc. I have 4 Romulan characters, 2 aligned to each faction and I have not been to ESD or Qo'nos with any of them except for the "Blood of the Ancients" mission in more than 6months, and I only use Rom DOFF/BOFF unless there is no option to, so I'm not even makin use of the 'allied' part of the equation. My Gorn and Ferasan haven't been to Qo'nos in about that long either now that I think about it but at least those 2 get a bit of play time daily, 3 of my roms only get weekly play.
so i ask again: if youre spending so much time logged in kdf-side, why do you need to donate to the fleet using your fed (romulan or not, a fed is a fed)?
Did it occur to you that primary KDF players may want to support their Fed sister fleet, and the primary FED players want to support their KDF sister fleet?
Or that people that can't decide on their favorite faction just want to have all the options?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Did it occur to you that primary KDF players may want to support their Fed sister fleet, and the primary FED players want to support their KDF sister fleet?
Or that people that can't decide on their favorite faction just want to have all the options?
SUCH BLASPHEMY!!! /sarcasm
heh if only bubbaloo understood how rare it is for proto and I to be on the same side of an argument... he/she/it might start to clue in
Did it occur to you that primary KDF players may want to support their Fed sister fleet, and the primary FED players want to support their KDF sister fleet?
Or that people that can't decide on their favorite faction just want to have all the options?
I know that was to somebody else, and I hate it whenever I end up agreeing with something in the least with those folks; but that was pretty much my complaint, no?
M. Night should make a sequel to The Happening...The Entitling. Cause it's hard not to picture it as some part of overall immune response from the planet to the threat posed by humans.
It's just another people want everything, don't want to have to choose...and...it's sickening with this particular generation.
I disagree there virusdancer... if we had 3 actual factions and content being developed for all 3, I don't think we'd have this issue even being given serious thought.. We do not, and the developers have gone out of their way in comments and in game to make sure we all know they only want 1 faction in game.
Stop assuming that people don't actually play on both sides. We do. You do as well, or at least you have a Fed-side fleet which you were hawking along with your KDF-side fleet in the thread about lining up for armada alliances. Yeah, they're both T5 Starbases. That's not relevant. Apparently even in your own experience there are other people who actually play on both sides. THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARMADA SYSTEM is to help other fleets, not to insulate elite fleets.
the difference is that i am willing to login fedside and do what i need to do to get the fleet to progress, even though i dont enjoy fed. what im not doing is demanding some sort of mechanism that will allow me a t5 fed starbase without logging in fed-side.
As far as I understand it, you don't get access to the starbase of a fleet your allied with unless invited, which isn't possible between factions.
So I don't see the issue with Feds supporting KDF starbases or vice versa. Supporting wouldn't give you ACCESS to them or anything from them. It would just let you dump resources into them, like foreign aid.
If the game tech works like I THINK it does, what you would have IF they enabled and implemented it is this:
You could support bases (which you probably couldn't visit). They might be able to enable secondary holding visiting like fleet spires, dilithium mine, etc. between factions IF they enabled cross faction teaming although the starbase itself would probably need to remain off limits.
I may have managed to get a Fed to Qo'noS and a Klingon to ESD. What I have found is that Qo'noS NPCs are hostile to Feds. New/Current ESD NPCs are NOT hostile to Klingon players. Starbase NPCs are a mix. Many vendors are faction locked. Work COULD be done into cross faction teaming and prepping bases for cross-faction visitors although it'd be harder for locations with a ship vendor like the Embassy or Starbase.
But NONE of that is necessary for the Armada system, which is about dumping resources in or getting resources dumped in. Being able to ally fleets doesn't have anything to do with sharing unlocks or even map access. It has to do with sharing input contributions and getting new buffs off of contributing to a fleet whose rewards you won't get access to for unlocking.
Did it occur to you that primary KDF players may want to support their Fed sister fleet, and the primary FED players want to support their KDF sister fleet?
Or that people that can't decide on their favorite faction just want to have all the options?
I know that was to somebody else, and I hate it whenever I end up agreeing with something in the least with those folks; but that was pretty much my complaint, no?
M. Night should make a sequel to The Happening...The Entitling. Cause it's hard not to picture it as some part of overall immune response from the planet to the threat posed by humans.
It's just another people want everything, don't want to have to choose...and...it's sickening with this particular generation.
There is no reason I should "have to" choose between two options in a false dilemma when there is a third option that the false dilemma wants to ignore.
And I'm pretty sure I'm older than you. I remember TOS before it was in reruns. Do you? If you want to toss Argumentum ad Hominem around, I can do it better than you can. And before you claim that you didn't engage in ad Hominem, yeah, you did. Your little twist at the end of that there about generations was turning the attack from the position of the opposition to the persons of the opposition. That is the very definition of Argumentum ad Hominem.
But you don't even think the Romulan faction should exist at all, and you are on record as having voted as such in another recent thread with a public poll, so I feel entirely justified in dismissing most anything you have to say on this question, since you embrace the very false dilemma which I repudiate.
I disagree there virusdancer... if we had 3 actual factions and content being developed for all 3, I don't think we'd have this issue even being given serious thought.. We do not, and the developers have gone out of their way in comments and in game to make sure we all know they only want 1 faction in game.
I think they are two separate issues. There are some folks that are disillusioned by the way that the game treated factions long before the Romulans were ever hinted at. There was little surprise with how the Romulans turned out, with some folks calling them a fraction and Cryptic vehemently denying that. They vehemently denied that the KDF weren't a full faction as well. So there are definitely going to be those folks.
They're the finally throwing in the towel folks...folks that had previously posted strongly in the other direction, that have basically just given up.
But this thread is overflowing with the folks that have always strongly posted in a direction of not having to make any choices and simply having everything.
There's a difference between the disheartened and those with entitlement issues...
edit: Hate it showing a post edit when I catch a typo fast...meh.
Im one of those that calls romulans a fraction Im also quite well aware that KDF got the shaft before romulans were hinted at, and since. Simple fact is the devs dont want factions or fractions and everything they have said and done for quite some time has aimed the game at this. If someone is going to pork you in the posterior without consent of course they will vehemently deny their intention to do so. The problem here is, cryptic is in the middle of the deed and still denying they're doing it.
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Because they're the same organization forced into division by coding lazily instead of taking the time and going to the effort to break the false dilemma. And it doesn't change your opinion even though I've shown you "there is some x such that x is S and x is P"? Because the opposite absolute is what you've been arguing from, and I've disproven it by providing a single example (because that's all it takes).
It's not a race. It's a faction (with three "races," counting "Alien" as a single race) which is forced into a situation in which it is artificially divided.
No, you're making an unwarranted assumption (actually more than one).
On the contrary, I've spent far more on a single fleet than I have on a single character who already has the max number of ships allowed (I cannot buy any more ship slots with the current cap, and I have all the ship slots I am allowed filled), all outfitted separately. You're being unrealistic to claim that the cost of outfitting a character is comparable to the cost of leveling a fleet.
Let's not, since I've already noted that I won't accept that as valid.
Unification of the "factions" is the only worthwhile step at this point. We will never get faction exclusive content again (Geko said so), so keeping the infamous "18%" of the players separate like that forever doesn't lead anywhere. Yes, if you choose so all fleet assets should be shared, maybe and probably short of sharing fleet ships and uniforms cross-faction - but elite weapons (which is the only exclusive thing I think) why not? Yes, full access to fleets and stores. You can choose to not join an "armada" with another faction and keep it separate, after all - but there is literally nothing in the game left warranting two separate factions. And, as Protogoth pointed out, Romulans would also make more sense this way as they will probably never be more than a "RP-faction" anyway.
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would it be great if a kdf and fed fleet could somehow indicate they are part of the same overall whole? sure. that would be pretty great. i would love to have some sort of overarching structure that demonstrates that this is who we are, and these are all our fleet in both factions. but cross-faction donations is a show-stopper for me.
luckily for the feddies the poll results show something like the 18% hey.... and we all know how that always ends.
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i can see why feds would be eager to see cross-faction donations. i think they generally have less of a factional identity. in a feds eyes, this is star trek and he is a captain. i think its not quite the same red-side. this is star trek, i am kdf, and i am a captain. maining kdf toons you are constantly reminded that you are the afterthought faction, always get the worst end of the faction-tech trades, receive little dev attention, and are vastly underrepresented in every aspect of sto. everything you ever had that was great is taken away and given to the feds, and you get little in return. this runs the entire breadth of sto, from ship classes, consoles, even pvp itself- we have no traits to compete.
ive spent 95% of my time in sto as kdf. i am part of a fleet org that has had to really fight the odds to remain viable, doing so with zero fed mojo to feed our ranks. despite this we have still been able to level a fed fleet, cant feds bother to do likewise?
sorry, but this demand for fed-built kdf starbases feels like a total assault against the kdf and myself. its clearly another case of feds seeing something that they know full well the majority of them cant 'just have'. they dont want to actually log in kdf to build the fleet and are looking for papa cryptic to once again do what it always does.
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Lmao! This. Exactly. Seems like after the Klingon arc everyone was just posturing for appearance sake. Not to mention lazy on the DEVs part.
This as well. Agreed. Seems to me the "Delta Alliance" is just alliances allying with each other redundancies abound xD
As far as I'm concerned. We have 1 full faction (FED) and 2 half-factions (KDF & RRF) with a 4th half-faction on the way (Cardassian Union, personally I was hoping for Ferengi Alliance).
The first Belfast was commanded by Captain Ve'Kal Shon until its destruction in 2409. A new ship was commissioned bearing the same name and registry as special dispensation to then newly promoted Captain Edward XIII for his pivotal role during the renewed Dominion War.
If that is your question my answer would be either "Yes" or "I don't really care".
I do not hold any emotions for this game, I just play a game. I play each faction, each class and all races from Star Trek I liked and found interesting and as far as I am concerned all players are in it together, there is no "us" and "them". All that is left is some kind of forum-rp pretending we would play a two faction MMO with distinct uniqueness between the actions and a different gameplay experience. As you have pointed out yourself, though, this is not the case. Both factions are basically equal only the visuals differ and new toys only come in one colour anyway. If STO was still a game that would follow canon and consistency to a degree I would still play both factions but would wholeheartedly support any effort of keeping two distinct experiences. STO, however, never tried to do something like that except in lip service and the KDF was conceptualized as a PvP faction - back in the days there was just Starfleet/Fed gameplay and at lvl 20 you unlocked a Klingon character as a bonus gimmick.
If we would play DAOC in spae with two (three) realms with their own storylines which still influence all the others, withunique ships, tactics, places and special occasions where all join together I would support that wholeheartedly, making the best out of my Klingons, Starfleet and/or Romulan characters. But that's STO. Its a play mat where we all come together and push our little starships over the carpet, showing off how we painted them but other than that there is no rhyme or reason to anything, be it in-game lore or gameplay.
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Being able to build cross-faction Armadas does still not automaticaly mean that Fed players can access a KDF Starbase and buy Elite Disruptors or whatever. It just means that Starfleet Fed or Romulan Fed-Aligned fleet members can support a KDF Fleet. Or KDF or KDF-Aligned fleet members can support a FED Fleet. It means that fleets that have build sister fleets on the other faction can show their affiliation. It means that fleets that are friendly with each other can show their alliance.
That is NOT stealing anything from the KDF, it's not giving any faction-unique stuff to another faction.
Giving non-KDF(-aligned) characters access to KDF Starbases or non-FED(-aligned) characters access to the Fed Starbase is not something that is required for cross-faction armadas to work.
The whole point is that it's NOT just "red vs blue" anymore (and never really was). Stop the false dilemma. It's detrimental to society and minds. Almost every question has at least three answers. I'm neither red nor blue; I'm green, and proud of that distinction. Unfortunately, the Devs didn't see fit to make the distinction sufficient for it to be more than identity, and instead insisted on maintaining the false dilemma. I don't want to be Fed or KDF. I want to be Romulan.
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I dunno, maybe because you yourself used that as an excuse for objecting? It's only a straw man if it hasn't been included in your reasons for your position and is instead a caricature of your position.
Person A: "No Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person B: "But my Klingon would accept help building fleet holdings from allied factions."
Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Klingon accepts help building their fleet holdings from allied factions."
Basically, it comes down to how you want to RP connections between the factions. You should be allowed to work with your friends, or refuse their help entirely, regardless of faction. And in the case of our Romulan allies, allowing multi-faction assistance would go a long way toward toward overcoming the split-faction problems Cryptic forced them into.
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i dont believe i have done that explicitly, but there is definitely a difference between somebody that is full time kdf and somebody who rarely logs in kdf or only does so to farm dilithium. undoubtedly there are 'real kdf'.
...and, as it happens, the full-time kdf i have talked to in-game about this have generally been far less supportive of the idea than the people in this thread.
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so i ask again: if youre spending so much time logged in kdf-side, why do you need to donate to the fleet using your fed (romulan or not, a fed is a fed)?
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Pretty sure you've mentioned "elite fleet disruptors," explicitly, more than once in the course of this discussion.
i just read back, and i didnt mention them a single time.
whos not listening now?
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Some of us want to donate to our Fed fleets from the KDF side, as has been rather plain for some time now to anyone who bothered to listen to what the other side of the argument is.
And Romulans are Romulans, not Feds, and not Klinks. Get that through your head right now and you might actually get some of the point of this, and in particular why Kodachi and I are both saying Yes to cross-faction armadas. Alliance is not "alignment," as so many in these fora and in-game have somehow convoluted the notion. I am not "Fed-aligned" nor am I "KDF-aligned" on any of my RRF characters. I am "Fed-allied" on some of them, and "KDF-allied" on others.
Out of my 10 characters, six are Romulan, two are Fed (one is a Vulcan who is actually a Romulan spy and was always intended to be such from when I first made her back in the day when we had to make a Fed toon before we could make a KDF toon; the other is an Alien whose ancestry is mostly Romulan), and two are KDF (one is an Orion; the other is an Orion who is actually a Romulan spy and was always intended to be such when I made her as soon as I had my Vulcan high enough level to make a KDF character). Six of my ten characters are neither KDF nor Fed, but RRF, regardless of their alliance with one or the other (and for the record, the alliances are balanced, three Fed-allied, three KDF-allied).
Three-fifths of my characters don't give a rat's bottom about your hatred of the Feds, nor their hatred of you, and are more likely to regard both the UFP and the Klingon Empire as a pair of ill-tempered children fighting over a pail in a sandbox and trying to drag the RRF into it on one side or the other, which is why we made you both kiss and make up. Maybe we should just take the pail away from both of you and let you keep fighting over the grains of sand.
If you didn't mention them here, you mentioned them in the thread that this thread grew out of.
Did it occur to you that primary KDF players may want to support their Fed sister fleet, and the primary FED players want to support their KDF sister fleet?
Or that people that can't decide on their favorite faction just want to have all the options?
heh if only bubbaloo understood how rare it is for proto and I to be on the same side of an argument... he/she/it might start to clue in
I know that was to somebody else, and I hate it whenever I end up agreeing with something in the least with those folks; but that was pretty much my complaint, no?
It's just another people want everything, don't want to have to choose...and...it's sickening with this particular generation.
As far as I understand it, you don't get access to the starbase of a fleet your allied with unless invited, which isn't possible between factions.
So I don't see the issue with Feds supporting KDF starbases or vice versa. Supporting wouldn't give you ACCESS to them or anything from them. It would just let you dump resources into them, like foreign aid.
If the game tech works like I THINK it does, what you would have IF they enabled and implemented it is this:
You could support bases (which you probably couldn't visit). They might be able to enable secondary holding visiting like fleet spires, dilithium mine, etc. between factions IF they enabled cross faction teaming although the starbase itself would probably need to remain off limits.
I may have managed to get a Fed to Qo'noS and a Klingon to ESD. What I have found is that Qo'noS NPCs are hostile to Feds. New/Current ESD NPCs are NOT hostile to Klingon players. Starbase NPCs are a mix. Many vendors are faction locked. Work COULD be done into cross faction teaming and prepping bases for cross-faction visitors although it'd be harder for locations with a ship vendor like the Embassy or Starbase.
But NONE of that is necessary for the Armada system, which is about dumping resources in or getting resources dumped in. Being able to ally fleets doesn't have anything to do with sharing unlocks or even map access. It has to do with sharing input contributions and getting new buffs off of contributing to a fleet whose rewards you won't get access to for unlocking.
There is no reason I should "have to" choose between two options in a false dilemma when there is a third option that the false dilemma wants to ignore.
And I'm pretty sure I'm older than you. I remember TOS before it was in reruns. Do you? If you want to toss Argumentum ad Hominem around, I can do it better than you can. And before you claim that you didn't engage in ad Hominem, yeah, you did. Your little twist at the end of that there about generations was turning the attack from the position of the opposition to the persons of the opposition. That is the very definition of Argumentum ad Hominem.
But you don't even think the Romulan faction should exist at all, and you are on record as having voted as such in another recent thread with a public poll, so I feel entirely justified in dismissing most anything you have to say on this question, since you embrace the very false dilemma which I repudiate.
I think they are two separate issues. There are some folks that are disillusioned by the way that the game treated factions long before the Romulans were ever hinted at. There was little surprise with how the Romulans turned out, with some folks calling them a fraction and Cryptic vehemently denying that. They vehemently denied that the KDF weren't a full faction as well. So there are definitely going to be those folks.
They're the finally throwing in the towel folks...folks that had previously posted strongly in the other direction, that have basically just given up.
But this thread is overflowing with the folks that have always strongly posted in a direction of not having to make any choices and simply having everything.
There's a difference between the disheartened and those with entitlement issues...
edit: Hate it showing a post edit when I catch a typo fast...meh.